Tavern on the Meta

9:00 AM

That part of the CoC and the problems it tries to address are now forever tainted with the mess they made of rolling it out

nobody is viewing this in a vacuum anymore

PM 2Ring

The Monica debacle ensured that there was a critical mass of users on MSE, so when the CoC & FAQ were dropped, it exploded. Without having been primed by Monica's dismissal, there still would have been some pushback, but not as severe and emotion-charged.

Autar

The whole ads thing also brought a lot of users to meta.

Sébastien Renauld

It also doesn't help that the CoC is being overapplied, though. Seen multiple cases of expressions that should've been removed due to noise, get edited instead due to CoC because of colloquialisms

as in, the entire sentence should've been removed, not just the "man", "dude", whatever it is

PM 2Ring

The FAQ should not have been posted as a done deal. People felt that they were deceived yet again - they were expecting to have some community input on the interpretation of the CoC. IOW, the FAQ should have developed organically as actual Frequently Asked Questions. Not even the mods had input on the FAQ!

Sébastien Renauld

@PM2Ring Didn't they? I remember seeing that they had seen it earlier and contributed to it

obviously, "contribution" is vague. Signing at the back of a page is technically "contributing"

Andras Deak

9:07 AM

@PM2Ring People were gravely mistaken then; one of the first feedback we a news site got was "the CoC is not up for debate"

Magisch

mods had input on the actual coc change, the 2 lines or so that were slightly altered

the FAQ was unknown to mods

Nothing is up to debate lately

Andras Deak

for what it's worth with a CoC I could even understand

Sébastien Renauld

Community management BTW

Andras Deak

but that would need for the CoC and its enforcement to be right

Sébastien Renauld

@AndrasDeak Can you understand all the fine print of the new CoC? I can't, and I've been digging into the exact terms for a bit

Andras Deak

9:08 AM

If you know you're right then allowing debate only opens the gate for those who you want to use it on.

Magisch

dont put that on the Cms, they probably like this whole situation even less then you do

Sébastien Renauld

the global message is good; but there's so many grey areas

@Magisch I wasn't throwing at the CMs, I was throwing at how SE employees are doing community management instead of the CM team

Andras Deak

CMs are also SE employees

PM 2Ring

@SébastienRenauld The mods saw the CoC & gave input. It's not clear if, or to what extent, their feedback affected the final published form of the CoC, but I got the impression it wasn't much. However, the FAQ was a surprise. One mod described being blindsided by the FAQ.

Sébastien Renauld

The FAQ had some insane things into it; I'm still surprised nobody saw the reading about "encouraged" being perfect grounds for a third-party to step in, and I'm glad Cesar clarified that one

Journeyman Geek

9:10 AM

@PM2Ring I linked what aza said about it

Best I can do. I don't know much about it

Magisch

I feel like we're at a point where SE management has written all of us off as problematic and not worth listening to

Sébastien Renauld

Hold on a second

Are we throwing an input out just based on where it comes from vs. actually reading it?

Magisch

When that happens there's usually no way out of it and nothing left to do except use market forces to bring a new company to the forefront. I'm not convinced or ready to accept we're there yet, but I fear it.

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld Well that we are is also part of the problem

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek Somebody should step in and derail that; I agree that mumsnet isn't great, but the fact that it isn't doesn't mean their CoC being different should be automatically cast out the window

Journeyman Geek

9:13 AM

@SébastienRenauld most of my flags on these things are custom

PM 2Ring

@JourneymanGeek Ok, that should be adequate.

Journeyman Geek

I provide information for folks to decide rather than bomb it with R/A flags

Sébastien Renauld

I'm going to flag the comments, actually

All this talk of inclusivity yet we can't take a source at face value without bringing up dubious-at-best "context"

Journeyman Geek

I accept there's a certain degree of nuance and potential for drama - but I'm not going to tell people what to do outside "this needs a look"

Which is... actually probably kinda annoying looking at MSE right now...

but its the most balanced thing I can do

Sébastien Renauld

kinda wish the custom flag box was longer

Journeyman Geek

9:17 AM

eh

Its been asked but

its probably worth condensing it down to what it needs

Sébastien Renauld

I could've summarized further but didn't find the terms until 2mins after I hit submit

the word I was looking for was judgement by association

Magisch

judgement by association isn't default invalid though

Sébastien Renauld

It isn't grounds to dismiss something on its own

Calling for a dismissal just because a community has a "reputation" is an overreach

By extension, if you're listening to every "reputation" our there even your own website wouldn't be a good thing to listen to; after all, SO has a reputation too, and it's not necessarily a positive one

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld - the point isn't to absolutely get it removed

It is to make sure folks are aware there's a potential issue and to make a judgement

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek "Citing it here is abhorrent"

StephanS

9:21 AM

do you mean "guilt by association" ?

