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1:07 AM
@Magisch Not to mention to avoid pinging at all here.
@πάνταῥεῖ that's not how it works
We're trying to deal with specific issues and try to help improve the mood/environment here
If you're pinging someone with a good reason - ehhhh its fine.
@JourneymanGeek I've been missing those good reasons mostly.
@πάνταῥεῖ well, an ongoing conversation like this is one
1:22 AM
The point here isn't to marginalise anyone. Its to try to help folks find a balance. We try to deal with behaviour, not pick on folks.
Did I really pick on folks, unless asking smokey for brewing tea or coffee ?
In telling Sonic to ping people less?
It wasn't helpful at all
Depends on people, no?
True but I kinda think that its something best handled as situations come along.
We shouldn't be doing this as "the nagging should continue as behaviour improves"
Now that we have attempted to set some ground rules, I'd rather go with gentle reinforcement, positive or negative.
OK, let's see then ...
1:27 AM
And this is something we've talked about and kind of have an idea of
<<< Put's some whiskey in their coffee .. ;-)
1:46 AM
@Somewhat morning...
2:07 AM
needs moar coffee...
"The reason why we require you to take this class [on government] is because the government mandates it. If you disagree with that, you can use what you learn in this class and overturn this law. But if you do that, the government wins."
2:27 AM
2:44 AM
(Proposal spotlight, since the proposal has the most active discussions in a short time)
So basically codegolf/PPCG for math?
Math golf?
or Puzzling.SE for math
combine all of them...
I was thinking that too
but unlike puzzling these actually have non arbitrary answers
I guess the multiple approaches are the answers, just like how Math.SE's doing right now...
but yeah, not sure about the boundary of duplicate answers...
3:18 AM
@TimPost Has there been any outcome of the review you said "will take a week or two" here?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog ehhh.
Pings and fast tracking. Maybe a comment might work?
@JourneymanGeek Already left a comment a while ago.
So another one?
Also, this isn't "fast tracking". I'm not saying I want the request implemented - I'm just asking if the review has taken place.
He said it "will take a week or two" to review.
Same difference
I'm sorry man, but the nagging will continue until the stuff people complained about improves.
3:27 AM
@JourneymanGeek This isn't "can you please look at [x]" or "please implement [y]".
That is fast-tracking.
It is very much "can you please look at [x]"
Even if you're unaware of it.
Referring to something someone said in a particular post, and asking for back-and-forth discussion, is not "fast-tracking".
It's more prudent to do that in chat rather than in comments.
But but... see, it is this kind of reasoning that has gotten us to this situation at all.
@JourneymanGeek He's already looked at it and left an answer.
Trust me here
Chat isn't really the best place for it.
3:29 AM
@JourneymanGeek "Please avoid extended discussions in comments"
"Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat."
The tavern is meant to be a social space for folks to interact
So talking "shop" all the time means that well... that utility is gone for staff
So they don't hang out as much
@JourneymanGeek Meaning?
@JourneymanGeek Out of curiosity, have you looked at this link I left a while ago?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog basically that's why people get annoyed at you for pinging say shog or tim about something in meta
Those six rules pretty much sum up my interaction here.
Basically they, and we kinda want to sometimes talk about the network in general sure
but but
if your sum of all interaction is what's "work" for them, well
It stops being fun
they leave. We leave.
3:33 AM
I suggest you at least skim over the headings for the six rules.
If you expect us to adjust to you, we expect the minimum amount of effort to adjust to... everyone else
@JourneymanGeek Quite a few of my potential pings toward Shog have been prevented by his 9 rules.
I'll happily yell at @πάνταῥεῖ if he's giving you crap
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog so... I'm a RO here. I've had extensive conversations over what that means, and what I'm expected to do.
@JourneymanGeek Understood, but I don't think that's nice. Let's be nice both ways.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog on the other hand, due to a quirk of... this place, we as a whole kind of also have the responsibility to well...
folks with diamonds here to make sure this is a great place for them too.
3:36 AM
There's also quite a few other adjustments, such as my not making edits to your posts to alter the flow, etc.
Am I going to go tell shog "hey, Sonic has issues! Read this Pamphlet! Come back!"?
There's still a lot of adjustments remaining. But don't say that I haven't made a minimum level of adjustment.
Or can I try to go "hey, we NEED you to change these things, cause it is driving people away"
We quite literally set explicit rules because you said you deal better with those, tbh
It is driving people away
@JourneymanGeek I guess it's my fault for assuming that every SE employee is an employee because they are super interested in SE.
