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3:01 PM
I took a very high elevator once, and the guide told us how we just lost some % of our weight, I don't remember what the number was, just that bit from the trip :p
 
Ugh, @GeorgeStocker overtook me (or is it undertook?) on the answer score. I shall do better one day ... :p
 
@Bart I just don't answer anymore it solved this problem
 
It's MSO. They can't do anything to me with their silly downvotes! ;)
 
@user1306322 there is not. The problem the RO team faces is that we want to allow discussion to happen, also the difficult ones, where everyone feels invited, welcome and safe to participate.
We can't preemptively know when a line is crossed but as soon as someone seems to indicate this is the case the RO's have to judge, decide, coordinate and take action. That takes some time. We do try to explain what we thought was over the edge but that might happen only after we kicked users and cleaned up stuff. At the current speed of the transcript we sometimes seem sluggish to respond. I ask for your understanding.
 
Aaaand, I'm almost out of votes on MSE again
 
3:07 PM
@JohnDvorak I'd suggest taking half your votes each day and investing them against a decent interest so over time you have a sufficient amount of votes.
 
@Bart I'm investing all of them. Are you suggesting me to vote less?
 
and one box still fails
 
@Mgetz it is on hiatus
 
@rene of course, very understandable.
 
3:12 PM
@rene did it go on strike too?
 
twitter onebox broke? since when?
 
months ago I think
 
really
 
too lazy to go find the bug report
 
how does something break in a system that's not being updated
 
3:13 PM
maybe just here then? I thought I saw it working recently
 
@Mgetz it got refactored to a non-working state
 
@KevinB because it is?
 
@KevinB twitter's api got updated I think
 
@rene there is a term for that that I can't use here...
 
it broke some of my addons that expand images to full size, had to update those
 
3:14 PM
@Mgetz it is on .Net core 3.0 so it must be good
 
@rene See #6
 
lol
 
lordy, the recent FAQ about pronouns is a complete trainwreck for all the wrong reasons
 
I wonder what a train wreck for all the right reasons would look like ...
2
 
@Bart testing the safety equipment
 
3:19 PM
the star wall is going faster than on da super siikrit chat room!?
 
i could understand it being a trainwreck if the planned CoC changes were awful, but i'm getting a lot of low-key transphobic vibes about people not wanting to refer to people with the singular they/them
 
@JohnDvorak damn you and your flawless logic
 
@Bart that spiderman scene comes to mind
 
YEAH YEAH, I GET IT!
 
3:20 PM
nice trainwreck
 
for the right reasons :)
 
... if only SCP is real...
 
ah I remember a vid where they were like "let's remove this much railroad" and the train wouldn't derail
until they removed like an entire cart's length of the rails
 
@AlexRobinson assume positive intent please. It's a complex subject made more complex by the fact that there are more non-native english speakers than native ones
 
assuming those who disagree are X is... well problematic at best
 
3:23 PM
@KevinB the word "problematic" itself is problematic.
 
there are some legitimate concerns with language barriers that i acknowledge, but i STRONGLY feel a page about being inclusive with gender neutral language would do a lot more good than these CoC changes
on many SE's people will say "he/she" in an attempt to show their gender neutrality, but it isn't as inclusive as it should be
 
@AlexRobinson not disagreeing, also shifting the focus to tolerance rather than focusing solely on acceptance.
 
By trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing nobody.
 
@Mgetz could you elaborate on what you mean by shifting focus to tolerance?
 
@AlexRobinson the current language seems to mandate acceptance, and seems to make it seem that anything other than 100% acceptance is well... not tolerated. However in side conversations that doesn't seem to be the intent. Trying to get people to accept everyone is a lost cause. But we do have to tolerate and at least be courteous to each other. That as far as I can tell is the intent
 
3:29 PM
Forcing acceptance is way too far. To some people, it's basically forcing them to march in the pride parade.
Tolerance is much more achievable and useful.
 
