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12:00 AM
@KirtiThorat I see you've been lurking for quite a while
Nothing wrong with lurking
@JourneymanGeek That wasn't a complaint
Welcome @Catija, thanks for joining us. :)
12:13 AM
congrat @Catija :)
This room has been inexplicably busy lately:
So, as is my tradition, I'm pouring oil on a squeaky wheel in hope of staving off the need replace a bearing
its normal, you predited it shog when I joined! doomed the room is :P
@Shog9 What were the jumps in 2016? Was that when the townhalls were a thing?
Well... I don't know whether to be honored or scared. Thanks for the welcome and the trust. :)
Oh, you don’t want to know what happened to the others.
12:23 AM
At least to my knowledge, we've only had one room owner delete their account shortly after becoming one...
Congrats on choosing by the way, @bjb568.
@Shog9 I volunteer as tribute
I will be the leader we don't need
12:29 AM
read up...
@Catija Nice to see you're an RO now
...and we have intrusion again
@Shog9 I'll be your squeaky wheel :(
I'll believe it when I see it
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog dude, what?
12:32 AM
Not quite sure what that means @Shog9
Hah. I volunteered to be a janitor :p
@JourneymanGeek Check the icons
On mobile. And I don't see why you need to make a big deal of people lurking :(
oh hey, from near my old home town
@Shog9 What is that?
12:35 AM
wonder if they still have "happy Joe's pizza"
I volunteered for the beer on my side
@Fred-ii-: Maybe I'll try this next time a girl says 'no' twice ;) — The Blue Dog Apr 15 '14 at 17:50
And this is why we delete comments...
Well i want to do this for a girl i like so when the question is "Do you like me she cannot press NO" — camin10 May 6 '14 at 18:52
I don't think this is deleteable, but some of these are kinda sad.
12:40 AM
Hard to judge without knowing the context of the question
Irrelevant to the question? Absolutely
I just meant the whole premise of creating a program to tell someone you like them and not allowing them to press no.
@hichris123 Pretty disappointing to see some of the comments you've flagged have somehow managed to stay on the site for years
unfortunately comments dont have the same visibility questions do
Yeah, I think at least some of it can be explained by low traffic posts as well.
But still, not good.
12:55 AM
Def. I'm willing to bet a majority of the comments occur after the main public visibility dies away (assumeing low rated post for this example)
Some of these make you wonder what the backstory is:
ok I will try to help you later, but now I have to rescue my girlfriend — AlFra May 13 '16 at 11:28
How on earth are you finding these?
SEDE searches for keywords like "girl", "women", etc.
@hichris123 and he came back and answered
12:59 AM
@SterlingArcher data.stackexchange.com
Stack exchange data explorer
ah thank you
Oh wow neat, the entire DB schema is exposed
Well, maybe not all of it
Most of it
Yeah, it's everything available in the data dump (for the most part).
And it's slightly stale data
1:01 AM
How often is it updated? It can't be live for obvious reasons I supposed?
I believe it's every Sunday
Hello, short question: if I open a CV review question in a new tab and then edit it, will it still be kicked out of the queue? (wasn't in the help center)
What do you mean by "kicked out of the queue"?
sorry, I meant not being available to review anymore in the CV queue
1:10 AM
For you or someone else?
@GaurangTandon meta.stackexchange.com/questions/162034/… suggests the answer is yes, but I'm not entirely sure.
for everyone, just like it happens when you click the Edit button present in the CV review UI
@hichris123 hmm, nice link! it doesn't still mention editing in new tab though :(
@GaurangTandon Yeah, my assumption was that the post was referring to editing the post from outside the queue, but I can't tell if that's correct.
@hichris123 yes, but that link has helped me for the time being. so thanks!
That's somewhat disappointing... I've seen a lot of users make just textual/grammatical fixes to a bad question - a valid edit - but it's not really "fixing" the question. I don't really agree that should remove it from the queue. If the edit is actually useful, the rest of the reviewers should see that and vote "leave open", so it should drop out of the queue anyway.
1:17 AM
I just discoved smokey webportal report, it's really nice
@Catija yep, that's what I think as well
