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02:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

5:01 PM
Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange networks have resumed normal operation. https://t.co/CNG18SX62R
some bad async code that was causing a crash of a low-level IIS process. Post Mortem: To prevent such mishaps in the future It is no longer allowed to write async code ....
Does this mean Left nav on SO proper is now postponed?
I think the two are unrelated.
Catija's right. i'm deploying left nav stuff now, it's entirely unrelated
Okay, I guess that is good then :D
something something leftpad
5:17 PM
In the sequel deploying broken builds on SO: Left nav, featuring @AdamLear as @AdamLear (que music for suspense)
Ha. I don't think the outage was even a new build. Just something fell over behind the scenes.
@Adam Nick blames caching for now :P
Usually a safe bet
Hopefully not a server rack
These have usually failover backups, at least on serious cloud systems.
Anyways interesting to watch SE engineers working in realtime.
5:32 PM
It works on MSE
I now have a repro of the conditions involved. It happens in a stale background async fetch on a thread (to not block user pages) when an async handler itself throws. This bug has been laying dormant, but combined with a bad deploy (that thew) it was catastrophically exposed.
maybe the searchbox needs to move a bit to the right so it aligns with where left nav ends
I was a bit confused about that new layout. My motorical (mouse move) behaviors need to be retrained now.
Lots of cheese moved
Oh, wow, the top site banner is really narrow.
Yeah, some vertical optical alignment between the MSE logo and the SE logo along with the search bar being in line with the left sidebar.
5:40 PM
It's the exact same size as my company banner is actually
@AdamLear Will the vote button colors be configured by site? The orange doesn't make as much sense on MSE as it does on SO.
Maybe! The idea with the new themes is to make them all based around a "primary color". I'm not sure if we were going to use it for the vote buttons or not off the top of my head. That's a good question to ask if you want to give feedback on the design on meta itself, though :)
I think Napoleon's going to but I'll poke him and let him know about what you just said.
The designer who worked on this is out today (and possibly tomorrow? I'm not 100% sure), so it might be a bit before a clear answer either way. My involvement is purely on the implementation.
@AdamLear In private mode/not logged in I can't dismiss the Meta Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for meta-discussion of the Stack Exchange family of Q&A websites. Join them; it only takes a minute: banner. No errors in the console.
5:45 PM
yeah, something's jacked there. I'm looking into it
This SOfT bug is not resolved after Nick's fix: meta.stackexchange.com/q/311166/158100 and as that is from a paying customer someone from SE staff might leave a comment there.
That is a 404 on https://stackoverflow.com/c/charcoal/users/tags/subscribe
I passed it on to the dev who did tag watching
6:02 PM
y'all have ux people for the designing?
We have, yes.
It's a staff position at the dev department.
He's trying to save pixels all the time :)
And at my former job there was that position also.
Devs are usually bad with that ...
... which is probably why Magisch is asking whether the SE team has UX people.
@JoeFriend I noticed that the vote button on posts I've voted on here on MSE is orange, the theme color for SO. Will it be orange on all sites, or will it have an appropriate color? For example, Super User has the same style of vote buttons, but their vote arrow on voted posts is colored blue.
28 mins ago, by Catija
@AdamLear Will the vote button colors be configured by site? The orange doesn't make as much sense on MSE as it does on SO.
@Catija Wasn't that clear from that post?
26 mins ago, by Adam Lear
The designer who worked on this is out today (and possibly tomorrow? I'm not 100% sure), so it might be a bit before a clear answer either way. My involvement is purely on the implementation.
I took y'all for everyone just here now.
6:11 PM
I sure wish the SE team would be a bit more... responsive to our answers to that question
You could argue that UX designer and artistic designers may not be the same thing, so it's unclear.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Vote buttons should follow site theming as far as I'm concerned. I'll discuss with our designer. He's out through tomorrow.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Which question? Joe's been a fiend in updating the answers with status tags quite regularly.
A: Live: Left nav, new theming and responsiveness

Christian Raufeature-request (bug) The voting buttons on Meta Stack Exchange don't fit to the site design's individual colour palette. Whereas they previously were light blue, as fitting to MSE's colour palette, they now seem to use the orange from Stack Overflow's design: I know their shape has been unif...