@Mgetz, may i ask, do you use pronouns that don't allign with your assigned gender?
 
You can't, it's not a case of it even being possible. If you try to force it people will dig in
@AlexRobinson I'm going to decline to answer that question, on the basis it's none of your business
 
thats a vaild and fair answer
as someone who does not, seeing people who refuse to use them is invalidating and damaging to my mental health - something i'm not sure many people who don't, realise
 
At some point, you have to play the numbers game and ask if it's worth annoying many thousands to please a small handful.
 
thats awfully cynical and pragmatic of you
 
3:36 PM
Cynicism is the friend that has never let me down.
 
Where I am wrong and I got 3CV meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335160/… ?
If not agree , DV why close ?
 
spam posts are normally very self-evident and i honestly don't think its that important of an issue
 
@Shree AFAIK, it's an experiment only on SO.
 
Thanks whoever pointed me to the python chatroom, not only do I now have a working script, but I'm even putting it ON THE WEB xD
(This could never possibly go wrong).
 
@MetaAndrewT. Don't raise question against experiment ? :( . And it's closed.
 
3:47 PM
@AlexRobinson I'm not against respecting people's pronouns or even requiring courtesy. but when it's phased as it is, it comes off much harsher than intended. They aren't asking people to change who they are, they are asking people to be courteous in general.
 
@Shree ask on MSO please, not MSE...
 
I find it sad I even have to say "I'm not against" 😞
 
@Shree its site police to close meta questions that only apply to ONE se (in this case, stack overflow
@Mgetz i agree its phrased harshly, but the rules themselves are very solid
 
@AlexRobinson as an american and someone with trust in various other communities outside of SE. I'm going to disagree. They are worded in such a way that lawyerish trolls with exploit to target the very groups they are intended to protect.
 
@MetaAndrewT. I understand MSO vs MSE and feel same when go with smokey :(
 
3:50 PM
Keeping pronouns in greetings which would be otherwise be deleted is not solid. The rules are almost good and need some improvements.
 
@Mgetz it always happens. The greatest harms are often done by those who mean well but don't think things through.
 
reminder that they aren't forcing anyone to use pronouns when they otherwise wouldn't
just that if you ARE to use pronouns to use the correct ones
 
@AlexRobinson That's actually unclear, answers from SE staff have been conflicting on the matter.
 
and even then, if not known just use singular they. is it really that hard
and question 12
 
@AlexRobinson not everybody accepts that, which again causes issues hence the concerns. Moreover it's not natural to the vast majority of ESL users
 
3:52 PM
"is it really that hard" arguments do not help.
 
@AlexRobinson be careful about assuming gender please
 
@Shree not sure about Smokey, but we have been closing/migrating questions about SO Jobs & Developer Story on MSE to MSO because they're only applicable on SO. And also this particular experiment.
 
Dear lord, I will say that all this would have been a lot less painful had they not so fantastically botched Monica's firing.
 
@MetaAndrewT. Thanks I miss understood may I re-post or it's migrate ?
 
@Mgetz i apologise, what pronouns should i use?
 
3:55 PM
The intent of the requirement is to avoid users feeling singled-out, disrespected or invalidated. If someone's natural writing style always pertains equitably to everyone through typical discourse or isn't frequently interpreted as a clever means to avoid someone's stated pronouns, then, in theory, one might conclude that would work. In practice, it may simply not, and if we received multiple complaints of deliberately avoiding someone's pronouns, regardless of the intent, we'd need to take corrective action. — Cesar M ♦ 23 hours ago
@AlexRobinson in public I generally avoid pronouns in general
 
@Shree delete and repost is a quicker way. No need to wait for migration (that might not even come)
 
noted
 
The issue is the last part of that quote
2
> regardless of the intent
 
@SolveIt And had they not illegally retroactively changed the license. And had they not show bad adds. Even Monica's issue would have not sparked such reaction if a lot of people were not already fed up from previous instances.
 
