Tavern on the Meta

Shadow The Burning Wizard

12:20 AM

Going to sleep, hope my new post will survive the night...

Rob

12:38 AM

@ymb1 I think your post would be better with an edit, rather than deletion.

Madness - This is SE

1:09 AM

I wonder how SE feels about active and past employees chipping into Shog's fundraiser openly.

ArtOfCode

2:09 AM

@Madness-ThisisSE thanks for the reminder

jscs

2:40 AM

Something to read if you're looking for a little irony in your day: communitybuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/1220/…

With an accepted answer by someone who's now an SE CM.

Journeyman Geek

3:18 AM

→ 48 messages moved to Chimney

Cody Gray

3:34 AM

@jscs I think it proves, if Shog's tweets didn't already, that the problem is not related to failings or ignorance on the part of the CMs.

@AdrianMole You rang? I'm not a cat. Hope you aren't disappointed.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

3:47 AM

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/17426433/thao1108nguyen

Chipster

4:30 AM

So, could someone tell me what Robert Cartaino has done for SO? I'm a newcommer, and I know Shog9 by reputation (I've seen his name on many meta posts), but I'm not familiar with Robert Cartaino and his contribution to SE. Could someone fill me in?

Cody Gray

@Chipster If someone were to try and sum it up in a chat reply, they would not be doing Robert justice. Unless maybe that summary were "a hell of a lot".

Robert was primarily hired as a community organizer. As such, he didn't do as much on SO proper, since that was already an established site. Shog handled things on SO more so than Robert, which is why his name is more familiar to you.

But Robert was instrumental in expanding the Stack Exchange network beyond Stack Overflow. In particular, he was almost solely responsible for Area 51, the new site creation process used by Stack Exchange.

Chipster

@CodyGray Well sure. Are there any meta posts I could read up on, or something though?

@CodyGray Ah, okay.

Cody Gray

Nearly all of the "Stack Exchange 2.0" sites (nowadays, everything with a *.stackexchange.com domain) are Robert's doing, both in imagination, creation, and then building. He moderated the Area 51 site itself, and he moderated many/most of the new sites during their "beta" and early launch phases.

I don't have any Meta discussions on-hand that I could refer you to. Robert's contributions evolved over many years, and are therefore scattered out all over the place.

And, of course, what I summarized here is only his major public contribution. I'm sure he did countless things in private that I don't even know about because the team really worked as a team, not tending to give specific credit to individuals for things.

Robert was a regular on Meta Stack Exchange (the global Meta), answering questions and doing all the stuff Shog did on MSO, too.

Chipster

So it's not like Shog9 where his name is everywhere that makes it easy to point to and say "here's what he did."

Cody Gray

Maybe less of a stats nerd than Shog9, but no worse at reading people and understanding how to get stuff done.

@Chipster You can do that with Shog? I can't. What would you point to?

Chipster

4:37 AM

And SE let both of them go. Sigh...

Cody Gray

Many choose to interpret Robert's departure as a sign that Area 51 no longer matters, and that Stack Exchange isn't nearly as interested in building new sites and maintaining the smaller communities as they once were.

It certainly has a ring of truth to it, but it has been denied at least once on MSE in a discussion about Area 51 being without moderators.

Chipster

Well this, for instance, is something where you can see Shog9's influence as a leader. His stuff is everywhere, but there are a few goodies here an there where you can see him shine.

Cody Gray

Shog posted that on pretty much every site like clockwork with the new year. I...don't really think that shows him being a leader.

If you haven't already, do read George Stocker's retrospectives on what Shog contributed. Those really show him being a leader.

Chipster

He has access to stats that he wouldn't otherwise have if he weren't a leader. I suppose it doesn't demonstrate his leadership skills, but it shows that he contributed a lot of work crafting those stats, and to think he did that for every site.

Again, it doesn't demonstrate the best of his leadership qualities, but it's just an example of seeing his contribution. That is all I am saying.

Cody Gray

Nah, he had a script. :-)

But yeah, I mean, obviously he took the time to write that script because he cared. He cared a lot, enough to get him into trouble.

Chipster

4:50 AM

BTW: don't take this as a "Why should I care about Robert Cartaino?" It was purely I just didn't know. I wasn't familiar with his name. I'm sure he cared a lot too. Enough to get him in trouble ;)

Cody Gray

I didn't take it that way at all.