@AdamLear You may want to leave a similar comment here ^^
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I already told Napoleon Adam's comment.
6:14 PM
A: Live: Left nav, new theming and responsiveness

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehogfeature-request Right now, it's not possible for users who aren't signed into an account to collapse the left sidebar or disable top bar stickiness. Can we somehow allow for that? I browse the site in private mode from time to time, and I'd make use of such a feature. See: Allow logged-out use...

@Magisch ??? You asking Stack Overflow folks? If so, the answer is yes. Why do you ask?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog commented, thanks
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog That was asked 11 min ago. How quick is quick enough? ;)
@JoeFriend Is my above answer ?
I wasn't specifically referring to my request; I just noticed that a large proportion of existing answers were still waiting for responses
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog The only place that option exists is on the user settings page... I'm not really sure how they could fix it without making the option built into the page (which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion).
6:17 PM
@JoeFriend Didn't you notice that nothing is fast enough for @Sonic? ;)
@πάνταῥεῖ Guess it goes with the name.
@JoeFriend Could you also retag the linked MSO post?
Quick, quick plz
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Sometimes it is best to let a feature request sit and have others vote/provide feedback before I take action on it. I try to balance being responsive and listening. Ultimately, the real answer will be provided via a follow up post.
6:20 PM
@JoeFriend I think is a better tag; is technically only for bug reports.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I don't get too hung up on technicalities. I think it communicates our thinking on the proposal.
I have no horse in this race but I know someone's going to ask - Why? — Jon Clements ♦ 1 min ago
I deleted the MSE answer because it got downvoted.
I remember the time when the top bar used to be themed per site.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog "disable responsive" is now in all three footers. Thanks for finding that bug.
@JoeFriend Because I figured and adam said he was only implementing it
@Magisch Well, Adam is being a bit modest with the "only". But, we have interaction designers, visual designers/illustrators, design devs and researchers that work on all our features. Some of the interaction designers do a lot of front end coding as well. That was the case on these features.
6:36 PM
what luxury :P
in my job I have to design the forms alone too (I hate that part)
@Magisch I think it is a necessity. But tomato tomato. ;)
As a product manager, i can't imagine doing my best work without a design partner.
They add HUGE value.
our IT department is 4 people
4 programmers
we have to do first level support, part sysadmin, backend & frontend implementation, design, project management and taking requirements
You barintolerants, we need more bars. I want a bar on the bottom as well. I want multibar options. Bars inside of bars. Bars that maximize, bars in dynamic layouts, multi screen bars, and naturally, bars that serve the martini shaken. It goes on forever — and — oh my God! — it's full of bars! — dtech 7 mins ago
I'm going to the bar.
6:51 PM
Good idea
7:13 PM
The new UI is new. I hate it.
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ As mentioned. Need to retrain motorics.
I mean, if the new UI was old, I would've loved it.
@TimPost make sure you're clickable
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ chevy chique?
No, I don't know him
It's what "fake vintage" is called here recently
7:21 PM
Furniture mostly
7:36 PM
Stack Overflow looks ugly.
A: "This looks like spam" error message when attempting to ask a non-spam question

user134300Post a random string. Make sure it has enough distinct letters to pass the "low quality" entropy check. Once it's posted, immediately replace it with your intended post. The spam filter won't check your edit, and the original version won't appear in the revision history unless someone responds i...