@Shree or consider posting it as an answer on that meta announcement post
 
3:58 PM
people like to nit-pick hypotheticals. i disagree with the intent of that comment (like you?) but in general, i can't say i know anyone who would feel misgendered or invalidated by a lack of pronouns
 
@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos people might not even have cared about the licence change if they weren't already fed up
its happened a few times with little drama
 
Evening: a free question for the weekend. I see that many moderators here - people that based on my understanding should have access to the TL room an should have take part to the three days CoC "closed door review" are *still* uncertain about it, how it is worded an such. I have been silently watching the transcript and I saw little more being discussed today, with no general agreement.
Please do not misinterpreted this question, but I need to know. Did anyone tried to make a point that maybe you needed more than three days?
 
@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos there are ways to boil a frog after all.
 
@AlexRobinson and yet allegedly there was feedback that some would
 
this does kinda loop nicely back to recent complaints about lack of transparency between SO and the community
 
4:00 PM
So I just checked SO today. Looks like I have some catching up to do
 
@SPArchaeologist-様 We don't discuss what happened in the TL
 
Mods chat room
 
When SE said they were done making changes on a Friday, I didn't think they'd pick Thursday instead
 
Teacher's Lounge
 
4:01 PM
noted, thank you
 
@SolveIt Indeed. It went totally contrary to established procedures and seemed more personal than anything.
 
I get the impression that Monica still hasn't been told specifically how she violated the current CoC? I'd love to be a fly on the walls of SE HQ right now.
 
@SolveIt most people who work there are remote....
so no point
 
@Stevoisiak Hence why so many of us are nit-picky. Lessons learnt.
 
@JourneymanGeek Can accept that, to be fair I just wanted to know if the moderators also feel they had little time to shape the text into form.
 
4:02 PM
@SPArchaeologist-様 I'd say MSE is a better barometer for that
 
I think the thing that hurts most about this situation is that both sides have reasonable arguments
 
that is what I wanted to hear, thanks for your reply, @JourneymanGeek
 
@SolveIt In any organization, if someone sufficiently powerful demands that you be expelled, it will happen regardless of the rules.
 
But the way those arguments have been twisted... well
 
one of the ironic things about all of this, is Monica was told off for using they/them to refer to people who's pronouns were unknown... when that is exactly what the new CoC tells you TO do
 
4:04 PM
let's not rehash that again ...
go over the transcript for the past 48 hours to find all of that discussion
 
So... what's the plan for weekends?
 
@MetaAndrewT. I try but not sure meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390316/…
 
I'm working nights ;p
 
i haven't been here for the past 48 hours, but i can imagine lol
 
@MetaAndrewT. probably losing my entire carefully built up safety rating in iRacing ...
 
4:06 PM
@MetaAndrewT. I'm going to be playing D&D with some friends
 
@MetaAndrewT. I have to clean the house as the cleaning lady will show up on monday ....
 
I recently beat Half Life 1 for the first time since 2012. Gonna go through the expansions next
 
does this chat room support any sort of formatting? like using asterisks for bold or anything akin to that?
 
@rene are you my mother?
 
@Shree acceptable, since I failed to find the duplicate on MSO
 
4:07 PM
Yes it does @AlexRobinson
 
@AlexRobinson if you're on desktop - check help on the bottom right
it uses a strange dialect of markdown
 
@SolveIt she won't be, and she won't be reinstated
 
@Bart whoa, interesting game, and what will you do!?
 
@Bart I may hope not ....
 
4:09 PM
@MetaAndrewT. thanks for guidance . I ware about meta vote so no problem :D
 
@AlexRobinson she wrote that
 
@Mgetz Do you know something? Or are you speculating (not that your predictions sound too implausible)?
 
i am confused as to what this means @202324
 
@Stevoisiak I tried anime-theme TRPG once with my close friends, and we failed the scenario spectacularly...
 
@SolveIt I know how american corporations work
 
4:10 PM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog gone
 
@rene I was confused for a moment, but I now get it...
 
