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12:25 AM
@Somewhat Sounds like you got a faulty impressions. I'm not a troll.
I am an ALLSTAR learner guy and an ideal teacher. I just oppose the network for its endless attempts to subjugate everyone to the same venture capitalists that own Facebook.
As if it wasn't enough for them to buy all the stupid reality TV Facebook and Instagram people. Now they want to own a Yahoo Answers knock off.
(also, man not having a dark theme sucks. Well, for transcript anyway.... I have porkchat for this. My eyes are still a bit screwy from yesterdays double fun case of allergies)
@ShadowWizard gee. Thanks :)
(and lol. Replying to everything I want to reply to there is going to require epic level pinging)
@TimPost I don't think its possible to go back to those days. Much smaller team for one and much smaller community. But its possible to have a functioning feedback loop, especially for stuff that affects communities. If you're going to look back, consider that you guys had CMs embedded in communities, and literally the first thing a community in crisis needs is a familiar, reassuring face that can sooth things over.
In a sense, this isn't an engineering problem. It isn't really about the software lifecycle (Well, I suppose parts of it can be, but its been years since I've looked at SDLC, and whatever I learnt at school dosen't apply to SE ;p ). Its a bit of a social/public-community relations problem.
@TravisJ I think the problem there is it pushes everything down to the community management team.
We actually manage to solve many things there ourselves - In a sense, ideally mods would be the interface between the community and the community team, who in turn would be the interface with the company
and if we need knowledge rather than firepower, there's actually really good, formal and informal ways this happens
I would strongly oppose losing my site meta
1:51 AM
And now that things have quietened down...
Also shower thought.
If getting an answer to your questions is its own reward, and we're trying to build an artifact of knowledge not questions, why not remove reputation change from questions?
Well... reputation isn't necessarily a reward, but rather, how much you're trusted to use the network
In an ideal world
What would removing the reputation change from questions achieve?
@Rob it changes the dynamic - it shifts a lot more trust and power to folks who're posting answers.
(it also, coincidentally makes a question ban a lot easier since you can't grind and luck your way to a decent amount of rep)
(granted you can sometimes grind your way to a lot of rep through answers of dubiousish quality...)
1:58 AM
I do agree that some people got 'grandfathered' in and keep posting bad questions. But if we take a new user today... if they're gaining non-negligible amounts of reputation for asking questions, then I'd argue they're just as valuable to the community as the answerers.
@Rob but if you're here to ask questions, you're only here when you have problems.
you arn't fully engaged
That doesn't matter, though. Assuming the votes properly correlate with the quality/usefulness of the questions, then their contributions are welcome
We wouldn't have the great answers they received without the question being asked
hm. ya
(I can't argue that ;p)
Admittedly, though, that's assuming that the votes do correlate with quality, and they didn't get lucky with a single question
I've had that happen with an answer quite frankly
2:02 AM
And related to that; I think question bans need a bit of work. At least, allow moderators to see a bit of information, or to somehow influence it one way or the other
I had a one liner on a sock that... apparently HNQed
Too often I see people who asked offtopic, but not bad questions, being banned. There's literally nothing they can do except wait 6 months to ask another question. Then people dump rubbish on the site, and will never hit the ban
I'd like a manual Qban mechanism for some cases
i only got a few k rep from the one answer i had that got shared to reddit
I have a 5kish user who posts crap questions ;p
and gave us a bit of grief over us closing his latest one. Despite him being suspended for it before
the irony is the next suspension would have been a year, and that felt a bit excessive. I was hoping to get through first.
that's responsible for most of my alt account's rep
and what you see is the revision I did after it got insane amounts of upvotes
2:07 AM
A: Revisiting the "Hot Network Questions" feature, what are our shared goals for having it?

Monica CellioWe already know that Stack Overflow is different. Let's act on that. Stack Overflow is the flagship site, the one that gets the vast majority of the Google hits and activity. It's designed for that. Its stated purpose is to be a place for expert programmers to get in, get answers to their que...

