Tavern on the Meta - 2018-04-27 (page 4 of 4)

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user315433

9:01 PM

@PetterFriberg Some outdated numbers in meta.stackexchange.com/a/221493 (2014 :( )

On a completely unrelated note, if anyone was considering learning a respectable programming language, I will submit to you that Python seems to be rather popular. This Official Tutorial is actually a part of the documentation. :D

@AaronHall How dare you exclude present company! Not very inclusive of you if you ask me..

user315433

@AaronHall /ask template can make awful-burn-it questions into boring-meh questions, no more

Or R... R is gaining a lot of popularity as well

user315433

R is great for many things but the syntax is less intuitive and less readable.

user315433

9:05 PM

Anyway, is it Happy Hour yet?

@bro Thanks, yeah looking at those it seems like mods delete most of NAA, but yeah we can't be sure... I remember some stats somewhere but I will search another day.

@bro The implicit copying is weird.

user315433

The Rolling Stones - Happy - Live (1972) Official

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@bro yes

let's happy all these hours

9:22 PM

Hmmm... Robert, Shog and Grace Note's network flare is broken on the "who are the CMs" question.

@πάνταῥεῖ Welcome back. Was your... hiatus restful?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Machavity I ever was active here and at other SE sites.

user315433

The hiatus isn't over until late June.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Great newz @bro

:3

@mach Well, at least I had a good lough about that with my step daughter again (in danger of hiatus breaking [med.]). I probably should ask her, if she thinks if I am gender biased in her opinion. She sometimes thinks so I believe, even if there never was an intend to sound so.

9:40 PM

user image

πάντα ῥεῖ

I'd recommend it to take a "Jhonny Walker" 1st ...

The heroine comes laterz ...

Journeyman Geek

10:28 PM

@TravisJ OI TOKEN MINORITY PERSON HERE. DO NOT IGNORE ME ;p

@Mithrandir yup most likely

@jadarnel27 sleeping the dream! ;)

What's with Jeremy?

5 hours ago, by user1114

When things get to politically heated I sometimes like to use names other than my full real name.

status-sad-due-to-playing-bad-game

@NobodyNada huh? That was @Jeremy?! oh my...

Never saw that coming...

user315433

When I'm in CV Review queue, I see a lot of abrasive comments "we are not here to ..." coming from users whom I would imagine as non-white based on their name...

Journeyman Geek

Morning

10:33 PM

So soon we'll all be numbers. buh

First @Magi, now @Jeremy... who's next?

user315433

On the contrary, everyone will be required to use a nice and welcoming username with butterflies in the avatar

but come on people, at least keep using the same avatar so we have chance to know who post what...

user315433

user12345 isn't welcoming.

@bro Alternately, adorable small children and plush toys.

Journeyman Geek

dogs work ^^

user315433

10:36 PM

Sep 13 '16 at 21:38, by Shog9

@rene I hold that one of the big advantages of Stack Overflow's format is that it doesn't require knowledgeable people to also be talented writers, diplomats, or even particularly well-adjusted people. Of course, this advantage doesn't necessarily translate to meta.

user315433

If the goal is to limit participation to those aware of intersectional issues, implicit bias, and whatnot, those Android apps might take a bit longer to be developed.

Journeyman Geek

@πάνταῥεῖ I'd still need time to answer them, and I actually have a day job

user315433

Civility is a fine goal, it's consistent with efficiency.

user315433

But the blog explicitly says it's not enough. (Not that SO has ever reached that first step...)

@bro that still holds ...

user315433

10:40 PM

Of course, because nothing changed. EVP can Blog To His Heart's Content with title case, those in the trenches can shrug it off as irrelevant.

@rene nope. Erase "diplomats" and it might... we're now required to think first on the feelings of the person we're about to downvote or comment to (even constructive comment, which might be seen as rude and elitist by people with low self esteem). That requires advanced diplomatic skills.

When they'll start to enforce this (e.g. official mod warnings), people will start leaving.

SO wil be a very welcoming place.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard the trick is to work out what's worth addressing without compromising on your own integrity for the sake of excessive political correctness

:(

> My extreme reluctance to post even this tiny, tiny criticism for fear of the backlash that is likely to ensue (I've been debating for roughly seven hours whether I'm brave enough to make any comment or answer on this topic at all) is one manifestation of the "unwelcome" feeling that some of us experience.

@JourneymanGeek can't be politically correct when downvoting. This is a single action, that cause the one who got the downvote to be sad/angry/pissed off. Period.

Journeyman Geek

I literally took one look at what the commenter was complaining about, went "Oh, yeah, they're right" and edited.

