Tavern on the Meta

8:00 AM

@Praxeolitic the only way is to discuss it on their meta site, whether the tag is warranted or not...

@TravisJ ha, well it does feel a lot better to have someone patting me on the back rather than just feeling that I've asking a weird question no one likes

Travis J

\o/

I am an optimist though, so here's hoping other people see the value in it

Princess Luna

@hey I'd agree to that feature request assuming there's a warning first (i.e. after 2 R/A comments, notify the person, continued behavior results in 50 rep penalties)

Travis J

I would probably avoid introducing the tag experimental-evolution. I just don't think there is much science being done in that category that is published, so no one really knows about it.

Praxeolitic

good point, thoughts on any existing tags I should add?

Travis J

8:03 AM

this is me making an eww face

Introducing new tags is a huge hassle.

Praxeolitic

huge hassle? why is that?

hey

I guess 'evolution' is already a good broad tag. I'm not a regular there, so I don't have any idea what tags they have, but their community would probably add better tags for you

user5389107

SO meta is really tiring to read right now if you dislike politics

hey

@user5389107 just ignore [welcoming] tag :)

Travis J

@user5389107 I tried to strip my observation of the political aspects of what is being discussed. I think without the main contention point, it would make the overall situation much better.

@Praxeolitic Well, generally the set of tags a community has is rather static. Sure, new ones slowly slink in, but just as often they are burninated out.

user5389107

8:07 AM

@TravisJ Blog post didn't help that. The meta discussion is mainly revolving around that rather then actual solutions or issues instead

Praxeolitic

I haven't been very active on SO lately, but it sort of blows my mind that on some sites I can just create tags since I have 1500+, are there downsides to doing so?

like how will I get called out if I create a terrible tag?

Travis J

@user5389107 Blog post was trying to solve the problem from the top down. That is different. That post was meant to reach and affect every member of the community through one go. My suggestion is bottom up. It is meant to affect every member of the community slowly, on a post by post basis.

@Praxeolitic I don't think that anyone really calls you out unless it is being used for advertising or spam, so from that angle you should be safe. Downside is just introducing something that the community needs to clean up at some point.

user5389107

@TravisJ Thats one part of the issue the other part of the issue is that it took a political stance (like it or not linking to an implicit bias test is you as a company taking a in political context far-left stance) and a lot of contributors who dislike that intensely immediately got defensive

hey

@Praxeolitic if it's not too major, the community would probably just remove the tag when they find it. Otherwise, a meta discussion will spawn if a user is too... "enthusiast" in creating new tags

user5389107

Sad state of affairs that that is considered a far-left fringe stance, but it is. I'm not saying it should be, but it definitely is.

Praxeolitic

8:11 AM

so "huge hassle" means feeling personally concerned about keeping everything tidy, right? (that is a good reason, I'm just curious)

rene

@Praxeolitic you'll be remembered when we clean-up: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/324071/578411

Travis J

@user5389107 I think I saw it phrased well, where one user who had been negatively effected by what they felt was a strong sense of ... "not welcoming" ... They said, while it is political to some who view it from the outside, when it effects you every day it is no longer political, it is just your normal.

Derpy

Mind you, I get your point here. But I think we have more pressing gender-discrimination problems than focusing on pronouns and language. Sadly, English has gender specific pronouns, which puts it in a more difficult position than some other languages like Japanese. Using male-related pronouns and words is simply too common now. A day will come when we finally will agree on using some less gender-specific wording, but I fear it is still distant.

I mean, were I live school teaches you that English uses male pronouns every time you are talking about a mixed gender group or someone you don't …

Praxeolitic

@rene ha, so the hassle of creating a new tag is judgment from my peers, right? (that's an excellent motivation, I just want to make sure I understand)

Travis J

So, that some people argue it was a purely political stance that was taken, in my opinion it was aimed at helping people who were otherwise feeling very helpless.

user5389107

8:14 AM

@TravisJ Well yeah, but the overton window of acceptability in the US (where SE is based) is radically different then say in india (where a lot of SE users live) and both of these are different from say central europe

