Tavern on the Meta - 2017-10-17 (page 3 of 3)

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2:00 PM

29

Q: Do we want three moderators, or four?

When we asked Stack Staff for an election to fill wax eagle's spot, we were thinking just in terms of bringing our active moderators back up to three. We didn't think about it much farther than that. The idea of electing more than one more mod came up in comments, and Grace Note (who's the CM ta...

discussion election moderation

Have there been cases where no elections where held due to the mods insisting on 0 seats?

@rene elections aren't regular, are they?

Journeyman Geek

@rene elections kinda happen on request

They're on a "as needed" basis

Journeyman Geek

so practically whenever there's no election, that happens

2:00 PM

That would be weird then

SO happens to have them almost yearly due to its size and growth.

although that may change soon, I hear - @bluefeet, was there any update on that?

I heard somewhere (no quote to back this up sadly) that elections get held because mods approach cms that they need help or because mods announce that they retire

@rene probably. There have been times when we might think it's time for a site to have an election, but the current mod staff doesn't think it's needed

@Mithrandir on what?

@bluefeet And then the mods win?

2:01 PM

I already forgot the sources for like a third of the tidbits that I know about SEs interna :/

@rene mods know the site better than the CM's so I expect that's the case.

Journeyman Geek

Lets say I decide to quit, and go to become a mad hermit in bukit timah. SU's mods will go "hey CMs - we need a new mod" or "we need two mods to cover for Geek cause reasons" and then stuff willl happen and then ELECTIONS!

user202362

@bluefeet so is there any statistics on the number of planned vs actual mods elected for all past years?

@bluefeet the change to the election system for mods to have a one-year term and then decide if they want to continue every year

Journeyman Geek

now if we ask for 20 mods, the CMs woild probably go "YOU CRAY CRAY"

2:02 PM

@rene If they don't think they need more hands to help out, then we tend to listen to the existing staff. It's a discussion we have with them.

I think when bill left they elected 3 people to replace him

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch Bill was a legend ;p

tbh Bill the Lizard was a moderation machine

Journeyman Geek

yup

@Magisch lol... if Brian will leave they'll need 100 programmers to replace him, that man is a programming monster. :D

Journeyman Geek

2:03 PM

I'm pretty sure any one of our active mods ought to be a one to one switch ;p

We have a guy here in the labs

He can probably fix all the android app bugs in few days, if only given the chance.

Is like 70 years old but does the work of 5 people easily without breaking a sweat

@Mithrandir there has been some discussion, but nothing is set in stone yet.

in iOS and Android Apps, Apr 24 '15 at 19:51, by Kasra Rahjerdi

dude Brian is a monster. It's not even fair.

Always makes me smile ^

(then sad, because.. android app... buh)

Journeyman Geek

2:05 PM

@ShadowWizard I end up using the desktop site on my phone cause... moderation tools ;p

the android app's mainly for notifications for me ._.

@JourneymanGeek me too, and sometimes comments

I don't use the app, I just use the full site on mobile and zoom.

why oh why can't you flag comments on the mobile view?

user315433

Way back, when lang-SO proposals on Area 51 got summarily closed, "SO in Turkish" remained in "on hold" phase as a sole exception. It stayed this way for a long while - as recently as January 2017 it was still alive. Eventually got deleted, though. Was there any comment on that?

Journeyman Geek

@Mithrandir I need mah notifications

@Telkitty what we plan for is what we hold an election for, so the stats would be the number of seats that have been elected.

user202362

2:07 PM

after election results I assume

!!/rev

@Mithrandir bwDraco/Linode a3e9bf9 (SmokeDetector: Auto blacklist of facts4fitness\.com by tripleee --autopull)

I don't think a single SO election was ever cancelled due to lack of candidates

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch see "bigger sites"

user315433

The only such cancellations were Data Science and Theoretical Computer Science, both this year.

user202362

2:08 PM

@bluefeet so why exactly were there only 2 mods elected vs 3 or more all other times?

@Telkitty because they didn't need as many this time?

user202362

has a key factor changed?

it grew less than other years? Martijn got crazier?

