Tavern on the Meta

Shog9

00:00

@ShadowWizard Ugh. That's a whole can of worms.

Arguably, finding out who is an employee is a rather useful thing to have.

What'd be even better would be differentiating between "elected mod" and "employee mod"

...which the API currently kinda sucks at.

I think we can all agree that we need a better solution than the one we have right now.

but what that should look like...

20

A: Hide employee reputation points on per-site Metas

This touches on something that's been discussed a lot over the years, both here on meta and internally within the company. It's a complicated topic; it's got layers. I'll try & cover it fairly here before addressing your specific proposal. Problem #1: it's confusing to see what appears to be a n...

@Catija not really. These sites were never designed to be private. There are lots and lots of places that'd need to be secured or removed.

Easiest way has traditionally been to just lock access at the network level

Next best way - which we're currently aiming at - is to carve out subsections that are private, with limited, whitelisted entrypoints.

So for example, if you want a secure Enterprise site you do both: you put it on a private network and set up some authentication method that stands between any potential user and access to the site.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 @ShadowWizard tbh, not being able to find who an employee is easily is... kinda restricted to situations like this.

(and I don't think this would have even come up if not for "the list")

Shog9

eh. It would've come up sooner or later.

Catija

@Shog9 I've been assuming that Enterprise sites are hosted locally on the client's servers?

Shog9

Chalk it up to the org as a whole not having any experience with this.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 no, but there's a difference between "oh crap, which one of our regulars did I lose" and a full list

Shog9

00:07

@Catija originally, yes. They can now also be hosted, but that took a lot of dev work to allow.

@JourneymanGeek the problem is, one leads naturally to the next. Once you've been surprised a few times, you start looking for a way to minimize future surprises.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 not that you want to ._.

@Shog9 I suppose

user202362

unless knows who is who, a name is like a pointer ... knowing a bunch of names on a list is fairly meaning less unless you know those people and you know the context

Shog9

@JourneymanGeek true, but still not an excuse

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 heh, job -2 had ... a bit too much experience at that.

@Telkitty lets see - it tells you where people are fairly easily, and at the very least, I worked out one of the folks was actually in the job I applied for some time back in SE.

Shog9

I used to work in manufacturing; layoffs were a seasonal thing. There were always layoffs, there were always hiring binges, always tense labor negotiations, strikes, etc.

Catija

00:10

I'll just hope that the blog posts include some pretty mock ups from the design team that give us all a better idea of what we can expect a channel to look like.

Journeyman Geek

and there's less likely to be an opening where I (and a few others I suppose!) are interested in for now, which affects whether I want to put in a general application or not.

(which I figure is different from gawking? Almost? Maybe I'm just justifying I donno)

@Shog9 VFX's 90% people wandering around from studio to studio, and their business model is vaguely unsustainable ;p

Catija

I think all of that has to depend on the industry, though... manufacturing is likely going to hire short term seasonal staff just like retail does for holidays or the IRS does for April.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija knowing you're on a short term contract is 'easier'

user202362

Anyone in agriculture would agree - plants/vegetation generally layoff a bunch at the end of autumn so they can regrow a new bunch in spring

user202362

@Catija tech industry does it a lot - companies like microsoft and google do it routinely

Shog9

00:16

of course, you don't necessarily know. There's a certain amount of turnover anyway, and even if you're explicitly a temp worker there's always a chance you'll be given an offer if they want you to stick around past the end of your contract.

Catija

@JourneymanGeek Sure. The question is why, if a company knows that they're unlikely to continue to have work for someone, it often makes more sense to hire on a per-project basis rather than hiring actual "staff". But I don't think that SO is big enough to do that sort of thing.

Journeyman Geek

ya

but that's different ;p

Catija

@Shog9 Yes. Holiday hires at retail often turned into permanent job offers if you performed well and they had room. But we were always hired specifically with the implication that we were on a 4-week hire/2 month hire... etc. I mean, the university book store pulled in ~50 staff for textbook rush and maybe 1-2 would stay on?