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body: where to buy Fashion Women Dresses with up to 75%off? by kellybam on chinese.SE

user5389107

The problem here is what is automatic and uncontroversial for some (and comes across as company stance since it was made in a blog post) is some deeply offensive and repugnant stuff for others

rene

@Praxeolitic kind of, yes

Travis J

@user5389107 I agree that there are a lot of different cultures here to consider. It is a tight line to walk.

user5389107

The reason SE got such a diverse community to begin with is that it remained fiercely apolitical throughout

Praxeolitic

8:15 AM

thanks everyone, I'm checkout out for the night, farewell!

user5389107

You saw the backlash to the trump order meta post - like it or not a sizable contingent of SE contributors are trump supporters and would maybe call you insane for concepts like chosen pronouns

Travis J

@Praxeolitic Bye, good luck with your post :)

user5389107

The reason this site works with such a diversity of opinion is because it doesn't usually come up

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@user5389107 ...and then "Time to take a stand" happened

Travis J

(they just mentioned that post)

> Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

That was my answer to that post.

You can see the rest here if you want.

user5389107

8:18 AM

See if you approach it that way SE might tear itself apart at the seams

Unless you want to ideologically purge the site

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

And don't even mention the close war that took place on that post

Travis J

I see what you are saying, but I disagree because you can have different ideologies in one place work in harmony so long as one of them isn't advocating that some large group of other ideologies cannot remain.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

On a side note, I'm on my way to hitting the rep cap again for reporting a typo in the Terms of Service

Travis J

This is already the existing mindset. So, do you purge the site of the one arguing against anything but itself? Or let that one remain and watch it tear the site apart on its own?

hey

I have taken a stance that the main point of that blog is "That's not the community fault. That's the company fault". I'll still try improving my behavior whenever I can, but other than that, there's nothing I can do except to wait until SE does implement something new...

user5389107

8:23 AM

@TravisJ That is exactly what is happening right now, or at least it's percieved that way

There's a sizable contingent of users who believe the action recommended in the blog post to be left wing narrative controlling extremism. There's also a sizeable contingent (judging by upvotes) that think even making that insinuation (that SO is less welcoming to say people of color) is racist in itself. We're seeing an ideological war play out on meta, and the only reason it hasn't degenerated to /r/politics niveau yet is the strict "be nice" policing on meta comments and posts

Travis J

@user5389107 Is it though? Or is it that a group of users has felt so affronted for so long that there is finally some push back? And the offending group is suddenly on the defensive, claiming to be the victim.

user5389107

@TravisJ Welcome to US politics in the last couple of years

Travis J

I think it hasn't devolved is because a lot of the bad actors are being suspended.

user5389107

My analysis is completly seperated from my own opinion (i'm leaning towards supporting the efforts)

hey

Oh well, I hope this debate will end soon in this chat room... need more beers and waffles

user5389107

8:28 AM

@TravisJ That does nothing to improve SE's perception among the affected user group, to the contrary

Travis J

Hey, I was on radioactive super cats...

@user5389107 Wait, which group?

user5389107

@TravisJ Both. It's probably not very welcoming to people who are marginalized (they do feel that way, whether they are or not) to see that meta is discussing with prevailing consensus that this was a mistake and a lot of people openly in vehement disagreement with any action

As well as people who feel like this is injecting opposition politics in their apolitical site

Travis J

I guess. I am still glad some of those users are suspended.

I have tried not to openly be too vocal about it. I agree with the blog, and I don't need to get all lightning rod about it from a bunch of people who are experts in being offensive while bending the rules.

In all honesty, a lot of the reason I flat out did not contribute to the site for several months was because of that type of "unwelcoming", and I am not a minority, and do not even post low quality material.

For a while it was impossible to answer a question that wasn't research paper standards due to the pushback from people arguing that answering was just making the site a terrible place.