Sébastien Renauld

That sentence is why I flagged it

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld that's an opinion

I've done the same on another post - with gentler language as opposed to R/A flagging

Sébastien Renauld

I didn't flag it as R/A but custom

and explained clearly what I conveyed here

Magisch

@SébastienRenauld would you argue the same if they cited the breitbart TOS?

Sébastien Renauld

If Breitbart had an attempt at making an inclusive CoC, likely. And for the record, I don't object to the "reputation" part, I object to the "citing it here" part

mumsnet does have a trash reputation, nothing is in question on that

So, yes, if the circumstances were the same (Breitbart coming up with an inclusive take on moderation/CoC), somebody linking it, and somebody else going "citing it is abhorrent" I'd flag custom for the "citing it here is abhorrent" part

Journeyman Geek

9:26 AM

@SébastienRenauld I'm more concerned with the potential for drama over the source

StephanS

is improper citation really that much of an issue? I mean at least it allows you to follow their logic path and explain why it's wrong

Sébastien Renauld

@StephanS Attempted dismissal over it is

StephanS

I think we're arguing from the same side

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld We need a lot more "be patient and realise that others may not know what you know"

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek That's a hairy subject, tbh, and one a ton of people have had problems with throughout history. Count the number of social improvements coming from communist countries that were dismissed for decades because they came from a "communist country"

Journeyman Geek

9:29 AM

@SébastienRenauld in general!

Sébastien Renauld

And yes, we're on the same side @StephanS, I think. I'm arguing that calling a source "abhorrent" in an effort to dismiss it, not on the grounds of the content, but by association, isn't OK

Magisch

serious aspect of all of this. I'm not convinced there's going to be a net gain for inclusivity from this course of action

they have tainted the subject pretty badly

Journeyman Geek

Neither am I

Sébastien Renauld

@Magisch I'm betting on net loss

or rather, collateral damage

StephanS

is the answer at -1?

Journeyman Geek

9:30 AM

And if things work out, it would be in spite of not due to these actions

Sure. Downvoting is good ;p

Magisch

yet nothing will change internally

criticism is already being written off as problematic

no only do they not think they did anything wrong, and problems are the user's fault for complaining

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch If you know a way to convince people internally to change their minds quickly let me know

I'm just trying to weather this storm

Magisch

I have no earthly clue

Sébastien Renauld

@StephanS Vote experiment, remember?

Magisch

I'm still not even convinced it's worth sticking around to see what happens next

Sébastien Renauld

9:33 AM

I'd really like to just go back to SO's roots

Magisch

maybe I too need to make a clean cut and get out before I see any more of the community I loved falling to pieces

3

StephanS

Vote experiment?

Sébastien Renauld

on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, and it certainly doesn't matter whether you're a dog or not if you ask a question

Journeyman Geek

woof?

Sébastien Renauld

@StephanS there was an experiment on vote behavior on the site, not sure if it's over; basically, some people see the minimum votes as 0, others as -1

Journeyman Geek

9:34 AM

@SébastienRenauld unfortunately - that's going to be insanely hard to go back ever again

SO's gotten big enough that people see it as a thing they need to influence to their own ends

Sébastien Renauld

then surely that's what should be worked on

StephanS

@Magisch the shareholders should be worried because of how the company has handled everything, from the outside SE looks like a site full of transphobic people and that's going to damage their bottom line

Sébastien Renauld

and BTW, the collateral damage I was talking about was people who saw an avenue to do exactly this - to effectively get people edited, deleted, warned, etc for reasons they would never have in the past

see: Yvette's take on "no way dude"

StephanS

link?

are you talking about her Youtube videos?

Sébastien Renauld

It has been deleted since, so you may need some rep to see it

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390373/…

Journeyman Geek

9:37 AM

@SébastienRenauld and the pileon effect of folks who never had an interest on meta before this...