I hope there is going to be some analysis on diminished participation based on the new design.
I don't think it's good to let spammers know how to pass the spam filters. (Not talking about OP, but rather other people who intend to post actual spam.) — Shadow Wizard 14 mins ago
@TravisJ I asked the same when they changed the review icon, never got response.
@ShadowWizard This user is one who likes to post publicly about security flaws, in order to push SE to fix them faster. — Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog 24 secs ago
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you mean Jeremy? I don't like this sort of action, and that's not a security flaw anyway.
7:39 PM
@ShadowWizard I don't think he likes to be referred to publicly by that name.
@TravisJ It's not so bad in Netscape under Windows 3.1
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog so he can delete his account and stop posting.
@ShadowWizard I don't think he likes having his whole rep wiped out, such that he has to start all over if he ever decides to rejoin.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog well, that's really not my problem. But I won't start referring to him as "that user", or "Mr X".
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ at least they fixed the ugly tabs, e.g. in users page.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you mean before becoming black? (on non-SO sites)
7:48 PM
Good memory!
I remember the envelope though.
And to this day, some of its functionalities are still missing.
(e.g. easily see changes to favorite questions)
So... can anyone click on the MSO question that was migrated? "My concerns regarding the new sidebar [migrated]" Clicking on it does nothing but I do get this URL when right clicking: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/369374/…
But when I click on the URL... nada.
It seems to be this question here on MSE:
Q: My concerns regarding the new left navigation

Callum WatkinsHere are a few thoughts of mine about the new sidebar appearing on SO: There's "Home", then there's "Stack Overflow", but the latter doesn't take you to the homepage. It instead takes you to /questions. Why isn't it just called "All Questions" then? What is the globe icon next to "Stack Overflo...