Andrew T.

@ShadowWizard yes, I can still reproduce it easily on 1.0.95.

Shog9

@Catija yeah. Now imagine that with a workforce of thousands where a few hundred will go when demand drops, mostly the newer hires, but not necessarily the last few hundred by seniority.

It sucks. So one of the big draws of, uh, office work... is that it tends to be a bit more predictable.

user202362

00:31

@JourneymanGeek that's because you spend so much time on SE :p

Catija

Yeah... might not be on that huge scale but... there's a reason I'm working in an office at a desk rather than working on films and a lot of it has to do with knowing that I'll probably leave my job before it goes away entirely. And insurance.... You know... because $125/day doesn't really get you that.

Oh... woah... it's tomorrow. Apparently UTC doesn't do daylight savings. :/

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer: Taking Ganciclovir and Fluorometholone together by tasha moore on health.SE

Catija

@SmokeDetector Ewwww

Andrew T.

@SmokeDetector Nigeria country code, how surprising

Catija

$100/day profit? That's like... $3K more than what's being paid on the house (assuming it's not paid off). That must be a lot of house.

user202362

00:40

or in a city where rent is high

user202362

still not as high as San Francisco though

user202362

also it takes planning, years of strategy & planning ... and a bit of luck

user202362

And there were tougher times, like a few years ago. But that's over now.

user202362

01:01

if you don't have to worry about your finance, then you can choose to work on more useful/meaningful projects

Catija

That's a big "if".

Journeyman Geek

@Telkitty kinda sorta.

Dukeling

What is the thinking behind unique titles anyway, considering you shouldn't put tags in the title and the same question can apply to multiple languages?

Or was it proven to actually make a noticeable difference in the quality of titles?

Catija

01:21

It was likely designed to help prevent useless titles. If it's used more than once, it's either a duplicate or probably not specific enough.

Anonymous

02:06

hello, world

Journeyman Geek

Hi @JeremyBanks

Anonymous

o/

Shog9

@Dukeling you should put tags in the title. As words, not as prefixes.

"Get current location in Android"
and
"Get current location in iOS"
are both decent titles

1831

Q: What is a NullReferenceException, and how do I fix it?

I have some code and when it executes, it throws a NullReferenceException, saying: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. What does this mean, and what can I do to fix this error?

211

Q: What is a NullPointerException, and how do I fix it?

What are Null Pointer Exceptions (java.lang.NullPointerException) and what causes them? What methods/tools can be used to determine the cause so that you stop the exception from causing the program to terminate prematurely?

java nullpointerexception

Identical except for the critical noun, which is also the critical tag

(first one was originally "in .NET", which was a second tag...)

user202362

Getting current location in iOS is a lot easier than in android, iOS takes care of threading for some basic tasks such as web query

Shog9

02:22

As it should be. Lot less work to get a good martini at the Hilton than at the Motel 6

user202362

android is more like wyndham hotels - there are a range of devices ... for everyone :p

Nick Alexeev

03:38

Somewhere in the SO we have a page where it's possible to look up and plot the time history for tags. Does anyone remember what it was called?

SmokeDetector

03:52

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, link following arrow in body, pattern-matching website in body, pattern-matching website in title, potentially bad keyword in body, +2 more: buyhealthsupplement.com/testo-rev/ by Jacobhidalgo on astronomy.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +6 more: testosteronesboosterweb.com/nuvigor-rx/ by user262786 on apple.SE

Journeyman Geek

04:04

\o/

TheLittleNaruto

Yo o/

Journeyman Geek

(I had the reputation from posts, but not enough answers)

TheLittleNaruto

nice

Andrew T.

05:12

@NickAlexeev insights.stackoverflow.com/trends ?