StephanS

yeah I can't see it

@JourneymanGeek cough cough me

Sébastien Renauld

TL;DR: somebody went to her "No way dude! <tech explanation>", she took offense, flagged it, flag was dismissed so she took even more offense

StephanS

I actually started using meta right before this happen, like a week before

Sébastien Renauld

Same

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld I've been on meta a while....

Sébastien Renauld

9:39 AM

I mean, also doesn't help that on SO I'm an active regular on a tag virtually nobody even knows about

Fabby

@DavidA yeah. poweroff is also less typing...

Sébastien Renauld

as a result, it's not really affected by any of the symptoms the CoC attempted to fix

Journeyman Geek

Actually - I had a few conversations with folks who felt that conflict and disruption helped change staus quos...

but it also often goes out of control

Sébastien Renauld

The problem with disruption is the potential for knee-jerk

ask any french person about how many times going on strike made things worse

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld well there's two factors here

In theory, you want the "bad" folks to leave

Sébastien Renauld

9:41 AM

Only two? thinking face

Fabby

@rene I had to drive through there every day to go to work...

Journeyman Geek

but what happens is they love this.

StephanS

@SébastienRenauld that happen to me on meta.SO someone called me a bot and i don't know why but I was really upset about it, everyone thought I was trolling which made me more upset

Sébastien Renauld

;-)

Journeyman Geek

The other is good folks are tired

Sébastien Renauld

9:41 AM

@StephanS I remember that

Journeyman Geek

there comes a point where we start shedding them

which leaves the bad apples

StephanS

@SébastienRenauld I was pissed

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek That's mob demographics, though

this happens all the time at protests IRL

David A

@SébastienRenauld But at least it gives them the feeling of power.

Sébastien Renauld

there's a minority of people in every protest who do not come for the protest, they come to stir shit up

Journeyman Geek

9:42 AM

@SébastienRenauld then what?

@SébastienRenauld the trick is of course, making sure we convince those to go elsewhere...

Magisch

quite a few people just want to watch the world burn

Journeyman Geek

But I'm also not a fan of making examples of people

Sébastien Renauld

90% of the time it ends up in the whole protest being broken up by whatever authority is nearby based on the fact that either the authorities got smacked and broke the protest, or the entire protest went violent

and sadly, there's no way to solve this, since you don't know who is in it to stir shit up until it's too late

Fabby

@StephanS Pissed = drunk, Pissed off = angry

(AFAIK)

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld I'm not sure the folks in authority are able to control it

Sébastien Renauld

9:43 AM

@Fabby Not in every english dialect. In parts of the UK "pissed" and "pissed off" are almost synonyms

StephanS

@Fabby ....

Journeyman Geek

Its like a paris sized protest walked into a small engllish town with one cop who mostly just hangs out and drinks tea

9

Fabby

@SébastienRenauld Merci...

@JourneymanGeek :D :D :D Starred!

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek I mean, it's already a catch22 even if there was some authority

you either break shit up and you get called not a community

StephanS

@SébastienRenauld this was used by the CIA when people protested the world trade center

Journeyman Geek

9:45 AM

@SébastienRenauld the really hard part with a mob of unknown folks is...

Sébastien Renauld

or you don't break shit up and you get called lax

Journeyman Geek

you really can't really use other means as well

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek and the cop hasn't used his gun or tazer in 20 years because the people in his town drop it when he says drop it

Journeyman Geek

s/people/dogs

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek Actually, beg to differ. The problem with other means isn't unknown people, it's the fact that SO has stonewalled every form of communication

Journeyman Geek

9:45 AM

british cops don't have guns ;p

@SébastienRenauld oh thinking of community moderation

yanno

Sébastien Renauld

When you tweet things like this: twitter.com/SaraJChipps/status/1182650441882058752

You don't invite conversation

Journeyman Geek

The sorta stuff I did here before all this started ;p

Sébastien Renauld

(No, it's not the inclusive tweet, I actually have no beef with that - it's the block KPI tweet)

202324

@SébastienRenauld offense at what? At the "dude" wording?

Journeyman Geek

lol

I've never had to block anyone

Sébastien Renauld

9:47 AM

@202324 Yeah.

It's similar to your "hey man" flag

Fabby

@JourneymanGeek When Parisians protest, tourism increases. When people in Hong Kong protest, tourism declines.

