Tavern on the Meta

3:01 PM

I took a very high elevator once, and the guide told us how we just lost some % of our weight, I don't remember what the number was, just that bit from the trip :p

Bart

Ugh, @GeorgeStocker overtook me (or is it undertook?) on the answer score. I shall do better one day ... :p

Mgetz

@Bart I just don't answer anymore it solved this problem

Bart

It's MSO. They can't do anything to me with their silly downvotes! ;)

rene

@user1306322 there is not. The problem the RO team faces is that we want to allow discussion to happen, also the difficult ones, where everyone feels invited, welcome and safe to participate.

We can't preemptively know when a line is crossed but as soon as someone seems to indicate this is the case the RO's have to judge, decide, coordinate and take action. That takes some time. We do try to explain what we thought was over the edge but that might happen only after we kicked users and cleaned up stuff. At the current speed of the transcript we sometimes seem sluggish to respond. I ask for your understanding.

John Dvorak

Aaaand, I'm almost out of votes on MSE again

Bart

3:07 PM

@JohnDvorak I'd suggest taking half your votes each day and investing them against a decent interest so over time you have a sufficient amount of votes.

Mgetz

Ah things that make my day:

twitter.com/random_walker/status/1182635589604171776

John Dvorak

@Bart I'm investing all of them. Are you suggesting me to vote less?

Mgetz

and one box still fails

rene

@Mgetz it is on hiatus

user1306322

@rene of course, very understandable.

Mgetz

3:12 PM

@rene did it go on strike too?

user1306322

twitter onebox broke? since when?

Mgetz

months ago I think

user1306322

really

Mgetz

too lazy to go find the bug report

Kevin B

how does something break in a system that's not being updated

user1306322

3:13 PM

maybe just here then? I thought I saw it working recently

rene

@Mgetz it got refactored to a non-working state

Mgetz

@KevinB because it is?

user1306322

@KevinB twitter's api got updated I think

Mgetz

@rene there is a term for that that I can't use here...

user1306322

it broke some of my addons that expand images to full size, had to update those

rene

3:14 PM

@Mgetz it is on .Net core 3.0 so it must be good

Mgetz

@rene See #6

rene

lol

Alex Robinson

lordy, the recent FAQ about pronouns is a complete trainwreck for all the wrong reasons

Bart

I wonder what a train wreck for all the right reasons would look like ...

2

John Dvorak

@Bart testing the safety equipment

Meta Andrew T.

3:19 PM

the star wall is going faster than on da super siikrit chat room!?

Alex Robinson

i could understand it being a trainwreck if the planned CoC changes were awful, but i'm getting a lot of low-key transphobic vibes about people not wanting to refer to people with the singular they/them

Bart

@JohnDvorak damn you and your flawless logic

user1306322

@Bart that spiderman scene comes to mind

Mgetz

Nuclear Flask Endurance Testing in USA

►

2

Bart

YEAH YEAH, I GET IT!

Alex Robinson

3:20 PM

nice trainwreck

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

for the right reasons :)

Meta Andrew T.

... if only SCP is real...

user1306322

ah I remember a vid where they were like "let's remove this much railroad" and the train wouldn't derail

until they removed like an entire cart's length of the rails

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson assume positive intent please. It's a complex subject made more complex by the fact that there are more non-native english speakers than native ones

Kevin B

assuming those who disagree are X is... well problematic at best

David A

3:23 PM

@KevinB the word "problematic" itself is problematic.

Alex Robinson

there are some legitimate concerns with language barriers that i acknowledge, but i STRONGLY feel a page about being inclusive with gender neutral language would do a lot more good than these CoC changes

on many SE's people will say "he/she" in an attempt to show their gender neutrality, but it isn't as inclusive as it should be

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson not disagreeing, also shifting the focus to tolerance rather than focusing solely on acceptance.

David A

By trying to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing nobody.

Alex Robinson

@Mgetz could you elaborate on what you mean by shifting focus to tolerance?

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson the current language seems to mandate acceptance, and seems to make it seem that anything other than 100% acceptance is well... not tolerated. However in side conversations that doesn't seem to be the intent. Trying to get people to accept everyone is a lost cause. But we do have to tolerate and at least be courteous to each other. That as far as I can tell is the intent

David A

3:29 PM

Forcing acceptance is way too far. To some people, it's basically forcing them to march in the pride parade.

Tolerance is much more achievable and useful.

Alex Robinson

@Mgetz, may i ask, do you use pronouns that don't allign with your assigned gender?

