Tavern on the Meta

Tinkeringbell

9:00 AM

@JourneymanGeek Heh. I think I've said it before... forgiveness to me is supposed to be unconditional

Magisch

I don't believe in unconditional forgiveness

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell What's happened has happened. We don't remember to hold a grudge. We remember to keep it from happening again.

Shadow Wizard

Conditional forgiveness is not forgiveness, it's negotiation. "I'll forgive you if you give me $100"

Journeyman Geek

That way, we don't need to forgive, we can work together ;)

Its the "remember the time you walked into a streetsign?"

I hold no ill will to the streetsign...

Magisch

All actions have consequences, some actions have consequences that can never be erased

everyone has done some things they'll never be forgiven for, it's just part of life

Journeyman Geek

9:02 AM

I however am a lot more careful than I was then ;)

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch What would 'something like this' be? I think the people involved here have learned their lesson by now. But new people may make the same mistakes, just because they weren't aware of those mistakes being made by others in the past. (If they didn't, no-one by now would ever burn their fingers picking up a too hot slice of pizza, for example). Even people that have made a mistake may make a similar mistake again in a moment of unawareness. Doesn't that warrant forgiveness then?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I think not forgiving hurts you more than others.

Magisch

eh

lingering on any given issue will, but that's not what forgiving is

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I've always thought of forgiveness as taking the power a previous hurt has over you.

Magisch

if at some point you threw me down a flight of stairs, you can make all the restitution you want and behave exemplary for the rest of the time I know you, you'll still be the person who kicked me down a flight of stairs

and should a similar situation come up again, that will be taken into account, in whatever way

Shadow Wizard

9:05 AM

@Tinkeringbell I do not think SE staff see what Adam did as mistake. Unless I missed some tweet/post/comment saying such a thing? On the contrary: Tim answer states that asking to change things on Twitter is totally legit and acceptable, and SE will do it ASAP if possible technically. (i.e. won't require developing new feature or code.)

2

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I've been that kid. Its the past. I've had people hurt me emotionally worse than SE ever could. I've let it go. I wouldn't get into the same situation again....

@ShadowWizard One of the things that I think we made very clear is something like this shouldn't ever happen again.

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek you might have let it go, but you'll never forget

and it will color all interactions you have with these people going forward

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch not cause I still hold a grudge

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek well... "we" made it clear. Have any SE staff member confirmed even considering this?

Journeyman Geek

Its not just cause I hurt, but so I won't hurt again

Magisch

9:08 AM

I'm not advocating holding a grudge

there's just no going back to before ever again

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard yeah, its kinda something that was talked about, and should be in the blog post

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek what blog??

confused

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard the one that should be coming soon.

Magisch

supposed to be one coming

Journeyman Geek

said news I mentioned!

Magisch

9:09 AM

probably as a blog to prevent it from getting downvoted to -150 on meta on day 1

Shadow Wizard

The only official reply from any SE staff is Tim's answer. Which just confirms that everything that happened was fine.

Magisch

(ok that was mean)

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch but potentially true

@ShadowWizard It wasn't fine.

Shadow Wizard

sigh... let me copy&paste...

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I can read it.

Shadow Wizard

9:10 AM

> So, use Twitter. Use email.

Tim saying clearly to use Twitter...

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard on the other hand, I think they should have realised using that to drive decisions is a mistake

Somewhat

> Use anything what you want

Shadow Wizard

and:

> and there was something we could immediately do

Magisch

Things happened the way they did this time because we positively had to do something about those titles being shown out of context they do explicitly validate the complaint too

Shadow Wizard

So combine those to get "Use twitter and if there is something we can immediately do, we will do it". QED

Magisch

9:12 AM

so even now, even on our own meta, they're not defending the network

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard also

> e need to keep how open and responsive and transparent we are as we transition into being a more mature company with structure. Until we do that, it won't matter where you go.

@Magisch so - in the middle ground? They might have done the right thing, the wrong way.

and a lot more went wrong.

The communications with the mods broke down. The community was left confused

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek I still did not see single SE staff say they did something wrong. And that's the whole problem. It's like a sinking ship where the captain doesn't even see it's sinking, or doesn't care when being told by the passengers.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard well, would you throw your people to the wolves?

I think there were multiple apologies on the IPS meta

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek from whom?