> In an autistic friendship, a shared interest is often the glue that keeps the friendship together. Two fanatics of Stack Exchange will be friends because they like Stack Exchange. But they aren’t really interested in seeing the person, they’re interested in talking about Stack Exchange. Therefore, exchanging information is the most important part of the friendship, and who says what and how it is said are of secondary importance.
I'm not going to threaten to kick you. I'm just figuring at some point, if no one actually stepped up and made the hard decisions, and said the painful shit, everyone would be gone.
3:40 AM
[SE] is expanded to Stack Exchange in chat
I love computers. I talk about them some days. Sometimes I just grab a water bottle, and an umbrella, and wander off into a park.
@JourneymanGeek That said...
> If the other autistic person can understand what his friend feels like when he is bothered, then he will stop. His feelings will not have been hurt because of what his friend said; after all, his friend had every right to tell him to stop bothering him. Similarly, an autistic person who does not want to be with another autistic person will not hesitate to say, “I don’t want to be with you.” In both cases, no one’s feelings will be hurt. The truth is better than being polite.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm a SU mod. I'm passionate about the site. ON THE OTHER HAND, I tell people, even core users that they need to flag or use other 'formal' methods so I can keep track of it.
So please continue letting me know about this.
Or other mods to hurry up so I can go to sleep.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Don't worry. As I said. I'll keep nagging if I see anything that's been a problem. I will also, however have your back as a regular user, and try my best to be mindful about how far to go
The other ROs are kinda helpful there and I've had users with various levels of autistic spectrum so I actually have some experience there.
3:43 AM
That's great. Ideally, the minimum level of accommodation would be mutual.
(which helps. I'd probably have kicked you otherwise lol)
@JourneymanGeek Not with me, but that's happened IRL to quite a few of my autistic friends.
That's not a threat or anything.
erm. Kicking?
@JourneymanGeek as in, "kicked out of school", "kicked out of an establishment", etc.
Well, that's an accomodation we've chosen to make to a point
But ya, nagging is what I prefer for now
3:45 AM
@JourneymanGeek See also:
Q: How do I express to others to more quickly let me know about social mistakes I make?

gparyani I recently suffered a bit of a fallout in a teaching group I'm frequently a participant in. This was because I kept making brutally honest criticism about their style of teaching (e.g. "your teaching style needs a lot of work because [x]"), which others didn't really like me doing, and those o...

(Stuck Ctrl key)
lol on your phone?
The removed message contains "v", so a lack of a Ctrl press made it post "v" instead of pasting in the URL
Well, in a sense, when we talk to you about things like...
"Hey this is creepy"
Even when the statement is addressed at someone else, we're trying to help you see, well..
(The situation there is a different, but still real, situation, but the answer is applicable here too.)
how a more "neurotypical" or at least a differently non neurotypical person sees it
that's why we get annoyed when you go "But that specific person hasn't expressed that they don't want me to do it"
3:50 AM
> Ideally, the minimum level of accommodation would be mutual.
I really, really believe that most of us want to accommodate you, just like we want to be accommodated.
But I wonder, why some have tried it hard, but failed, and thus it'd be easier to ignore you...?
> There are still a lot of adjustments remaining.
@Somewhat tbh. I don't think anyone really knows how to deal with the broader situation
I don't. I'm trying to make it up as I go along ;)
@JourneymanGeek Unrelated question: if I happened to be in Singapore on a long transit on the way to India, and you were free, would you be down for a meetup?
Probably not
Okay, no problem that you're not really comfortable with it.
3:54 AM
I'm not very social in meatspace and my current job basically leaves me no real free time
We probably won't go via Singapore because it's too far from LAX and currently there's no nonstop from LAX to Singapore (other than by United and that's a crap of an airline)
Singapore Airlines' stops in Tokyo or Seoul on the way and we prefer one-stop journeys
Preferably via Europe, so the flights are of equal length, unlike those via East Asia or the Middle East
4:08 AM
also quite a lot of decent airlines hub around here anyway
and I THIIIIINNKKKKKKK india is closer to the US than singapore
4:22 AM
Ugh... I could see a deleted comment on someone's network profile's "all activity" ._.
@JourneymanGeek Just waiting for Air India to come to LAX...they did come to San Francisco.
Booking flights between LAX and Mumbai is a bit of an art, a learned skill.