it's at +3128 atm
2 hours later…
4:03 AM
4:29 AM
(not so) morning...
Yes morning ;)
had to catch up everything, including clarification on penalized sites on HNQ...
So... Is it over at last?
woke up with 3 comments from gnat :)
I noticed that @Sonic is aware of his mistake...
@Mari-LouA Huh, I learned that "get attention for [x]" is a valid phrasing where I was taught. Maybe it's only valid in American English. Anyhow, you should generally keep in mind that some post authors (notably one who frequently messes up "its" vs "it's") often intentionally violate grammar rules in order to imply something, and when another user edits out the grammar flaw, they change it back. Please keep that in mind the next time you edit someone's post for grammar and it gets rolled back. — Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog 2 days ago
@Journeyman ^
Hopefully it means no more such edits...
4:32 AM
@ShadowWizard I doooouubbbtttt. But we will see?
> often intentionally violate grammar rules in order to imply something,
Well... that is how he see it.
Also I write 'naturally' as I think, My spelling is bad but I don't think anyone can really accuse me of generally bad grammar
@JourneymanGeek huh! Tell him in comment. ;)
4:33 AM
What's the point?
Make him feel bad?
... that's a terrible point
Now, there's folks I might not get along with
but when push comes to shove, I don't want to be the person whose goal is to hurt someone for that.
You are too good. :P
My issues here are entirely with "I need my voice to sound like me for most impact"
So here? The roll back was quite literally cause a fellow user felt ... it didn't sound like me
which was a valid, though unusual point
and I've told folks it/it's fixen are fine
as are spelling fixen
and lots of users do an awesome job at respecting my voice
5:07 AM
Agreed ^
5:33 AM
@Magisch twitter.com/kroati1/status/1055683547825168384 didn't you mention a co-worker used recursion instead of loops?
We have some legacy software in use where "GoTo" "On Error GoTo" and "On Error Resume next" were used as normal case handling
basically using runtime errors to not have to use if statements and loops
That is... Ugh... screams
@Magisch Did that ever make it out of VB6?
ms access 2003
so early vba ish
Never really did anything with VBA. I do remember VB6 though, first language I programmed with... Nearly 20 years ago now. "On Error Resume next" was a magic command for me back in the day.. it fixed everything ;)
6:02 AM
i did a contract for a company that still used vb6
i redid their entire program in windows forms
but then the boss couldnt program in anything except vb6, so they scraped it and went back to vb6
@Rob Until you're so deep in throwing nested suppressed runtime errors that access just randomly dies from time to time
and if you try to debug it the debugger dies
@Magisch I'm very grateful my only experience with VB6 was 'for fun', and not part of my schooling or professional life :). That said, though, I did build some pretty cool things with it, considering
6:19 AM
I started with... Pascal? Though I've read BASIC book without any access to tools for BASIC...
6:48 AM
One of the bestsellers at the time?
nah, just a small BASIC book in my local language...
I don't even know if it's bestseller or not, I was too small to know (7 y.o.?)
I wished I was as nerd as my younger self... nowadays, I feel disconnected with most of the programming techs...
I think I started around 12
You could pick up code golfing...
It's great for nerd cred
good idea :)
7:08 AM
@Oded hehe, of course. :D
You work as freelancer then? Or company?
Sounds nice.
Also.... how did you see that message?! lol
7:23 AM
@ShadowWizard it's the 6th (now 7th) recent message when you searched for 'Oded'...
... not yet! (the caching is real)
7:35 AM
So you think Oded search for his name being mentioned?
Or maybe his spidey Odey sense tingling...
8:02 AM
A biologically accurate spider-sense would be a regular ear placed on Spidey's wrist.