It's a French thing... CC @SébastienRenauld

StephanS

@SébastienRenauld twitter.com/edgue42/status/1183664212226260994

Sébastien Renauld

@Fabby tbf when protests in Paris happens the police brings out the flashballs, not the hollow points

202324

@SébastienRenauld do you mean the offense was at a gender issue? I thought dude was gender neutral and I was wondering if the offense was at the big informality.

Fabby

@SébastienRenauld Yup. It adds to the excitement.

Sébastien Renauld

9:48 AM

@202324 nah, the offense was flagged for sexism

Fabby

(Lived in Versailles for 4 years)

Sébastien Renauld

Dude, I lived in the 20e for a year

I can tell you a lot about protests

Fabby

@SébastienRenauld I'm originally from Brussels.

Sébastien Renauld

Wavre :D

Fabby

@SébastienRenauld Everberg.

;-)

Sébastien Renauld

9:49 AM

My childhood was punctuated by not being able to go to school because farmers would blockade the E411 every other week

Fabby

@SébastienRenauld One week the French, next week the Dutch, next week the Germans, ...

All protesting against EU regulations...

Sébastien Renauld

That was before my time

left Belgium in 1998

Drag and Drop

Haa the french and blockade, is at its best on the island. Reunion/Martinique is able to block the whole thing with 3 roads and one Port. And we are very pround of it

user194636

Official FAQ just hit net -1000

user194636

-1000

Q: Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes

We expect today’s changes to the Code of Conduct to generate a lot of questions. We’ve tried to anticipate some of the most common questions people may have here, and we’ll be adding to this list as more questions come up. Q1: What are personal pronouns, and why are they relevant to the Code of ...

StephanS

9:53 AM

that's amazing

I had a badge idea for this

no one liked it

Sébastien Renauld

You know

first we ruined Sara's rep count

Magisch

-1000 is impossible for a normal post

Sébastien Renauld

Now we're ruining Cesar's

Fabby

@SébastienRenauld I've left a lot of times... Came back every now and then.

Magisch

I wonder if they drew straws on who had to give up 2k or so reputation for that

Sébastien Renauld

9:55 AM

1

Q: Why should we be forced consider titles when discussing a topic that has nothing to do with them?

My question is not about your right to use a title or gender identification (or lack thereof) — it's a right you already have. My question is purely about the necessity to do so within the scope of the SE sites, especially the technical ones like StackOverflow. So no offence meant. Why should us...

discussion rules

This is kind of my take on the entire issue tbh

only applies to SO, there may be SE sites (that I don't frequent, so I have no idea - I'm on SO, codereview whenever rust comes up and crypto) where this isn't a good take, but for SO the dude hits the nail on the head

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld there's some sites where it is really important

StephanS

I love that user's bio it's a reads like a summary on a resume written in third person

Journeyman Geek

but... SO kinda is the one that everyone cares about

Well, more broadly

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek Absolutely zero disagreement on that and that's why there's the important caveat; however, there's nothing preventing different sites having different rules, right?

I can, for instance, definitely see different rulesets for religious QA sites

Not massively different, but different enough to warrant stating it

StephanS

meta.stackexchange.com/users/629629/isak I love everything about this

Journeyman Geek

10:03 AM

@SébastienRenauld that's a bit of a point of contenion

Sébastien Renauld

His profile reminded me; I need to find a way to get a resume reviewed

:-(

Journeyman Geek

should say a christian or muslim transgender or non binary person feel any less safe?

(hinduism kinda has a tradition of it, but its messy in modern times as these things are)

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek The more you make boxes, the harder it is to get out of the boxes

StephanS

@SébastienRenauld what do you mean by review? for spelling?

Sébastien Renauld

general content

I feel like I'm missing something but I can't place my finger on it

Journeyman Geek

10:05 AM

@SébastienRenauld that's to say - consider "be nice"

or the old rules

Sébastien Renauld

@JourneymanGeek My point exactly

Journeyman Geek

they were non specific. The COCs kinda attempt(ted) to fix pain points

but we still missed a bunch of things that happened, even within the mod community

Sébastien Renauld

There was a TV serie at some point that made a joke about finding the smallest possible boxes you could fit to "score points"; if you go too far down into identifications like that you run into that problem

David A

Behind every one of those downvotes is a user with sufficient rep to do it. So that's... something, I guess.