It is rather understandable that a Stack Overflow user would have less knowledge of and exposure to Robert's efforts.

That you care enough to ask is, I think, enough of a compliment.

I haven't observed Robert's hand directly in quite a while, either, honestly, because I've mostly localized my activity to SO since becoming a moderator there.

Chipster

I'm a new user, but I've known of SO for years. But because I never signed up, I didn't watch it's internal workings to know what was going on. I just found its countless useful Q & As. And that made me respect the site quite a lot, even if I didn't finally sign up until about a year ago.

Cody Gray

I see. Yeah, I think that's how most everyone ended up here and earned the respect for/admiration of that they now possess so strongly.

When the site started, I was just beginning to teach myself programming, so it was a natural fit.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

5:29 AM

edit-reject-pls meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/70128

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

5:57 AM

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/17463359/rimaroy

user400654

6:09 AM

o/

Journeyman Geek

→ 2 messages moved to Chimney

Martin

6:25 AM

Recent Shog9's answer on Thank you, Shog9 is up there among the answers with top score. There are 9 answers with score at least 1000 and only 4 answers with score at least 1400.

Journeyman Geek

@Martin And I would accept nothing less personally

Cody Gray

This is noe the 5th highest scoring answer on MSE, and still rapidly climbing the ranks. Lets honour Shog9 by making it the highest scored answer ever. — Luuklag 16 hours ago

It's also interesting to note how many of the top-scoring Meta answers are related to recent missteps by the company.

Those are massively outscoring even much older, long-established discussion about how to run the site.

Pretty clear that these things aren't just flying under the radar, escaping notice by all but the most vigilant of Meta users.

In a strange way, I find that somewhat reassuring.

2

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray Its featured

:D

Cody Gray

Right, right.

The featured debacle is a whole other thing that is also happening now.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray and yanno what?

ert

6:38 AM

@JourneymanGeek ...For now:)

Journeyman Geek

I think at this point as at any point so far, either I moderate as per my concience, or they can take my diamond.

As I have done the entire time I've been a mod

Magisch

I think if they do that they'd have to close meta down

Cody Gray

@JourneymanGeek Mhmm. I suspect that's pretty much how all of us who are still standing feel.

Journeyman Geek

though, I'm on a short break

I just don't have the spoons to deal with other people's mistakes right now.

Cody Gray

Moderating using our judgment is, not coincidentally, what we were asked to do when we were elected, not only by our communities (obviously), but also by staff.

Journeyman Geek

6:40 AM

Yup

Cody Gray

Yeah, a lot of spoons would be needed to whack everyone who deserves it. I don't think I have that many spoons, either.

Journeyman Geek

Oh

for that, I have a special one....

Alas, I can't really use it

I think its like half a kilo and soild steel ;D

Cody Gray

If we get demodded, who will feature our swan songs?

Journeyman Geek

Someone will likely ask why on meta :D

That's what happened the last time

Cody Gray

You can always count on that.

Until everyone leaves and stops caring, then you can't count on it anymore. :-(

Journeyman Geek

6:45 AM

Then that's fine

it means everyone who matters is already gone, and I'm not needed

Chipster

If Cody gets demodded, you bet I'm asking. Journeyman, maybe. That's only because I don't know you as well as I do Cody.

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster I still have a little love on SU :D

Chipster

I'm not on SU (actually at all, really), as much. So that's probably why I don't know you as well. If you hung out in SOCVR, I might know you better.

Cody Gray

Folks would ask about me with popcorn at the ready, just because they know there'd be a story.

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster which is understandable :D

Chipster

6:57 AM

Maybe I should hang out on SU. I'm not sure if I could be useful though. I would probably end up mostly just watching.

Cody Gray

Worried you're not really all that super, @Chipster?

Chipster

I'm technically IT, but most of my expertise is more coding. I recon I would learn a lot, though.

I'm certainly no Linux or Windows expert. I'm sure there are lots of people there who could run circles around me.

Journeyman Geek

Nor am I :D

and with some of the more exotic stuff I do, its sometimes "whoa"

Chipster

So is it a case of "those who can't, moderate," lol?

Cody Gray

@Chipster You could hang out on English and learn the spelling of "reckon".

Journeyman Geek

7:01 AM

Well - good community folks don't always have god level technical skills.