(without earlobes)
@Shog9 Out of curiosity, what do you typically save in the US from duty-free alcohol in the US? Here, we have ridiculous taxes on alcohol (700ml of Jim Bean is around AUD 45), but I would have imagined the difference in the U.S... and most other places would be almost negligible.
@JohnDvorak ew
8:26 AM
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/49792481/how-to-compute-a-canonical-email I was going to respond with something but I don't know if it should be a comment or an (incomplete) answer.

Something like for gmail alone.
1 Convert all chars to a single case (traditionally lower case)
2 Remove all dot . chars.
3 if there is a plus in the user part of the email address strip the plus and any remaning chars in user.
The problem is that most common assumptions about email addresses are wrong
8:47 AM
..... so, a coworker just told me Switch cartridges have a denatonium coating.
so that if you a kid would try to ingest them...
the taste should make them spit the cartridge out.
Obviously, this ended up with me saying something like "next thing we know, there will be switch cartridge taste challenges video on youtube".
After a short pause of silence and "come on, this can't be a thing, this must not be a thing...."
we checked.
And yep.
those challenges already are a thing.
9:01 AM
@Derpy Yes they are. I've heard of it.
It's actually much better than some of the actually dangerous challenges that stupid people do.
Like... swallowing cinnamon. >.<
How is that dangerous?
Easy to suffocate
Unless you try to eat a whole quill
9:14 AM
I once took a too large spoonful of nesquik and inhaled a bit; I thought I was going to die
You start coughing which pulls down more
And cinnamon irritates mucous membranes
At least I was stupid of my own accord
@JourneymanGeek eat @Quill? That is terrible! :D
(I was eating. Inhaling was an accident :P)
@ShadowWizard iirc a stick of cinnamon is called a quill
It's actually rolled up tree bark
isn't it also a term for porcupine quill? edit: yes it is
9:39 AM
cute & scary?
thats not scary
just cute
@AndrasDeak So long as you didn't do eyeballing.
@Mithrandir trust me, that is still far better than what some of the worse offenders do.
Recently there was a big scandal involving a youtuber that died while trying to film a video of himself getting shot in the chest by his girlfriend, and trying to stop the bullet with a big book.
BTW, the "gun" was nothing less than a desert eagle. I am not a fan of guns, but based on the comments the story got, that is basically the hand fitting version of a small cannon....
9:59 AM
Is it inappropriate to reference the Darwin awards?
@Derpy that's not very inaccurate
That said
what they did was insanely stupid no matter the calibre
you're too slow, Smokey...
10:18 AM
@JourneymanGeek I should add that they tested the idea on another book before.
The book was torn apart. They then decided to do the next test with a bigger book. And the youtuber behind it.
Sorry to say that, but I don't know what they were thinking
If the first test failed horribly.... why you do a second one on a living human?
@Magisch wait until it has grown-up ...
I'm in Kinder Garten here ...
10:52 AM
Are you guys developers? I'm wondering why I seem to hate writing documents so much is that normal? I can explain things when asked but asking me write that down well its just confusing. I freeze up and start trying to find other tasks or things to do (like visit this room)
it's a thankless but very important part of development
@Wes I'm not
Documentation is hard until you need it
I just find it wierd that I can write things down in response to a question like IM
But not when I have a deadline.
@Wes I don't like writing documentation but begrudgingly recognize its importance
@Wes see, if you're writing it to a deadline, you're doing it wrong
documentation should be part of the process
@Wes so I'm working on a hobby project now.
i.sstatic.net/8ycfW.png is literally next to me
I document as a I go
11:10 AM
documentation is only important if anybody else will ever use/maintain your code, and "anybody else" includes "you 6 months from now"
@JourneymanGeek nice!
@ShadowWizard lol
@AndrasDeak so true...