Sébastien Renauld

and you run into the other problem - people with valid issues but aren't part of an important enough minority get left by the wayside

@DavidA Don't you get 100 free rep for just signing up if you were already on the site?

StephanS

10:06 AM

@SébastienRenauld what type of jobs are you applying for

Sébastien Renauld

@StephanS fullstack dev/software architect

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld So - here's a big problem for me

StephanS

@SébastienRenauld do you have a LinkedIn?

Journeyman Geek

the actual problems these folks face are not quite as visible as they should be

David A

I started at 1 rep and only joined recently. I haven't actually downvoted anything though despite being able to do it.

Journeyman Geek

10:07 AM

and they're overpowered by, well...

all this drama

Sébastien Renauld

I made my mark on the canned replies

and then I made my mark positively on the CTO question

David A

CTO reply shot up to over 500 but has been steadily dropping. It's a bit odd to have a CTO involved in a moderator issue as it's not a tech issue.

Sébastien Renauld

Jesus, that post I linked is getting bombed

David A

Isak's post?

Sébastien Renauld

Yeah

user351483

10:15 AM

@DavidA It was an initially promising article. But since then the promises it contained proved somewhat empty. The CoC FAQ and the failure to prioritise and deal with Monica's personal hurt have taken their toll.

Journeyman Geek

@DavidA the CTO goes waaaaay back and people respect him a fair bit

David A

Plus anyone following his Twitter feed might haven't been encouraged.

He seems like a decent guy though.

Andras Deak

@Snow I reversed my upvote by the end of Yom Kippur when Monica was still in limbo (and still is)

OrangeDog

I initially upvoted because it was an actual apology, then switched to a downvote when it turn out to apparently be lies

user194636

I upvoted, later retracted the upvote, later downvoted. Similar reasoning.

StephanS

10:22 AM

I downvoted it because it contradicted itself in the post

PM 2Ring

Sorry, fumble fingers. I'll repost shortly.

@SébastienRenauld I read the Mumsnet link. It's not a full CoC, just their conduct rules pertaining to trans people & topics. It has problems: primarily, that it permits people to claim that trans isn't a legitimate thing, if such posts are presented as scientific discussions about biology. But even if their trans CoC were perfect, that wouldn't stop the anti-trans posts, because they have a strong anti-trans contingent that have no intention of stopping.

Sébastien Renauld

@PM2Ring We're in full agreement; I had the same read of it. My initial point was that dismissing it without even taking it at face value just because it comes from a specific place is just as narrow-minded and dismissive as what you're trying to fight

also, there are minor points where that conduct ruleset could be taken over to the SO one to smooth things out a bit

OrangeDog

Mumsnet is a pretty toxic place anyway

user194636

they probably say the same about SO

PM 2Ring

BTW, one of the commenters on that answer with the Mumsnet link has been persistent in posting anti-trans stuff, but they changed their username in the last day or so. FWIW, they're from a country where attitudes about LGBT issues are very emotional, so I don't blame them for having strong opinions.

OrangeDog

10:33 AM

But is also the sort of place where trans issues are going to come up whole lot

With extreme views on both sides, and at least half will be villified

Magisch

@DavidA I reverted my upvote following the lack of followup and tactless response here to monica

Sébastien Renauld

You can come up with very good rules in theory and completely fail at implementing them BTW @OrangeDog

that's why I've taken the stance that, even though it is mumsnet, doesn't mean there isn't something you can take from their code of conduct and graft it on yours to make yours better

PM 2Ring

@OrangeDog True. And that's not the case on most SE sites, apart from ones like Parenting & Interpersonal Skills, and to some extent The Workplace.

OrangeDog

@SébastienRenauld indeed, just don't point to mumsnet and claim that's the way to do it. Even for completely unrelated things.

Sébastien Renauld

At no point did I say that?

What I said was that you shouldn't point at mumsnet and go "that's from there, remove it"

I'm advocating the middle ground - that because some other community is toxic as fuck, doesn't mean their code of conduct has zero worth in terms of critical comparison

PM 2Ring

10:39 AM

The Mumsnet rules are too loose, so bad actors on either side can get crap through. The new SE CoC is a bit too extreme for a lot of users, and it feels like they're trying to micro-manage people.