Chipster

@CodyGray Did I ever mention I'm bad at spelling?

Cody Gray

Actually, no, I don't think you did.

Chipster

@JourneymanGeek That's true, I guess.

Journeyman Geek

12

A: How do I deploy IPv6 within a LAN using a Debian based router and prefix delegation?

You didn't say who your ISP was, but the following works on Comcast in areas where they have rolled out IPv6. I had to use wide-dhcpv6-client since none of the other DHCPv6 clients could handle all of getting an address for the ISP-facing interface, prefix delegation, and Comcast's maximum /60 n...

this is an example of something that was obscure, insanely difficult and probably saved me weeks of free time

Chipster

@CodyGray Huh, I actually think I mentioned it once. I misspelled a word once I think you said something like it hurt your eyes.

Cody Gray

7:03 AM

Huh. Well, good news is, my memory is terrible and I don't hold grudges.

Chipster

lol

Cody Gray

So...you do IT but your expertise is coding? How'd that happen? And how do you manage to do IT without becoming either a Linux or Windows expert?

Chipster

I was wrong: you said it triggered you.

Cody Gray

Oh yeah. Absolutely did not remember that was you.

Mithical

@Martin The answer is the fourth highest voted answer on MSE and the question is about to become the eight highest question. A fitting send-off.

Journeyman Geek

7:09 AM

@Mithical I hope it goes up to the highest

in both respects

Chipster

Basically, my major was programming, but I had to take a few hardware classes. I was trying to get a programming job, but I found an IT one first. It was supposed to be temporary, but I just ended up staying in IT. But because of the size of the company, I don't really do a lot of IT. That's more so my title. I just do it when it's needed, and other things when it's not.

Cody Gray

Let's turn Shog9 up to 11.

Chipster

@JourneymanGeek Ah, yes. Good ol' IPv6. Looking at the date, I would imagine it was even more obscure then.

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster actually

My issue was... last year?

I've switched IPV methods 3x times so far :D

Chipster

Oh, lol.

Journeyman Geek

7:12 AM

Old router supported it out of the box

this was that ISP on my own router

Cody Gray

What did you switch to after IPv6?

Chipster

Yeah, IPv6 is slowly making its way into the world. A lot slower than people expected, I think.

Journeyman Geek

journeymangeek.com/?p=200

@CodyGray Native to Hurricane Electric Tunnel

journeymangeek.com/?p=228

this is the HE tunnel setup

Cody Gray

What happened to the days when you just got cable service, plugged it in, and it worked?

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray Oh, that's for Filthy Casuals :D

(I kid)

Chipster

7:14 AM

They left when ISPs realized they could charge installation fees.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray Building stuff like this is how I get through the tough times

@CodyGray You could probably get similar performance with less work and better wifi with a medium or high end router

But not practically eternal support :D

Cody Gray

Oh, I see. You were building your own router on Linux?

Journeyman Geek

Yup

Cody Gray

I did that once. Then decided life was too short.

Journeyman Geek

journeymangeek.com/?p=196

Bit of a Mutt actually

Cody Gray

7:19 AM

Yeah, you did it on modern hardware. I did this back in like 1998.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray well and hardware that was kinda designed for it

Cody Gray

4 GB of HDD space for a router? Sheesh.

Journeyman Geek

though, I did get this running on a SBC too

Cody Gray

What kind of SBC? Something boring like a Pi?

Chipster

If you try hard enough, I'm sure any Linux machine can do it. Provided you have enough Ethernet cards.

Journeyman Geek

7:20 AM

@CodyGray Orange Pi R2 with armbian

Cody Gray

@Chipster If you're going to try hard, you can try a Windows machine!

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster ah! See, the hardware I use has 4 buillt in gigabit ports

@CodyGray firewalld makes administering this easier - I have some small helper scripts

Chipster

@CodyGray Ugh. I'm stressed now just thinking of that.

@JourneymanGeek Or there's that.

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster Actually a router on a stick config is something I want to try too

I have a cheap managed switch incoming

Cody Gray

@Chipster And I don't mean that PowerShell stuff. Good old batch scripts FTW!

Chipster

7:22 AM

Actually, a server edition of Windows might be okay for this, but forget a home version.

Cody Gray

FreeDOS on a USB flash stick

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster I'll do that if I ever pick up drinking :D

@CodyGray well technically....

