Tavern on the Meta

12:00 AM

This is magnified for users like me without as much reputation, as the differences between levels are so little that the relative loss is magnified

M.A.R.

OK, that's a pretty bad idea

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. What is?

M.A.R.

Many are rightfully complaining that the downvote penalty is too low

If you take it away, there's no real way to tell newbie users that their idea is bad

No one listens to people in comments

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Think about the initial proposal about the licensing change. People upvoted it because they thought it was important and well-written, but disagreed with it in the comments. The SE team proceeded on because "85% of the votes were upvotes".

M.A.R.

OK OK, I'm confused. What's your proposal, again?

Isn't it about removing the penalty for downvotes on meta.SE?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:03 AM

@M.A.R. No, I haven't proposed anything yet. I will do so in just a second

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog well, this is exactly how it works. We usually discuss feature requests and whether they're cool, stupid or stellar before posting them

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog alright. So for a new voting system, you need to show why the current one is flawed

And you losing a bunch of rep isn't a good example

Because it's earned way more easier than it's lost

The reason this FR would fail, in my opinion, is the problem with the current system isn't drastic enough to urge change

And an increase in complication

Ha, we're already in a lot of trouble teaching people how to use the two frigging arrows.

Plus, your proposal isn't going to address the underlying issue you're unhappy about.

Now I feel like talking in a bathroom alone. And the sound is echoing.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

The current voting system makes people, especially those somewhere on the autism spectrum (like me), perplexed. "The question is clearly well-written and shows clear research effort, but just because you disagree with it it suddenly isn't written well enough and shows too little research effort. What is going on?"

Back in 2013, when I contributed here, this was absolutely perplexing for me. It took me a very long time to finally get it.

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog oh, you mean the tooltip?

187

Q: Change upvote/downvote tooltip on meta sites

Since voting on meta sites mean something different on the main sites, can you change the tooltip as well: This question is useful and clear --> I agree This question is unclear or not useful --> I disagree This answer is useful --> I agree This answer is not useful --> I disagree ...or somet...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. Not just the tooltip. It was confusing for me as to why feature-requests and other questions (including those on main sites) were held to different standards. I couldn't understand it.

M.A.R.

Well, it's a culture a community develops

Doesn't necessarily make sense

The only thing newer individuals like us can do is adapt

But I guess agreement/disagreement is the only sensible option for FRs

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:16 AM

@M.A.R. Being on the spectrum makes it more difficult for us to adapt.

M.A.R.

You just have to ensure what you're proposing is absolutely a good idea to avoid downvotes

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog well, you just found the secret to avoiding unpopular posts in the future

Discussing stuff in chat before posting them

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Look, what goes on in my mind is "hey, I had 127 steps to go before I get to see view counts. But just because I expressed an unpopular opinion, I've been thrown back two steps; now I need 129."

M.A.R.

I even discussed bugs here

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog you're looking at the empty space in the glass

It will obviously be disheartening

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Society tells us that we should speak our mind out if we disagree with something. But I, as well as several AS people I know both IRL and online, have had a life of being forced into the corner if we say something people disagree with. To us, it feels like the same thing is happening again.

I.e. it's part of the same pattern, not some isolated incident (because NTs a.k.a. non-AS people don't usually experience such a thing as a systemic pattern).

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog we can always speak our minds, but we should accept the consequences

I'm sorry for your condition. I'm personally suffering a rare illness.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:22 AM

I think this behavior of voting on FRs like this presents a genuine inclusivity problem. @Shog9 I think you should take a look into it

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I think you should take a look at some vote-related proposals here and on Meta.SO

This stuff you say has already been discussed a lot

And the result was either the OP was wrong or this system is the best we can come up with

There is also two things: 1, earning rep on meta.SE is super easy compared to other sites, so this works for you and you shouldn't complain

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. From what I can tell, no one has ever raised the issue of inclusivity for people like me.

M.A.R.