Sébastien Renauld

i.e. that something shouldn't be dismissed out of hand without even taking the 5min required to read it, just because it came from a specific place

Magisch

Also, my initial though was correct. They'll fully develop their process for mod removal and reinstatement, and then Monica will be allowed to apply for reinstatement using that process: meta.stackexchange.com/a/334646

OrangeDog

The problem with mumsnet is not their rules, it's their community

Sébastien Renauld

@OrangeDog We're in agreement on that.

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld that said, knowing its a emotive issue - the specific things they brought up - that community and TERFs could be seen as potentially... uhm

Sébastien Renauld

10:40 AM

However, that's not what happened when mumsnet was mentioned

djsmiley2k

@Magisch How long tho.... 2 weeks? 3?

Journeyman Geek

Dramatic?

djsmiley2k

> David has not yet sent me information about it nor told me how I can trigger it, as of 2019-10-13 17:45.

Journeyman Geek

@djsmiley2k No idea

OrangeDog

I don't ever see Parenting.SE these days, I'm guessing they opted-out of HNQ?

Magisch

10:40 AM

@djsmiley2k No idea. My guess is a couple of months

Journeyman Geek

I will say - its a really well thought of system, and should have been followed in the first place ;p

djsmiley2k

@Magisch ouch

user351483

Oct 10 at 17:27, by Cesar M

@MonicaCellio Monica, next steps for your modship have been made clear over email to you... advocating for that on SE and here is not the way to go.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch eh

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek you probably have more idea how this process is going to look. How long do you think it'll take them to finalize it?

Journeyman Geek

10:42 AM

@Magisch uhm

honestly?

Its mostly done

djsmiley2k

@Snow hmmmm

Magisch

whats your opinion of it?

Journeyman Geek

some polish is needed but there's nothing particularly terrible about it

djsmiley2k

Is it the 'removal' process in reverse?

because that's essentially what it should be.

user351483

@JourneymanGeek We don't know whether or when the process will be made public. But it's there.

Journeyman Geek

10:43 AM

@Snow yup

@djsmiley2k since, Yanno...

djsmiley2k

hmmmm if it's not public, monica can't follow it?

user351483

We also don't know whether Monica is being put through this process, since she was canned by SE staff rather than by CMs.

Journeyman Geek

seekrits

Magisch

@Snow it says in her answer

Journeyman Geek

I'd say I approve of most of the process

Magisch

10:44 AM

meta.stackexchange.com/a/334646 David said in this post, and in that email to me, that SE would develop a process for reinstatement appeals and I could go through it.

user351483

Fair enough. I don't get to read everything any more, not enough time.

Magisch

I hope part of this process encompasses being told exactly what the problem is, with concrete examples

Sébastien Renauld

Doubt it

They did clearly say they won't re-litigate, so I'm 99% sure the new process is "We'll give you a free pass this time"

PM 2Ring

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I believe that if SE softened a little on neopronouns it would make the new CoC a lot more palatable for a lot of people. Allow "they" to be used to address people who do not want "she" or "he". If someone states in their profile that they want a neopronoun, then the CoC can encourage people to use it, but permit them to use "they" if they don't wish to write neopronouns for whatever reason.

user351483

@SébastienRenauld And a free trip to Disneyland. This, I doubt. If it does happen, there will be shackles-a-plenty.

OrangeDog

10:47 AM

@PM2Ring what about the people who request "they", but others don't want to use it because they believe it's plural?

Magisch

@SébastienRenauld call me cynical cactus the extraordinarily cynical but I think it's more likely the appeal will be declined without hearing then approved without hearing

Sébastien Renauld

@Magisch I'm also convinced of that

If process wasn't followed the first time, what makes it likely to be followed the second time?

PM 2Ring

@OrangeDog Then they can do what Monica prefers: write in a respectful way that avoids singular "they". But I believe the battle over "they" is a lot more winnable than the battle over neopronouns.

Sébastien Renauld

The battle over neopronouns has a ton of other problems

Magisch

I agree with aza's asessment here. SE has left itself no wiggle room to backtrack or smooth over with their initial response:

2 days ago, by Aza

@Magisch I don't think they can resolve the situation with Monica. It's turned into an HR question. Like, I just see no rational route forward for them but to part ways.

