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12:00
it doesn't take too much cognitive power to separate them
A lot of mods stepping down have expressed that they don't agree with Monica's stance, but they disagree with how she was treated. If that's not separate than I don't know what is.
@Magisch It's not that. Preventing a mod from stepping away from discussion when it directly contradicts with their personal beliefs is pure cruelty.
user194636
@AndrasDeak Let me clarify then. A clarification of the CoC led to a moderator being de-modded, and the way that was done led to a huge reaction. History will link the CoC to the drama I think.
I'm sorry I even brought it up, I just felt the need to air my position on it for once to avoid any outward assumptions over where I stand
The weird thing is: It's the internet. I only know the gender of someone if they choose to tell me or make it abundantly clear in a name/profile picture. If someone picks an ambiguous name and profile picture, I'm bound to either not use pronouns at all or use the preferred pronouns if I know them. I can't assume gender and pronoun based on looks
user194636
@Magisch That's fair, and I expect a large majority will agree. Perhaps after some discussion.
user194636
12:03
Some - probably a small percentage - will never be able to accept it.
I just wanted to put that out there on the off chance someone confuses my procedural misgivings with the whole affair with actual disagreement to the changes
user194636
@ErikA I don't think we are expected to guess correctly or never make genuine mistakes. The point is to use the correct pronoun, once someone has asked for that.
@ErikA are you mostly active on SO? This might have some good points
it doesn't cover the whole story but a few good points anyway
Hm, didn't expect CoC discussion to be allowed in here
user194636
It's the main topic on meta.se now?
12:06
But the SO room has it strictly banned
Well, it won't be be once the hot-headed folks come in
The Tavern hasn't yet had to be frozen. I'm hoping to keep it that way.
user194636
There are a few areas that I am still trying to get my head around.
For example, say someone raises a flag saying that a comment from another user used the wrong pronoun, and needs to be corrected.
Does that mean a moderator must edit the comment to replace the pronoun?
@OrangeDog depends on the amount of average level of judgement
@PaulWhite that would appear to be the logical conclusion
12:08
@PaulWhite that's kind of moot because the status quo is "comment was flagged? shaaaame"
user194636
@OrangeDog It would indeed. Perhaps SE will provide a user-visible revision history for comments. In any case, moderators will be doing something quite new.
@PaulWhite If it's about comments that can't be edited by non-mods, that sounds perfectly fine to me. I'd be surprised if a mod didn't mark that helpful and honor it with the current CoC
user194636
@AndrasDeak Depends on the site. Certainly comments are disposable on many. For others, long comment chains with discussion are quite the norm.
Clarification: if mods start editing our comments behind our backs, are we going to be responsible for reading our comments each time, and if we miss a change, we're going to be persecuted? That would be unsustainable.
s/persecuted/prosecuted/
12:15
@PaulWhite true, I only use SO
user194636
@JohnDvorak Well all is speculation to some extent, but one would expect that genuine mistakes would be overlooked. Only patterns of obvious pronoun avoidance or misuse would become a moderation issue.
@Shadow speaking of which, I do like the newish [staff] indicator
@AndrasDeak sure, but that's just one drop of sugar on huge pile of poo.
user194636
@AndrasDeak There is an interesting general divide on the whole issue between technical and non-technical sites (generalizing somewhat).
@Shadow I'm not sure what you mean
12:16
@PaulWhite on one hand, that is true. On the other, there is rising general fear that going by one's expectations isn't the safe route.
@OrangeDog I'm not a fan of that policy, it's incredibly chilling
@AndrasDeak one tiny good change while there are numerous horrible changes all around.
@Shadow I like my poo sugary though
@Shadow I wasn't implying that this change would somehow redeem the company. But pretending that everything can only suck is also a horrible fallacy.
@Bart only when it's at least 2 spoons for each cup.
12:18
@Mgetz In the SO room we can't risk it. We're on the knife's edge of what goes there
And the discussion about it hasn't blown up in here (yet), so it can go for now
@Magisch set the room to moderated
It's a public meta room. Not my call to make
@Magisch I disagree we're on the knife's edge, but I do understand your fear wholly.
@Mgetz if Magisch wanted to hands-on moderate the room he could've done that earlier. Respect his (and others') decision to prevent the discussion that needs hands-on moderation in the first place.