2, the privilege you wholeheartedly strive for isn't really something special

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. AS people have great ideas. Einstein was AS.

(I can't believe it, I keep striking Enter instead of ')

M.A.R.

You're free to open up a post about how tough the voting system can be on AS people

But I don't think anything can come of it

You haven't still proposed something that would be a better idea than the current system

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:28 AM

@M.A.R. Ideologically you shouldn't be losing your hard-earned rep just for suggesting something that is unpopular.

(Hold on a second as I write replies)

M.A.R.

Adding a layer of complexity only makes things harder, esp. for nonnative speakers and AS

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog OK

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. I can say, this behavior has had a chilling effect on my overall willingness to suggest ideas. Which is detrimental to a community where ideas should be free-flowing.

@M.A.R. I understand, especially seeing as the work on Channels, etc. has diverted resources from Q&A development.

27 mins ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Careful what you wish for. I don't want ridiculous ideas from people who don't know what they're talking about just because it's free-flowing. It's exactly what a voting system is meant to prevent. The most stupid ideas are posted anyway, because their OPs don't even know they don't know. But no, I don't want a flurry of ideas. I want few, good ideas.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. I think this would make things simpler. While the overall code would be more complex and it would be just a teeny bit more complex for NTs used to the current system, it would make things much simpler for AS people and perhaps for newer NTs. Regular votes would just be for quality, nothing else, everywhere. A separate set of dis/agreement votes would make things simpler to understand and not an outright mess for people like me.

(Done)

M.A.R.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog as I said, adding a layer of complexity only makes things harder for nonnative speakers. We can't teach them how to use one pair of votes. How would we teach them to use two?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:35 AM

@M.A.R. Nonnative English speakers, you mean?

M.A.R.

Yeah, I'm too lazy to type it all out

Let's just call them NNS

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. OK

@M.A.R. Obviously ridiculous ideas would likely show no research effort to understand the ideologies of the system, and thus eligible for regular downvotes under my proposed system.

M.A.R.

7

Q: Advice on rehabilitating an unpopular Meta question (or not)

I recently submitted an MSO discussion question. In very short order it has been downvoted to the point where it appears on the rogues gallery of downvoted questions (i.e. the last page of questions sorted by votes, with 50 per page). It also has by far the worst net-votes-to-total-views rating o...

support specific-question down-votes meta

And it's dupe master are good readings

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I don't think we're getting anywhere. I keep insisting it's too complex a system, and you keep insisting it's a good idea. It's of course a good idea in an ideal world, where everyone knows their place and how to vote. Plus, it's 4 a.m. man! :) I need sleep.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. Good night :)

Here's the conversation about it, @Shog9: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/conversation/…

Huh, I just discovered a bug in the chat system

Shog9

1:58 AM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm... Kinda exhausted. Give me the 1 sentence summary.

Catija

2 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

Rob

@Shog9 As far as I can gather; two voting systems for meta. One that affects reputation, one that doesn't.

Shog9

eh...

hard enough to get folks to use 1 voting system

Rob

In order to distinguish between an objectively bad question and a subjectively bad suggestion

Catija

I guess the idea is to make it so that people with low rep are less scared to post off the wall ideas on meta for fear of losing rep.

Shog9

2:10 AM

I... kinda feel like rep is the least of the problems in that area

Folks tend to hate disemboweling criticism more than rep-loss

And... crickets more'n anything

Both of which are not infrequent

Catija

You also have the most rep on MSE... I'm not low rep here... but I admit to bouncing ideas off of people in the TL to see if I'm being stupid before asking.

Shog9

well, so do I. Why wouldn't you?

In a large group, do you jump on a chair as soon as an idea pops into your head and scream it at the room? Or do you talk to a friend standing nearby first?

Catija

That said... Not losing rep doesn't change that... I just posted a meta on IPS and I'm scared shitless how it's going to go even though I won't lose rep.

@Shog9 I've known people who do the former... both IRL and here...