works fine for me
Oh... FFS. Looks like it's just my stupid computer. Every now and then I have to restart Chrome because it refuses to open new tabs.
takes me to 311184
I have no clue what causes it.
8:01 PM
Based on the fact that some say it's unwelcoming to edit out "Thank you", I have this silly idea that we add text boxes saying "Hi all" and "Thank you" below/above every question (with a user-setting to hide it for all viewed questions) so we can justify editing that out of questions.
And restarting it is annoying.
or just ignore the unwelcoming complaint
much less work
@KevinB Could work, but it was in that blog post, IIRC.
even easier to ignore
8:06 PM
@Dukeling I carefully read the FAQ about it, and realized it doesn't prohibit "thanks" in particular.
The top four answers are only about salutations and signatures, and the top fifth answer says you shouldn't remove them.
@Catija Perhaps you should switch to Edge?
(Or do you not have Windows 10, or do you use a Mac?)
I can't use edge on my work computer and I have a mac at home.
@Catija Your work computer still runs Windows 7?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Do you mean it doesn't prohibit editing out "thanks"? If not, that's kind of my point - it's not prohibited and editing it out is discouraged, but I don't really see the point of it being there (selectively), so just put it there for everyone who wants to see it, and not for anyone who doesn't.
@Dukeling It doesn't prohibit the presence of a "thanks".
@Catija Windows 7 will suffer the same fate as Windows XP did in April 2014, in January 2020.
It's noise though. Prohibited or not.
8:12 PM
Yeah, if I were reviewing an anonymous suggested edit (no rep involved) that removed thanks and made other substantive changes, I'd approve it as is. But if it only removes thanks, I'd reject it.
If the OP insists to rollback such edits, you may simply move on.
@Dukeling Why not just selectively append it on all posts?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Maybe for lower rep editors.
But I'd preferably let such edits pass through review.
meh, i'd rather users who need their edits reviewed not make edits that only consist of removing salutations.
A rejected edit pushes that opinion
So the setting to disable to left bar of the new nav is a per-site setting, not a global setting...
8:24 PM
Can I please see the last comment on meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311188/…? I think it was a response to my comment.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I don't use Windows 7 for the machine that gets me to the web... I still don't get to choose. I have either FF or Chrome. That's it.
Disable it => now requires 2 clicks instead of 1 for my most common action.
Don't disable it => have a bunch of distracting and generally pointless text follow me around wherever I go.
Choices, choices.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Nope, it's not to you.
'now requires 2 clicks instead of 1 for my most common action' - yes, that is indeed intensely annoying:(
@Dukeling at least it isn't fixed
8:31 PM
Maybe I should just write a user script to change the menu button I'd only use for one thing to instead just do that one thing.
get used to using the home page instead of the questions page, it's 1 click away even if the sidebar is hidden.
But I want to see the most recent questions...
@Dukeling No steps forwards, one step back:(
document.querySelector("div.left-sidebar-toggle.p0.ai-center.jc-center.js-left-sidebar-toggle").href = "/questions";
Am I almost there or is it just obvious that I have no idea what I'm doing?
Whoops, that should be a..... Now does something, but still doesn't work.
@Catija screenshot edit to be medium, linked to large
8:41 PM
It works if I open it in a new tab...
@rene Thanks!
@Catija Ah, I see. Out of curiosity, is it running Linux?
Note to future readers: I do not endorse Sonic's framing of this post. — user134300 37 mins ago
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog No. It's Windows 10... it's just not my computer that I can control.
@Catija So they've locked down and disabled Edge?
No... I don't really know what the infrastructure is but I assume they're some sort of hunk of servers that run Windows and all they do is connect us to the internet. We have two choices for how to do so and zero access to the servers themselves.
8:48 PM
@Catija Ah, so you Remote Desktop into them?
They call it a portal but... sure? I really don't know and I really don't think I should talk about it any more.
@KevinB Well, I'd rather have a short investigation about if they're ab-/over-using such kind of edits. I'm doing such frequently on sites where I have edits going through peer reviews. It's rare that removing the salutation is the only thing, but I am just doing that from a reflex, and certainly have no abuse at mind in such actions.
I never do reviews, so ignore my advice
i have the button blocked
I am only doing edit reviews on pending edits, when I am wondering what these are.
Not from the queue certainly.
i've done 3 of those this year
oh, one of those was a reopen review
8:53 PM
My motivation to look at pending edits mostly comes from an impulse when I want to edit a post myself.
This is a duplicate answer of this... if anyone wants to help remove it.
@Catija Did you read the comments on it?
The comments on the newer one are just arguments about it being downvoted.
@ChristianRau Why does this site stops you from showing constructive criticism, Can't I simply state what the problem is, I am not even presenting my solution, why downvote, what did you not liked about this problem, It makes sense, It put thing out of focus, and is irritating. — Suraj Jain 24 mins ago
probably just irritated about the left menu and taking it out on the comment box
9:04 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Not really sure why that makes it necessary to have two nearly identical answers from the same person...
@Catija Why not delete the older post?
Because that's not really how it works. They need to edit the first one rather than post a new one. Reposting isn't a way to escape downvotes.
9:19 PM
@Catija "Reposting isn't a way to escape downvotes." Just that. Totally agree.
It's an effective way to get people to look at the post from a fresh perspective and not one that's clouded by others' downvotes. If people see that it has a negative score, they're less likely to bother reading it and decide it's worthy of an upvote.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog It's not a different answer, though! If you exclude the paragraph complaining about downvotes, 3/4 paragraphs are verbatim.
@Catija No, take a careful look at it, side by side. The newer one lacks the second paragraph, which contains the solution.
People commented that they downvoted because of the solution.
> If you exclude the paragraph complaining about downvotes, 3/4 paragraphs are verbatim.
It's still the same exact complaint. The solution is irrelevant.
I hate liberal voting on meta sites. Why can't voting just be quality-related, as it is on main sites?
9:26 PM
It's still a very poor quality answer, regardless of agreement. It's just a complaint.
... and it's a complaint that's been voiced several times in the answers already... with actual images to back up the complaint.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Because there's room for opinions given as well.
@πάνταῥεῖ Each downvote deprives the opinion maker of two rings. Is your disagreement so vocal that the opinion maker should lose two rings (which count towards privileges) for each disagreer?
We already discussed, why that's exceptional at MSE.
And achieving disagreement at MSE is the final turnout. I'm not concerned about rep loss here at all.
9:43 PM
@Shog9 Any update here?
Q: Allow searching for employers that do not put mandatory arbitration agreements into their contracts

gparyaniYesterday, the U.S. Supreme Court dealt a massive blow to workers' rights, affirming employers' rights to enforce mandatory arbitration agreements in employment contracts. This means that if workers who are in such a contract disagree with some aspect of their employment, they have to do so in pr...