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek I was expecting a clear and direct repudiation of the original complaint, and the following actions by SE employees. Kind of what monica said in her blog too

Shadow Wizard

9:16 AM

@JourneymanGeek of course not, but that's what SE is doing for now.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I hope so too, eventually

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer, pattern-matching website in answer (159): Would the concentration of oxygen around fire increase as we get close to the fire (from the outside) by CarlR on chemistry.SE

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek Honest? If my employee did my customer base that dirty unprovoked, 5 minutes in the shame corner would be the least of their worries

but I'm not a ceo and that is probably one of the reasons why

Shadow Wizard

6

A: What caused this site to be excluded from Hot Network Questions?

I'll respond to this individually, but in a broad sense, we've been fixing issues with the hot network questions list with duct tape and regular expressions for years now. I just kicked off a discussion on MSE about why that's not working at scale, and why we need to revisit what we hope to get o...

No apology whatsoever as well, if that's what you meant? @Journeyman

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch If I was SE's CEO, that alone would not be what I'm looking at

@ShadowWizard ugh, I'm half certain Adam posted somewhere

Shadow Wizard

9:18 AM

> Nobody did anything wrong

Journeyman Geek

I don't really do IPS tbh

Shadow Wizard

This kind of proves my point. ^^

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard well I said that, slightly differently

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek sure, on Twitter.

Magisch

we're all not in the business of demanding that people be fired but

some admission of fault is due, imo

Journeyman Geek

9:19 AM

@Magisch so, I actually think there's a systematic issue with how SE's grown.

Magisch

adam has admitted his reaction was a mistake

Shadow Wizard

ohhh

@EmC For what it's worth, I think the actual question/answer content on IPS is generally respectful and well-curated. What I was going for was that I agreed that the question titles screenshotted in the quoted tweet weren't a good look for Stack Overflow. In hindsight, if I were to do this again, I'd do two things: 1. choose less absolute wording on Twitter; 2. wait before pushing the change through to allow for more upfront communication here. I apologize for doing neither of those things; I should've known better. — Adam Lear ♦ Oct 18 at 19:12

Journeyman Geek

They're kinda in the awkward teens.

Magisch

I must commend SE for not taking the easy way out and just firing both of them, because that's what large companies would do

Journeyman Geek

THey're kinda in between being that footloose and fancy free skater dude(tte), and "corporate" serious person

@Magisch I'd be unhappy with SE if it happened

Magisch

9:21 AM

me too

Journeyman Geek

I still think its a mistake to think its about this incident.

Magisch

it's one of the things I hate about large companies

Journeyman Geek

So, as mods?

We need to do a better job, where possible, sanity checking folks.

I'm not sure how its going to work - its probably something we'd need to have as part of our dialog with CMs.

(and I've made a few noises about stuff I'd love to see. I'm not optimistic many of them will happen, but cross fingers)

Shadow Wizard

Hmm... I just thought of something. @Catija you're now in a unique position. You are moderator of all sites in SE, but not working as a CM, officially. Can't decide if that's good or bad for you. What do you think? :)

Kind of "super mod" title.

Journeyman Geek

lol

Leave the poor lass alone. She needs to mod a new spawned process ;)

Shadow Wizard

9:25 AM

Well she joined the room. ;)

Magisch

"new spawned process"

@ShadowWizard I think that's a subfunction of being on mobile

Journeyman Geek

Ya but lets not talk shop offically XD

Magisch

it only periodically reconnects

shog had the same thing when he was still in here

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I reserve the right to geeky humour ;)

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch for me it happens when I open Chrome app, it reloads all the active tabs. Still, it means she's somewhere... around... :D

Tinkeringbell

9:26 AM

@ShadowWizard interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3330/…. So yeah, we're not getting a 'we're sorry for taking you out of HNQ', but we did get a lot of 'we're sorry for taking you out of HNQ the way we did'

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell well, only from the one who did it, not from the "boss upstairs", but yeah, better than nothing I guess. :)

Tinkeringbell

> and I regret that this happened so suddenly without communication immediately following,

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard which comes back to "throwing your folks to the mob"

I think the role of management here is to handle the "big picture"

Somewhat

If Adam were fired because of this, then I'd surely stop participating SE...

Journeyman Geek

"How we handle things going forward"

Tinkeringbell

9:30 AM

@Somewhat Heh. I'm sure no-one is going to get fired. Unless you mean someone is going to be forged in fire because of this ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat no real risk of that. But if folks keep talking about it in those terms, he might feel unwelcome and quit :/

@Tinkeringbell OOH MAKE A REBAR DOG!