John Dvorak

@Shog9 I'd love to see a community where everyone does this

Shog9

@Catija yeah. And boy howdy, don't it feel good to downvote them?

Catija

2:14 AM

@Shog9 hahaha... yeah.

... I mean... no... that's terrible... poor people who don't think before they meta.

Shog9

Everyone thinks ideas are valuable. Like they're ounce-sized gold nuggets, and the hard work is just digging them out of the ground. But it's research and refinement that's worth something; ideas are more like bauxite: common, easy to obtain, expensive to refine.

user202362

why, you don't think your company's CEO should also keep a hobby pig farm? How could you, it's such a brilliant idea! </trollololo>

Catija

Eh... that's something that I've learned here... I've talked to people arguing over the finer points of how something should be implemented here and all I've ever realized is that the basic, general thoughts of what someone comes up with are probably all that's going to get implemented... y'all have so much to deal with on your end and put your own spin on things... we can talk through it all but we can't really direct what gets implemented in the end.

So, I try not to get too bogged down in the details. It's the general concept that's important.

Jon Ericson

2:37 AM

@Shog9 We need more mules.

Shog9

I think we should be selling more shovels

who wants to buy a cryptocurrency site?

Catija

The market's flooded...

Even if you could sell one, you'd probably not get much for it.

Shog9

new plan: wait for them all to crash, buy up cheap video cards, sell them to gamers to drive traffic to Arqade

Catija

I still think you need to make the megabot site Cryptocurrency & Blockchain.

Shog9

fad.se

Audience: people interested in computers, the internet, and related things that will shortly go the way of the hula-hoop

Catija

2:46 AM

Pogs...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive title detected: Ubuntu seems to have completely fucked my laptop's BIOS? by dandu3 on askubuntu.com

user202362

@JonEricson great idea, mules can be mistaken as unicorns too ... donkey might be cheaper but mules definitely look ... more majestic if you know what I mean ...

user202362

user202362

pattern recognition probably would return 97% match between a unicorn and a mule ...

Sensible Alexander

@TelautonomousKitty I really meant logarithm, like Skeet's reputation is just a mere 6 now...

user202362

2:57 AM

makes sense, newbs starts with 0 (e^0 = 1)

user202362

I am on 3, which is half of max realised reps

John Dvorak

If you go by DNA, we're pretty close to paramecia

user202362

true, we are very close to paramecia DNA wise than to a piece of rock

John Dvorak

3:24 AM

I'd rather replace all humans by paramecia than all paramecia by humans

Journeyman Geek

3:56 AM

donkeys are adorable

Sensible Alexander

donkey kongs

Journeyman Geek

not sure they make kongs for donkeys, only dogs.

Sensible Alexander

uni kong!

Catija

Um... huh? meta.stackexchange.com/a/305906/284336 NAA?

Sensible Alexander

flagged as spam, since the linked site doesn't point to Bitcoin's official site, but a Spanish something site...

oh, according to "About Me", it's his site. spam.

!!/report meta.stackexchange.com/a/305906/284336

SmokeDetector

4:12 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Stack Exchange website for cryptocurrencies in general by Carlos Revilla Calcina on meta.SE

Feeds

5:00 AM

The retina is the exposed surface of the brain, so if you think about a pot of gold while looking at a rainbow, then there's one at BOTH ends.

Sensible Alexander

There's a laptop in my eyes!

John Dvorak

I didn't know balls of rope had eyes

Shog9

maybe it's a potato rolled up in string?