@AndrasDeak I was making a suggestion, please don't assume malicious intent
part of the problem right now is a lack of assuming positive intent
12:19
I too am just a volunteer. Between here and the meta room this kerfuffle has eaten most of my free time since monday
user194636
I don't recall the last time I had to use a pronoun at all on a technical Q & A site. But there are many non-technical sites. And chat.
@Mgetz I'm not
I get the feeling it's mostly relevant to chat.
your language indicates otherwise
@user58 Good point
12:20
@AndrasDeak I agree. To be honest I could live with the changes, even with animated or viagra ads. I can't accept a place that treats its best people with such horrible, non human attitude.
@Mgetz I apologize
@Shadow if they say they won't be animated viagra ads I dare you to ask "so where can I find them instead?"
@AndrasDeak accepted
@PaulWhite I understand that at least some of the issues have occurred in mod chat, where certainly you'd be talking about other people
Rob
Rob
Maybe we should sugar coat the Viagra, instead of the poop
Meanwhile sites like Christianity have objections based on subtly different things
12:22
@AndrasDeak when I'll need them in 60-80 years :D
user194636
@OrangeDog Yes, quite. Certainly chat will be an important venue. I do think that some main sites like IPS and ...er... WorldBuilding (?) will have a lot of fairly necessary routine pronoun use.
@AndrasDeak I agree. I don't see how Aza can be blamed for any of this. Stack Overflow Inc. is 100% at fault here and I neither believe that what they did to Monica was justified (neither that nor how they fired her) nor that it helped the cause they allegedly care about.
4
user194636
@john Didn't you post that in here earlier?
lets be perfectly clear aza was never at fault here
respecting her experience is the least we can do in any case
yes, that's what we're all talking about
12:24
1 message moved to Trashcan
Maybe some people didn't understand the difference between employees and volunteers. The former are usually ready to endure more because they get paid for it and, for example, have families to feed. The latter pay for it by sacrificng their free time they could've used to earn money instead.
Or perhaps they just don't care and believe that other people will moderate and in the long run it wouldn't make a change.
user194636
I've never felt like moderating is something I pay for exactly.
user194636
But yes, it seems SE are willing to pay any price at this point.
If that means replacing every moderator on the network, so be it.
@PaulWhite maybe we should
user194636
Should what? Feel like we're paying for it? Get paid for it?
12:28
@PaulWhite actually pay for it
Rob
Rob
There's a meta about paying Mods.
Of course there is...
user194636
@Mgetz I can barely afford NetFlix etc. as it is. Buggered if I'm paying to moderate SE 😀
"user58" That's just showing off
Afternoon!
@Chris - "This all leaves me wondering if we've wasted our time investing so much in this company" - Absolutely, categorically, irrefutably not. Even if SO went offline tomorrow, the millions of users it has helped, the countless projects that it has delivered, the motivation it has given people to take on things outside their comfort zone knowing they had support if needed is phenomenal and cannot be undone. YOU, the mod team, the community, made that possible and shaped the world of I.T into what it is today. Even Rome fell but it's influence lives on. Your time has not been wasted. — RyanfaeScotland 21 hours ago
58 is also hot comfortable , @M.A.R.
12:30
Oh hey look, I found another optimist.
@Shadow Nah even numbers suck.
oh wait
Should I anonymize myself, or would chat get confusing?
@Shadow Are you saying I'm hot?
user271002
@M.A.R. again?
I kinda feel like I'm asking the wrong question.
@Shadow The truth is out.
12:31
@user58 blonde moment. You're just comfortable.
@M.A.R. I don't think you have anything to worry about, so...
@Loong What do you mean "again"?
@M.A.R. more than your baseline?
@user58 Hey, there are only 80 million people in Iran.
Show off
user271002
12:32
@M.A.R. We have a book full of your previous user names.
No u
10 times more than Israel
@Loong You will never know that I'm really aniline.
Whoops
@Shadow pwned.
user271002
@M.A.R. I could smell that.
@Loong IUPAC's nomenclature of usernames.
Brown book.
@Loong Hey, it was @user58.
user271002
12:33
… but not pronounce it in English.
@Loong seriously? Out of all the oddities there are?
Uh, well, just go with the British
It's uncharacteristically simpler.
BTW, I changed my glasses and I don't look like a fake historian anymore.
@Shadow Fake blond.
e.