@Telkitty presumably not as many mods retiring as usual / the flag queue not getting as big

@Desire "closed as non-English community by Tim Post♦ Feb 17 at 13:09"

2:09 PM

Martijn and Brad are moderation machines too

Journeyman Geek

@Telkitty for a mature site - its basically a top up of mods based on stuff like mods retiring, flag queues and so on

30

Q: Internationalization 'State of the Stack'

For those I haven't yet met, I'm Tim Post, the Director of Stack Overflow Communities here at Stack Exchange. When we said we planned to reverse our previous stance on localization some years ago, we really had no idea what we were getting into. We had some experience, we knew that it can be tri...

area51-meta closed-proposals localization

@Telkitty The current mods felt they only needed 2 more mods. As I mentioned, it's a discussion we have with the current mods and the CMs to decide how many seats we have in an election. Sometimes it's one seat, sometimes 2, sometimes more.

user315433

Well, that's short and to the point, without wordy meta posts.

user315433

@Shog9 Yeah, the meta post is from 2015; the Turkish site was closed in 2017.

2:11 PM

@Desire the close reason links to the meta post

user202362

@bluefeet According to this page, it has NEVER been less than 3, never ...

it was closed Feb 17th of '17 and then automatically deleted a month or so later.

First election was for 2 mods, as we established earlier.

@Shog9 question is, why it took so long to be closed?

Journeyman Geek

@Telkitty so they needed 3 before.

they needed 2 now

@ShadowWizard hope?

Journeyman Geek

2:12 PM

These things happen

@Telkitty and that's not the rule though.

@Shog9 yes, that's the meaning of my IRL name. :D

user315433

@Telkitty There's a first time for everything.

user202362

@Shog9 and you ended up with 5?

@ShadowWizard Hope Wizard, eh?

Journeyman Geek

2:12 PM

@ShadowWizard is your last name "abandon ye all"?

@Shog9 exactly!

@Telkitty first election. Prior to the current election system. The first election listed under /election was actually the third election.

@JourneymanGeek actually it used to be "Braver Man".... just one word. ;)

user315433

First election winners were Bill and Marc.

@Telkitty Are you trying to insinuate they didn't call up Yvette because of particular reasons?

2:13 PM

ancient history here

user202362

anti-diversity

I was brave enough to change my last name though. :)

Journeyman Geek

(which probably isn't helping Yvette at all tbh)

She seems to be a really good mod at pets I'd add.

user315433

The timeline of SO moderators shows that the number of mods expanded by 2 the first three times.

@Telkitty considering Yvette had the same chance as everyone else, that's a stretch

2:15 PM

Welcome New Community Moderators

Jeff Atwood on May 19, 2009

The Stack Overflow moderator election is now complete.

There were two users who clearly ran away from the pack in the voting: Marc Gravell and Bill the Lizard. Between the two of them, they accounted for almost a third of all the 2,880 votes cast.

It was a tough choice determining such a close race — so we didn’t! Both Bill and Marc are new Stack Overflow moderators. I’ve posted some moderation guidelines and flipped the switch on their accounts.

As for Server Fault, that was tougher, because the community is just starting out. None of the existing Stack Overflow team is really qualified to moderate a site intended for system administrators and IT professionals. …

Stack Overflow 2010 Moderator Election Results

Jeff Atwood on February 09, 2010

The Stack Overflow 2010 Moderator Election results are in!

We decided to choose two moderators this time, just like last time. The winners are … drumroll please …

Congratulations to our newest community elected moderators, Gumbo and Jonathan Sampson

(update: Jason Cohen was originally the #2 winner, but withdrew from the race after some post-election reflection)

We used the OpenSTV software to calculate the results.

Per the OpenSTV FAQ, we used the most accurate form of STV to calculate these results: …

First two election results, each with two winners.

user315433

I see three batches of pre- /election page mods: Bill & Marc, Gumbo & JS, Will and M Myers.

@Telkitty So you're saying if someone else got third place they would have called them up but didn't call up yvette because she's female?

Because that's a bit of a stretch

user315433

Was the Will & M Myers thing deleted/taken back because, ahem, Will?

user202362

I think I'll have a glass of Rosé and be off to my cosy bed, I don't care about election ...

@Desire we called up two more mods from the 2010 election a few months later:

Summer 2010 Moderator Appointments

Jeff Atwood on July 11, 2010

Due to a continual and ever-growing stream of moderator flags on the classic trilogy — and a desire to be respectful of the time our existing community moderators are so generously contributing to our community — I recently proposed on meta that we add moderators to each classic trilogy site:

(came in 3rd and 4th in our 2010 election)

Please welcome our newest community moderators to the family!