Ideally it would be between San Diego and Nagpur, but until either of these expands more, we'll have to drive to LA and catch a local flight to Nagpur.
Or pay $3k+ per ticket, instead of $1k+ per ticket otherwise.
4:41 AM
well, I can see San Diego to an indian hub
Nagpur is a regional capital but not really one of the really big metros
dogpuppet detected
Don't mind me switching between bartbot and this lol
I was checking something on my work pc and forgot lol
5:25 AM
@Bartbot San Diego's airport has expanded quite a bit with its international destinations. Ten years ago they only had flights within North America, but now there are flights to the UK, Germany, Japan, and Switzerland.
@Bartbot Nagpur's airport desperately wants to expand but can't due to low demand from international carriers.
@JourneymanGeek I kinda suspected dogpuppetry because "indian" wasn't capitalized
I've mentioned the dogpuppet a lot of times
I thought Aibobot was your other sock
@JourneymanGeek We actually flew SAN-LHR-BOM once. It was much more expensive than flying from LAX -> BOM.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog he changed it to Bartbot for science to test whether partial name pings both or not
aka. "The Bart Ping" incident
5:41 AM
But I can't change it back for a month
5:56 AM
(Are you OK with routine "Chaos Emerald" dupehammer pings?)
6:09 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Starting my undergrad at Berkeley.
I could faintly hear music from there...
Oh wait, wrong school :(
Its spelled differently
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog sure; I do tend to be busy at certain moments and then I'll just ignore them without notice.
@Glorfindel So, to be clear here, you wouldn't mind?
6:26 AM
@bjb568 Berkeley? Nice... assume you have full scholarship?
Good morning!
> Berkeley is a city in Northern California on the east side of San Francisco Bay. It’s home to the University of California, Berkeley, birthplace of the 1960s Free Speech Movement. The 1914 Sather Tower, known as the Campanile, has views of the campus and the bay. The open-air Hearst Greek Theatre stages major concerts. Clustered on and near Telegraph Avenue, south of the university, are cafes, shops and music stores.
@bjb568 More important than the scholarship: what are you studying?
@JourneymanGeek why not two Chrome users on same computer? Easier to not make mistakes this way.... ;)
@JourneymanGeek you can ask a mod here to do it. All you need is a ping and to be nice. :P
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard messages from Bartbot are never a mistake!
6:29 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard two different computers lol
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard isn't important ._.
@JourneymanGeek but you can ask.... ;)
I hardly ever use aibobot lol
@Tinkeringbell Morning! So I noticed that users often refer to you as "Tink"; are you OK with that? People often referred to me as "Ano" but I didn't like it.
no real point
I gotta practice what I preach and all.
Its something unimportant, and I really don't want to waste a CM's time on the aftermath of mild science
let me try something
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog not same thing at all. Tink is just short pingable version of her full name. Ano was a totally "new" name, unrelated to your actual name which I wasn't even aware of when using Ano.
Tink is like Sha.
Or Sonic, actually.
6:32 AM
@Tinkeringbell I believe Maths...
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I would assume Mithrandir already answered that for you
Easier to remember, shorter to write.
@Tin is too weird, both because of meaning and too similar to Tim, which makes it dangerous.... ;)
@Tinkeringbell He said it's an established nickname. I responded saying that Ano is an established nickname for me, but I eventually expressed that I didn't like it. Would you do the same?
Shad, Journ, Tinke, Balpha
@Somewhat Ah well... That's a bummer. Nothing we can talk about then, I'm horrible at Maths ;)
6:33 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard fixed
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I should change to Timkeringbell just for that XD
@Somewhat Balpha isn't short version, just a wrong version which is proved to make bal angry. :D
@JourneymanGeek hmm? What's fixed?
@Somewhat as long as I know its me, its fine. geek's actually the preferred short form
Got my first Blue Apron shipment today. Time to get cooking...
@Bartbot 's nickname SHOULD get fixed once ... caching
since I'm a mod I can force change nicks
6:35 AM
@Tinkeringbell no no, must have a space to match the other Tims. So you can be... Timkering Bell!
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Disney ripoff
Tim Caring Bell would be the best.
@JourneymanGeek nah... just a "partial username" joke that will ping, since @Geek won't ping you ;p
ahh tr00
@JourneymanGeek but.... only on SE.com chat... no?
6:36 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yes, it's fine.
@JourneymanGeek but @geek won't ping you.... :(
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard :P But that'd be a bit too masculine for me ;)
@Aibobot welcome back!