Mgetz

You can't, it's not a case of it even being possible. If you try to force it people will dig in

@AlexRobinson I'm going to decline to answer that question, on the basis it's none of your business

Alex Robinson

thats a vaild and fair answer

as someone who does not, seeing people who refuse to use them is invalidating and damaging to my mental health - something i'm not sure many people who don't, realise

David A

At some point, you have to play the numbers game and ask if it's worth annoying many thousands to please a small handful.

Alex Robinson

thats awfully cynical and pragmatic of you

David A

3:36 PM

Cynicism is the friend that has never let me down.

Shree

Where I am wrong and I got 3CV meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335160/… ?

If not agree , DV why close ?

Alex Robinson

spam posts are normally very self-evident and i honestly don't think its that important of an issue

Meta Andrew T.

@Shree AFAIK, it's an experiment only on SO.

djsmiley2k

Thanks whoever pointed me to the python chatroom, not only do I now have a working script, but I'm even putting it ON THE WEB xD

(This could never possibly go wrong).

Shree

@MetaAndrewT. Don't raise question against experiment ? :( . And it's closed.

Mgetz

3:47 PM

@AlexRobinson I'm not against respecting people's pronouns or even requiring courtesy. but when it's phased as it is, it comes off much harsher than intended. They aren't asking people to change who they are, they are asking people to be courteous in general.

Meta Andrew T.

@Shree ask on MSO please, not MSE...

Mgetz

I find it sad I even have to say "I'm not against" 😞

Alex Robinson

@Shree its site police to close meta questions that only apply to ONE se (in this case, stack overflow

@Mgetz i agree its phrased harshly, but the rules themselves are very solid

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson as an american and someone with trust in various other communities outside of SE. I'm going to disagree. They are worded in such a way that lawyerish trolls with exploit to target the very groups they are intended to protect.

Shree

@MetaAndrewT. I understand MSO vs MSE and feel same when go with smokey :(

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

3:50 PM

Keeping pronouns in greetings which would be otherwise be deleted is not solid. The rules are almost good and need some improvements.

David A

@Mgetz it always happens. The greatest harms are often done by those who mean well but don't think things through.

Alex Robinson

reminder that they aren't forcing anyone to use pronouns when they otherwise wouldn't

just that if you ARE to use pronouns to use the correct ones

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson That's actually unclear, answers from SE staff have been conflicting on the matter.

Alex Robinson

and even then, if not known just use singular they. is it really that hard

@Mgetz meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334900/… Question 6 my dude

and question 12

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson not everybody accepts that, which again causes issues hence the concerns. Moreover it's not natural to the vast majority of ESL users

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

3:52 PM

"is it really that hard" arguments do not help.

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson be careful about assuming gender please

Meta Andrew T.

@Shree not sure about Smokey, but we have been closing/migrating questions about SO Jobs & Developer Story on MSE to MSO because they're only applicable on SO. And also this particular experiment.

SolveIt

Dear lord, I will say that all this would have been a lot less painful had they not so fantastically botched Monica's firing.

Shree

@MetaAndrewT. Thanks I miss understood may I re-post or it's migrate ?

Alex Robinson

@Mgetz i apologise, what pronouns should i use?

Mgetz

3:55 PM

The intent of the requirement is to avoid users feeling singled-out, disrespected or invalidated. If someone's natural writing style always pertains equitably to everyone through typical discourse or isn't frequently interpreted as a clever means to avoid someone's stated pronouns, then, in theory, one might conclude that would work. In practice, it may simply not, and if we received multiple complaints of deliberately avoiding someone's pronouns, regardless of the intent, we'd need to take corrective action. — Cesar M ♦ 23 hours ago

@AlexRobinson in public I generally avoid pronouns in general

Meta Andrew T.

@Shree delete and repost is a quicker way. No need to wait for migration (that might not even come)

Alex Robinson

noted

Mgetz

The issue is the last part of that quote

2

> regardless of the intent

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

@SolveIt And had they not illegally retroactively changed the license. And had they not show bad adds. Even Monica's issue would have not sparked such reaction if a lot of people were not already fed up from previous instances.

Meta Andrew T.

