Tavern on the Meta

00:00

This is magnified for users like me without as much reputation, as the differences between levels are so little that the relative loss is magnified

M.A.R.

OK, that's a pretty bad idea

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. What is?

M.A.R.

Many are rightfully complaining that the downvote penalty is too low

If you take it away, there's no real way to tell newbie users that their idea is bad

No one listens to people in comments

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Think about the initial proposal about the licensing change. People upvoted it because they thought it was important and well-written, but disagreed with it in the comments. The SE team proceeded on because "85% of the votes were upvotes".

M.A.R.

OK OK, I'm confused. What's your proposal, again?

Isn't it about removing the penalty for downvotes on meta.SE?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

00:03

@M.A.R. No, I haven't proposed anything yet. I will do so in just a second

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog well, this is exactly how it works. We usually discuss feature requests and whether they're cool, stupid or stellar before posting them

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog alright. So for a new voting system, you need to show why the current one is flawed

And you losing a bunch of rep isn't a good example

Because it's earned way more easier than it's lost

The reason this FR would fail, in my opinion, is the problem with the current system isn't drastic enough to urge change

And an increase in complication

Ha, we're already in a lot of trouble teaching people how to use the two frigging arrows.

Plus, your proposal isn't going to address the underlying issue you're unhappy about.

Now I feel like talking in a bathroom alone. And the sound is echoing.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

The current voting system makes people, especially those somewhere on the autism spectrum (like me), perplexed. "The question is clearly well-written and shows clear research effort, but just because you disagree with it it suddenly isn't written well enough and shows too little research effort. What is going on?"

Back in 2013, when I contributed here, this was absolutely perplexing for me. It took me a very long time to finally get it.

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog oh, you mean the tooltip?

187

Q: Change upvote/downvote tooltip on meta sites

Since voting on meta sites mean something different on the main sites, can you change the tooltip as well: This question is useful and clear --> I agree This question is unclear or not useful --> I disagree This answer is useful --> I agree This answer is not useful --> I disagree ...or somet...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. Not just the tooltip. It was confusing for me as to why feature-requests and other questions (including those on main sites) were held to different standards. I couldn't understand it.

M.A.R.

Well, it's a culture a community develops

Doesn't necessarily make sense

The only thing newer individuals like us can do is adapt

But I guess agreement/disagreement is the only sensible option for FRs

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

00:16

@M.A.R. Being on the spectrum makes it more difficult for us to adapt.

M.A.R.

You just have to ensure what you're proposing is absolutely a good idea to avoid downvotes

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog well, you just found the secret to avoiding unpopular posts in the future

Discussing stuff in chat before posting them

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Look, what goes on in my mind is "hey, I had 127 steps to go before I get to see view counts. But just because I expressed an unpopular opinion, I've been thrown back two steps; now I need 129."

M.A.R.

I even discussed bugs here

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog you're looking at the empty space in the glass

It will obviously be disheartening

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Society tells us that we should speak our mind out if we disagree with something. But I, as well as several AS people I know both IRL and online, have had a life of being forced into the corner if we say something people disagree with. To us, it feels like the same thing is happening again.

I.e. it's part of the same pattern, not some isolated incident (because NTs a.k.a. non-AS people don't usually experience such a thing as a systemic pattern).

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog we can always speak our minds, but we should accept the consequences

I'm sorry for your condition. I'm personally suffering a rare illness.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

00:22

I think this behavior of voting on FRs like this presents a genuine inclusivity problem. @Shog9 I think you should take a look into it

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I think you should take a look at some vote-related proposals here and on Meta.SO

This stuff you say has already been discussed a lot

And the result was either the OP was wrong or this system is the best we can come up with

There is also two things: 1, earning rep on meta.SE is super easy compared to other sites, so this works for you and you shouldn't complain

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. From what I can tell, no one has ever raised the issue of inclusivity for people like me.

M.A.R.

2, the privilege you wholeheartedly strive for isn't really something special

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. AS people have great ideas. Einstein was AS.

(I can't believe it, I keep striking Enter instead of ')

M.A.R.

You're free to open up a post about how tough the voting system can be on AS people

But I don't think anything can come of it

You haven't still proposed something that would be a better idea than the current system

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

00:28

@M.A.R. Ideologically you shouldn't be losing your hard-earned rep just for suggesting something that is unpopular.

(Hold on a second as I write replies)

M.A.R.

Adding a layer of complexity only makes things harder, esp. for nonnative speakers and AS

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog OK

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. I can say, this behavior has had a chilling effect on my overall willingness to suggest ideas. Which is detrimental to a community where ideas should be free-flowing.

@M.A.R. I understand, especially seeing as the work on Channels, etc. has diverted resources from Q&A development.

27 mins ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Careful what you wish for. I don't want ridiculous ideas from people who don't know what they're talking about just because it's free-flowing. It's exactly what a voting system is meant to prevent. The most stupid ideas are posted anyway, because their OPs don't even know they don't know. But no, I don't want a flurry of ideas. I want few, good ideas.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. I think this would make things simpler. While the overall code would be more complex and it would be just a teeny bit more complex for NTs used to the current system, it would make things much simpler for AS people and perhaps for newer NTs. Regular votes would just be for quality, nothing else, everywhere. A separate set of dis/agreement votes would make things simpler to understand and not an outright mess for people like me.

(Done)

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog as I said, adding a layer of complexity only makes things harder for nonnative speakers. We can't teach them how to use one pair of votes. How would we teach them to use two?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

00:35

@M.A.R. Nonnative English speakers, you mean?

M.A.R.