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Well, stuff like this makes a mod grow up fast XD

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell or frozen with ice.... :P

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell pfft

you're a real mod now

You got your first bit of main meta hate.

Get 10k and I'll show you mine ;)

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Heh. I think that wasn't the first... do we count twitter? :P

And I'm not really sure if it counts. It was too easy :P

SmokeDetector

9:33 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in body (98): What is Salesforce Technology? by ajay. chinna on softwarerecs.SE

Journeyman Geek

Has to be meta

them's the rules ;)

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Oh. Yours didn't reach metasmoke? I win :P

@JourneymanGeek :D

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell there might not have been meta smoke then

Optimus Prime

I wish they could've stopped it earlier

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek That old huh... Some days I feel all grown up and then such a remark makes me feel like 'no, I'm definitely new here' :P

Journeyman Geek

9:35 AM

@Tinkeringbell I've been on SE 8 years, and been a mod about half of that

Shadow Wizard

@OptimusPrime stopped what? And why you try to unsubscribe from spam??? lol

Tinkeringbell

@OptimusPrime GDPR does help with that :) I only get interesting advertisements in my mailbox now.

Shadow Wizard

It just proves to them the email is valid so they mark the email as "verified/active", spam even more often, and sell it to other spammers. It's... trivial. taken from Spammers 101 book @Optimus

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell Same. I used my company paid training as DPO to put the fear of god into some advertising firms

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell doubt GDPR stop spammers...

Magisch

9:37 AM

@ShadowWizard It actually fairly reliably did for me

Journeyman Geek

ah @Tinkeringbell i.stack.imgur.com/eaXyq.png 2014?

Magisch

I rarely ever get spam these days and I used to get tons before

Journeyman Geek

I was a newbie mod ;)

Shadow Wizard

So much love!

:P

plz-delete member function meta.stackexchange.com/questions/317252/… @Bart @rene @Journeyman

You forgot "kaboom", @Journeyman. :D

Journeyman Geek

Yes I did ;)

Shadow Wizard

9:40 AM

Thanks anyway!

Optimus Prime

@ShadowWizard that's a verified site which run programming contests pay comparatively high amount to winners often. I, once signed up on the site and it contain AI related stuff. I'm not interested in it. Since then, they're sending mails of contests every now and then

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek No you didn't say the word! :D

Journeyman Geek

Forget that is.

Kaboom

I blame the speed of sound

Shadow Wizard

@OptimusPrime umm... it's still spammer like any other spammer. Spammer can be "verified site" as well.

I bet they sell their emails list to other spammers to get some money as well.

Optimus Prime

@Tinkeringbell I'm not sure how GDPR help in India

Magisch

9:42 AM

@JourneymanGeek lol @ the comment the user left on your answer

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Heh. That's an easy way to reach 10k :P

Magisch

basically admitting to serial voting

Tinkeringbell

@OptimusPrime Me neither. Just an attempt to make you jealous :P

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell actually no

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek (I mean, for me :P)

Journeyman Geek

9:43 AM

other than that that spurred me to hit 10k

ah lol

Tinkeringbell

I don't need to reach 10k, people will send me screenshot anyways :P

Journeyman Geek

true ;p

(also, the fact that I'm not a newbie mod is scary ;p)

especially when someone asks you what to do on their own site.

Tinkeringbell

Why? You don't scare me easily :)

Journeyman Geek

(or worse, a non mod asks you about something on another site, and you need to work out their intent)

@Tinkeringbell I mean for me ;p

Tinkeringbell

Ohhh. like that. Just say 'go ask your own mod' :P

Magisch

9:45 AM

there is no heaven, only lavender town

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell or let the mod know.

I've stuck my head in the hinduism meta a few times cause someone asked

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell Go Ask Alice! ;)

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard Alice ignores me

Shadow Wizard

lol

What about Bob?

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I talk to Bob all the time

Derpy

9:48 AM

@ShadowWizard to be hones, that answer still fell MU to me. Aka, to use a more well-known term... NAA

And... morning.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard Hmmm. I'm having trouble with uncle bob too. Question isn't really ready yet though.

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek good!

Derpy

Never has catching up been so heavy.

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy did you flag?

@Tinkeringbell huh. Hope it will get better soon and Bob will treat you nicely! ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell well, if there's a new mod, you mentor them - sometimes you're the interface to the other mods and meta (me!), you're looking out for your community and sometimes others.

Shadow Wizard

9:50 AM

@Derpy sure it was, you just don't remember. :)

Human mind has a way to forget bad things.