SmokeDetector

05:59

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened URL in answer: What should I do to remove my belly fat? by user27032 on fitness.SE

alexolut

06:10

@BrianNickel this were a revenge for the lack of new iOS app versions ;) just kidding. Explanations here.

@ShadowWizard more accepts now - more unaccepts later :-D

Journeyman Geek

06:29

@alexolut oh them's fighting words

Travis J

@JourneymanGeek Nice! That is the boat I am in, and well, never really took the time to write up the required extra answers.

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ lots of free time for now, and as a mod, eh, I can answer quite a lot of those.

Travis J

@JourneymanGeek It's more fatigue than anything else. I have the discussion gold tag badge on mSO. Everything kinda starts to blur together with regards to the average user question on metas in general.

Journeyman Geek

06:44

@TravisJ its still good fun for now

Travis J

Fun? Heh, I wish there were more fun in the exchanges.

Especially since tech isn't exactly a boring crowd... wouldn't know it from looking at these metas though.

Journeyman Geek

lol

fun for me is actually in the writing ;p

or more precisely in trying to put across, and convince folks to your point of view. Maaaybe I should quit trying to stay in IT and go into politics ;p

Travis J

oh, yeah, great fun in politics lol

Journeyman Geek

Well, elected moderator and all that ;p

which essentially is almost like politics

Travis J

In a way, yeah.

I have ran for moderator before, but the competition is kinda rough at Stack Overflow. The first time I ran, so did Martijn...

Journeyman Geek

06:47

ah

Lost in SF and AU (but my reasons were standing were odd, and I'm cool with not winning), kinda nailed it on SU

also was a mod pro tem on sr for a bit

Travis J

I don't mind losing, to be honest I would rather have someone like Martijn doing the work. Hard worker, real accurate. Let's me do other things :)

Journeyman Geek

;p

I'm told he's a flag handling machine ;p

Travis J

He must just be like that with anything he puts his mind to.

Journeyman Geek

hah presumably

Travis J

So now that you've got the discussion badge, what next?

Journeyman Geek

06:51

donno? ;p

maybe go for 100k? (eventually ;p)

This is my first non reversal non fanatic gold badge here

Travis J

100k at MSE? heh, that's a long haul! The quantity is just real low.

Journeyman Geek

true, but hit the right posts...

(took me oh 7 years or so to do it on SU ;p)

Travis J

lol reversal x7

nice

Journeyman Geek

one of those was a complaint about me as a (new?) mod ;p

Travis J

hah! oh the irony

I got to 20k just to see stuff like that

Motivation kind waned afterwards

Journeyman Geek

06:56

... That's why I was trying to get 10k initially

(but since I answered I could see it anyway)

Travis J

Oh right, it's 10k. I guess 20k was wanting to delete spam.

Journeyman Geek

flagging works ;p

I suppose 25k gives you stats but that's the most boring one IMO :p

Travis J

I never played the damage over time character :P

Journeyman Geek

lol

naw, marshall badge

;p

Travis J

I suggested getting to see deleted comments at the 30k marker but apparently it was too controversial

If only though, popcorn stocks would skyrocket

Journeyman Geek

06:58

eh, that is also faaaaairly useless

hah, that's true

Travis J

I feel like it would shine a brighter light on the exchanges and on which users are really troublesome versus which users only skirt the line.

Journeyman Geek

99% of deleted comments are probably useless anyway

tbh, the really troublesome ones...

we can just... handle

its the ones on the line

Travis J

Hm

Journeyman Geek

I mean, if someone's solely a troll, I have no qualms giving them the third degree

If someone is mostly a good contributor and sometimes kinda tests the boundaries...

Travis J

Some very active users, who I don't really feel like naming, do seem to be at the center of many user to user griefs, even if they aren't always explicitly named.

Andrew T.

07:01

psst, personal blog...

Journeyman Geek

Someone posted something on SU chat I'd probably consider grounds for account nuking - but he's otherwise fine

@AndrewT. whose? ;p

Andrew T.

well, no follow-up on this

128

Q: What privilege should 30k users get?