SmokeDetector

5:17 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer: Invite Friend Through Social Links for Magento 2 by Praveen Chelumalla on magento.SE

SmokeDetector

5:40 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Which exchange should I trust to provide ether price in USD? by Rom on ethereum.SE

SmokeDetector

6:13 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: Developing new dapp- Looking for smart contract and dapp developer by Badet on ethereum.SE

SmokeDetector

7:04 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in URL answer: Is it safe to leave a gas oven on unattended? by TinaMcClelland on cooking.SE

Journeyman Geek

7:15 AM

@SensibleAlexander that must hurt a lot

SmokeDetector

8:18 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: How do I politely explain to my neighbour that I don't feel comfortable being alone with her in her house while my kids play? by don'tbesodumb on interpersonal.SE

Sensible Alexander

9:02 AM

Why there's no deep earth exploration, compared to deep space exploration?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Does "course" include "seminar"? by Nick Goe on ell.SE

Sensible Alexander

10:39 AM

> How to Store Authentication Data in a Database. Part 5

> ... In this article, we’ll look at two approaches to this and the implementation of one solution. In particular, we’ll consider:

> - How Stack Overflow handles multiple accounts

Nice to see SO as a study case :)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 That's not the correct summary; just a potential proposal I came up with on the side. The correct summary is this: I believe that the current voting system on meta presents a genuine inclusivity issue for people like me.

Sensible Alexander

78

Q: Downvotes on Meta are confusing: do they *really* mean poor-post quality, or just disagreement?

I realize that this is specifically addressed in "What is "meta"? How does it work?": Voting is different on meta. Like normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta allows members to vote on questions and answers. For most posts, votes reflect the perceived usefulness: well-written, well-reasoned, ...

discussion down-votes voting meta

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@SensibleAlexander It's less of a problem on per-site metas since no rep changes are taking place.

Back in 2013-2014, I'd often post what I predicted were bad ideas onto Meta Super User instead.

Those of you commenting on what I'm saying or the proposal on the side: please read the full conversation to get the full context

Sensible Alexander

10:56 AM

Ah, reputation... then I guess this? (back then when MSO is still the mother meta)

16

Q: The reputation system on Meta Stack Overflow is somewhat weird to understand

After spending some time on Meta Stack Overflow, I realized the voting system here is completely different. The votes are used for agreement or disagreement toward the question/request and the answer itself instead of quality. However, by downvoting a post, it will also decrease one's reputation ...

feature-request reputation down-votes meta

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@SensibleAlexander Please read: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/conversation/…

Sensible Alexander

I tried hard to understand the conversation: so, you want to have another voting system for feature request that doesn't affect rep?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@SensibleAlexander I was just tossing around that idea. Read the second half of the conversation, which explains how the current voting system (IMO) disenfranchises AS people. Starting here: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6620872#6620872

Sensible Alexander

11:15 AM

I'm sorry to hear about your condition. Anyway, I failed to find any posts related to voting system and AS on MSE. Feel free to post, I'm not sure I can comment further.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

11:29 AM

@Shog9 Read the second part of the conversation to better understand my plight. Start with the message linked above.

Sensible Alexander

12:19 PM

TGIF! Now, to hunt for meta drama...

SmokeDetector

12:47 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer: A soft floor cover to use with a standing desk by Mat on lifehacks.SE

Sensible Alexander

I'm now curious to the recent anon editor on Anime & Manga...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

1:06 PM

@SensibleAlexander Not me. If anything, I'd likely be editing under my actual account.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: How can I upscale a low-res image to make it appear higher-res? by Sasha Savsunenko on photo.SE

Optimus Prime

1:26 PM

0

Q: Unknown characters in developer story date

In the developer story section, 3 unicode characters are appearing just before the date. ( red freehand circles in image) while inspecting, it seems like chrome misinterpret the spaces to the unicode characters Chrome V 63 "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (K...

bug developer-story

a post after few months

!!/blame all hedgehogs

SmokeDetector

@OptimusPrime It's Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog's fault.

Optimus Prime

good catch

> oops seems like it's not happening on incognito. I think one of the extension convert the separator dot to this character. deleting post... – Sagar V 12 secs ago edit

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

2:41 PM

Thanks @rene for the dupehammer.

@rene If you could please add meta.stackexchange.com/questions/47634/… to the duplicate list that would be very nice.