@Shree or consider posting it as an answer on that meta announcement post

Alex Robinson

3:58 PM

people like to nit-pick hypotheticals. i disagree with the intent of that comment (like you?) but in general, i can't say i know anyone who would feel misgendered or invalidated by a lack of pronouns

Journeyman Geek

@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos people might not even have cared about the licence change if they weren't already fed up

its happened a few times with little drama

SPArchaeologist-様

Evening: a free question for the weekend. I see that many moderators here - people that based on my understanding should have access to the TL room an should have take part to the three days CoC "closed door review" are *still* uncertain about it, how it is worded an such. I have been silently watching the transcript and I saw little more being discussed today, with no general agreement.
Please do not misinterpreted this question, but I need to know. Did anyone tried to make a point that maybe you needed more than three days?

David A

@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos there are ways to boil a frog after all.

Mgetz

@AlexRobinson and yet allegedly there was feedback that some would

Alex Robinson

this does kinda loop nicely back to recent complaints about lack of transparency between SO and the community

Stevoisiak

4:00 PM

So I just checked SO today. Looks like I have some catching up to do

Journeyman Geek

@SPArchaeologist-様 We don't discuss what happened in the TL

Alex Robinson

TL?

M'vy

Mods chat room

Stevoisiak

When SE said they were done making changes on a Friday, I didn't think they'd pick Thursday instead

M'vy

Teacher's Lounge

Alex Robinson

4:01 PM

noted, thank you

David A

@SolveIt Indeed. It went totally contrary to established procedures and seemed more personal than anything.

SolveIt

I get the impression that Monica still hasn't been told specifically how she violated the current CoC? I'd love to be a fly on the walls of SE HQ right now.

Journeyman Geek

@SolveIt most people who work there are remote....

so no point

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

@Stevoisiak Hence why so many of us are nit-picky. Lessons learnt.

SPArchaeologist-様

@JourneymanGeek Can accept that, to be fair I just wanted to know if the moderators also feel they had little time to shape the text into form.

Journeyman Geek

4:02 PM

@SPArchaeologist-様 I'd say MSE is a better barometer for that

Stevoisiak

I think the thing that hurts most about this situation is that both sides have reasonable arguments

SPArchaeologist-様

that is what I wanted to hear, thanks for your reply, @JourneymanGeek

David A

@SolveIt In any organization, if someone sufficiently powerful demands that you be expelled, it will happen regardless of the rules.

Stevoisiak

But the way those arguments have been twisted... well

Alex Robinson

one of the ironic things about all of this, is Monica was told off for using they/them to refer to people who's pronouns were unknown... when that is exactly what the new CoC tells you TO do

rene

4:04 PM

let's not rehash that again ...

go over the transcript for the past 48 hours to find all of that discussion

Meta Andrew T.

So... what's the plan for weekends?

Shree

@MetaAndrewT. I try but not sure meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390316/…

Journeyman Geek

I'm working nights ;p

Alex Robinson

i haven't been here for the past 48 hours, but i can imagine lol

Bart

@MetaAndrewT. probably losing my entire carefully built up safety rating in iRacing ...

Stevoisiak

4:06 PM

@MetaAndrewT. I'm going to be playing D&D with some friends

rene

@MetaAndrewT. I have to clean the house as the cleaning lady will show up on monday ....

Stevoisiak

I recently beat Half Life 1 for the first time since 2012. Gonna go through the expansions next

Alex Robinson

does this chat room support any sort of formatting? like using asterisks for bold or anything akin to that?

Bart

@rene are you my mother?

Meta Andrew T.

@Shree acceptable, since I failed to find the duplicate on MSO

Bart

4:07 PM

Yes it does @AlexRobinson

Journeyman Geek

@AlexRobinson if you're on desktop - check help on the bottom right

it uses a strange dialect of markdown

Alex Robinson

nice

Mgetz

@SolveIt she won't be, and she won't be reinstated

Meta Andrew T.

@Bart whoa, interesting game, and what will you do!?

rene

@Bart I may hope not ....

Shree

4:09 PM

@MetaAndrewT. thanks for guidance . I ware about meta vote so no problem :D

202324

@AlexRobinson she wrote that

SolveIt

@Mgetz Do you know something? Or are you speculating (not that your predictions sound too implausible)?

Alex Robinson

i am confused as to what this means @202324

Meta Andrew T.

@Stevoisiak I tried anime-theme TRPG once with my close friends, and we failed the scenario spectacularly...

Mgetz

@SolveIt I know how american corporations work

JNat

4:10 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog gone

Meta Andrew T.

@rene I was confused for a moment, but I now get it...

Rubiksmoose

@SolveIt SE says they have told her and have told her next steps.