@SolveIt SE says they have told her and have told her next steps.
 
@MetaAndrewT. I'm driving in 2 different classes. In one of them at the higher level there are a bunch of people less concerned with safety. Problem is that the game doesn't blame one driver, it just penalizes both involved in incidents :D So I have geen losing safety rating a lot lately.
 
@AlexRobinson wanting to have you rest assured that's not new information.
 
@MetaAndrewT. going slow ...
 
4:12 PM
@202324 which bit is or isn't new information??
 
@Bart lol, that's funny and sad at the same time XD
 
@AlexRobinson this is not new information. She already wrote that.
 
@MetaAndrewT. yeah, safety rating is directly linked to your license and determines what cars you can drive. So it gets a bit annoying if you're trying to stay safe and someone just barges into you. :D
 
@202324 yeah.... i was linking one of the previous points from i believe mgetz about the seemingly growing gap beterrn SE and community
 
@Rubiksmoose Monica disagrees that she was told specifically how she violated the current CoC as of about 15 hours ago (meta.stackexchange.com/a/334646/623375), have things changed since then?
 
4:15 PM
@SolveIt Nope, but she was told after that, that she had been told.
 
@SolveIt meta.stackexchange.com/a/334605/342212 related. is SE lying? who knows
 
... just read the transcript. Other than that, we don't know and no point in speculating...
 
i'm here for about 12 more minutes until i leave work. i'm not adding anything new - just sharing old points
 
I've been meaning to ask: What is the proper way to correct someone if you've been misgendered?
 
there is no "correct way" as its very context dependant
 
4:18 PM
I've had it happen over the phone where people call me "Madam"
And I never know how to react
 
it depends on a variety of things, like if its within friends i'd act vastly differently compared to someone who doesn't know me
if it is a stranger i phrase it kinda like an FYI - something along the lines of "its ok because you didn't know, but i acutally use X pronouns"
 
I've only ever experienced it with strangers over the phone. I can't imagine how it must feel from someone you know
 
it hurts thats for sure :)
 
woof
 
🐶
 
4:22 PM
@Stevoisiak say "I'm not madam, lol, I'm <this>"
 
telling someone they're wrong isn't helpful for anyone. its far better to say what they should use
 
that way you let them know you are not in fact madam, that you're <this> and that it's not a serious offense
 
@user1306322 One time, when I was with some friends ordering pizza, I responded "Actually, I'm a guy"
 
@djsmiley2k You're welcome.
 
@user1306322 knowing what someone isn't doesn't actually let them know what you are
 
4:24 PM
We still laugh about it sometimes
 
@AlexRobinson just edited that
 
ah i see
 
yay :)
 
@AlexRobinson That's odd. Monica doesn't like to use singular "they".
 
I can never shake the feeling that I'm the rude one for correcting someone
Even if I know it's not true
 
4:26 PM
i can't tell if you're making a joke or not; monica has expressed that she always uses singular they to refer to someone who's gender is unknown
 
@Stevoisiak are you by any chance an introvert? coz that might explain it
 
@Stevoisiak If you are dealing with me I feel it is less kind to let me remain in my error. Though I would still not call it rude.
 
well, cya'll around at some point maybe
 
@AlexRobinson "monica has expressed that she always uses singular they to refer to someone who's gender is unknown" - this is the exact opposite of her position
 
yea, citation needed, but then idk if it's appropriate to discuss this any further, since it's already been talked about in depth
just read transcripts and people's personal activity feeds
 
4:28 PM
@user1306322 I'm a bit of a mix of introvert or extrovert, depending on the situation
 
Her specific grammatical opposition is to "singular they"
 
@Stevoisiak that's an interesting way to put it, I think i'm like that also then
 
@MetaAndrewT. It's your suggestion.If you want to jump :D .
 
@Stevoisiak I always feel like I'm being rude hence I stay quiet more often than not
 
I don't think it's a good idea to speak for someone else here.
 