As always, I recommend reading through our theory of moderation which is best summarized by moderate as little as possible. Our community moderators are human exception handlers, but as the si …

2:18 PM

@ShadowWizard - never thought of you as a תקוה

@Oded rofl

(that post has not fared well across the blog migrations :-/)

There are מילים נרדפות in Hebrew, @Oded ;)

Eventually, this room's transcript will be the only reliable history of those early elections...

:P

Journeyman Geek

2:18 PM

@Oded @ShadowWizard don't make me break out the tamil

@Shog9 for certain values of reliable

synonyms == מילים נרדפות

yup ^

@JourneymanGeek למה?

(yeah, llamas are cool etc)

Why?

exactly

2:21 PM

מי יודע מדוע ולמה - מיקי קם

Journeyman Geek

...

So, @Oded's new title is Tavern he-en Translator. Congrats! :-D

Journeyman Geek

ஏன் ????

@JourneymanGeek that's all you got?! :P

Journeyman Geek

;p

2:23 PM

I think @JourneymanGeek is the Malayalam translator then.

Journeyman Geek

Tamil

Malaylam is a completely different script

hehe

Journeyman Geek

we can vaguely understand each other.

and for malayalam, I am here

Tell that to Google Translate.

2:23 PM

@Oded NO. THAT IS ME

Well to us it looks the same, probably as Hebrew and Arabic for you. @Journeyman :)

Journeyman Geek

Better than say, english and french, but enough that we can confuse each other

Tell that to Google Translate.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard എന്തുകൊണ്ട്?
is apparently the same in malayalam

user image

Journeyman Geek

2:25 PM

@Oded there's no way they'd get confused - both languages have unique scripts

yup

Journeyman Geek

I can't remember what kannada or telengu uses

its also squiggly but probably different

in Shadow's Den, 11 secs ago, by FOX 9000

@ShadowWizard [Powered by Yandex Translate] Detected language: ta (Tamil)

Hmmm. Looks like for some reason my Google Translate decided to be stuck on Malayalam as a source language.

@JourneymanGeek എന്തിന് is used more widely

2:27 PM

Y

Journeyman Geek

(amusingly, the one of the old CHAOS employees could speak but not read tamil)

@Oded it always remember the last language used, like SE remembers our tabs. :)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard why would oded need to translate....

oh dear, SE in Malayalam? ;p

coz he want to check whether you're speaking something rude/offensive ;p

lol

Journeyman Geek

2:28 PM

fun fact. I can't curse in my native language at all

Why?

Can't, or won't?

Journeyman Geek

can't ;p

they have no f, c and k in their script?

Journeyman Geek

that's english ;p

O_O

2:29 PM

f_F

Journeyman Geek

we also have no f, no cee or kay sound

@rene ഫ സ ക => fa sa ka. if you want to get F S K, then use എഫ് എസ് കെ

Journeyman Geek

(My parents quite literally never ever swore and basically every single swearword I know is hokkien or english)

so I literally break into "Frack" or various other sci fi curses when at the end of my teather

We don't have "j" in Hebrew.

(not natively)

@ShadowWizard ജെ

2:33 PM

@OptimusPrime District??

HAPPY DIWALI to @JourneymanGeek @TheLittleNaruto @Sinister and all

Thanks!

Deepavali or Diwali is the Hindu festival of lights celebrated every year in autumn in the northern hemisphere (spring in southern hemisphere). It is an official holiday in Fiji, Guyana, India, Malaysia, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, and recently Sindh Province in Pakistan. One of the most popular festivals of Hinduism, it spiritually signifies the victory of light over darkness, good over evil, knowledge over ignorance, and hope over despair. Its celebration includes millions of lights shining on housetops, outside doors and windows, around temples...

@ShadowWizard nopes. It is one letter. district => ജില്ല which is jilla (no aa sound. just ah)

if neighbour turned on wifi tomorrow, I will be here. CYA

user315433

I think we should wait just a little bit longer since now we have to depend on screenshots (describing an icon in text is... eww) and the icon may well change again soon. — Shog9 ♦ 1 hour ago

user315433

A missed opportunity to use "stapler chat thingy" in the Help Center.