Let alone post a question which may have been in the mediocre range, I am sure.

user5389107

@TravisJ I get that feeling stronger in some tags rather then others

I've shifted to sql from C recently because it feels like no matter how hard I try in C there's always some little detail I miss that someone will inevitably snark at me about

Travis J

I am fine with being corrected, even for small details. But to be flat out told that I shouldn't answer because of the question itself was where it really got excessive.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

8:41 AM

delv-pls 20k+ meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309783/…

user310756

@TheLittleNaruto nope it was a news article. I haven't seen a kangaroo in a while, there were a lot of wallabies where my horses used to be

user5389107

Hey @Yve long time no see in chat :D

user310756

@user5389107 well it's not just the kick, they have claws that can also do harm

user5389107

You promised foal pics

user310756

@user5389107 Mags????

user310756

8:43 AM

is it you???

user5389107

t'is

user310756

Yay!! I posted a comment under one of your comments (stalked you on MSO).. Missed you!!

user5389107

I've been in the tavern the past couple of days

Turns out staying away from this site is almost impossible

user310756

Yes - she still hasn't foaled... can you please change you username.. even to "Waiting For Foal Pics"?

user5389107

There's a 30d timer on that

user310756

8:44 AM

@user5389107 yes yes I understand.. it's a hard habit to kick. Sometimes having a break is good

user310756

ooh I can change it on SO for you

user310756

A mod did that for me once on SO

user5389107

It's a me problem tbh, I just need to get my social anxiety under control

Journeyman Geek

lol

@user5389107 :(

user310756

@user5389107 you and me and a lot of others too!

Journeyman Geek

8:45 AM

Social anxiety sucks

user310756

yep ti does

Princess Luna

Yep

user310756

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene chaos-emerald-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/244699/…

user5389107

It's not anyone's fault but my own that I have a tendency to see everything in the worst possible light and am on edge all the time that I mess something up

More perception then reality and I need to work on that

user310756

8:46 AM

these are two little foals I bought - brumby foals from the wild. The tiny weeny one hiding behind his sister is called Padawan

user310756

@user5389107 hey we all have issues and you're not on your pat malone on that one

user310756

Appendix:Australian English rhyming slang

== List of Australian rhyming slang == The following is a list of well-known (to Australians) examples of Australian rhyming slang. It is not intended to be comprehensive. Many terms are based on popular culture, and so the cant is constantly updated according to changing fashions. The terms listed here are well-established. 3 KZ - "head", after former Melbourne AM radio station (now Gold-FM) Adrian Quist - "pissed", i.e. drunk. Now rarely heard. Named after a well-known Australian tennis player of the 1930s and 1940s. Usually replaced now by "Olivers", from Oliver Twist. Al Capone - "tele...

Princess Luna

@YvetteColomb awwww

user310756

> Pat (Malone) - "own" (alone), as in "left him on his Pat Malone".

user310756

@PrincessLuna ikr - so darn cute

user310756

8:49 AM

user310756

Padawan

user310756

he's a wee brumby foal

Princess Luna

@YvetteColomb awwwwwwww, so cute <3

user310756

he is

user310756

he reminds me of a baby deer

user202362

8:58 AM

mule you mean :p

user202362

@YvetteColomb also hey

user5389107

you're mean to say that's a mule

:P

user202362

:x

Travis J

omg my dog just did the coup de grâce to my bath mat and part of the bricks outside =/

it took me 20 minutes to clean

@user5389107 - To note though, I wasn't talking about you with regards to the suspensions earlier. Sorry if that was how it came across. It is really only two users, and they were unrelated to chat.

user5389107

@TravisJ This is one of the comment threads I was referring to: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366676

Journeyman Geek

9:08 AM

@Praxeolitic there might be meta posts. And removing tags is actually a lot of work

user5389107

If that's not a political war I don't know what is

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy I have this theory of chat moderation

user202362

If SE keeps on doing something superfluous as this, no wonder their staff are overworked

user202362

it's all about efficiency

user5389107

It might be politer in tone but it'S every bit as caustic and the people are every bit as much talking at each other rather then to each other as a reddit post

Journeyman Geek

9:10 AM

Starting with the idea that chat's a living medium and that moderation has to be an ongoing process, involving the users.

@TelKitty Not really helpful

user202362

how so?

Travis J

@user5389107 Yeah, I have read that. I mean, I don't know if you see me on mSO, but I kind of read all of it. Even all of that.

Journeyman Geek

@TelKitty well, you're making a sweeping statement, both in terms of what the staff are doing, and in terms of overall direction

user5389107

@TravisJ If you have I can't understand you disagreeing with my asessment that there's a political war going on on meta

Maybe you weren't and I misread that ...