Journeyman Geek

In some cases you're also trying to figure out how to handle something outside your little site-bubble

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Oh sure, I really appreciate talking to most of you, and y'all helping out on meta/chat :)

Derpy

again are we here, again discussing "empty" answers. I don't know what I can add that hasn't been said before, but since even @ShadowWizard today seems to be pretty badly hurt... so I think I will say this once more. Forgive me.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell and sometimes you go "Am I giving the right advice?" ;p

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Hey, I have uninformed opinions on lots of stuff XD

Magisch

9:51 AM

@Derpy I'm sure non of the RO's will ever censor discussion on this here, no matter how tiring it gets

Tinkeringbell

And I think modding is a lot of 'go with your gut feeling' anyways.

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I think we're in the middle of it ;)

@Tinkeringbell and there's no one right way

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell --> all mods immediately head to the bathroom

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Heh. Just get rid of the crap and you feel much better? :) That does sound like modding, yes :P

Journeyman Geek

(heck, that's one of the pain points here XD)

Somewhat

9:53 AM

I'm just tired reading the constructive rant about this incident almost every day on here, because it's a fact that it doesn't make the situation better ._.

Journeyman Geek

@Somewhat I guess its an attempt at cathartis

Tinkeringbell

@Somewhat Okay. We can talk about my lunch after I ate it ;) Brb! :D

Journeyman Geek

until we get word.

Magisch

I guess buckle up because this is rant on the meta now

Idk it's tiring yeah hopefully it'll reduce itself in frequency after the blog post

Journeyman Geek

And that's one way to deal with frustration. Else I'd be what, complaining about the lack of success in matchmaking? ;p

Derpy

9:55 AM

I don't care if a feature requests was ignored until someone tweeted the same. I don't care if meta is ignored, closed or whatever. I don't care if this is the nth time we are ignored and a random tweet post saying the same things we did is immediately acted on. I don't care if SE has to avoid talking because the resources are few. There is only one thing I care now. Monica already said it, I will say it again.

> I want those employee tweets to be taken down and disavowed. Yeah, this many days later that won’t make a big difference, but it’s literally the least you can do to start fixing this, so at least do that.

Magisch

I predict this not happening

Derpy

oh, don't worry, I predict it too and without using a crystal ball either.

Somewhat

yeah, and I want to flag my own answer on "which sites are excluded from HNQ" requesting to clean-up the comment thread, but I guess it won't happen too.

Magisch

I kind of want the one OT answer there to be moved to the other post so the question can serve as the FAQ-type thing I wanted it to be

Somewhat

couldn't agree more.

Mithrandir

9:58 AM

It's been stating that SE as a company will not be policing what their employees do with their private Twitter accounts; it's none of their business.

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy Well, I'd be happy with "this never happening again cause there's checks in place" personally

JNat

@ShadowWizard all gone

Derpy

@Mithrandir Weird is then that they are fine with someone using a "private Twitter account" to make promises about the company taking actions and at the same time threatening company given punishment to some network users

Shadow Wizard

@JNat thanks!

status-eating-remaining-hot-hot-dogs-from-yesterday

@JourneymanGeek that's... not going to happen.

Derpy

【Radix】Undertale-Megalovania Lyrical Adaptation

►

Journeyman Geek

10:10 AM

@ShadowWizard that is literally what this should be about

The damage is literally done. We can patch the damage but it's also essential to address why this keeps happening

Shadow Wizard

@Mithrandir it is when the employees make changes on SE sites.

(As result of their private twitter accounts)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard that's something that should be addressed as I understand

Shadow Wizard

and as I keep saying.... "should" vs. "reality"

Tim's answer is huge step in the opposite direction of what they should be doing.

Journeyman Geek

I mean, it's something that is in SE's radar

Shadow Wizard

He essentially throw away any possible responsibility for any future events with "OK, the system is crappy, nothing we can do about it. All is fine". No?

Journeyman Geek

10:18 AM

@ShadowWizard well that's in the software development side - and well...

Meta hadn't scaled well there

Shadow Wizard

The distance between what's written so far by staff and the "this never happening again cause there's checks in place" is more than the distance between Earth and the Sun... it's infinite.

Journeyman Geek

Meh

I really would wait a little bit for the official response

Somewhat

Yeah, let's DM-spam Joel's Twitter /s

Journeyman Geek

(ie. There's nothing convincing I can say for now)

Shadow Wizard

But all in all... @Derpy what you're sorry about??? You did nothing wrong. Nobody here did. Well, nobody who talk at least. And I'm fine, I'm used to get hurt and Tim's answer just confirmed what I already knew. All good. :)

If any future blog post will take a different direction, guess Tim's Answer better be edited to only link to it in order to prevent conflict and confusion of users.