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Why should i delete it. — Suraj Jain 1 min ago
@Catija ^^
10:05 PM
Whee! I got to play with the "improve and edit" update and it does look nice in the history to see it as two edits. :D
heh... THAT bit wasn't broken. The history has always been correct; it was rollback / edit revision / the timeline (oddly enough) that were broken.
Oh. :(
Well, the timeline looks nice, too. :P
but, happy to hear you're using the feature all the same. I think it is a good feature.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog How else would you propose we indicate disagreement? Posting an answer just saying I "I disagree" seems ... wrong. Having another set of up-/downvotes for disagreement seems ... clunky, and 6-8 weeks-y. Although having it tied to reputation probably isn't the best idea.
It's a great feature. Encourages users to edit and helps them see what other improvements could have been added.
10:08 PM
@Dukeling Full conversation here:

Voting behavior on meta and inclusivity

Jan 18 at 23:44, 56 minutes total – 105 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Jan 19 at 0:41 by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Jan 19 at 0:28, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
@M.A.R. Ideologically you shouldn't be losing your hard-earned rep just for suggesting something that is unpopular.
(Emphasis on "just".)
What makes the new nav hamburger not work like a regular link when clicked and how do I make it work like a link with a user script? I already managed to change the URL, but that only makes it work when opening it in a new tab (like "share").
presumably you'd have to disable any events that are bound to it
well, any events that would prevent it from performing the default action anyway
Sounds hard...
maybe, maybe not
overriding the onclick with raw JS should do the trick
10:18 PM
My HTML, CSS and JS knowledge is pretty basic, so... it's probably surprising that I managed to even figure out how to override the URL.
if it's still done with jquery, a simple .off should do it.
yeah, that does the trick.
@KevinB Now I just need to figure out where in the user script to put that..
"puff" doesn't work anymore?
@πάνταῥεῖ Use the hyphen (e.g. fp-) to make it not even post that message in the first place.
@πάνταῥεῖ "poof" works
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Sure, that was a mistyping.
10:23 PM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Ah yes. Alzheimer, sorry.
All too late now :P
Next time, at least in case I don't forget that again :3
@KevinB hmm... that won't remove events bound with .bind() though, no?
(or .click())
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog rejected as vandalism, too bad Jeremy lost it. Hope a CM would suspend his account until he cools down.
10:28 PM
@Shog9 ^^
It's OK to hate a feature, it's not OK to abuse your powers and vandalize the site due to it. Maybe it's for the best for everyone if he really starts from scratch, without powers.
@Nick_Craver Grabs butter sauce ;-)
@Catija Strange...I rolled it back just now and it attributed you as doing the rollback
Yeah, because I was an idiot. I was looking for the rollback link on the wrong version.
I probably clicked it right before you did.
document.querySelector("a.left-sidebar-toggle.p0.ai-center.jc-center.js-left-sidebar-toggle").href = "/questions";
That did it.
Suppose that could be simplified a bit:
document.querySelector(".left-sidebar-toggle").href = "/questions";
Probably not a good way to do it though.
10:56 PM
yeah, that's actually a good way to do it, if your code runs before theirs
11:55 PM
@Catija I flagged the post you were asking to delete as NAA, and it was dismissed as "helpful - It is essentially the same answer as posted earlier.", without it being deleted. Just wanted to let you know.
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