I'll also say that I had no clue that editing would do that, so now I feel guilty for slowing down the close process on questions that needed it... it makes me less interested in editing and I'm a pretty high-volume editor.
@Catija Have you considered reviewing it, then going out of the queue to make the edit?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog That's what we're talking about... there's no indication that only edits in review have this effect.
@Catija i'll probably keep an eye out the next time I do an edit outside the CV review UI
and get back here with the results
1:23 AM
A bit unrelated: I don't like Peter Mortensen making just grammar edits to questions within five days of closure, as it sends them to the reopen queue; that creates extra work for us and deprives the post author of their chance to get the post reopened
I wonder if I can check histories on one of the sites I mod.
Review histories?
By the way, how did you get RO privileges? Did Shog just give them to you, or did you ask somewhere?
@GaurangTandon No. Only edits from within the close queue dequeue.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog eh. He fixes everything he can, everywhere.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog it's a drop in the ocean
silly to worry about it
1:25 AM
There is a certain value in that.
@Shog9 oh, thanks, that solves it!
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Frustrating on time tracking by George Mihailoff on softwareengineering.SE
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You were prodding about it yesterday (I think) and I made a comment about it... but I was as surprised as anyone else.
Yeah, I've always wanted it so I could see deleted Smokey messages for context, since my proposal to not delete those messages failed
By the way, did you vote in that poll?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog No.
1:33 AM
@Catija If you did vote, which option would you have preferred? goo.gl/forms/7oDpj2bF2kUoOpp53
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'd really like you to stop pestering me about this.
This is the third time.
At least.
No point, because the poll is already closed in favor of keeping the status quo.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Then WHY are you pestering me if it doesn't matter?
(I just opened it so you could see it)
I didn't ask you to vote, I just asked you a curious question
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Just say "Sorry, I won't"... and stop arguing please. I'm pretty sure that we've asked you multiple times to stop trying to justify your actions when people ask you to stop.
1:42 AM
Alright, sorry, I won't. I'll tell you what was going on in my mind: you asked "why", so my natural inclination is to take it literally and answer that question.
11 mins ago, by Catija
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'd really like you to stop pestering me about this.
The "why" was rhetorical.
I'll be honest: I've had a lot of trouble telling these types of questions apart. Also, occasionally, my judgment is clouded when I feel that a person shouldn't be feeling angered or pestered about something I did.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog which is a lot of the time
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you have that last thing in common with a LOT of people on meta right now
And that exact same dialog has happened with me in real life as well.
1:56 AM
also a lot of employees... mods... Probably some small furry animals from alpha centauri
I hear hamsters originated from there
Oh my god 1997?
begs the question whether the origin of octopus is indeed alien
Yep. The baby whose mother played Hampster Dance 24/7 for 9 months is nearly able to take their first legal drink. And boy are they ready for it.
2:02 AM
New archer is on :D
@SterlingArcher Last week was good.
for a first episode where all the characters had to be introduced...
I was a little confused but the season premise has me excited
Now, since we're in the presence of a sufficiently mixed crowd, if anyone wants to head to Sonic's Den, I can discuss the specific issues I've been facing and problems that I think need fixing here on SE.
Also @Catija I'll be honest with you: the main reason I wanted to meet up with you again is because I feel like I have no one to talk to about my feelings about inclusivity and how I've been feeling a bit marginalized here. But I understand that you don't have much time for that on your hands.
(So I won't ask you about it)
In the meantime, here's another instance of me just being me:
A: A New (2018) Update To Our Terms Of Service Is Here