@AndrasDeak especially future you
@ShadowWizard its... a work in progress
I did finally get to something minimally functional
but that's my process
test, document, retest, break, document... ;p
@ShadowWizard annoyingly my current server setup is undocumented
other than a few critical bits ;p
journeymangeek.com/?p=46 is kinda what I used to do though, and same workflow
Our company has "technical writer" for documentation... yes, programmers want to write code, not documentation :(
11:19 AM
@Somewhat the problem there is only you know what you're thinking
and you will forget
@AndrasDeak Its pre dev documentation
Like risks, assumptions, knowning technical debt.
I don't know what that is, I'm not a dev and I don't write documentation :P
that sounds like project manager stuff
maybe replied to worng comment.
Yeah except I'm not a PM
I hate this.
Well, our (programmers) job description doesn't include that...
sorry its a rant.
11:21 AM
@Wes I figured...
haha, having a PM...
What happened to the old way of aggregating technical debt along the way?
No i mean we are going to do X
@JourneymanGeek well you can blame only yourself... No? ;)
and we know its technical debt
but if we don't then...
11:22 AM
@ShadowWizard I know, it should be ;p
@ShadowWizard that is correct
@AndrasDeak "I don't care just make this work"
actually there's only one part that trips me up - setting up a https enabled domain
but that's something I don't do often, and it really ought to be documented ;p
its easier than it was.
I think now.
@Wes its all about moving parts
prior to SNI.
11:25 AM
since I need to set up a http enabled virtual host, get letsencrypt's script to run its magic, move and test
@Wes and lestencrypt
ah thats probably more difficult than buying a cert.
I SHOULD be able to simplify it with wildcard certs I guess but I'll need to rebuild my whole setup
Never bothered.
I wanted to document the process of adding SSL to node.js site with dynamic firewall... But... Umm.. Forgot. Now I don't have a clue how to do it again if needed. :-(
@Wes well that's new
but I wouldn't need to generate new certs per subdomain
11:26 AM
Mostly I think because the nature of my work means purchasing certs.
Had to generate some key file... Send it to the firewall company...
and I only use those domains on my webserver
@ShadowWizard which is why documenting in place is clever
I actually dislike that fact that https everywhere is now deemed necessary
@Wes why?
I guess its the idea that everything needs to be sensitive.
11:28 AM
@Wes - if it has a password...
it does
FWIW, @JonEricson, I never felt like y'all did a bad job of communicating or responding to feedback with Documentation. In fact, I felt like you in particular did a pretty good job of engaging with the Meta community. IMO Documentation failed because there was never a coherent design vision for it that made sense.
thats a big if for lots of smaller things though.
Like if we publish public documentation.
and the 'cost' of it, in terms of money, time and processing power is marginal
Internal build process -> generate html files -> publish on a webserver.
why should people need to have https on that.
11:29 AM
@Wes is it really internal only?
Sites like this one. Nothing to do with me. activemq.apache.org
thats stuff shouldn't need a cert.
No cert there ;p
Given a broad vision for how a product is meant to work that is coherent and resonates with people, you can throw together something horribly flawed and iteratively make it better through responding to complaints from the peanut gallery. That could never work for Documentation because we never had a clear vision to begin with; instead there was just arbitrary stuff thrown together and blind faith that spontaneous order would turn it into a useful product.
we also use https on an internal-only webserver
and dev web server
I think thats my point.
11:31 AM
@Wes on the other hand
the next gen https is secured by default
@MarkAmery My vague recollection is that Documentation failed because it rewarded adding detail to articles, so ... that's exactly what people did. And then the C++ Hello World example became so technically detailed as to be incomprehensible to anyone who would need a Hello World example.
@doppelgreener snort
IMO that was a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, @doppelgreener
@doppelgreener That was one of the reasons yeah. You'd get contributor status (+5 rep every time the example was upvoted) for adding a certain # of characters to it
removing gave you nothing in fact it could revoke your already present contributor status
I guess https everywhere means that there is no trust. That something can't be public. That everything needs overhead. Thats proxies can't.
11:32 AM
@Magisch oh! shoot, so there would be a sort of pile-on effect of "i want in on this article"?