@ShadowWizard My feelings are already hurt due to the insult your question is, so in return have a down vote, to balance our feelings out

10:44 PM

hehe

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard SE cannot be cuddly

SE can be civil.

@JourneymanGeek again.. as long as we have downvotes, it can't be civil.

The core issue is those who consider downvotes, not comments, to be rude and elitist.

Journeyman Geek

We will always throw our babies out in the snow. Question is, are we spartans or icelanders (context here: qz.com/351821/… )

@ShadowWizard they really need to understand that's how things work here

we cannot address that without losing what makes us useful to start with

They get a downvote and cry "hey, I got it because I'm a woman/black/etc. THAT'S the real problem, and it won't go away.

Journeyman Geek

But but...

We can counter that by pointing out the real issues or fixing them

10:46 PM

haha... yeah right.

Anyway... we'll see. :)

Journeyman Geek

I did point out, this is summer of love redeux

4 hours ago, by NobodyNada

@JonEricson That makes sense to me, and I think perceived hostility of moderation is something we should fix. However, the the wording in the blog post strongly comes across as accusing our actions of being the problem, rather than new users' perception of those actions.

According to Jon, they didn't intend for the post to be read as calling downvoting a hostile action

Journeyman Geek

Wording is important

srsly?

@JourneymanGeek yeah, I still can’t see the post the way it was “intended” to be read.

10:55 PM

Happy!

... So... will it be "happy hour" this week or "drink your sorrows away hour"?

This could well be the first happy hour that everybody decides to get really drunk ...

I happen to have enough Grolsch to accomplish that

I can't... so y'all will have to drink for me.

I can do that ...

@NobodyNada Honestly, there is a lot of differing opinions internally about the impact/effect of down voting. That said, I know of no one that is saying all down voting or down voters are doing so with hostile intent.

11:02 PM

@JoeFriend Hey, Joe! Just a reminder that you're awesome. Thank you for your hard work.

@Catija Aw shucks. Thanks.

Well, I'm in the center of this storm you all are talking about so, I hope you continue to believe that.

I have yet to see anything that is disappointing. You listen. You may not accept everything we say but that's to be expected.

Well, I'm going to keep doing that. I don't know any other way. However, not everyone agrees with your assessment of me.

@JourneymanGeek Can't be the summer of love redux since the summer of love seemed to come to nothing (best I can tell). I don't think that a result of nothing is acceptable.

Still reviewing the back chat here, but you all seem to be focusing a lot on down votes. While I think they can be problematic, my view is that comments are a much bigger issue.

Also, feel free to change the topic to something more cheery if you want to have a "happy" happy hour. ;)

@JoeFriend I think most, if not all, of us agree with you on that -- which is why we're talking about downvotes

@NobodyNada Did you all think that Jay's post or something else on meta says that SO thinks the major issue is down votes?

11:10 PM

Happy hour, on average... is dead time in here.

I've been testing responsive design all day and following things in small bites so I'm behind.

No one needs to convince me that comments are the problem. :P

the blog is about a feeling that exists for new users of the site, caused by our approach on moderation. That includes all options, voting, editing, comments, tone of voice, post notices, you name it.

user315433

There are some knobs one could turn.... comments could cost 1 rep to post.

@JoeFriend I don’t think the post calls it the biggest issue, but the discussion of downvotes is the most frustrating part of the post to me personally; see my starred messages for my thoughts on it

11:13 PM

@JoeFriend Not everyone is as sensible as I am. I have my platforms but I try to balance what I want with what is good for the community. I try not to get too attached to things like voting buttons. I focus on function... Monica and I don't disagree on much, but moving the site selector into the left bar (for me) is a bad functional change... as an example.

user315433

Once upon a time, downvotes cost 1 rep on questions.... I would be okay with that reinstated (it wouldn't change how much I downvote).

@rene No disagreement there. The post is focused on feelings because they are real and we're hearing about them from a large number of people.

what bothers me is the fact that I'm somehow contributing to that.

@Catija Yep. I saw the disagreement. That change isn't happening any time soon for sure. Very complicated to get that right (if at all possible).

And I'm struggling to see where I need to adapt

11:15 PM

@rene Sure. I get that. That's totally human nature and normal.

But that's the kind of thing that makes me believe you can be a part of the solution. It's the people that want to argue about whether there is a problem that I worry about.

But even a lot of them can come around if given time.

This is such hard stuff.

We're doing some data analysis on down votes and I won't even propose solutions until we have more data. (and by we I mean Julia). I know anecdotally from personal experience that down votes can hurt, but we need more information on if/how to change down voting to address this.