Rob
Rob
Aniline is an organic compound with the formula C6H5NH2. Consisting of a phenyl group attached to an amino group, aniline is the simplest aromatic amine. Its main use is in the manufacture of precursors to polyurethane and other industrial chemicals. Like most volatile amines, it has the odor of rotten fish. It ignites readily, burning with a smoky flame characteristic of aromatic compounds. == Structure == Aniline is a slightly pyramidalized molecule, with hybridization of the nitrogen somewhere between sp3 and sp2. The amine is flatter than an aliphatic amine, owing to conjugation of the lone...
@Rob Well, it's more like Ana-lean, no?
@M.A.R. f.
@Shadow g.
It would be interesting to analyze how much voting increased compared to how many more users participated in voting on meta.
It could be a good showcase (or rebuttal) of meta votes having a significant emotional aspect.
Rob
Rob
12:41
@M.A.R. Yes.
Rob
Rob
Pressing the Speaker 🔊 pronounces the word.
Who's the speaker?
@Shadow That is an oddly placed nose.
12:43
It's not nice to press him/her.
@M.A.R. maybe it's not a nose
Haha desperate times call for desperate jokes?
Totally
@Shadow Oh, a sniper targeting laser about to shoot?
I can never look at the image the same way again
@M.A.R. no, it has a pink dot in the middle
12:46
No onebox for audio? :(
@Shadow Definitely laser
Little pink hole? Well... if that's what you want to think. :D
Everything looks like (Stack) Plague Inc. now, the new plague called "strike", developed by Stack Exchange, has spread.
@Shadow . . . why you
@iBug What
Is anywhere else experiencing this?
. . . Good. Misery loves company. She definitely does.
@M.A.R. Spend 2 DNA points to enable animated ads, and your plague will spread faster :)
12:52
@M.A.R. yes I'm on strike too
@iBug Oh, boring.
Was REALLY hard to not close off topic question earlier.
only a matter of time before the plague spreads to all 173 countries sites
I thought Facebook was finally facing its demise.
Well, apparently I haven't downvoted enough answers. Keep 'em coming.
@M.A.R. you have it too, admit it
hmm....
12:55
Has anybody tried reaching out to SO through a Twitter account with cool-people influencer credentials but visibly zero investment in Stack Overflow except some expressions of disdain? Chances are a full statement will be forthcoming within 15 minutes 😄 — Pëkka 3 hours ago
Sigh when Pekka is being snarky, you really have pissed off people.
3
5 hours ago, by Journeyman Geek
As I understand - the big wider plan would be to get SE to IPO
What's that, sounds like a health condition.
Are you programmers copying us.
some money thing
Initial public offering (IPO) or stock market launch is a type of public offering in which shares of a company are sold to institutional investors and usually also retail (individual) investors; an. IPO is underwritten by one or more investment banks, who also arrange for the shares to be listed on one or more stock exchanges. Through this process, colloquially known as floating, or going public, a privately held company is transformed into a public company. Initial public offerings can be used to raise new equity capital for companies, to monetize the investments of private shareholders such...
> Initial public offering
Jinx.
You could just say that.
12:57
@iBug Thanks! I thought it meant Ignore people's outrage.
Now I'm sure you're trying to copy us.
TLAs FTW
I will CT your PAT.
eww
If they do this in preparation for an IPO, reaching tech press with this fiasco wasn't the best move in hindsight
13:01
@ErikA they've already reached The Register lol
If any remaining mod/diamond holder wants, this should be retagged to now. I'm not going to flag it.
A very Atwoody response, that.
Sigh Images working again was what I wished for all this time to go back and contribute canonicals to main and meta sites.
@JohnDvorak
> The @StackDesign
AMA with @uxpin
is starting in an hour, don't miss out!

Links to the chat rooms in their Meta post:
8
Q: AMA with UXPin on on Wednesday, October 2nd, 4PM–6PM GMT+02

RyanFirst Ask Me Anything will be on Wednesday, October 2nd from 4pm-6pm GMT+02 [9am EST] It will be with UXPin UXPin is a design tool you can use throughout the whole product creation process, including prototyping, collaboration, and handoff. You can use UXPin to create wireframes, UI des...

oh why yours didn't onebox? @John
13:06
@Shadow He wanted it not to take too much space
Look at what rene has done to them.