Sonic the Inclusive HedgehogIn section 10d, there is a typo: "Modifictions":

2:19 AM
How to utilize self love - building constructive backlinks by strategically talking about various companies on social media.
I am very happy these two day - life is like real life chess game, strategies I put in place years or months ahead has starting to show new effectiveness. I estimated the success rate has increase from 8% to 13%. With more careful planning and effort I might even win! P.S. I am not talking about Stackoverflow or SE.
Here's one way the arbitration clause is abusive: if Stack Overflow massively screws up and, say, leaks every bit of personal data it has on anyone through gross negligence, joining a class action lawsuit against them would be free. With the arbitration clause, we would have to individually go through arbitration, which looks like it would cost each of us at least $250 per person just to initiate. They're basically invulnerable that way. They have much less incentive to uphold their responsibilities. — user2357112 7 mins ago
well, you know how chess goes... One day you're winning, the next day a cat has jumped on the board and your pieces are all on the floor.
@Shog9 That's how many users feel about the new 4-month closing policy on Area 51 being applied retroactively
that's for inferior chess players ... cat is calculated as part of external environment
2:28 AM
also, strategy planning is like sailing - you can't control the wind, but as long as you got the prediction of general direction right, you can always do micro adjustment
2:41 AM
I am talking about 3 totally different things, 3 totally unrelated things. Has good brain and education is great!
I've just mailed in my arbitration opt-out letter. Will those who mail in opt-outs get a response in the mail?
We should have a badge or something. A companion to "not a robot" - mail in your letter, get an "I am not a lawyer" badge
2:59 AM
So the letter from TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration Department of Health) ends with:
This response is general information given to you without prejudice; it is not
binding on the TGA and you should get your own independent legal advice to ensure
that all of the legislative requirements are met.
talking about getting sued ...
hilarious - husky quarreling with a samoyed
3:46 AM
@Shog9 Real answer please
@Shog9 Could you please clear the migration history on meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309752/…? It was an ephemeral issue that should be closed as no longer reproducible, but if it gets closed, it will become a rejected migration
4:27 AM
Now, what the STC means? — Braiam 9 hours ago
It stands for "Shocks The Conscience", @Braiam. I'll leave its functionality to your imagination. — Shog9 ♦ 9 hours ago
I think we need that button for ourselves!
@Derpy Nirvana.... reminds me of the movie "Thus Have I Heard"
4:43 AM
I try to tell people our wildlife are not cute and cuddly...
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Dividing paper after Reject & Resubmit decision by a deleted user on academia.SE
those bounty troller...
@YvetteColomb Kangaroos :O Did you capture pictures of 'em ?
5:06 AM
\o morning
5:41 AM
o/ nightish
6:05 AM
@YvetteColomb Aren't roos really muscular and have a massively strong kick?
I remember seeing a picture...
Not like a Bruce Lee kick though, more of like the way a cat kicks at something it has in its grasp.
@TravisJ Welcome to the internet, where it's always morning :p
Thank you. Finally. No one has ever officially welcomed me to the internet.
I think roos are indeed muscular and have strong kick (and punch)
I remember tekken 3 in the arcade... I wont say when.
6:38 AM
From my reading of the new TOS SE is blatantly in violation of the GDPR
what isn't?
idk, I'd like to think my company isn't, although it's been a fight and we don't really process data beyond our newsletter (which we discontinued) and applications
the data protection requirements for applications alone are ridiculous
I have a sneaking suspicion that even talking to strangers on the street is in violation of the GDPR.
I have to admit... I don't really care about TOS SE as long as they don't annoy me...
I wonder - can I, as permitted to by GDPR, request that Stack Exchange forgets everything about me - including any suspensions, q-bans, IP-bans, past accounts... and start anew with a clean slate? Say, once every six questions or so?
6:50 AM
@JohnDvorak Yes
IP addresses in any context count as PII
You can also require that Stack exchange sends you everything they have on you, including anything that can be related to your person, like user annotations and internal notes about you. You can also require that Stackexchange tell you exactly how they process this data internally, who has access to it, and how long they store it. You can also revoke your consent to them storing it at any time
Including the exact Qban algorithm?
I think there's a provision about not disclosing software secret but it's vague so maybe
remember IANAL
Now if you would please tell me exactly what you think about me and how it affects your interactions with humans, then promptly forget that I ever existed and asked you this.
Boy, this would make life sooo much easier for criminals if it worked IRL.
7:00 AM
@JohnDvorak You're like an owl, and I don't interact with owls.
like that? :/
That's specieist. :P
opens twitter
funny thing with terms and conditions is for european users, visiting the website does not constitute agreement and the terms claiming that makes them void as a whole anyways
If you want to request data, you have to prove who you are first. That request, along with all proof, and the response, will be kept by the company for as long as they please.
7:12 AM
@TravisJ That request itself is subject to PII regulations, so no
@JourneymanGeek To be fair, it should also be added that the various chat rooms often can be very different. I mean - take the RPG network site ones - they are probably one of the nicest and most welcoming room I found on the site. Then you have rooms that the staff had to close - multiple times.