Journeyman Geek

And yes, there's probably a lot of issues with how things are running now

but folks have been bringing up very specific concerns

Travis J

9:15 AM

@user5389107 I wasn't disagreeing that there is a lot of upheaval. I am not sure I would call it a political war, but I wasn't disagreeing.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 @TimPost Maybe it's time to lift @Shadow's chat suspension? He's apologized on Twitter to April and he's very helpful.

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ people are emotional

Travis J

Yup

Journeyman Geek

And its really really really tempting to just circle the wagons.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@aprilwensel [cont] As you can see from the swift action taken by Stack Exchange staff (they banned the two offenders from chat, I'm one of them) and made it crystal clear such things are not proper, and I totally accept this. Chat culture in SE is the best I've ever seen. Thanks for reading.

Tweeted by ShadowWizard78 on May 2, 2018 at 7:49 PM in reply to aprilwensel

user5389107

9:16 AM

I have a fear that this will just end in a mass exodus or even more caustic behavior or both

user202362

@JourneymanGeek Fair enough ... if SE keeps on making moves such as the latest superfluous blog about racist/sexist and enforcing stricter chat rules that's likely to drive out some of the most knowledgeable and most help users, then no wonder staff are over worked and SE might be going backwards.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@ShadowWizard78 Thank you for the apology. What I'd really like to see in the world is women being treated as equals, not as objects to be joked about. I hope that even in private conversations between friends, men will be inspired to use more respectful language when discussing women or men.

Tweeted by aprilwensel on May 2, 2018 at 7:55 PM in reply to ShadowWizard78

user310756

@user5389107 yep she is.

Journeyman Geek

@TelKitty SE's survived a few.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I agree with this, and that's something we should be doing IRL too, not just online. https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/991768083265081344

Tweeted by ShadowWizard78 on May 2, 2018 at 7:57 PM

Journeyman Geek

9:16 AM

But but

We forgot rule 0

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Someone said I "make a blatant mockery of the issues facing SE overall", someone I value and appreciate. This made me think, and realize I did that as defense mechanism, instead of dwelling in sadness or wave angry fists. What's better? No idea. Night all.

Tweeted by ShadowWizard78 on May 2, 2018 at 10:52 PM

Journeyman Geek

Don't be a dick.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

(Okay, I'm a bit conflicted there)

@JourneymanGeek You could "reduce the suspension to time served"

user202362

I hope you get suspended for spam chat with things others don't want to read

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I couldn't

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

9:17 AM

@TelKitty Me?

@JourneymanGeek I know, that's why I pinged mods

Journeyman Geek

and really this is a conversation Shadowwizard needs to have the the CMs if he wants it reduced

user202362

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yes you

user202362

don't spam

user5389107

I felt it was all relevant to the discussion here

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I didn't say it should be reduced. I said maybe it's time to lift it.

Journeyman Geek

9:19 AM

@TelKitty ehhh. He has a right to an opinion. Even if its 180 degrees from what it was before I took a nap. As long as he dosen't keep annoying folks about it...

Travis J

I didn't find it spammy. It seemed relevantish and limited in scope.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek It's not 180 degrees. In fact, I apologized to him in his Den.

Travis J

It's not like it was an animated gif

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I still stand by the fact that it was blatantly objectifying

Bart

Hey now, what's this business with people having opinions of their own in here all of a sudden? You all know we simply praise the word of Shog and that's it.

Journeyman Geek

9:21 AM

;p

user5389107

tbh my opinions shift all the time

Travis J

hides the wheel of blame

user5389107

I'm not an expert in most things so there's a metric ton that I don't know about

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Bart I've been the only one freely expressing disagreements with the system here before April's Medium post came out.

user202362

but it's not chat users opinion, twitter dumps are never original ...

Journeyman Geek

9:23 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog "the only one"

ever?

Bart

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm frankly out of the loop on a whole lot of that given that my attention was consumed by trying to release a game. So don't take whatever I say too seriously (good tip in general)

user202362

@Bart lucky you

Journeyman Geek

@Bart heh. Not much to really miss, unless you have a large stock of popcorn for drama :(

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Bart So you still stand by this message you sent me back in '13?