They've become onebox haters.
@Shadow @JohnDvorak
@JohnDvorak FYI (raw) links still render in multiline messages
Hiha ha.
13:08
@iBug I couldn't copy it as a single unit, so I didn't see any harm posting it in two messages
Where are these ads people keep talking about? — random Oct 1 '09 at 1:19
A joke back then q_q
I might be a bit busy today
New workplace
@JourneymanGeek or a new Workplace :)
user351483
@JourneymanGeek That's funny - I just left mine...
lol
@Shadow no one-box here .. wait .. wrong room
13:11
Shh, don't ping @Journey. He's carrying huge servers now.
Is it a Cray-1?
@john oh yeah... not used to such a crowded room. Sorry.
@rene Top secret man.
@M.A.R. Johnny English?
@JourneymanGeek congrats! Better place?
13:13
@Shadow Don't worry, it looks the same to me.
@M.A.R. more smelly
Too many feet.
Except with triangular red eyes squinting at us.
From the corners
Looks around
Paranoia
13:28
morns
@mega6382 afternoon
looking forward to Surface Pro 7
@Shadow different place
user351483
<mumbles apologies for chatflags on TWC>
14:03
status-shadow-on-a-strike
user351483
There's a ghost in Workplace Meta. The previous election post just got bumped by Community. Maybe it's trying to tell us something.
@Snow The robot says they should call up DarkCygnus
user351483
I guess talk of elections/moderators will likewise bump election metas on other sites as well.
Thats actually a good point I'd like to know what exactly caused this bump
seems like some relatedness algo gone awry
@Magisch zero scored answer
It's like that for years, no bug.
user351483
14:08
Relatedness is probably working. This might be due to a recent post on Main Meta asking about recent elections.
did someone downvote the answer recently?
@Magisch maybe user being deleted caused the single upvote to be gone
(so it won't also show in the timeline)
hrm
what a strange series of incidents
Yup
410
410
14:45
not surprised to see they are sticking around that long now.
@Glorfindel Done
Except the last one which needs 1 more
Don't know why Tim deleted the MSE post which ask everyone to go on strike against MSE. ( Thanos used the stones to destory the stones 🤷🏻‍♂️)
It's fair. MSE doesn't have to be a platform to raise support for actions against SE the company.
2
410
410
14
A: How many moderators are there on SE?

Alexander O'Mara568 according to this snippet I plugged into my browser's developer console when sorted by users. document.querySelectorAll('.mods-container>.mods-item').length Thanks to Mark's answer for the tip to sort by users for better deduplication!

14:53
You can call that censorship, I call that common sense
410
410
It's both.
There's another thing
I've been censored at GitHub, and I call that common sense.
410
410
That number 568 is familiar.... where is @bjb now?
Well I would assume the community team is trying to fix it
They would need to try to limit the damage
14:54
I don't understand why anyone would expect SO/SE to host such content in the first place.
410
410
Also, if 568 people, most of whom we don't know from Adam, have access to a chatroom, I would not expect the content of said chatroom to stay private.
@Bart cause people misunderstood the concept of freedom of speech
@410 and yet it has been so far
It's just stupid to criticize SE in SE considering how there's no criticism in e.g. #stackoverflow at Freenode (checked).
@JourneymanGeek ooooh, you're poking a pet peeve there ... "but muh freedom of speech" ... yeah, does not mean what you think it means :D
@OptimusPrime I agree that one was over the edge. It's one thing to say you're on a strike but asking others to do it is not nice. You're still a guest on the site, you should give basic respect even if you hate its guts.
15:02
@Glorfindel all done
dim
dim
Did Yvette just destroyed her account on the main meta?
@Shadow Oh? We don't own the place?
@dim that is the second time then?
dim
dim
@rene Second time? What do you mean?
Well, still...
@dim she had one, went away for a long time, came back.
@dim she said in the Meta room that she got some unpleasant comments. I can imagine she tries to make it a bit harder to find her.
@rene The 3rd time then? She also did that when she was suspended.
410
410
15:09
A sensible strategy for most.
I lost track I guess
410
410
Using my full name with the first SE account was the stupidest thing I did on SE.
(and I did plenty of stupid things)
yes
That's why it's even worse how they treat Monica.
Nope, there you are confusing the fact with the amplified consequences.