@ShadowtheHedgehog ^^

rene

3:00 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog serious? Because I have doubts now that they edited.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@rene Hence my suggestion afterwards to add that other question to the duplicates list.

rene

Ok, I've done that.

Is there anything else I need to do / comment / suggest on that question?

Left another comment. I'm done for now

and i have work to do, I'm out

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Nope, that's it, @rene. Thank you very much!

Shadow the Hedgehog Wizard

Good job, @rene ;)

Sensible Alexander

3:16 PM

Ugh... Yume Nikki's discussion forum on Steam is a trainwreck

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in body: How could SEARCHING for AUDIO CLIPS be improved? by noVaSon on sound.SE

SmokeDetector

3:41 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in URL answer: Does Hunspell dictionaries work in Pycharm and others Jetbrains products? by Olga Strizhenko on askubuntu.com

Sensible Alexander

sd f

she's a software engineer from JetBrain

SmokeDetector

4:41 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in body: How to Recover Exchange File by Kagas George on security.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer: How to you prevent someone from getting a "new free trial period" by just creating a new login? by Louis Litt on webmasters.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: How can I connect a kinect to my raspberry pi by Jarret Quincel on raspberrypi.SE

SmokeDetector

6:18 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: How to add nofollow on all external links without plugin? by Sarkari Result on wordpress.SE

Optimus Prime

6:41 PM

Like A Boss

SmokeDetector

6:56 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in body, blacklisted user: How could SEARCHING for AUDIO CLIPS be improved? by noVaSon on sound.SE

Shog9

8:29 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog look, I'm not trying to be rude... But I really do not have the time. If you want to have a conversation, then begin a conversation don't throw me a link to a conversation with someone else; I have plenty of those to read already. If you just want to make a point and have folks read and consider it, then kick off a meta discussion in which you state your argument and present evidence to support it.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 Okay, I'll do that in a little while. But I did post a summary here: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6621379#6621379

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog there's no rationale for that.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 What do you mean?

Shog9

every group presents an "inclusivity issue" for anyone not in that group; they must either address the group as an outsider or find a way to become part of the group, and neither one is trivial.

Why is meta especially difficult for you vs. someone who just joined Stack Overflow to ask a question vs. a newly-hired co-worker of mine vs. a reporter for NYMag?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 Truth is, I've been holding off on making such a post because it could be perceived as just a rant. I saw you edited someone's similar post about a mental health issue, which was at first perceived as a rant as well.

Shog9

8:34 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I do things like that hoping others see them and learn from it

When I show up a few hours late and make such an edit, there's little chance of altering the course of the question I'm editing - at best it's a long shot. But it sets an example for those who might wish to do better in their own questions or offer aid to the next problematic question they see posted.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Also, before posting it, I want more community input to be absolutely sure I'm not just repeating something that's been already addressed

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog read this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/272607/…

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 The accepted answer doesn't really address reputation.

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog because it's mostly irrelevant

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

On per-site metas, your reputation doesn't change. But on MSE, your reputation goes down if you propose something unpopular, which has a few things wrong with it: 1. you can get privileges taken away and be set further away from future ones just for proposing something unpopular, even if you did your research and wrote the request well, 2. the voting system is especially confusing for autists because (chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/89?m=6620872#6620872), and 3...

Shog9

8:43 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog the fallacy there is assuming that something is well-researched and well-written and folks are downvoting it for reasons that are outside of the control of the author

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

3. we AS people have had a life of being pushed away from groups and losing social standing for proposing unpopular things in real life, and it has a chilling effect on our willingness to come up with ideas. This voting system is basically a reflection of that.

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog so why do you want to propose unpopular things on meta?

Catija

You said you were worried about it looking like a rant... if you follow those guidelines, you're going to avoid that... which means that, even if people disagree with you, you'll probably get fewer downvotes, more upvotes and less damage to your reputation... but there are lots of questions on MSE about getting rid of rep on MSE entirely or changing penalties for downvotes...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 What about this answer? Isn't that an exact reflection of that?