Bart

@MetaAndrewT. I'm driving in 2 different classes. In one of them at the higher level there are a bunch of people less concerned with safety. Problem is that the game doesn't blame one driver, it just penalizes both involved in incidents :D So I have geen losing safety rating a lot lately.

202324

@AlexRobinson wanting to have you rest assured that's not new information.

rene

@MetaAndrewT. going slow ...

Alex Robinson

4:12 PM

@202324 which bit is or isn't new information??

Meta Andrew T.

@Bart lol, that's funny and sad at the same time XD

202324

@AlexRobinson this is not new information. She already wrote that.

Bart

@MetaAndrewT. yeah, safety rating is directly linked to your license and determines what cars you can drive. So it gets a bit annoying if you're trying to stay safe and someone just barges into you. :D

Alex Robinson

@202324 yeah.... i was linking one of the previous points from i believe mgetz about the seemingly growing gap beterrn SE and community

SolveIt

@Rubiksmoose Monica disagrees that she was told specifically how she violated the current CoC as of about 15 hours ago (meta.stackexchange.com/a/334646/623375), have things changed since then?

Rubiksmoose

4:15 PM

@SolveIt Nope, but she was told after that, that she had been told.

Alex Robinson

@SolveIt meta.stackexchange.com/a/334605/342212 related. is SE lying? who knows

Meta Andrew T.

... just read the transcript. Other than that, we don't know and no point in speculating...

Alex Robinson

i'm here for about 12 more minutes until i leave work. i'm not adding anything new - just sharing old points

Stevoisiak

I've been meaning to ask: What is the proper way to correct someone if you've been misgendered?

Alex Robinson

there is no "correct way" as its very context dependant

Stevoisiak

4:18 PM

I've had it happen over the phone where people call me "Madam"

And I never know how to react

Alex Robinson

it depends on a variety of things, like if its within friends i'd act vastly differently compared to someone who doesn't know me

if it is a stranger i phrase it kinda like an FYI - something along the lines of "its ok because you didn't know, but i acutally use X pronouns"

Stevoisiak

I've only ever experienced it with strangers over the phone. I can't imagine how it must feel from someone you know

Alex Robinson

it hurts thats for sure :)

Benjamin

woof

Stevoisiak

🐶

user1306322

4:22 PM

@Stevoisiak say "I'm not madam, lol, I'm <this>"

Alex Robinson

telling someone they're wrong isn't helpful for anyone. its far better to say what they should use

user1306322

that way you let them know you are not in fact madam, that you're <this> and that it's not a serious offense

Stevoisiak

@user1306322 One time, when I was with some friends ordering pizza, I responded "Actually, I'm a guy"

PM 2Ring

@djsmiley2k You're welcome.

Alex Robinson

@user1306322 knowing what someone isn't doesn't actually let them know what you are

Stevoisiak

4:24 PM

We still laugh about it sometimes

user1306322

@AlexRobinson just edited that

Alex Robinson

ah i see

user1306322

yay :)

PM 2Ring

@AlexRobinson That's odd. Monica doesn't like to use singular "they".

Stevoisiak

I can never shake the feeling that I'm the rude one for correcting someone

Even if I know it's not true

Alex Robinson

4:26 PM

i can't tell if you're making a joke or not; monica has expressed that she always uses singular they to refer to someone who's gender is unknown

user1306322

@Stevoisiak are you by any chance an introvert? coz that might explain it

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

@Stevoisiak If you are dealing with me I feel it is less kind to let me remain in my error. Though I would still not call it rude.

Alex Robinson

well, cya'll around at some point maybe

Bryan Krause

@AlexRobinson "monica has expressed that she always uses singular they to refer to someone who's gender is unknown" - this is the exact opposite of her position

user1306322

yea, citation needed, but then idk if it's appropriate to discuss this any further, since it's already been talked about in depth

just read transcripts and people's personal activity feeds

Stevoisiak

4:28 PM

@user1306322 I'm a bit of a mix of introvert or extrovert, depending on the situation

Bryan Krause

Her specific grammatical opposition is to "singular they"

user1306322

@Stevoisiak that's an interesting way to put it, I think i'm like that also then

Shree

@MetaAndrewT. It's your suggestion.If you want to jump :D .

Mgetz

@Stevoisiak I always feel like I'm being rude hence I stay quiet more often than not

Stevoisiak

I don't think it's a good idea to speak for someone else here.

Meta Andrew T.