No, it isn't. It is a legal action.
The GDPR makes no distinction between PII saved for legal reasons or not
All legal actions can be kept indefinitely.
The only thing is you can keep it longer and you can deny deletion requests if there's a law requiring you to deny them
But you have burden of proof on proving that
7:15 AM
Meh, you are pretty far off. But, that's not my issue.
If you want to go on thinking you can twist company's arms you have another thing coming.
@TravisJ I'm in the opposite position
(dpo of a company)
The true intent of these laws are to punish companies who suffer data breaches of their user data. The jurisdiction really could not care less about users on an individual basis. They are interested in the revenue from fines.
Well yeah, but vindictive users can kick that off
You can be fined $20M per violation if they feel like it
hand waving.
I don't buy either of those statements.
So... if I'm not able to prove that a law requires me to do something, I'm already breaking a law if I do it as well as if I don't? That's awesome!
7:18 AM
Well the 20M figure is directly from the text of the law (or 4% of global total revenue for a year, if that's bigger)
The GDPR is so vague and hard to comply with that I feel like it'll just be used to assess fines against companys the regulators dislike for one reason or another
which would make SE safe from GDPR's wrath, I hope
The german implementation of it (BDSG-neu) is another can of worms
Governing bodies are getting pretty tired of companies that lose millions of user's data and then go "oops, we will do better next time". With this law, next time means monetary consequence.
Without losing data though, I don't think any companies will be fined.
The intent of GDPR is awesome, there's no denying that
7:21 AM
Filing false, or outrageous, claims against highly popular data properties will only serve to undermine the law.
One loss in court and the whole thing goes under.
@Derpy and then there's an image board...
hopefully that will lead to GDPR being revised to be less vague, rather than being abandoned or used as a weapon against civillians.
7:23 AM
I'm looking for guidance on which site to post a question, the question is roughly "Can mutagens such as radiation increase the rate of evolution?", thoughts?
I was thinking of the skeptics site
The answer is yes. Next? :D
Naively, I thought Biology... Skeptics needs notable references for the question to be accepted.
To add some details, what I'm curious about is there's a lot of sci-fi in which mutagens make something evolve at an extreme rate and obviously most of those writers are just pulling stuff out of their ass but I'm curious about if there's any case where there's strong evidence that this is true
7:26 AM
worldbuilding might work
if you're building a world, that is
I'm not building a world, but maybe that's not a bad suggestion, it seems like they are cool with those sort of questions
Well, evolution in what sense?
@TravisJ source? ;-D
Please link me to the question when you post it
@TravisJ Good question, it's hard to define precisely, maybe a good precise definition is if you were trying to evolve a group of bacteria to achieve some task, is there any evidence that you would benefit from adding some mutagen?
@JohnDvorak will do, I'll try to remember
7:28 AM
@Praxeolitic I think you're mixing @-ping with "reply" ;)... did you mean to ask for source on Travis' "Filing false, or outrageous, claims against highly popular data properties will only serve to undermine the law"?
Just look at evolution here on earth. The change of mitochondria over time into more complex organisms is a factor of evolution. That was certainly influenced by radiation here on the planet.
I think you're right hey, what's the difference between @-ping and reply? (sorry, I don't use chat often)
I don't really have access to scientific journals though. I could request one. This would be a decent start: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11539966
@Praxeolitic Okay, that is a different question, since it is more focused.
@Praxeolitic I would suggest asking at biology with the biology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/molecular-biology (molecular-biology) tag
Well there's definitely an effect of radiation on evolution since all the organism we can study evolved in the radiation that Earth experiences, but what I want to get at is if the sci-fi notion of radiation or other mutagens increasing the "rate of evolution" has any scientific backing whatsoever
I'm not worried about forced arbitration btw I can't see myself suing SE
7:32 AM
@Praxeolitic @-ping only pings the user without any reference to a specific message, while the "reply" button on the right (the arrow when you hover someone's message) will point which message you're replying
Well, it will increase change, and there will be adaptions to deal with the changes introduced. Does that mean those changes will better assist in completing some task? That is where I think it gets kind of complicated.
And even if I was forced arbitration is generally non binding in europe anyways, as are website TOS in general
alright, I was think of biology as a good second candidate, I just worry that the question is too vague for them since it relies on something hypothetical being proven/disproven
Right, obviously mutagens will increase mutations but whether that will increase a perceived "rate of evolution" versus just killing things is tricky
@Praxeolitic It is certainly unproven. The newest technology in that respect would probably be gene guns which alter proteins.
what is "gene guns"?
7:35 AM
@TravisJ Are you referring to CRISPR?
Personally, I feel Biology is the best candidate for clarification. I'm not sure if Skeptics entertain sci-fi, but be careful with Worldbuilding since you might get.. uhh... out-of-the-box answer instead...
that's what I was thinking
@user5389107 That looks like one version of it.
GMO is done with a gene gun, for example.
You could try to ask on their meta instead if you already have the draft :)
Q: Electroporation vs gene guns