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog why do you think that answer is well-written?

what point did you wish to convey with it?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

8:47 PM

@Shog9 I don't want to propose unpopular things. I just don't want this fate to befall on ideas that just end up being not-so-well-received.

If I know something will be unpopular, I'd just mark it as CW to ensure I don't lose rep

...or propose it on a per-site meta

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog this puts the cart before the horse. Generally-speaking, a universally-unpopular idea will not be implemented; more broadly, a largely-unpopular proposal will do little to further the cause it seeks to support - thus it's safe to say that even if the cause is eventually adopted, it will be in spite of the proposal not because of it.

Therefore, if you support an idea but are at a loss as to how to garner support for it... You're better off saying nothing until you arrive at a persuasive argument.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 What would you think of this system (chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/89?m=6620851#6620851)?

Shog9

21 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I would propose this: the normal set of votes would be used solely to indicate quality, as they are for main sites and support questions on meta sites, while we would introduce a new, separate set of "agreement/disagreement" votes that wouldn't affect reputation in any way.

(you can quote messages by posting a link to them on a line by themselves - this saves a good deal of time)

Catija

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog That's the one I quoted yesterday that you said wasn't what you were actually proposing...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I don't like splitting messages

Catija

8:51 PM

I don't like having to open new tabs to read messages...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Catija I didn't say that. I said it wasn't my summary. @Shog9 had asked for a summary.

Aaron Hall

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog maybe I'm out of steam for the day but I glanced this answer over and I have no idea what you wrote there. Your penchant for linking without quoting is probably killing you.

Shog9

FYI, I'm dividing my time between this conversation and tending to a script that's locking all ID questions on Movies & TV, so I much appreciate anything that removes further distractions

now...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

6 mins ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 What about this answer? Isn't that an exact reflection of that?

The answer linked here, @AaronHall?

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I addressed this above:

8 mins ago, by Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog the fallacy there is assuming that something is well-researched and well-written and folks are downvoting it for reasons that are outside of the control of the author

Aaron Hall

8:52 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog yeah, you write a lot and I'm not sure what you want.

Shog9

presenting an effective argument is more than just making sure an argument can be extracted from a wall of text by a sufficiently-patient reader

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

20 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@M.A.R. Obviously ridiculous ideas would likely show no research effort to understand the ideologies of the system, and thus eligible for regular downvotes under my proposed system.

canon

@Shog9 you're allowed to write to the database?

Shog9

@canon by virtue of established mod tool routes...

canon

ah

Catija

8:53 PM

@Shog9 Exciting!

Nah... people can research stuff and draw the wrong conclusions and then come up with ridiculous ideas just fine.

Shog9

Folks often suppose that voting on meta behaves differently from voting on all the other sites. That readers are evaluating posts which they find informative and moving, and then tossing aside this evaluation to vote on some other metric. I have not observed this to be the case.

canon

on meta, I regularly vote based on RFHC

Shog9

Folks vote for many reasons, but generally they do so consistently: a reader who seeks a solution to a problem will vote for a post that provides that solution and perhaps vote against a post that misleads them or otherwise wastes their time. This is true on meta as it is elsewhere.

Aaron Hall

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Try 1) summing up (intro and conclusion). 2) using bullet points. 3) using terse, shorter sentences. 4) using one-sentence paragraphs. 5) using descriptive headings. 6) editing out redundancy.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 Doesn't that only really apply to support questions?

Shog9

8:56 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog no

Catija

@AaronHall And bold text.

Shog9

A reader who appreciates a given writing style will tend to reward that style and punish those that do not appeal to them.

Aaron Hall

@Catija only when absolutely necessary for emphasis.

Catija

@AaronHall But it's so much fun to use random **bold* markup!