@JourneymanGeek you keep saying that, but Tim Post is the big boss of the CM team. His answer can't be more official. So I'm really confused.

And his answer is more than "Meta doesn't work".

Journeyman Geek

10:23 AM

@ShadowWizard well, as a bug / fr management system?

It kinda wasn't really ever meant as one

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek it won't be, Tim clearly said they'll use something else in the future.

oh

@JourneymanGeek sure it was meant, back in the Old Days.

I do agree it's not ideal, but it worked. It helped fix thousands of bugs.

Journeyman Geek

Now what would personally concern me is the ol 'we need to fix this. Be patient....'

@ShadowWizard Jeff thought it was a terrible idea

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek so why did he create meta to begin with?

Somewhat

to discuss policy?

Shadow Wizard

He could just leave the contact us form to report bugs and ask for new features.

Andras Deak

10:27 AM

Jeff was gone by the time I started here but my impression is that he meant the community-centric stuff, it wasn't just empty rhetoric

Somewhat

public bug & FR tracker is needed, but probably not meta

that's the main point

Shadow Wizard

@Somewhat they have something internal, pretty sure of that.

user194636

unfortunate tag list

Shadow Wizard

?

What site?

user194636

10:30 AM

meta.se

Shadow Wizard

oh, weekly/monthly rep

Somewhat

yes, I remember they have Trello, but I see the disconnect between Meta and their internal tracker

Andras Deak

hehe

Does the internal one have a twitter API?

user194636

I just clicked on the Users tab on my way to searching for anything Tim had posted recently

Andras Deak

Push issues using emojis

Journeyman Geek

10:35 AM

@ShadowWizard cause the community asked for it

he used to have a uservoice

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek on twitter? ;)

Journeyman Geek

blog.codinghorror.com/meta-is-murder

Meta is Murder: at some level, meta-discussion cuts into time you could be using to, y'know, BUILD STUFF and SOLVE PROBLEMS.

Tweeted by codinghorror on June 29, 2009 at 10:27 AM

C’Mon Get Meta!

Jeff Atwood on June 28, 2009

What’s the first rule of Stack Overflow Club?

We have this policy not because we are jerks (or at least, not just because we are jerks) but because we believe meta-discussion kind of gets in the way. As the faq explains:

Also, try to refrain from asking questions about Stack Overflow itself unless you absolutely, positively have to. Most programmers don’t come here to learn about the intricacies of Stack Overflow; they come here to get answers to their programming questions. Let’s try to help them out by not cluttering up the system with navelgazing meta-discussion. If you want to suggest a feature or discuss how Stack Overflow works, visit our UserVoice site. …

Andras Deak

Jeff who?

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak Get off my lawn please ;)

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek The damage has not been patched though

Journeyman Geek

10:40 AM

@Magisch no, not yet

Magisch

a blog post wont patch it either

Journeyman Geek

So, I grew up around engineers.

Sometimes when something breaks, the temptation is to patch what's broken, and forget about it.

Shadow Wizard

@AndrasDeak not Bezos

Magisch

it could be the most amazing and heartfelt blog post of all time but it would be so much as empty noise on its own

Andras Deak

No patching was done. Someone stuck their finger in the wound

Journeyman Geek

10:40 AM

Eventually, you end up with something like my zombie drier

Andras Deak

@Magisch I disagree

Journeyman Geek

Or you can realise that stuff's broken. Spend a little time trying to work out the best way to fix it...

But at this point, its going to be a process rather than a single event

Magisch

@AndrasDeak eh. I think monica is right. Taking down and publicly repudiating the tweets is the least they can do to start fixing things

until that happens, everything else is a non starter

Andras Deak

Yeah, but publicly admitting the screwup is more than halfway there

Magisch

It's still short of the least they can do

Derpy

10:43 AM

@ShadowWizard to annoy everyone with the same words that have been said a thousand times already. And yet, even when I realize that, they find their way to the keyboard either way.

Andras Deak

The problem is they won't even do that because no mistakes were made

@Magisch if you work with the assumption that they also have to pacify the offendeders there's not much they can do. A heartfelt apology is one of the things they can

Promising to do better next time is another

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy smart words! But they don't annoy everyone, at least not me. :)

Magisch

@AndrasDeak I don't work with that assumption. I work with the assumption that to start mending community relations they need to repudiate and make it known that the offenders have no standing

Andras Deak

Same here ^^

@Magisch community relations is second (if anything) to public appearance $$$

That's a fact, and Tim finally admitted that at least

Somewhat

Has Nick Larsen apologize?