Yeah, I'm too lazy to type it all out

Let's just call them NNS

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. OK

@M.A.R. Obviously ridiculous ideas would likely show no research effort to understand the ideologies of the system, and thus eligible for regular downvotes under my proposed system.

M.A.R.

7

Q: Advice on rehabilitating an unpopular Meta question (or not)

I recently submitted an MSO discussion question. In very short order it has been downvoted to the point where it appears on the rogues gallery of downvoted questions (i.e. the last page of questions sorted by votes, with 50 per page). It also has by far the worst net-votes-to-total-views rating o...

support specific-question down-votes meta

And it's dupe master are good readings

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I don't think we're getting anywhere. I keep insisting it's too complex a system, and you keep insisting it's a good idea. It's of course a good idea in an ideal world, where everyone knows their place and how to vote. Plus, it's 4 a.m. man! :) I need sleep.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. Good night :)

Here's the conversation about it, @Shog9: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/conversation/…

Huh, I just discovered a bug in the chat system

Shog9

01:58

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm... Kinda exhausted. Give me the 1 sentence summary.

Catija

2 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

Rob

@Shog9 As far as I can gather; two voting systems for meta. One that affects reputation, one that doesn't.

Shog9

eh...

hard enough to get folks to use 1 voting system

Rob

In order to distinguish between an objectively bad question and a subjectively bad suggestion

Catija

I guess the idea is to make it so that people with low rep are less scared to post off the wall ideas on meta for fear of losing rep.

Shog9

02:10

I... kinda feel like rep is the least of the problems in that area

Folks tend to hate disemboweling criticism more than rep-loss

And... crickets more'n anything

Both of which are not infrequent

Catija

You also have the most rep on MSE... I'm not low rep here... but I admit to bouncing ideas off of people in the TL to see if I'm being stupid before asking.

Shog9

well, so do I. Why wouldn't you?

In a large group, do you jump on a chair as soon as an idea pops into your head and scream it at the room? Or do you talk to a friend standing nearby first?

Catija

That said... Not losing rep doesn't change that... I just posted a meta on IPS and I'm scared shitless how it's going to go even though I won't lose rep.

@Shog9 I've known people who do the former... both IRL and here...

John Dvorak

@Shog9 I'd love to see a community where everyone does this

Shog9

@Catija yeah. And boy howdy, don't it feel good to downvote them?

Catija

02:14

@Shog9 hahaha... yeah.

... I mean... no... that's terrible... poor people who don't think before they meta.

Shog9

Everyone thinks ideas are valuable. Like they're ounce-sized gold nuggets, and the hard work is just digging them out of the ground. But it's research and refinement that's worth something; ideas are more like bauxite: common, easy to obtain, expensive to refine.

user202362

why, you don't think your company's CEO should also keep a hobby pig farm? How could you, it's such a brilliant idea! </trollololo>

Catija

Eh... that's something that I've learned here... I've talked to people arguing over the finer points of how something should be implemented here and all I've ever realized is that the basic, general thoughts of what someone comes up with are probably all that's going to get implemented... y'all have so much to deal with on your end and put your own spin on things... we can talk through it all but we can't really direct what gets implemented in the end.

So, I try not to get too bogged down in the details. It's the general concept that's important.

Jon Ericson

02:37

@Shog9 We need more mules.

Shog9

I think we should be selling more shovels

who wants to buy a cryptocurrency site?

Catija

The market's flooded...

Even if you could sell one, you'd probably not get much for it.

Shog9

new plan: wait for them all to crash, buy up cheap video cards, sell them to gamers to drive traffic to Arqade

Catija

I still think you need to make the megabot site Cryptocurrency & Blockchain.

Shog9

fad.se

Audience: people interested in computers, the internet, and related things that will shortly go the way of the hula-hoop

Catija

02:46

Pogs...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive title detected: Ubuntu seems to have completely fucked my laptop's BIOS? by dandu3 on askubuntu.com

user202362

@JonEricson great idea, mules can be mistaken as unicorns too ... donkey might be cheaper but mules definitely look ... more majestic if you know what I mean ...

user202362

user202362

pattern recognition probably would return 97% match between a unicorn and a mule ...

Sensible Alexander

@TelautonomousKitty I really meant logarithm, like Skeet's reputation is just a mere 6 now...

user202362

02:57

makes sense, newbs starts with 0 (e^0 = 1)

user202362

I am on 3, which is half of max realised reps

John Dvorak

If you go by DNA, we're pretty close to paramecia

user202362

true, we are very close to paramecia DNA wise than to a piece of rock

John Dvorak

03:24

I'd rather replace all humans by paramecia than all paramecia by humans

Journeyman Geek

03:56

donkeys are adorable

Sensible Alexander

donkey kongs

Journeyman Geek

not sure they make kongs for donkeys, only dogs.

Sensible Alexander

uni kong!

Catija

Um... huh? meta.stackexchange.com/a/305906/284336 NAA?

Sensible Alexander

flagged as spam, since the linked site doesn't point to Bitcoin's official site, but a Spanish something site...

oh, according to "About Me", it's his site. spam.

!!/report meta.stackexchange.com/a/305906/284336

SmokeDetector

04:12

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Stack Exchange website for cryptocurrencies in general by Carlos Revilla Calcina on meta.SE

Feeds

05:00

The retina is the exposed surface of the brain, so if you think about a pot of gold while looking at a rainbow, then there's one at BOTH ends.

Sensible Alexander

There's a laptop in my eyes!

John Dvorak

I didn't know balls of rope had eyes

Shog9

maybe it's a potato rolled up in string?

SmokeDetector