Shog9

A reader who likes an idea will reward a post that presents justification for that idea with which they can agree... And punish a post that presents an abhorrent or confusing justification.

Aaron Hall

8:57 PM

@Catija If everything is important then nothing is...

Shog9

...I used to joke that a certain regular author on MSE was a great boon to the site as he would often propose previously-popular ideas but present them in a style that was engineered to be polarizing and belittling, with justifications that were unappealing to most users of the site.

He could thus turn a popular but flawed idea into an unpopular one simply by proposing it in his usual manner.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 Me under my previous (2013) incarnartion?

Catija

@AaronHall Everything is important on SE.

Shog9

This particular situation predates that by several years, though I'll allow it is hardly the domain of a single author

Aaron Hall

@Catija That's how I reason it... :D

rene

9:00 PM

@AdamLear not sure why this needed migration? I assume there is just one Prettify build that you use across all sites that have Prettify enabled. Which make such requests on-topic for MSE, right?

Aaron Hall

@Shog9 On another note... like how I rescued Wes's answer? :)

Shog9

@AaronHall yes. Good work!

Aaron Hall

is smugly self-satisfied

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 @AaronHall @Catija OK, I'll use the advice offered to make a discussion post about AS inclusivity and the voting system after thinking about it some more.

Shog9

To your other point above though, @SonictheAnonymousHedgehog: it is often the case that AS folks struggle to perceive or grant sufficient weight to social conventions. This can be a serious hurdle to social acceptance... But not necessarily an insurmountable one.

Aaron Hall

9:02 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I have gathered you want a second set of voting buttons for people to indicate agreement versus quality?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@AaronHall Yes

Anyway, I'm curious about something. Which Sonic character is @Shog9 most like (cc @Shadow @Zoe)

Adam Lear

@rene Yes and no. If it requires a plugin, those are sometimes enabled per-site. But honestly I didn't think too hard about it, mostly just saw "Stack Overflow" and moved it over. It could go either way, as I think about it now, but meh.

Aaron Hall

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I think it's not gonna happen. And our time is better spent on positive things we can make happen.

John Dvorak

given his unusual morphology, my WAG is Dr. Robotnik

or rather, one of Robotnik's creations

Zoe the Wolf

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm not familiar enough with the series to answer that :D interesting question though :D

Shog9

9:04 PM

It becomes all the more critical not to mislead them: it is critical to realize that voting and reputation exist as a sideshow, not as an end-goal. Persuasive writing is achievable for many classified as AS, though often with much more difficulty than would afflict others; it is important that they not be misled into thinking that when interacting with a group their hurdle lies elsewhere.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JohnDvorak Metal Sonic?

John Dvorak

The head part thereof

rene

@AdamLear Hmm, okay. Didn't know about the per-site plugins. Thanks.

Shog9

This is why I grit my teeth when I hear folks dismissing a post's issues as "voting is different on meta" - it deprives the author of a chance of success by blaming it on a faceless monster.

2

Of course, this is true to some extent for everyone, and thus all stand to benefit by removing misleading messaging from the system.

Aaron Hall

Moves the cheese, huh?

Changing a message is something we can definitely make happen.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

9:06 PM

Considering he answered every single one of my meta questions, and is very helpful, he's just like Amy Rose. (Not that I have any interest.)

Catija

Part of the issue with "voting is different on meta" is that it's really not meant (from what I understand) to apply to all posts...

Support and bug issues and maybe even some discussions should be based on the question not agreement with what is asked.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Catija Agreed

Shog9

@Catija and, that's how we wrote it up the last time we addressed this: meta.stackexchange.com/help/whats-meta

...but I suspect the nuance is lost

Catija

But it just doesn't work out that way. On meta IPS, people vote based on agreement regardless of the tags.

Shog9

Yes - if folks think the post is presenting a referendum, they will vote accordingly regardless of tag.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

9:08 PM

@Catija That's a per-site meta. Voting patterns are 50% less important there because there is no rep at stake.