I know XP did this out of the box

Cody Gray

Routing? Yeah. Teaming? No.

Chipster

USB computers was something I always wanted to try. Never thought of doing a router with it though.

Cody Gray

Teaming is your issue even with FreeDOS, as far as I know. I don't know if there are open-source packages that will do it.

Journeyman Geek

7:23 AM

@CodyGray the intel drivers support that

on windows

practicallynetworked.com/sharing/xp_ics

this was literally my first network

one of those and a ethernet hub

I don't mean fast ethernet

I mean ethernet

Cody Gray

Yeah, I was doing IT work back circa 2000. Most of my knowledge is out of date now.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray hasn't changed that much I suspect

I'm pretty much using prettily wrapped IPtables commands

Cody Gray

Not really, no. Windows just crashes in spectacular new ways.

Chipster

Now you debug C++ for people, yes?

Journeyman Geek

:D

Cody Gray

7:25 AM

I debug C++ for myself, I'd say. I'm the one who writes the bugs.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Rob RE meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/70126: please consider reading meta.stackexchange.com/a/304283/377214

Journeyman Geek

oh

also

this is fun

4

Q: Tenda MW6 mesh is talking to baidu -what is it doing?

I recently picked up a set of tenda MW6 mesh units - I'm running this in "bridged" mode, since that's the only option that turns off their dhcp server. The primary mesh unit connected to a DIY linux router (ubuntu, with firewalld. The full setup is here) - which allows me to run a few more intere...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Deliberately connecting to Chinese websites so that it still works even when in China...nice idea

Cody Gray

Did you ever wireshark that traffic?

What a great comment.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray oh

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:27 AM

@Rob the anonymous editor of the data dump is Jeremy, he's suspended so that's his only legit way to contribute.

Journeyman Geek

We were talking about it on chat

Chipster

You lost me at "bridged" is the only way to turn of DHCP. Why?

Journeyman Geek

@Chipster hm?

Its a quirk of the firmware

there's no AP only mode

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray I always assume any Chinese software sends anything it can to their servers, to be processed at some point.

Chipster

Weird. Sometimes I just don't understand designers.

Cody Gray

7:29 AM

@ShadowTheBurningWizard That's not limited to Chinese software....

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowTheBurningWizard that's why I was poking around it on iftop :D

Cody Gray

@Chipster That's why you reverse engineer it and dump on your own firmware.

Or just build your own in Linux.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray oh

If there was a good FOSS/linux based AP I'd go for it

but a few moving parts I'd like (mesh for example) are frustratingly non standard

also

the tendas are rediculously cheap (~40-50 dollars a node) and work decently as long as you're ok with management via app, and not ever hooking up the cloud management functionality (which breaks management via app)

I need to reset and re-configure mine at one point :D

Cody Gray

I've seriously never used any of this stuff. I just plug in a cable modem and go.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray ._.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:36 AM

@CodyGray sadly true

Journeyman Geek

like

One PC?

looks around

Wouldn't work for me :D

Chipster

@CodyGray That's true. If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself :D

Cody Gray

No. Back at home, I had a 32-port Gigabit switch for the main, fast stuff, and then another 64-port 10/100 switch for the older stuff that didn't have Gigabit ports anyway.

Journeyman Geek

ah

>_>

So...

I used to run an asus router...

Cody Gray

I did use an off-the-shelf wireless router for the one laptop and phone that was wireless. I'm not much of a wireless guy.

Journeyman Geek

7:37 AM

which would bog down when I did backups to my NAS :D

Cody Gray

Anything that can be wired, should be wired.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@It'sOver ugh.... any way to make it not over?

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray oh, the linux router is for wired :D

Shadow The Burning Wizard

I'll be sorry to see you go, @It's - for real, I'm afraid. What will make you stay?

Magisch

my last ditch effort is here: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/342283/…

Cody Gray

7:38 AM

So the router is for things like QoS and prioritization? I've never needed anything that complex on my own network.

Journeyman Geek

but we also have phones

@CodyGray Well I could do that

Magisch

I fully understand if you don't accept it.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray practically - I was planning on throwning a VPN server on this

It's Over

@ShadowTheBurningWizard I guess I'll pop in here and elsewhere as often as I do now, which is not often at all

But well, that was my final straw and a name change is overdue.