Yeah, admitting you have a problem and/or are part of it is the biggest hurdle

user315433

Planning to calibrate voting mechanism based on feelings is a problem, indeed.

user315433

It'd good that you admit having it.

My wife and I have been going through something similar to this in our relationship (and we've been married forever). It's super hard to admit (even to yourself) that things you've been doing with no ill intent have been hurting someone.

@bro We have to continue to us quantitate and qualitative data. Both have their place and with out one or the other you are blind to some extent.

And we have this natural defensive streak that makes us react by blaming the other person rather than accepting the hurt that's been caused... "You never told me"... for example... instead of "I'm so sorry, how can I change?"

11:20 PM

@Catija So true.

You never told me, never ...

Journeyman Geek

@JoeFriend oh, yeah but there's many of the same elements to an outsider

→ 10 messages moved to Chimney

@JourneymanGeek Sure. I get that.

Journeyman Geek

And it's worth learning from why it didn't work imo

And the broader point is we need the community in on it.

11:26 PM

@JourneymanGeek Definitely agree on both points.

Journeyman Geek

And while folks hate that we ask for concrete examples if we knew already where we are failing our female or minority users we can work with them.

Ya'll feel free to ping me in chat if you want my POV on something or you think there is a post that I should chime in on. Tim is taking lead on a lot of the meta posts, but I'm there right behind him when I have time. TeamDAG is taking the lead on any product changes. Next week is pretty crazy but this stuff is important.

@JoeFriend I don't know that I have anything specific to say in the survey but I've been trying to decide if I need to respond to it for y'all to know I'm game to help. I'm pretty sure that Tim knows but ...

We will be specifically reaching out to mods on this, so either way is fine.

Alright, well everyone have a good weekend.

You too!

Thanks again!

11:28 PM

29

Q: Enable the “ask about own post” feature for low-rep users

Following the discussion at Should the "ask about own post" feature be enabled here on Stack Overflow?, the reception appears to be positive and generally in favor of enabling that feature here. For context, on other sites in the Stack Exchange network (except localized sites), there exists a fe...

feature-request meta new-users

oh yeah... I didn't get a lot of feedback on that, but what I did get was mostly "well, could easily go horribly wrong... But let's try it"

So, fine.

@Shog9 Answer please?

patience

Perhaps he's in the middle of writing one?

I waited 10 minutes

Usually he does it within 10 minutes

11:42 PM

@SonicWizard ... it's quite possible that he's also working on something else or writing a longer than normal answer...

Journeyman Geek

That's not very long.

1 min ago, by Sonic Wizard

Usually he does it within 10 minutes

By the way, I noticed I was late to a whole lot of discussion about tone and new users' thinking. I have quite a bit to say on this topic, seeing as I left and then subsequently rejoined. Please consider having a 1-on-1 with me, as I'd like to discuss my experience with it.

Journeyman Geek

Dude. Not cool. We have precious few cms and applying pressure for stuff cause you are impatient kinda means they can get distracted on what they are doing

Usually he writes flippant, two-paragraph answers, too... but explaining to SO why they're allowing 1 rep users to post meta questions... is going to take a bit more finesse.

Yeah, I forgot MSO doesn't have the same crowds as MSE.

Journeyman Geek

11:44 PM

@SonicWizard there's a form at the bottom of Jaydles post. Proper process please

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

such entitlement

@JourneymanGeek I filled that out. But I'd like to increase my chances of being one of the few selected for it.

0

A: Enable the “ask about own post” feature for low-rep users

Ok... Let's try this. Most of the feedback I saw - both here and when I asked around privately - fell into two buckets: Folks asking for help improving their questions are going to have a bad time here Folks are going to ask for things we cannot / should not help with (read: they're going t...

Journeyman Geek

....

What @FélixGagnon-Grenier said

@SonicWizard 11 minutes. Damn you're impatient!

11:46 PM

Damn you're a pedant.

You clearly haven't met Rand...

Journeyman Geek

You could have waited :p

Also... y'all need a new status tag [status-in-testing]

You could use it on IPS, too... on the comment thing.

meh

user315433

The answer to Can we make this meta site work for mentoring? is somewhere near the end of Revenge of the Sith.

11:48 PM

either I go back and change it to "declined" at some point, or it's effectively completed forever

You could tie it with a deadline and reminder to check back in... that way you don't have to worry that you forgot it.

Maybe you should also tag the discussion post as well, so that it doesn't show up in "Hot Meta Posts"?

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