Which were bootstrapped by her and Gilles.
15:14
@410 that's why I only use half my name. Nobody will figure out the rest ... unless they visit my profile I guess.
@john are you saying that being handled disrespectful afterwards is okay?
uhm
hiiii
@rene have there been any further actions against Monica after the firing?
@john I assume she has seen "comments", no?
/away afk
gotta go now
410
410
15:22
@john This tone-deaf post judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/a/5197 is adding an insult to injury.
For sure, there's a difference between a director of communication publicly branding X of refusing to abide by the CoC (purpose "foster kindness, collaboration, and mutual respect") when X is either someone's actual name or something anonymous like user1234.
410
410
Especially combined with how the same person, speaking to the Register, shared the details that would not be shared in the meta post.
@410 Because that's confidential and sharing it on SE is taboo, but in The Register it's fine.
Although to be frank, those details had since some out in the variety of posts all over the network. It's not as if The Register revealed what we did not yet know.
@Bart that's not the point
I had not noticed this before
https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334133/stack-exchange-staff-speaking-to-the-press-instead-of-the-community#comment1091992_334133
user351483
15:32
The thing that still grinds my goat is that moderators have a policy of giving users a "cooling off period" when they break the CoC. It takes something huge to earn a permanent ban. Monica wasn't even given the opportunity to "cool off" over Sabbat and Rosh Hashana. If that had happened, there might have been some more considered and respectful discussion on either side.
@Snow have you read tim's latest comment about this?
user351483
There's been a comment? I must have missed that, been walking the dogs.
@Aza I think us doing something in a way that was obviously going to cause a significant backlash surrounding both the action we took and the perceived lack of planning, management and communication violated people's expectations in ways that they didn't think were possible. That we proceeded anyway is significant. That we'll continue will be significant. The end ideal result is when people are able to take actions like the one you took, and connect them with our reaction, in a way where our reaction was the best conclusion. If that makes sense. — Tim Post ♦ yesterday
uhm
Damn
user351483
Yes, my expectation was sure violated. A lot of things were violated.
15:38
My takeaway from this is that they knew what would come but considered the matter important enough to proceed anyways, and stand by that decision
410
410
@Magisch Translation: we are heroes.
Significant ones at that.
user351483
Don't forget that Tim was out of office at that point.
Everyone's the hero of their own story
user351483
Homelander: You're all the heroes.
They try to create the impression that they care about people but their actions show that they don't and are ready to throw anyone and everyone under the bus if that suits their goals.
user194636
15:42
@Snow why is that important?
@PaulWhite because he is not personally part of the "us/we"
user351483
@PaulWhite Because I don't know how much of a decision was in Tim's hands. For all I know it was a case of "Let's do this before Tim comes back so that he doesn't have to deal with it".
user194636
@Snow thanks
user351483
But that's conjecture on my part.
user194636
all is conjecture
user351483
15:44
Without facts, it's all we have.
user194636
largely because SO/SE refuse to make a clear public statement
They're not refusing per say, they're probably taking a long time to think about it and put it correctly. Unless you have a link showing they have said they will say no more on the topic?
@Snow But it seems like no one feels that they have to deal with it. See Sara's copy-pasted, short boilerplate answers to resignations (and the firing).
(mobile now) they shouldn’t write her name in press, unless they are sure it’s a fake name
user194636
@Draken it's latin, per se
user351483
15:45
The devil on my shoulder is telling me to write a Meta on "How the Monica Situation should have been dealt with".
Are you on the register article? Because it sounded like they communicated to her directly and had quotes. So I'd assume they cleared which name they could use
Stop listening to that devil, wait for the official response if it comes, and then decide what you do. It doesn't seem like the situation would benefit from any more content about it.
user351483
I know. And I'm sure that SE knows how they should have handled this.
The issue is, do we have a deadline when they will reply?
user194636
I heard 6-8
user351483
15:47
months
@Draken no technically
Snow unless you have full view of what the "Monica situation" is then you cannot say how it should've been handled. And if you do you still cannot reveal enough of it in order to justify your opinion.
They will reply when they will reply. Stop refreshing your browser. Go do something useful with your time. Hug a tree, water a puppy. Whatever.