The last time we lifted the level cap was in 2015. In 2014, we added a unilateral close-as-duplicate power for gold tag badge holders, but no new reputation level. So we've been thinking about giving users more reasons to keep playing. (I've answered this question with some circumstantial evidenc...

feature-request privileges

Travis J

At least at SO. I am not really as familiar with other exchanges, although I assume it is just a social issue with regards to the style of community interactions available here.

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ some people are just... like that

Travis J

Yeah, but they contribute so much good content, it is like... what to do... for years nothing so I am not sure there is really anything to do.

Journeyman Geek

07:03

@TravisJ hence the "actions" not "users"

On SU they'd plausibly get a be nice mod message anyway

Travis J

Yup, always have to attempt to highlight behaviors in general.

I don't really take issue with that, there are many users who once they see a discussion about their behavior simply change. The ones who kind of ignore the community consensus because either they think they know better, or because of some ... nah it is probably because they think they know better - that is the most complicated situation. I still believe they are under the impression it helps more than it harms and so that is why the behavior persists.

Journeyman Geek

hah ya

I know a few

or kinda don't realise the community and sites have been evolving with time

Travis J

lol yeah definitely, sometimes there is this underlying broken record syndrome for the root cause which for most purposes has already been fixed

For example, closure times. Questions get closed really fast now, and still there are complaints about how long bad questions plague the sites.

There is even roomba who just auto-deletes a bunch of stuff daily.

Andrew T.

and a rogue upvote that prevent roomba

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ or just getting mad at any changes

Travis J

07:16

Now that you mention it, there do seem to be a lot of users who get upset about new large features. I actually liked Documentation, but some people really thought it would be the end of everything.

Journeyman Geek

Yup

I think my main issue with new features is they're seemingly focused towards SO

Channels would be invaluble for say, mods on MSE

Travis J

I felt like the benefit of Documentation was largely in the fact that it improved new user question quality because there was this section of user generated content geared towards helping you get off the ground, so to speak, with the basics.

Journeyman Geek

or useful for engineering teams on SF (which sometimes feels like it needs a shot in the community, they've kinda never really recovered from the chatroom drama)

Travis J

I think that SO just gets the pilot version. Other exchanges could have used docs too. I would have loved to write some docs on rocket league or titanfall 2 for example :)

Journeyman Geek

hm, this needs a final closevote meta.stackexchange.com/questions/302945/…

Andrew T.

07:19

7 minutes ago?

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ I think for a bit the focus was on careers

Travis J

I del voted? :)

Journeyman Geek

so did I

@AndrewT. Caching!

@TravisJ a bit too much so

Magisch

3 people voted to close the new meta.SO channel announcement

Journeyman Geek

I mean, that was where the money was coming from boooot

Travis J

07:20

Yeah, like, what was that for @Magisch

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch See? this is what I mean by people hating anything new

Travis J

It kinda annoyed me

Magisch

It annoys me because everyone >3k knows full well that the team won't let their announcement get closed

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch its the lack of principles of the thing? ;p

Travis J

Careers. Yeah, but here is the thing. Honestly, software developers are some of the most employed people out there. Us, and medical doctors, have the same unemployment rate, which is basically 2% (really low).

Magisch

07:21

You don't simply close a post written by the SO community team. They can and will reopen it, and the only reason the UI doesn't prevent you from doing that is because you're expected to behave

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ and if you do it right, you're not going to get that many repeat job seekers

Magisch

Closing announcements isn't "civil disobedience", it's just annoying.

Journeyman Geek

and companies would be filling for growth

Travis J

#neverendinggobstopper

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ that said, its kind of a 'obvious' place to make money from, and apparently did provide 2/3 of SE's revenue according to the HN article.

Travis J

07:22

Oh, well, that's nifty.

It doesn't really bother me, I understand the need to generate revenue.

rene

@JourneymanGeek congrats! I'm 9 answers short ...