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Apparently not
6:37 AM
@Tinkeringbell pretty sure there are many females named "Tim"! Let me check...
I do wonder if the reparenting trick works that way
buh can't find... oh well.
I have a female client named "Doron" which is, or was, a 100% male name. So...
> @Bartbot welcome back!
There is no Bartbot. ONLY ZUUUUULLLLLL
6:40 AM
@Aibobot beware the cat
@Aibobot sit!
@Aibobot bark!
Does not compute
uh oh, this Aibo is scary...
@JourneymanGeek your dog is untrained!
hopefully doesn't become like this
Put @Aibobot in Den for a day, and he'll become as trained as any of the 5 bots in there. :P
6:43 AM
@Tinkeringbell Out of curiosity, are there baby naming laws in the Netherlands? I know Germany and Norway have them.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard You could always ask a Tim to change their name :P
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard well the point of aibobot is mainly to do very little
@JourneymanGeek Why did you create it?
@Tinkeringbell I believe it was originally for suggesting edits.
But those could be done logged out as well.
@Tinkeringbell couple of things.
6:45 AM
@JourneymanGeek so it's just a sock, not a real bot..?
@Tinkeringbell one Tim's name is set in Stone... the other Tim is too scary!
Suggesting edits (and being able to keep an eye on it) and using on less trusted systems
@Tinkeringbell ya, sadly
@Aibobot is same as Shadow of the Shadow... ;)
Also, to see how less privileged users see the site... (remember when you can't upvote or comment anywhere? :(
@Aibobot hello brother sock! :D
6:46 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Mephiles the Dark, you mean?
@Somewhat Hahaha I know. I don't need a sock for that though, I just go to MSE to remember life without mod powers ;)
@Somewhat but @Aibobot got association bonus, so that one isn't relevant for testing anymore. :/
o well :/
(@JourneymanGeek has to use yet another sock to test privilege-less user on a site)
I don't really need to yet lol
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I HNQed .-.
@Tinkeringbell I'm active on a few other sites. ;p
6:49 AM
@JourneymanGeek sounds like a kid coming to his parents and saying in small sad voice "I got 100 in that super complicated quiz which I didn't even learn for".... :D
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I rarely need to see how something works.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard nearly all of aibo's rep is from 2 questions ;p
@JourneymanGeek even just to reproduce a reported bug... :)
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard eh, maybe but that's not really something that interests me
Most of my MSE stuff's "soft" subjects
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog interesting reference, might change the sock to it if changing again my main.... :)
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard "I fell asleep during the exam, scribbled something on the paper in the last 5 min, and got an A"
A: My cat sat on my laptop, now the right side of my keyboard types the wrong characters

AibobotThat's the standard tenkeyless Num Lock key layout found on many PCs. Turn off Num Lock - on my Lenovo, it's Fn + F10, but the combination may vary by manufacturer.

see the first revision
6:54 AM
@JourneymanGeek exactly!
@JourneymanGeek yeah yeah, I know. Strike of Luck. :D
@JourneymanGeek was that an abstract art exam?
@Somewhat oddly no
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard It was mildly horrifying
I got bunch of questions marked HNQ without meaning to, it just come as a pleasant surprise. IMO. :)
Think the most surprising one was about English word after a "fight" I had in Den about meaning.
Q: Can "immortal" be used to describe someone that lives forever, yet can be destroyed?

Shadow WizardI am aware of the dictionary definition of the word "immortal": (source) Or in words: living forever; never dying or decaying However, that does not directly imply "can't be destroyed", as far as I can see. My logic (which might be wrong!) tells me that someone might live forever by ...

in Shadow's Den, Mar 22 '16 at 19:00, by Shadow Wizard
Looks like I was right and you were wrong, @Pro - you can be destroyed even if you say you're "immortal". :D
Argument won! :P
Done, and dusted delvoted
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog oh the U&L one is the other thing I use aibobot for
posting slightly snarky answers about Kali Linux with odd soviet screwdrive vehicles
This user is not my girlfriend.
(@JourneymanGeek @Shadow @Derpy)
Derpy's not here
Not sure why I got pinged for that tho 0_0
7:22 AM
unexpected turn of events!?
Nah, that was expected. Just blame the occasional passer by ...
@JourneymanGeek to show off his new sock, I'd say. :)
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog but she is cute. Enjoy! :D
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard actually, that's what I believe now... since the account was created in the middle of dogpuppet conversation
@Somewhat exactly...