@Magisch Wow, really? I never knew that detail; that's hilariously bad.
Its just sad that we got to this stage I guess. No trust. (for good reasons)
@MarkAmery gotcha :)
@MarkAmery iirc, yeah
and for a while there was no way to undo someone's bad edit in a way that denied them rep
But yeah, I think my thesis on Documentation is that these sorts of details were not the fundamental thing wrong with it
11:33 AM
so you could go in, make an article a lot worse, get someone to approve it, and BAM. rep for you
Not sure the rep thing works when the network is this scale.
I agree
they could have worked the rep thing out somehow
Meta is very good at pointing out things that are clearly, objectively flawed with the product and articulating obvious, uncontroversial fixes
There was a huge rep rehash
@MarkAmery i see! i was not super involved but was interested in learning what went wrong when it closed.
11:34 AM
But the union of all the imaginable small fixes to straightforward issues would not have made Documentation useful
People lost undeserved thousands
the only thing i could figure out was that it suffered from the tyranny of point systems: if you reward people for doing a thing, as many people as possible will do as much of that thing as possible, no ifs ands or buts, so be careful what you ask for because you will get it. :)
@AndrasDeak think I lost about 4k
It kind of was a measure of trust. But now I can sail by getting extra permissions with questions not even answers that were asked long ago.
all from one of the examples I edited a bit early on
11:35 AM
It was a community thing but I doubt most active users are part of any community on here.
@doppelgreener the paperclip maximizers
@Magisch yes :D
"add words to this article." "you got it!"
I know chat rooms exist however SE isn't social I don't think. I used to look at rep to see how likely an answer was to be good or well thought out. That doesn't work on a site of this scale with this many users. With people who have been on here years.
"add words to the most-referenced articles." "you got it!"
I think one of the SQL examples had a perpetual yule log of people changing the syntax style back and forth at some point
11:46 AM
IMO some of the fundamental problems were:
- What sort of thing should be an "Example"? How about a "Topic"? We did not agree!
- Limiting the number of Examples in a Topic means that many things that naturally seem like Topics cannot be covered comprehensively. Removing the limit would've made many topics sprawling messes.
- Lack of any tools to make sweeping structural changes to existing documentation. Lack of community clarity on what those tools ought to look like.
- Lack of a clear idea of who readers should be or how they would arrive at Documentation.
11:56 AM
@MarkAmery Thank you for that summary.
broadly agree
been trying to read/catch up all the discussion that went on since I left yesterday evening. Stopped halfway, too much smoke
12:12 PM
@Derpy errrrr
SD smoke?
Sorry, its been busy
20 messages moved to Chimney
@JourneymanGeek no, I didn't meant that. I was trying to catch up with all the post around that usual topic starting from shog ones and reading on. But it felt like reading smoke.
@Derpy and that's what you get for flying through canada /s
sorry, the joke is lost I fear.
Canada recently legalized weed
hence the joke that it was "Getting overly smokey"
12:39 PM
....... ok, I guess.
1:01 PM
@Derpy true. Fire is finally gone, still some smoke left. 🔥
@Mgetz and Germany?
@ShadowWizard I didn't realize they had, for odd reasons things like that don't show up in the news here
1:29 PM
Is the cool stuff('What's important is you can expect something special every 7 - 10 days from now until just before the start of Winter Bash ') from 10 years birthday out yet?
most possibly postponed due to recent uproar
because if they continued with the cheese, then the community would believe that they were ignored furthermore about that incident
1:46 PM
@TimPost Your answer was pretty good, just could have used a little fleshing out. Hope you'll consider editing and undeleting when you have the time.
I don't actually see what was missing from it myself
Anybody ever seen anything like the right panels here? I don't have enough about it for a meta bug post, but when the link points specifically to that answer by Smokey, the right panel shows up in Consolas with weird spacing.
Was it missing an "I've seen this used to good effect" statement?