Journeyman Geek

Oh, I wasn't overfond of the blog basically being clickbait + ads

Travis J

I don't really pay much attention to the blog anyway. Also, hopefully this isn't taboo, but I don't really buy into the conclusions from some of the data science in the blogs.

Magisch

I don't think it's clickbait tbh

It's an ad, yes, but one of the less offensive ads out there

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch It even had numbered lists ._.

Magisch

07:25

@TravisJ I don't either but meh

Journeyman Geek

like, numbered lists are like, the lowest form of bloggery

Travis J

Unless one of the numbers is ????.

Magisch

At least each number of the list isn't on a separate site to maximize on-load ads

Journeyman Geek

Well that wasn't really the point.

Magisch

Yeah but we were talking about the most egregious outgrowths of clickbait

Journeyman Geek

07:26

they're relatively easy to write, basically link out a lot (so you don't even need to know the subject...)

Travis J

So, first and foremost, revenue generation is prevented from any sort of user contribution. That doesn't leave many avenues. Ads is kinda it.

Journeyman Geek

I mean, something like stackoverflow.blog/2017/10/25/…

@TravisJ or apparently, least from the announcements, focusing more on SO enterprise and channels

Magisch

failing some kind of premium subscription, SE needs to make money somehow

Travis J

That blog post was about me. #humble

lol :P

Magisch

And since they have VC capital, they need to make a lot of money, too

Journeyman Geek

07:28

@Magisch channels is more or less the premium subscription ;p

Magisch

I mean like a premium subscription for QA users

Travis J

@JourneymanGeek I think there is a legitimate place for SO enterprise.

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ yup

Magisch

Although I'm unsure of what you would put as premium rewards

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch but what would that give you?

Magisch

07:29

@JourneymanGeek No clue

Travis J

Premium rewards? I got this in a word. Hats.

Lemme buy a hat.

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ ... I draw the line at loot chests.

Magisch

I can't come up with something that'd go over well

Travis J

Loot chests do kinda piss me off, mostly because of the randomness.

(random stat) of loot from loot chests does not apply to me.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch if it was easy, someone would have thought of it ;)

Magisch

07:30

I dislike loot chests intensely

When games have them I never use them

Travis J

I can't help it :(

Magisch

I hate virtual gambling. If I'd want to spend money to maybe get something I'd want that something to be more money

Travis J

Wants teh loot.

Journeyman Geek

also, outside winterbash, you do realise you could just photoshop a hat on your ava right?

or put a hat on your dog...

Magisch

My avatar has a hat

and a headset

Travis J

07:31

Besides, I spend like, okay wont mention how much, on drinks on the weekends so what's the big deal about a few bucks towards loot entertainment?

Magisch

that I made (badly) with GIMP like 13 years ago

Travis J

My avatar is only hats.

Journeyman Geek

payment to get out of question bans that incrementally increase? ;p But that's almost like extortion.

Travis J

And who doesn't like some good ol' extortion! Right? No? Oh.. well this is awkward..

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek That'd also make QA worse

Travis J

07:34

Yeah that's true.

Magisch

And people would get even madder when their questions get closed and deleted

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch You don't think I'm serious right? ;p

Magisch

"But I paid to ask this. You have to answer!"

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch popcorn sales would go through the roof

Travis J

I would really dislike it if on top of some random user being like I NEED IT MEOW to then also be like DO EET I PAID! DO EET NOW all in everyone's face.