Either this, or someone is playing tricks on poor @Sonic... :D
glares at @Bart
Mod Staff can probably know for sure, so I won't be surprised to see Sonic pinging a CM to check who created that account, if it's not him.... :P
7:39 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Absolutely no use in that... that kind of stuff falls under PII and would never be shared.
@Somewhat you don't have any sock? And you, @Tinker? :)
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I have plenty of socks. None of them are online though.
@Tinkeringbell it's obviously a joke account, so it's different case.
I need smart-socks... e-socks?
7:40 AM
@Tinkeringbell don't start with this... I already shared my socks drawer after @rene asked for it..... :P
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Okay, then you win :P I don't need a drawer for my socks, they fit in an old shoe box.
@Tinkeringbell sock that play music to your legs? Cool!
(If I don't count the two pairs of fleece lined home socks)
My wife always laugh at me for having tons of socks.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Socks that keep track of movement and heartrate sounds more feasible :P
7:41 AM
Well, I already have my e-drawer...
I just had a "sock spree" for a while, buying like 5 new pairs every week because it was on sale. o_O
Huh, your socks have holes?
That was couple of years ago though, so by now most socks are pretty old.
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I always buy mine 10 at a time... and half of them end up in my mom's possession, I'm sure!
@Tinkeringbell lol
@Somewhat no! I keep them hole-free, and if the worst happens and hole appears... time to say good bye to the sock. :D
7:43 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard You can repair the hole too :)
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard then how do you wear those... hole-less socks? ._.
(okay, lame joke ._.)
I like buying 10 pairs of just black socks. If one get's a hole, and another too, I combine the orphaned ones into a new pair :)
But since I never go with socks only (always with shoes as well), no holes happen. Common cause of death for my socks is just getting old and un-flexible, or whatever it's called when I can't stretch them to fit nicely. :)
@Somewhat oh.... that hole... lol....
Mine tend to get a little thread bare even when I always wear shoes.
And then they just have a hole all of a sudden
Well, sock must have a hole to put the leg into, otherwise, well, it's not a sock.... :P
@Tinkeringbell that requires all 10 to be the same type and look exactly though....
7:46 AM
might search for foot wraps as an alternative for hole-less... socks :p
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard 'just black socks' 'buying 10 pairs'... :P
My wife got 10 which looks almost the same, but with very subtle color difference. I always work very hard to match them when folding laundry..... o_O :D
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog and I was thinking your avatar was lame and effort-less.... and now here it is - another user, another stock image :P Can't you too at least switch to some fan art?
Now I'm curious. How many different 'just black socks' can there be?
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Meh. if it's subtle, no-one will notice when wearing ;)
@Derpy That is fan art, I can't use official Sega property due to copyright reasons
7:47 AM
50 shades of black socks...
@Tinkeringbell umm... well... she notice instantly.... after being scolded once I try not to make that mistake again... :P
@Somewhat I do wonder, do they wear socks in those movies?
Are they black?
umm, some are #FF000000, the other is like, #00000000?
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Hahaha... that's bad :P My mom is the same though.
As in, transparent?
I once managed to mess up two shades of blue apparently
7:50 AM
@JohnDvorak yes, but black
@Tinkeringbell you got @bluefeet?
Back when I bought socks, I usually bought 5 at a time:
that is gross
@rene Nope. I wear black socks. Or bright green. Never blue :P
Still got like 10 of those
@rene white socks gross? Why? #isConfused
7:51 AM
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Just don't wear them with sandals :)
Or in low sneakers
You're not Nadal, right?
@Tinkeringbell I don't wear sandals. ;)
Sandal for Nadal... priceless. :D :D :D
@Tinkeringbell flip-flops?
Morning @JNat, sorry no spammers or trolls for now.... what's up anyway? :D
@rene Eh... That's actually kinda hard to do?
7:53 AM
you'll flop
@Tinkeringbell so you fold the shared laundry? ;)
@Tinkeringbell disturbingly enough, it isn't: ebay.com/p/Bamboo-ToeHugs-Flip-Flop-Socks-White-5-7/1777875423
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Sometimes :) I help out from time to time ;)
@rene Those are made for it... oh My! I want a pair now
5-fingers socks... hmm...
7:56 AM
> Sandals not included
@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard wat!?!?
that's not fair..
because I want the sandals, not the socks ._.
hmm... might contact the seller to ask about the sandals~

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