Shog9

Which is a good reason not to structure your post that way if that's not what you're looking for.

Catija

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog You really can't just pull numbers like that out of nowhere.

I mean... you can... but it doesn't help the discussion at all.

Shog9

If you want to gauge the community's opinions on a matter, ask for their opinions - don't present your own and ask for disagreement.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Catija It's called a conjecture. But I wasn't planning to talk about that much in my post.

Shog9

OTOH, if you're determined to jump on a soapbox... Accept that you may be shouted down.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

9:09 PM

7 mins ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 @AaronHall @Catija OK, I'll use the advice offered to make a discussion post about AS inclusivity and the voting system after thinking about it some more.

Catija

@Shog9 Yes. That's my preferred method of action on meta. Make a statement that's neutral.

canon

My preferred method of action is... inaction.

Aaron Hall

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I hope you're happy my friend...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I planned on doing exactly that. If anything, I'd propose the new voting system afterwards in a separate request.

Shog9

@Catija I rather like the soapbox thing, but... I've also gotten shouted down a few times.

Catija

9:10 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog No. It's not conjecture at all. Several times it's been noted that the rep is irrelevant... I don't like being downvoted on child metas any more than on MSE, regardless of rep loss.

@Shog9 Well... I don't like being shouted at.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

We AS people are very literal in our speech, generally.

Shog9

I don't like working, but I do like getting paid. Some things in life have tradeoffs.

*everything

Catija

The difficulty is when no one else is asking the question so you have to
1. ask it neutrally and hope someone else will say what you want to say.
2. ask it neutrally and self answer.
3. soapbox.

Shog9

4. all of the above

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shog9 Haha

Anyway, @Shog9 what Sonic character are you most like?

Catija

9:13 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog As someone who always takes things literally - you're not the only one. Some people just don't get humor/sarcasm/etc, regardless of diagnosed conditions.

Shog9

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog you tell me

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7 mins ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Considering he answered every single one of my meta questions, and is very helpful, he's just like Amy Rose. (Not that I have any interest.)

Shog9

well, there it is then

Catija

@Shog9 overachiever.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Maybe we should all rename ourselves to Sonic characters. @Shadow did too, @Zoe plans to rename herself to "Rouge the Bat" provided the results of her poll don't drastically change...

@Shadow what do you think?

Catija

9:19 PM

You'll have to pry my username out of my cold dead hands?

John Dvorak

Your username can be changed with a single word from any moderator

Catija

@JohnDvorak ... I am a moderator?

John Dvorak

That only supports my claim :P

Catija

Apparently I'm really fond of ending statements with a question mark right now.

I can change my username more than anyone and I still refuse to do so... is what I'm saying.

Shog9

rename: Catija -> CahTeeJah

John Dvorak

9:23 PM

understood

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Catija Apparently you didn't catch the word "maybe".

Catija

@Shog9 ... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Shog9

CotYeah

Catija

@Shog9 I will pull up that artwork I made and posted in the TL featuring yourself.

... if I can find it.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm curious... what's the interest in Sonic, anyway?

@Shog9 ... well... it's closer, anyway.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Catija It started out from a simple message (when I was still called gparyani) where I kept calling Shadow Wizard "Shadow the Hedgehog". He then changed his username to "Shadow the Hedgehog Wizard". Later, he put up a poll asking for his future username.

In a bid to keep him named that, I changed my username to "Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog". Apparently my plan ended up working, and the top vote was to keep him named after Shadow the Hedgehog.

Given that, and given that the top result on @Zoe's poll is to rename her to another Sonic character, I just commented that maybe we should all change our names to Sonic characters

Catija

9:33 PM

Ah, I see.

SmokeDetector

10:19 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in body: How could SEARCHING for AUDIO CLIPS be improved? by noVaSon on sound.SE

Catija

10:53 PM

Happy hour in the tavern... the place to not be.

M.A.R.

That's exactly why I'm here

.