Nov 8 '13 at 20:46, by Bart

@gparyani top tip: 95% of what I say is nonsense. The other 5% is suspicious.

Bart

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog absolutely

user202362

9:26 AM

@TravisJ what about animated gifs?

user310756

@TelKitty hi how's your chikens aka roosters? :)

Travis J

@TelKitty I was saying that animated gifs can be really annoying. Especially a group of them all at once.

hey

animated gifs of chikens aka roosters!?

user202362

@YvetteColomb they are great - growing bigger every day ... and always hungry

user202362

@TravisJ I agree, that's why I space them out

user5389107

9:29 AM

@TelKitty mini raptors in training

user310756

@user5389107 yes! @TelKitty he knows our plan!

user5389107

chicken are terrifying.

Travis J

3

user202362

cute overflow!!!

Travis J

:D

user359686

9:33 AM

@PrincessLuna Learned.

user202362

@user5389107 like raptor, but with wings ... that's how @yvette & I are planning to conquer the woXXX

Bart

^ ban pls. Plotting world domination.

hey

@TravisJ suddenly my mind feel refreshed!!!

user310756

@TelKitty shuuuuush they can hear you!

hey

huh, you don't know that if you prefix the message with "@hey", it will become a private chat?

Travis J

9:37 AM

what if I suffix my message with @hey

hey

@TravisJ it will be transmitted to everyone in the world (yes, even without internet) D:

Travis J

Wow, what a tool. The public broadcasting system should start using that!

user310756

@hey hey that's a great idea

user310756

@TravisJ it gets rocketed out to space beacon style

user310756

@TravisJ lolol

Travis J

9:42 AM

hah finally we found a way to move something faster than the speed of light

It was right there this whole time

hey

Chooks. It's always chooks.

Princess Luna

This clearly confirms there is a conspiracy too @TravisJ!

hey

@TelKitty it's hard to choose between the correct word (it's dangerously ambiguous), so I chose "worry"

user202362

there are a few words you can choose from

Travis J

@PrincessLuna I agree. The sky is literally falling.

What have we done?!

user202362

9:46 AM

it's called rain

Travis J

Oh, phew.

user5389107

Stuff like this I can see people balk at :

Would you share the final implementation here honey? Thanks — Alberto Nov 24 '14 at 16:43

user310756

@TelKitty ok when you are better, can you visit? we are running bets on when this foal will come. Once it's born i can also get to Sydney again...

Travis J

Bye for now o/

user202362

@YvetteColomb Sure, in the next few week, will send you sms to find out when you are available and confirm time. So this foal is still not quite due yet?

user310756

9:54 AM

@TravisJ bye nicce to see you

user310756

@TelKitty I could be wrong, but I reckon another two weeks, though she could surprise us. Her udder and teats have not changed

user202362

@YvetteColomb It's good for you though ... since the mother was under nourished, the foal probably was too ... it's better to have a health foal than one that's delivered on time but under nourished - take much more effort to looking after a weak new born baby horse.

user202362

@user5389107 maybe you should get a healthy hobby

user310756

10:10 AM

@TelKitty yep agree

user5389107

10:53 AM

1.95 horse

hey

2.5 men?

user202362

3486432423 chooks

user5389107

I wonder what the business with the new arbitration clause is though

Seems awfully anti consumer for a company like SE to do

user202362

are we talking about GDPR?

user5389107

New TOS

Aside from if it's legal or not (I'm not a lawyer so I won't really go into that) I think it's a pretty unethical business practice

Like JP Morgan Chase tier unethical

user310756

10:59 AM

@user5389107 hmm or even more?

user202362

why do I think you might be a sock @user5389107

user5389107

@TelKitty of whom?

user202362

someone who has similar ... almost the exact same concern as you

user5389107

idk what to tell you i've been here for over two years

hey

@TelKitty no one that I could think about, at least not here

user5389107

11:05 AM

I recently did change my name but I'm not a sock

rene

Give or take the weather you have two socks.

hey

You have two socks. The government will take everyone's one sock and use them for socks investment.