Mad Scientist

10:50 AM

Unless SE actually thinks they fired her in error, the new process won't change anything

Sébastien Renauld

Namely the fact that they keep deleting otherkin links for additional neopronouns

@Magisch There's another problem you need to consider. SE has tarnished Monica's professional reputation, most likely for at least the next 5-10 years

Magisch

@MadScientist if they believe that, they've essentially made it impossible for themselves to admit

the statements to primarily the press were extraordinarily unambiguous and don't leave any room for competing interpretations

David A

My suspicion is that someone had to push hard for her to get thrown out.

Sébastien Renauld

The motives aren't important here; at least not compared to the actions and the consequences

202324

@Magisch wat

OrangeDog

10:51 AM

When we can't make fun of furries, civilisation is over /s

Sébastien Renauld

in most countries if a company fires you on no grounds and you repeatedly ask for why, you're eventually liable to sue them for it

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld wait what?

user194636

I have $5 that says Monica will eventually be offered reinstatement

Sébastien Renauld

As in, whoever or whatever caused Monica to get fired is not anywhere near as important as what happened after it

Magisch

@PaulWhite put me down for 10$ that says that wont happen

Sébastien Renauld

10:52 AM

namely the fact that "whoever or whatever" isn't even known

user194636

Mind you, my $5 says a lot of unlikely dumb stuff so

Magisch

charity of your choice, if it happens, I mean it

202324

You keep saying that word and there's no employment relation.

user194636

Every day is a good day to donate to charity regardless of silly internet wagers

rene

Endangered Flowers seems a good charity ...

Sébastien Renauld

10:53 AM

if they come out with the 'whoever or whatever', i.e. the motive for dismissal, then it's going to be a bloodbath either way; if they don't, then there's a very good chance that whoever Monica ever hands a CV to will google and see this come up

user194636

@rene hah

David A

If nothing else, this an interesting demonstration of what happens when the relationship between SO/SE and volunteer moderators breaks down and what value the relationship has.

user194636

I don't have a huge problem with them waiting until they have a proper reinstatement process in place before progressing with Monica.

user194636

Might have been nice if they'd waited until they had a proper firing process as well but hey

David A

@PaulWhite Yeah that kind of called into question the competence of whoever was involved in that.

user194636

10:55 AM

little bit eh

rene

@SébastienRenauld one other option could be that SE offers a job to her ...

Sébastien Renauld

@rene Would you take a job from SE if you were in her shoes?

user194636

welcome to valued associate #nnnn!

Sébastien Renauld

I know I wouldn't

Journeyman Geek

@rene they do need more CMs.... ;p

Magisch

10:56 AM

@SébastienRenauld Thats a pretty tragic consequence of this, and SE has not made any attempts to rectify it

Sébastien Renauld

if you've been dismissed once and you're literally being employed to save trouble, how long do you think it'll last and how meaningful do you think your job has the potential to be?

Magisch

Imagine if you cancel culture one of your own volunteers

Journeyman Geek

@SébastienRenauld with a proper apology, and the freedom to do things...

Magisch

has to be a chilling effect

rene

@SébastienRenauld 6 to 8 weeks

Sébastien Renauld

10:57 AM

rene has it spot on

long enough for people to forget it

and you make sure you have a clause in the contract that you can't mention the dismissal after 8 weeks for another 18 months

and it's np, no PR backlash and SE look like angels

Magisch

@SébastienRenauld Hell no. I wonder what kind of infinite patience drives her to even want to come back at this point

Sébastien Renauld

@Magisch The desire to get things sorted. I can totally understand her, I've been in cases where I took similar actions professionally before

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch cause of the communities, not the company

Sébastien Renauld

something like this is something that can potentially last a very long while in terms of effects

Journeyman Geek

and there's folks around who're actually reasonable and care about the network

David A

10:58 AM

Pushing out this CoC in the middle of a CEO change might have been an issue.

Sébastien Renauld

Best time to do it

new CEO is too wet behind the ears to stop you

David A

Well from that perspective, yes.

user194636

that's a lovely phrase

Magisch

@SébastienRenauld if my employer did something like this, I wouldn't rest until they paid me like a decade of salary severance and issued public retractions. lawsuit if need be

rene

@SébastienRenauld yeah, that awkward meeting with HR where they were meant to fire you but instead you handed in your resignation an hour earlier ...

Journeyman Geek

10:59 AM

ah, but we're volunteers

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