SANBI samples What are the pros and cons of using electroporators (left) and gene guns (right) for transformation in terms of: Price Target organism Efficacy Ease of use Maintenance

It's closed, but at least kinda informative.
7:37 AM
I'm still confused about @-ping, I am seeing messages from others that start with @someuser, so should I use that format to clarify who I'm replying to if I want to reply to a specific people?
Yeah, or you can hover over a message on the left, click the down arrow, and click reply.
@Praxeolitic it's partly to clarify, but also because they get a chat notification in the top toolbar.
That will reply directly to that message (also causes a ping), that is also why some messages have an arrow at the beginning, they are pointing to the reply
does everyone see the message if I use reply button?
yes, chat is always public
7:39 AM
yeah, there is no private chat unless it is moderator created
<.< Google is watching
I *think* you are overestimating her "cult". Let me make it clear - there isn't any "April's worshiper" secret society. If you think there is a secret guild that wants to shut down SE to take its place and make more money using April posts as an excuse then I fear you probably are very wrong. The kind of problems she pointed out in her twitter posts are problem many people already tried to pointed out in the past.

But few of them managed to be listened at. Usually, we are too busy at claiming that they are just a "bunch of trolls spreading fake info" and proving that "there is no such thi
there is no private messaging between normal users
@Derpy woah, long text...
and FWIW, April has been in conflict with Jeff longer than that...
@Derpy I would be okay with all that, except her criticism is unconstructive and deliberately over the top to appeal to an audience
@hey I'm replying this this message
oh neat!! :-P
7:42 AM
And I can't stand that handwavy "We all know $someUnsubstantiatedClaim, it's not up for debate"
So even if she has a point (she might), she's not the right person to discuss it with
@hey someone made me notice that multi line message don't enforce any length limit so I no longer need to split messages, risking smokey to add its report in the middle and breaking the text :P
I don't really feel like hashing out any of that, and I am kind of hoping to get back to the radiated super cats with xray vision.
And? I mean... If you feel that way and don't want to discuss with her... fine. It is your choice. I respect that. My reply wasn't about that.

It is claiming that we don't have any problem that should be avoided. Don't want to trust her? Trust Tim then.
> I've also noticed many attacking her with impossible arguments (like "prove it") and the whole time I'm just sitting here screaming at my screen I WISH I COULD SHOW YOU ALL THESE EMAILS UGGGGGG
That was the change we were aiming for with the radiation right? No? Hashing? Ugh. So 2018.
@Derpy I am btw
no contest there
I've heard enough people I trust verify there's a systemic problem that I stopped requiring more proof since I can understand why it's not happening (confidentiality and all that)
I'm just tired of people quoting her already. I would similarly balk if I had to put up with Rush Limbaugh's take on the situation, for instance.
7:49 AM
There is certainly a problem. The problem revolves around users being polite to others, but mean. The degree of mean can be amplified towards certain categories of users.
@TravisJ no hashing, hashtag instead!
The entire source of this problem though is the friction between content being removed, and the users who are associated with it. In my opinion.
I'll maintain that people who want to hurt will find the most effective way
You can see a breakdown of what I think here.
Q: Content, rules, and perceptions

Travis JFrom my experience with the site, with trying to help user moderation, and with the recent mentorship program; often, low-quality and off-topic content comes from confused users who do not understand how to properly use the service provided here. There are many categories of confusion, but ther...

It is a hard question to answer... kind of feel bad for the failed attempts, but it needs to be solved.
Okay, my following message could probably be perceived as offensive, please let me know if I'm crossing the line:
7:52 AM
Another issue is with clearly bad actors. There are some users who make the whole community look bad. Throttling their comments is a totally awesome idea that we should totally do.
Q: Can we implement temporary automatic comment ban on 'x' number of validated rude comment flags?

Yvette ColombThere's been problems with abusive comments since the site started. What's with all the rude comments recently? We still haven't managed to conquer the issue. Negative comments drive new users away, how can we fix this? Users can be issued chat bans and post bans. The API automatically bans IP ...

@TravisJ I've wondered this for a while
If you get posts rude flagged on the regular you get IP banned and get a -100 rep penalty every time. Comment rude flags to absolutely nothing right now
Heh, I don't think I can be Cynical Brit :p
@hey Now you made me sad :(
Q: Do mutagens ever increase the "rate of evolution"?

PraxeoliticThere are a lot of sci-fi plots where mutagens, especially radiation, cause some organism to evolve at an accelerated rate. Obviously most of the authors behind these works are primarily concerned with finding a justification for a desired plot rather than adhering to known science. Nonetheless, ...

@JohnDvorak I remembered to ping you!
7:56 AM
That looks good to me
@JNat to quote Charlie Brown... "Good grievance", finally that post chain is gone (I am talking about the post I linked before and you removed). Thanks. ^_^
@Praxeolitic I find it okay
@Praxeolitic So now that you have asked a complicated question, just get ready for no one to answer it and a shiny tumbleweed badge for your effort :P
Apr 28 at 13:00, by hey
FR: a penalty of 50 reps for every approved rude/abusive comment flag
I didn't post on meta though...
is there an "official" way to suggest a tag on a site where you're low rep? I was thinking "experimental-evolution" would be good. Previously I've left a suggestion for a tag at the bottom of questions and hoped someone with high rep on that site would edit the question, remove the suggestion, and add the tag, but maybe there's a better way

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