... that doesn't smell good...

rene

It was smelly from the start

Princess Luna

@hey What if someone has 5 socks through a SOCKS5 proxy? :p

Derpy

11:33 AM

@JohnDvorak and that's sadly my fear too.

Journeyman Geek

11:46 AM

@Derpy Naw, they were already happening

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek I still stand my claim that I had reported both via flagging and mail contact us option that offensive message another room without any feedback or action taken. The day I linked it on the chat room - boom, destroyed.

I am NOT saying that they are doing this on purpose. I am saying that sadly they have so much work on their hand that they only manage to follow up on the more visible cases.

Probably, in six to eight time-units, someone will finally get to my original mail report (from I think 2 years ago) and notice the offending post has been deleted in the meantime.

I can't blame them. They indeed seem to lack manpower - too few employees, to much work.

user5389107

@Derpy I also raised a custom mod flag in chat.mse yesterday (on your post linking it) so it might just be shog came across it organically in his cleanup effort

user202362

@Derpy thus, need to determine what's really important and what's superfluous

user5389107

You're probably right - they'd most likely need twice the staff to put a dent in the amount of work piled on right now and are just spread too thin

user202362

working smarter, not harder

user5389107

11:54 AM

If you have a better idea on how to handle all of it I'm sure they'd look forward to your application, no?

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy that's a different problem, and one we keep bringing up

user202362

@user5389107 why are you so sure of that?

user5389107

If you have a workable concept to reduce workload significantly without sacrificing any of the goals of the organization while staying within budget and external constraints you'd be quite an exceptional employee

Also that was more of a rhetorical device to say "it's complicated in ways that aren't apparent to us most likely"

user202362

I hardly ever worked very hard and yet I get above average marks and have more than average asset ... only saying from experience

Journeyman Geek

@user5389107 not all jobs can be streamlined tho

user202362

12:02 PM

I also had failed venture ... not saying I never wasted any effort - it's all part of learning I guess

Journeyman Geek

the problem with community management in general is...

you're dealing with people

user5389107

@JourneymanGeek That was entirely my point, but maybe I didn't bring it across well

Journeyman Geek

and its kinda hard to streamline human interactions

user202362

Laissez-faire

Laissez-faire (; French: [lɛsefɛʁ] ( listen); from French: laissez faire, lit. 'let do') is an economic system in which transactions between private parties are free from government intervention such as regulation, privileges, tariffs and subsidies. The phrase laissez-faire is part of a larger French phrase and basically translates to "let (it/them) do", but in this context usually means to "let go". == Etymology and usage == The term laissez faire likely originated in a meeting that took place around 1681 between powerful French Controller-General of Finances Jean-Baptiste Colbert and a group...

user5389107

community management isn't something you can min-max

user202362

12:03 PM

talking about people, economics is all about people ... take less action is actually very popular when it comes to it

John Dvorak

Humans suck ... but we have nothing better at this point.

user5389107

or at least, it's not apparent to me how you could do that

You can minmax a technical job with a clearly defined deliverable and goal, but community management is as much about perception as it is about action, from what I understand

and human perception is fickle and unreliable and no so easily predictable

user202362

communism is all about control, look how successful that is

Journeyman Geek

To a certain extent you can farm out some of the workload to the community

To a point

user202362

also communism started with a very good goal, but it's against human nature

Feeds

12:09 PM

Stack Overflow for Teams is Now Available

Alex Miller on May 03, 2018

It’s here. After months of designing, building, testing, and beta-ing, we’re happy to announce that as of today, Stack Overflow for Teams has launched and is available to everyone!

It often feels like developers have to know everything, constantly juggling dozens of tools, languages, libraries, and frameworks. To do this, they have to be able to quickly find the information they need in order to get back to writing software. When that information is public, all you need is a a quick search on Stack Overflow to turn up an answer and be on your way. But when that information is internal and private, it’s a maze of stale wikis and lost emails. …

user202362

What SE is trying to do is a lot like communism - trying to bend human nature to achieve a great goal. It will just not work. You can put as much effort into it and the result might be worse than where you started.

Journeyman Geek

\o/

user5389107

@TelKitty Are you equating trying to cajole people into being nicer with communism?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

And I hit the rep cap again!

user202362

so you reckon SE can make people nicer?