4:32 PM

@Stevoisiak yeah, InterPersonal Skills is a thing (hint hint) ;)

Stevoisiak

@MetaAndrewT. Oh hey, it looks like someone already posted this issue interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/23113/13

David A

@MetaAndrewT. it was even more of a thing until some fool tweeted something.

Meta Andrew T.

I know, and I have moved on.

Stevoisiak

I assume I shouldn't ask

Stevoisiak

5:07 PM

I can't help but wonder what the reaction to this change would have been if the moderator controversy hadn't happened

Tanner Swett

Yeah, the community is sort of primed to be upset about it.

Mgetz

@Stevoisiak probably still upset, but less so

and particularly less hyperbolic

Tanner Swett

I think the new CoC is fine but I'm totally baffled by the sacking.

Mgetz

welcome to the crowd

Magisch

I have failed to keep up with MSE discussion

they are posting faster then I can read

Mgetz

5:12 PM

@Magisch you're not missing anything

Rubiksmoose

@TannerSwett I'm happy there are still people around that are separating the two. They are definitely separate issues and they really are quite independent of each other from the perspective of site management.

Tanner Swett

Right.

Meta Andrew T.

Yep, I don't really have any problem with the CoC, though I'm still questioning the mystery of Monica's case.

Journeyman Geek

I agree with the spirit of the COC. Understanding and implementation is messy :/

Stevoisiak

Does Wikipedia have a policy on they vs he/she?

I've seen both used, sometimes in the same article

Tanner Swett

5:24 PM

Is this it? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Gender_identity

(Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity)

Stevoisiak

@TannerSwett Thanks, I'll read that over

The article I'm looking at doesn't refer to a specific user

On Don't call a spade a spade

Tanner Swett

Apparently the manual of style used to, but no longer does, contain a more strongly pro-trans instruction: 'Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification.'

Stevoisiak

> ...when he/she could have just been unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and defines an editor by only a small group of edits that he/she made. Remember: Editors define but are not defined by their edits!

Would it be appropriate to edit those into a singular 'they'?

Mgetz

oh dear a new dumpster fire has broken out

Tanner Swett

Another one? What's the new one?

Magisch

5:30 PM

@Mgetz I am. I care a great deal about this network. It's where a lot of my good friends are, and I've benefitted so much from it

Mgetz

I'm not linking to it, sorry

Tanner Swett

All right.

Meta Andrew T.

"dumpster fire" usually relates to Twitter, but I care less about it.

Bart

It still does ...

Mgetz

@MetaAndrewT. yes yes it does

user206222

5:38 PM

2

Mgetz

@Aza probably the safest move a the moment.

Magisch

I've completly lost track of MSE. I can't read even all posts, to say nothing of comments

too much, too fast, too heated

user206222

I'm skimming, but it really doesn't seem like much is new.

Bart

I thought Twitch chat moved fast, but MSE seems to rival it

user206222

Some people angry about Twitter? Whatever. Lead on, Sara. [shrug]

2

NullUserException อ_อ

5:42 PM

me scrolling through MSE after being (mostly) away from the network for a couple of years

3

Bart

@NullUserExceptionอ_อ It's all your fault! Why did you leave us?!?!

Stevoisiak

@TannerSwett Found the answer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

They is preferred to he/she

user1306322

the movie is writing itself

wikipedia government system is like british government to me, I can't figure it out

I've been thinking maybe we could benefit from copying their example... but I've been reading and reading and it's not getting clearer to me

David A

@user1306322 Users can't figure it out either. It's a sea of weird acronyms to me.

Magisch

EN wikipedia is incredibly conservative compared to SE

David A

5:51 PM

@Magisch Conservative how? Policy change speed, ideals, ?

Magisch

userbase

if you want an example for that go to ANI or AN

David A

Politically conservative or just not wanting to change stuff?

user1306322

@Magisch which is??

Magisch

Administrators Noticeboard / Incidents

Basically the policy-enforcement meta

@DavidA not wanting to change stuff and with the bureaucracy

David A

Well they've had the same visual style for like 10 years.

user1306322

5:53 PM

visual style can be customized with css themes

David A

Wow. Someone actually joined using the name "StackBigot".

2

Mgetz

@DavidA don't quote me but I suspect a sockpuppet

Bart

@Mgetz no ... you think? :p

Perhaps it's StackBiGoth but they ran into a character limit when signing up?

John Dvorak

That's it. I'm protesting against the latest retweet by not trusting a single word the company says and participating anyways.

Transcript for