Magisch

07:34

I saw a meta.SE question of someone asking something akin to this

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ "Ha ha. VTCs"

@Magisch and people wanting to buy rep

Magisch

Like microtransactions to force other users to answer/read your questions

Journeyman Geek

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/302884/… answers here need flags/delvotes

Magisch

Someone literally had the idea that you should be able to pay to put an undismissable message on targeted user's screens

Journeyman Geek

0_0

Travis J

07:35

@JourneymanGeek super downvote! :P

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ I hit them with both ;p

Travis J

I don't find enough legitimate uses for that lol

Magisch

If you could buy a subscription like power to make your downvote count triple or so I'd do that :p

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch ehh. Seems almost vindictive

I don't remember if SE still sells sponsored tags

they used to do it on SO

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I'd view it as burying noise more effectively

Travis J

07:37

I think they do

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ was a SO thing I suppose

Travis J

But I can't imagine it being very lucrative

Magisch

I've been trying to find that meta post

And looking through the most downvoted stuff on MSE is a tour to behold indeed

Journeyman Geek

Well, I suppose not

@Magisch and that's not even the deleted stuff

Travis J

Sometimes if I dupehammer, then the OP comments me much later "okay, but then I need to also do Y to it"

I get like one a week

Magisch

07:42

> I think moderators start to close every single question possible before the election to gain rep [closed]

That's so far removed from how any of this works I'm pretty shocked

Journeyman Geek

Linkie!

@Magisch heh David Postill had a candidate score of 49 before our election....

the only badge he needed for a perfect score was...

for voting in an election...

Travis J

-34

Q: I think moderators start to close every single question possible before the election to gain rep

I'm looking at closed questions by moderators that nominate at current election, and I feel like 70% of question the closed are usual questions, with no real reason to close them. I have checked more then 100 last closed question. I could share the links, but do not want to do this work again...

discussion reputation closed-questions election

It wasn't supposed to one box =/

shakes fist

Journeyman Geek

@TravisJ hmm meta.stackexchange.com/questions/169453/…

hah!

Travis J

Yeah, it was my own fault. I forgot about replying with a link

Journeyman Geek

;)

@TravisJ I actually almost missed the SU election...

Travis J

07:49

By comparison, I completely missed it.

Journeyman Geek

and my initial stump was more or less "I'm on vacation with limited internet, and typing this on my phone. I'm standing"

Travis J

hi @balpha :)

balpha

heyhey

Travis J

Do you ever take a step back in chat, and reflect on actually being the one who implemented it?

balpha

Not all by myself :)

but yes, sometimes that realization hits me

Journeyman Geek

07:53

lol

@balpha and a very good chat it is ;)

(cause gawd, I am suprised no one has knocked off chat.SE's way of doing replies)

Travis J

It is actually very stable for the millions of messages it has.

Journeyman Geek

>_>

(3rd chattiest user on chat.se ;p)

I think

Travis J

lol

balpha

@JourneymanGeek we use both slack and this chat internally at the company -- I created a user style and user script to make slack look like SE chat, and to give me that kind of replies

Magisch

who is the first one and why is it shog?

Journeyman Geek

07:55

@Magisch actually no

Travis J

I was an RO for a while in the c# room before it got kinda way too NSFW, and the original messages in that room were kind of inspiring to see

Journeyman Geek

Cerberus has 456k messages, Smokey has 404k (but he's spammy ;p) then me with only 319k

Travis J

rlemon is probably first

504k

Journeyman Geek

chat.so?

Shadow Wizard

@alexolut well if you ever want to leave SE quickly and don't want to wait for account deletion, you have a way now..... :D

Travis J

07:57

yeah

not a onebox, just a link

Journeyman Geek

I've probably never been there ;p

Shadow Wizard

@TravisJ really? Horse head is NSFW? :/

Journeyman Geek

@balpha ya, slacks own implimentation sucks

Travis J

@ShadowWizard What? Oh no that was a play on my accidental one box of a undeserving question earlier

Andrew T.

I think Jason C has done something regarding parsing & counting chat message on this room

Shadow Wizard

07:59

@TravisJ oh saw something about NSFW before and now you won't onebox so made 1+1

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard more like he didn't want the earlier thing oneboxing

Travis J

@ShadowWizard The NSFW was the c# chat room. It really hit a downward spiral.

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