@Chair Yep they are messed up
Navigating to page 2 of the answers also messed up for my case
@doppelgreener Have you seen something similar before? I tried using a link pointing to a couple of the other answers to that question but it doesn't repeat.
1:51 PM
@Somewhat to be fair, I basically stopped posting in my cheese room since the incident
I don't fell motivated enough now.
@Chair never seen this before
Almost certainly broken by an answer discovering a markdown bug
@apaul I'm .. unlikely to use that site recreationally again.
Aha, looks like it breaks at this answer: meta.stackexchange.com/a/189064/152515
That experience was just pretty, well, awful. It's just not a site for me.
2:05 PM
@Magisch and I think I remember you being happy about it
@TimPost I didn't have any bad intentions though.
@TimPost Sorry to hear that, especially if it was somewhat my fault. I'm... probably still a little too sensitive when judging answers on IPS - overall, the answer was much better than what IPS usually gets as a first attempt, with a couple paragraphs that could use some more backup. I... probably should have customized that comment a little more. I'll be stepping back a bit from that site for a little while.
Is it... status by-design that the network profile's activity doesn't show deleted posts, but show comments on deleted posts?
@Somewhat showing comments on deleted posts sounds wrong. O_O
oh wait, wrong observation, nvm...
(but I did remember a case like that in the past, let me find it if I see it)
2:14 PM
@TimPost That's entirely understandable. Hopefully we'll be able to smooth out those rough edges... We're working on it, but it's been challenging. Seems like we're in our terrible two's and we just learned the word "no" sorry about that.
Sep 6 at 4:22, by Somewhat
Ugh... I could see a deleted comment on someone's network profile's "all activity" ._.
okay, not comments on deleted posts, but deleted comments... (but can't find samples for now)
if the answer is "caching" then...
@Somewhat that sounds like a definite bug
2:33 PM
@Somewhat yup. Network profile synchronization sometimes need a kick.
@DragandDrop cheese
2:47 PM
@AndrasDeak yah
getting over 4k rep from a 20 some char big spelling fix I did at the start was just ridiculous
3:01 PM
well you'd be over 10k now! :P
I really wish we could get more granular "view" information, i.e.: timestamp when views occur, what portion of each post was actually in the viewport during that user's visit, etc. Could go a long way for properly attributing value to answers... not just for the "people reached" metric but also for showcasing hot answers over questions.
@canon way too much overhead with millions of views every day.
and add some blockchain while we're at it
@ShadowWizard that really depends on what kind of value you stand to get out of it. Granted, I'm not in a position to make that determination.
Hello @Andras who are you?
3:04 PM
I'm Jeff
no, wait...
@canon well this can work for small sites or maybe SOfT as well.
teams is different because that's for paying customers, and devs need wage to work
What happened to Tim on IPS? If it's not something too sensitive to discuss?
@AndrasDeak and half of that would be blatant cheating wouldn't it?
@Mgetz what's your opinion about legalizing weed?
3:17 PM
There's no such thing as cheating when it comes to fake internet points. Well, there is, but mods can handle that :P
there's so much garbage content getting piles of rep I wouldn't mind you magically getting to 10k being able to delete stuff
@AndrasDeak I wouldn't mind having a delete vote either. I did run for mod that one time
@Somewhat your pet?
Ah, right!
3:39 PM
@ShadowWizard he wrote a good answer that (IMO) did meet site guidelines (and was better than most first answers), got a negative comment saying he hadn't explained his reasoning when he did, and deleted his answer.
My tweet is pinned? Huh, things you don't learn by mostly skimming the transcript.
(Well, not yesterday; way too much transcript for me...)
you're a celebrity now :P
@MonicaCellio ugh. Guess the combination with the recent events caused such an unfortunate outcome otherwise he usually has a really thick skin. :/
Lose-lose situation anyway without doubt.
IPS needs to be more welcoming to new users
3:54 PM
moo 🐄
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