Journeyman Geek

12:12 PM

hmm

"nice"? no

civil? Hopefully

user202362

yes, people can behave civil, they can be trained

user5389107

@TelKitty I think it just might

Forcing people to be civil always until it becomes a habit

user202362

@user5389107 lemme guess, you have not graduated from uni

user5389107

I have not

Journeyman Geek

....

@TelKitty what does that have to do with anything?

....

oops

user5389107

12:15 PM

I'm still employed as a professional software developer

user202362

@user5389107 forcing people to be civil, that's sounds like what government is doing to civilians in totalitarian dystopia sci-fis

Bart

Hey now, be civil.

user5389107

I think you're overexaggerating people not being able to be unrespectful

user202362

@Bart civilly plotting world domination?

Bart

That could be a statement in your profile. "Civilly plotting world domination"

Journeyman Geek

12:24 PM

but of course.

'We might be evil overlords but we are not barbarians. Or Uncouth.

user202362

what if in a heavy snow storm you see a pack of wolves coming at you, but they are actually huskies pulling a sled?

DroidDev

12:38 PM

@TelKitty we do not impersonate as huskies, and you won't see us coming. You'll only notice when we want you to :P

user5389107

I wonder how teams will deal with people just sharing SO accounts across 10 accounts so they never have to pay extra

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

0

Q: Will current Teams users part of the private beta be grandfathered in to the current pricing? If so, for how long?

Now that Stack Overflow for Teams has launched (as a paid service), what will happen to teams that are currently part of the private beta? Will they immediately have to start paying, or will those teams continue to be free? If so, for how long will they be free, before they have to start paying?

yagmoth555

1:31 PM

one kid sick this morning, too much time to kill at home, someone know if smokey can run in windows?

rene

@yagmoth555 technically it should but the few that tried gave up.

@yagmoth555 Also, note that running metasmoke on Windows is extremely difficult‌.

yagmoth555

@rene oh ok, thx for the info :) , will take less time to build a linux box then

hey

@TelKitty I guess you're too tired to be hallucinating, so you should sleep. Even if it's eventually a real pack of wolves, you still should sleep (play dead)

@user5389107 like free BitBucket? :D

Journeyman Geek

@yagmoth555 could run it in a VM in theory

hey

oh, apparently SOfT is already pay-as-you-go, no free tier...

user5389107

1:42 PM

Yeah but what stops a company with say 50 engineers from signing up for the 10$ a month plan and having employees share 10 accounts?

rene

@yagmoth555 I linked you to metasmoke, running smoke detector seems much easier

hey

@user5389107 I'm thinking the same for BitBucker's free tier for 5 accounts...

like, we have been juggling accounts here...

Thomas Ward

@yagmoth555 "it can" but running MS on Windows is basically an exercise in self-torture

WELZ

@yagmoth555 Install a Ubuntu VM (it's very easy)

Thomas Ward

the core critical functions require git access and creds, and a MS integration key.

And though I have a smokey which can technically run in Windows, it's run via an IDE - PyCharm - and I have dev access and integration keys with Metasmoke and also the git creds.

and that makes it a lot harder to run it properly.

... also the Windows git support in Smokey is basically a hackish approach to it with very fragile wrapper around Git for Windows which requires you to install/configure git.

hey

1:51 PM

probably would be... good(?) if Smokey also has a bare basic function without git access & MS integration, just scanning SE posts...

Thomas Ward

you can run it that way but you lose a majority of the Smokey functions

hey

welp, back to what I remembered about Smokey 2 years ago :)

Thomas Ward

I mean, I run TCOM (a specific instance of smokey named "The Call of Midnight") in dev mode without MS integration and without git integration sometimes, but that's rare.

hey

"Nostalgia version"... heh (not serious :)

yagmoth555

@WELZ @JourneymanGeek thx, yes will do a small vm! got some azure credit left I think

Journeyman Geek

2:01 PM

and heh

yagmoth555

@rene cool! I though smokey was the friendly name for the smoke detector, didnt even knew more than one bot existed

Journeyman Geek

I need to rebuild my old server

and decide if I want to keep it ;p

yagmoth555

@JourneymanGeek you run what on it?

rene

@yagmoth555 meta smoke is the central control this site while Smokey / Smoke detector is the actual bot that hooks up to Stack Exchange websockets and Chat rooms.