4:32 PM
@Stevoisiak yeah, InterPersonal Skills is a thing (hint hint) ;)
 
@MetaAndrewT. Oh hey, it looks like someone already posted this issue interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/23113/13
 
@MetaAndrewT. it was even more of a thing until some fool tweeted something.
 
I know, and I have moved on.
 
I assume I shouldn't ask
 
5:07 PM
I can't help but wonder what the reaction to this change would have been if the moderator controversy hadn't happened
 
Yeah, the community is sort of primed to be upset about it.
 
@Stevoisiak probably still upset, but less so
and particularly less hyperbolic
 
I think the new CoC is fine but I'm totally baffled by the sacking.
 
welcome to the crowd
 
I have failed to keep up with MSE discussion
they are posting faster then I can read
 
5:12 PM
@Magisch you're not missing anything
 
@TannerSwett I'm happy there are still people around that are separating the two. They are definitely separate issues and they really are quite independent of each other from the perspective of site management.
 
Right.
 
Yep, I don't really have any problem with the CoC, though I'm still questioning the mystery of Monica's case.
 
I agree with the spirit of the COC. Understanding and implementation is messy :/
 
Does Wikipedia have a policy on they vs he/she?
I've seen both used, sometimes in the same article
 
5:24 PM
(Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity)
 
@TannerSwett Thanks, I'll read that over
The article I'm looking at doesn't refer to a specific user
 
Apparently the manual of style used to, but no longer does, contain a more strongly pro-trans instruction: 'Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification.'
 
> ...when he/she could have just been unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and defines an editor by only a small group of edits that he/she made. Remember: Editors define but are not defined by their edits!
Would it be appropriate to edit those into a singular 'they'?
 
oh dear a new dumpster fire has broken out
 
Another one? What's the new one?
 
5:30 PM
@Mgetz I am. I care a great deal about this network. It's where a lot of my good friends are, and I've benefitted so much from it
 
I'm not linking to it, sorry
 
All right.
 
"dumpster fire" usually relates to Twitter, but I care less about it.
 
It still does ...
 
@MetaAndrewT. yes yes it does
 
user206222
5:38 PM
user image
2
 
@Aza probably the safest move a the moment.
 
I've completly lost track of MSE. I can't read even all posts, to say nothing of comments
too much, too fast, too heated
 
user206222
I'm skimming, but it really doesn't seem like much is new.
 
I thought Twitch chat moved fast, but MSE seems to rival it
 
user206222
Some people angry about Twitter? Whatever. Lead on, Sara. [shrug]
2
 
5:42 PM
me scrolling through MSE after being (mostly) away from the network for a couple of years
user image
3
 
@NullUserExceptionอ_อ It's all your fault! Why did you leave us?!?!
 
@TannerSwett Found the answer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
They is preferred to he/she
 
the movie is writing itself
wikipedia government system is like british government to me, I can't figure it out
I've been thinking maybe we could benefit from copying their example... but I've been reading and reading and it's not getting clearer to me
 
@user1306322 Users can't figure it out either. It's a sea of weird acronyms to me.
 
EN wikipedia is incredibly conservative compared to SE
 
5:51 PM
@Magisch Conservative how? Policy change speed, ideals, ?
 
userbase
if you want an example for that go to ANI or AN
 
Politically conservative or just not wanting to change stuff?
 
@Magisch which is??
 
Administrators Noticeboard / Incidents
Basically the policy-enforcement meta
@DavidA not wanting to change stuff and with the bureaucracy
 
Well they've had the same visual style for like 10 years.
 
5:53 PM
visual style can be customized with css themes
 
Wow. Someone actually joined using the name "StackBigot".
2
 
@DavidA don't quote me but I suspect a sockpuppet
 
@Mgetz no ... you think? :p
Perhaps it's StackBiGoth but they ran into a character limit when signing up?
 
That's it. I'm protesting against the latest retweet by not trusting a single word the company says and participating anyways.
 

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