Shadow Wizard

10:48 AM

Nick who?

Andras Deak

Who's that?

Somewhat

this Nick

doppelgreener

This Video Will Make You Angry

►

Andras Deak

@Somewhat why should he apologize for being wrong?

that's, like, just his opinion, man

Magisch

That's him not really speaking in any official capacity though

SmokeDetector

10:51 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, username similar to website in answer (111): VIdeo Converters for Ubuntu by youtube2video on askubuntu.com

Andras Deak

Nobody expects apologies for views stated on meta, no matter how unpopular. We demand apologies for actions, actions which embody a huge dump taken on various communities

Tinkeringbell

Demanding people delete tweets isn't going to fix the problem. They've been up, they've been read, they've been screenshotted... And why demand only one or two perons take down their parts of the thread? I've seen more SE people engage there, and as far as I'm aware every single person that got involved had good intentions.

Honestly, this is a bit scary.

I woke up on Wednesday having no clue what to do

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak I don't think that's particularly true

Tinkeringbell

If I'd had picked the wrong thing to do, would y'all be so nasty to me too?

Andras Deak

that's a fact^[as I see it] and Tim finally admitted that at least^[as I read it]

@Tinkeringbell would you have apologized?

Journeyman Geek

10:53 AM

@Tinkeringbell and that's the real problem everyone seems to miss

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell It's symbolic

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak so, here's the thing. There's people on the spot making the decision.

Andras Deak

yes

Shadow Wizard

@Somewhat why apologize?? Totally legit opinion, obviously his own personal opinion that does not and can't affect SE policy. If he was CEO or management, then we'll all have been in big problem. I did downvote of course, but that's not the point.

Journeyman Geek

With the appropriate person, process and support, this might not have happened

Magisch

10:54 AM

The most public form of "I screwed up, it was wrong to do that and I will endeavour not to do it again"

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek indeed

Journeyman Geek

I can't second guess why adam did what he did.

A lot of things didn't go well, and that's something we can learn from.

Tinkeringbell

@AndrasDeak Yes. But I e.g. wouldn't have purged the entire chat transcript?

Andras Deak

@Tinkeringbell yeah, that's fine

Shadow Wizard

Andras Deak

10:55 AM

I understand Magisch's point about it being a gesture, but I don't agree with it

public record is a useful thing

Journeyman Geek

And as mods, we're probably going to want to work with the company to try to rebuild those bridges. That's on them to an extent, but its also on us.

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek You might notice that I never said "they should go back in time and decide differently". People make mistakes. That's how it is. And when people make mistakes, they should own up to it. Fight cognitive dissonance and accept that they've done wrong (if they have), and rely on their backbone to admit it and apologize

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell depends what wrong thing. Can't have one answer.

Journeyman Geek

Thr frustrating thing is that people keep making it about the tweeter or the folks who reacted - when its really a more fundamental failing in our relationship with SE

Andras Deak

To err is human but to admit it and try and do something about it takes a great person

Shadow Wizard

10:56 AM

Buddha? ^

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell chat transcript is a different form of public record then twitter

Andras Deak

@ShadowWizard I wish

Magisch

also, if you had gone around actually insulting people I would have flagged your messages for deletion, as we do with these

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak but what I want to see, and someone else wants to see is different

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek I don't know what you mean by that, but that's probably true for anything involving more than one human

Somewhat

10:57 AM

I guess I'm just pissed off being on this room.

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek way I see it, this time, it's 100% on them

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch "this time"

Shadow Wizard

@Somewhat come back in 6-8 days, surely things will calm down by then. ;)

Journeyman Geek

ah, but I don't think its about this time.

Magisch

they're now in the position of needing to convince the users to trust them again

Mithrandir

10:58 AM

@AndrasDeak Who is actually human here, though...?

Tinkeringbell

@Somewhat I'm sorry. I guess I still have a lot of things to work through for myself in this aftermath, and talking about it with people here does help a little :)

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch trust lost over a period of time.

So, hindsight is 20/20.

Maybe we could have gone "hey, y'all seem a lot more distant"

Magisch

the tavern of misery

Journeyman Geek

or "Hey, some of these things seem... at odd at what we hear from the community"

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