@rene just the base
;)
@Bart *If they reply
user194636
15:49
It's hard to imagine how any official reply would be in their best interests
As you wish @Draken. If they don't, that's a message as well. See what you do with it.
user194636
I'm sure they'll release a clarified CoC in due course
Well, Register shouldn’t have written about neither Cellio, not even Chipps.
user194636
Well Sara is at least a senior figure in a company that has publicly released statements
user351483
I'm surprised it's only the Register to be honest.
user194636
15:52
It may not be all that 'exciting' to the outside world
They refer to all those posts as "soapbox", well, at least Shog.
No matter if one’s for or against current moral pronoun trends, one should avoid assigning neither of the choices to neither actor; because there’s no universal agreements on that matter and some of the opinions might be punishable in some countries of the world.
Writing real names might be contributing to some future execution.
@Shadow you've got to admit that after the umpteenth post on the subject, there's not much value in another "I'm upset as well, hear me roar". Of course it's not up to me to determine where that cut off is, but it does get soapboxy ...
3
user194636
I imagine the number of soapboxes needed is directly proportional to the depth and breadth of feeling on a particular matter
Or the amount of soap you need to transport
user194636
16:00
That too
user194636
TPTB don't seem to be moderating any but the most extreme content so that seems like tacit approval for venting to me
Suspension in 3 ... 2 ... :p
user194636
Old shog would have done that for comedy value alone
How does one productionize though?
I imagine one takes a product and hits it with ionizing radiation
16:04
Productionization sounds like something you learn about at a seminar.
"make ready for production"
user194636
16:19
sounds performant
@john the triple negative hurts my head
16:42
y'know when one flags a post LQ, and someone reviews it and chooses Edit, corrects a minor thing that doesn't make it not-LQ, and ends up kicking it off the review queue -- any MSE post about that? search not cooperating atm
@Bart from experience it's puppies that water you
@Bart yup
Hey folkx, just asking to learn here but is there a specific reason why this question wasn't just migrated to MSO?
410
410
(1) Because the OP is suspended there, migration would fail.
You can't migrate a question to a site where the OP can't post.
410
410
(2) It would not add value to MSO anyway
16:52
Ahhhh. That makes sense.
Thanks :)
@Rubiksmoose I wouldn't have
The goal isn't the get an answer. Its to get a platform to complain
"Don't migrate crap"
410
410
@motosubatsu I believe it's because snow put featured on, but snow had already resigned. Another mod will need to put the featured tag back on who isn't an employee or already resigned. — opa 3 hours ago
Some flimsy logic that would be.
Especially on TWP that has no active mods left.
17:08
That's the way it's been working.
410
410
> It's a little secret just the Robinson's affair
Most of all you've got to hide it from the kids
if there are no active mods to feature it, there are also no active mods to handle all the reports that featuring it will bring
410
410
So cover-up is the solution then.
If there are no active mods to handle flags, there is no CoC enforcement either.
(apart from rare N flags occasions)
The site should be in read-only mode then.
@JourneymanGeek Yeah that makes sense. I wasn't thinking about it in that context.
410
410
There are at least three TWP posts in HNQ right now, with all the flags that they bring
17:19
@410 the CMs have taken over that duty, but flag handling is obviously slower
It seems quite a predicament what to do now, the most likely being proabably that they'll call in mods from other sites pro-tem
More likely site quality on TWP will significantly deteriorate until new elections are held
*sigh*
It'd be kind of rude to the community there to go intentionally stir things up when you know very well there are no active mods. Let's not even be snarky about that.
@410 No, it wouldn't
the mess is big enough without intentionally adding to it
410
410
Was meant to be more of gallows humor than snark.
> Hi, reader in the U.S., it seems you use Wikipedia a lot; that's great!
This ... makes me less likely to contribute, tbh.
I know there are tracking cookies and stuff, but they don't have to rub it in.
(I do have a recurring contribution set up, but apparently there is no cookie for that)
Wikipedia has like 25 euros a year from me, solely out of spite because they don't run ads and I want to send a message supporting that
too late
17:39
@Magisch uhm
That would be tricky
@JourneymanGeek Alternative would be no mods for at least some months
I can't imagine them scheduling an election right away
Can't they just give diamonds to some of the people from marketing and design?
If you have an account on Wikipedia, there's a setting in your user profile to suppress the donation banner (presumably because you're now supporting them in kind)
@AndrasDeak eugh
17:55
@Magisch just let smokey mod it

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