Journeyman Geek

@yagmoth555 I used to run my webserver on it

currently the only active thing is my IRC bouncer, and I've not been on IRC in ... literally years

yagmoth555

2:05 PM

@rene oh ok, I see the differance

Journeyman Geek

I'm thinking of using it to test an alternate server config I want to try with ngnix units

Journeyman Geek

2:25 PM

I currently run php-fpm with nginx

Thomas Ward

@JourneymanGeek which is the proper way to run PHP via NGINX

is the NGINX package maintainer for Ubuntu, alongside the rest of the server team

Journeyman Geek

@ThomasWard ngnix units would potentially be slightly faster, and probably more elegant

also not just for PHP

Thomas Ward

potentially. that said "Unit" is its own component from NGINX

and not part of the built-in NGINX until you install NGINX Unit (unit.nginx.org/installation)

Journeyman Geek

yup

but but

the php-fpm config works

and is very reliable

Sterling Archer

3:00 PM

morning

user359686

morning

rene

→ 4 messages moved to Chimney

user5389107

evening

Princess Luna

morning

user359686

morning

Catija

3:07 PM

Hola.

Aloha

Bonjour

//time internet

user359686

@PrincessLuna The datetime zone id 'internet' is not recognised

user359686

3:16 PM

@PrincessLuna Morning

SmokeDetector

3:28 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in body: Do you know a mathematic bibliography website? by ladangvu on math.SE

hey

3:40 PM

waffles. I believe it has been caught by Smokey.

Anonymous

4:11 PM

Inspired by the code snippet Nick posted on Twitter yesterday (https://twitter.com/Nick_Craver/status/991862146882592768), here's a minor self-XSS in teams registration:

steps:
1. navigate to https://stackoverflow.com/teams/create?email=</script><script>alert(1)</script>
2. click "send verification"
3. dismiss the error.
4. navigate to https://stackoverflow.com/teams/create
5. behold an evil alert dialog
6. also the page is now broken and you can't register for teams.

Anonymous

(I think it's only self-XSS (injection requires fkey) so it's not very dangerous.)

Anonymous

Consider just making your own safe micro-templating with template strings, like by modifying this code (public domain copy-paste-safe):

Anonymous

const escapeHtml = text => {
    return String(text)
      .replace(/&/g, '&amp;')
      .replace(/</g, '&lt;')
      .replace(/>/g, '&gt;')
      .replace(/"/g, '&quot;')
      .replace(/'/g, '&#39;');
};

/**
 * A template string tag function for HTML. All interpolated values will be
 * escaped unless they are already HTMLStrings. Returns an HTMLString object,
 * whose raw value is available by .toString().
 */
const HTML = function(statics, var_dynamics) {
  const dynamics = Array.from(arguments).slice(1);

Anonymous

If you rely on developers manually calling escape every time it's necessary, you are engineering vulnerabilities.

Princess Luna

Obligatory xkcd:

Shog9

4:32 PM

@user1114 are you nesting templates there?

Anonymous

@Shog9 It's supported, because if you don't support it users will be more tempted to concatenate strings.

Shog9

that's pretty cool

was that always supported?

Anonymous

This has been supported since ES6 stuff started landing in major browsers a few years ago.

Shog9

that's pretty slick. I may steal it.

not for... Stack Overflow, but, y'know, stuff.

like the chat monitoring script you broke with that weird room of yours.

Anonymous

The version of this I actually use for my projects is more complicated, to support async values/streams of values, incremental rendering and server-side pre-rendering, but for the simple case it's nice to have a single page of logic anybody can read, instead of some magic elaborate template system few people understand.

Anonymous

4:37 PM

JavaScript has started to not suck. :)

Jhoverit

stackoverflow.blog down for anyone else?

NobodyNada

@Jhoverit No

Jhoverit

My work must've blocked it as hate speech or something lmao

Shog9

@user1114 I've been using this one, since it performed the best in testing - but I last tested before templates were widely supported, so more'n happy to give it another look.

Transcript for