Cody Gray

@Magisch Soon as you let me know what these "feedback mechanisms they provide" are, I'll consider it.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

7:40 AM

@It'sOver points to an empty room

Magisch

@CodyGray So far, it seems to be surveys. They'll probably push more surveys later. There will also be a moderator council of sorts. If I were a mod, I would endeavour to be on that. The chance to be listened to is infinitely higher then on meta

cause any chance at all is higher then confirmed uselessness

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch the funny thing is - when things were decent, I was going to sit out the mod council anyway

On the other hand

Cody Gray

@Magisch I've signed up for every survey, interview, and everything else I could get my hands on, going back some time now. I've yet to be contacted.

Journeyman Geek

"Co-operate or the CMs get it" sounds terrible

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek life is terrible sometimes

terrible, unfair, unfun. It happens. But just because it's unfair doesn't mean life will stop doing it.

Mithical

7:43 AM

@Magisch That's what I had in mind when I wrote "...whether or not I would be in a better position to help push through changes that I'd like to see if I did have my diamond back...". But at this rate I don't know if there will be anyone left to sit on that council.

Journeyman Geek

You don't always have to co-operate though

Cody Gray

All these darn name changes and resignations, I don't even know who is who anymore.

Magisch

you're right. as I said in that post, i understand if you don't think it's worth it or fair

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and we're grown ups

Shadow The Burning Wizard

Are you sure? ;)

Journeyman Geek

7:45 AM

I can accept that you have a different idea of what someone may feel is best for the community without deciding you're the enemy

Mithical

@ShadowTheBurningWizard THAT'S MY LINE *pouts*

Cody Gray

I will say, Magisch, that the post is really well written, and you're being amazingly mature and adult about this.

Journeyman Geek

I almost used "poopyhead" instead of enemy

But we're all grownups here :D

Mithical

At the moment I feel like I have a better chance of getting the State of Florida to be less annoying and let me register to vote than getting SE to change direction at all.

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@Mithical you're too slow! ;)

Cody Gray

7:49 AM

@Magisch Since you are reading Shog's Twitter feed, I assume the answer is yes, but did you see the conversation he had with Mark Amery?

Using Twitter when you don't have an account is awful, so I can't find it now, but I read it a few hours ago when I had a link to it.

Mark used the choice phrase "asshole filter", in case Twitter has...like...a search feature?

Magisch

@CodyGray I'm not logged in at work

Mithical

twitter.com/XplodingCabbage/status/1217556263153872896?s=20

Shadow The Burning Wizard

@CodyGray it has, probably just for those with account

Cody Gray

Bingo, @Mithical. This: twitter.com/shog9/status/1217557293518196736

"regardless of tone"

Mithical

Anyway... looks like I have a Medium article to write.

(someone remind me in three and a half hours please)

ert

7:53 AM

Well... until now, I was only 99% sure that the people who made the decisions didn't read/hear about things on meta

Magisch

outside of what I wrote, I got nothing

ert

Unfortunate to find out I wasn't wrong

Cody Gray

I suspect they did hear about them, @ert. They got rid of the source by which they heard about them, sanitized though they may have been.

Chipster

The sad thing is, I see the organization dying from the inside out. The best people are either leaving or getting fired. There's only so long that will continue before if falls under its own weight.

ert

@CodyGray I took the "didn't register" to mean that they're completely uninterested in it, which is close enough :). Whether or not the CMs continued to relay the information after knowing it was pointless, I'm not sure

Cody Gray

7:57 AM

Yeah.

I don't know what source of inspiration these people are listening to.

Having the anchor of the community lose faith and collapse is not healthy, no matter what your goal is.

Journeyman Geek

@CodyGray I have theories, but not for here

ert

They're banking on riding on the good contributions in the past still generating enough page views, imo

Journeyman Geek

@ert and a certain degree of brand name recognition drawing eyeballs

ert

That new quality contributions steadily drop off won't have a monetary impact for a while

Magisch

@CodyGray If you're looking at it from their perspective, you can kind of see the logic. They've said they're not capturing a huge part of the global dev community. If you view your (potential) userbase as everyone who writes code, then you can end up in this.

JAD

7:59 AM

So it seems to me like there's two extremes: Keep using meta, which strengthens the case of those that want to get rid of it. Stop using meta, which effectively gets rid of it. Is there a feasible middle way that has a different outcome?

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