2:44 PM

@OptimusPrime lol... is there anything you don't... acquire in shady ways? ;)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard no? ;p

(i.e. buy in real money :))

O_O my phone is damaged 4 months ago. So, I can't connect to internet. I am on a room for rent. So, an internet connection is not possible

So @Optimus is downloading pirated movies using a neighbor's WiFi connection. Nicely done. lol

Anyway I am enjoying my life without a smartphone

@ShadowWizard no. It is done from company. The wifi is slow when compared with company's internet

Journeyman Geek

2:47 PM

._.

Since when internet connection is not possible in rented room???? I mean.... lol

"I can't eat because I'm in rented room"

the RO won't allow to purchase a wired connection.

Journeyman Geek

ok....

@OptimusPrime guess you're really lucky he allows you to breathe and eat then.

Journeyman Geek

I just realised someone is claiming to be my sock...

whut?

2:49 PM

@JourneymanGeek on SU? Just reset the profile, suspend, etc. :)

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard MSE too

@ShadowWizard yes. But he will close the main gate by 9.30 PM.

@JourneymanGeek Who?

not me

@OptimusPrime I'd really really go find a new room.... sounds more like prison, not room for rent.

Journeyman Geek

2:50 PM

SpockPuppet, Starship Enterprise

331 9

discussion flags robots spam

@ShadowWizard I am thinking of resigning from this company and go to native

@JourneymanGeek boo

throwing myself on @Journeyman's sock

@JourneymanGeek that's my sock. He said so

lol

@OptimusPrime you mean.... you got room from your company? And they control your internet and hour when you must return home?

I'm sorry to tell you, but you're a slave.

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime its everyone's sock?

2:52 PM

@ShadowWizard no. That's not a company provided room

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard india is... odd in some ways

@JourneymanGeek yeah I'm starting to realize this, lol

You told me to look for a new room. But I prefer to vacate the room, resign from company and go to home

@ShadowWizard now only. you could have noticed the current in the url

Why you reply to non related messages? That's terribly confusing. @Optimus

I need a remote job

Journeyman Geek

2:54 PM

@OptimusPrime so go far away from people?

Better not use Reply icon if you're not actually replying to the message.

@JourneymanGeek no. go to home. now I'm far away from family. go to them

@ShadowWizard I missed a thread between them

Journeyman Geek

is where you live remote?

now in chennai

One thing I learned about India, is that most programmers work in remote places far away from their families.

2:55 PM

true.

Israel is small so it's not relevant, lol

But yeah that's not easy.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard there's a handful of hubs

I am looking for freelance projects. If I got 1 or 2, I will quit from this company. From that 1 or 2, I can build my future

In India, the main IT hubs are Chennai, Bangalore, Pune and then Mumbai and Delhi

Journeyman Geek

kinda surprised its pune over mumbai

That's true

Mumbai don't have much IT firms. Even Hyderabad come above mumbai

Mumbai is a metro city and India's business capital. But bangalore is India's IT hub

3:00 PM

... so many unread chat messages, so little time...

(700+ unread chat messages since woke up this morning)

Journeyman Geek

@Success sleep is overrated anyway

@Success skip it. that's what I do if it is more than 50

Well, I only get the gist of... Telkitty's arguing about 2 open position on SO "first" election

Journeyman Geek

@Success feels like she's just argueing for the sake of it.

user image

TheLittleNaruto

3:20 PM

@OptimusPrime Thanks Man and Happy Diwali to you too. Btw it's on 19th. :)

kicks @JourneymanGeek out of universe for being puppy

I am still waiting for @JonClement reply on my meta post.

Whatever it is, I just want to know.

user315433

@SmokeDetector Looks like Paul and Nick are "relatives".

user315433

Changed my NAA flag on Nick to spam.

user315433

Here's hoping that Bitcoin will elect some spam-savvy moderators. Three candidates so far, including Murch.

4:46 PM

@Telkitty Only two cats. We maintain the 1:1 human to cat ratio in my house.

Reading all of Ron's meta posts... can damage my brain...

user315433

5:25 PM

An edit spoiled the title

user315433

6:35 PM

3

Q: What can we put in a question template to help people ask better questions?

Based on your feedback the DAG team is working on several projects related to question quality. On on the low-hanging-fruit side, we’re going to A/B test some question templates. (As a bonus, we're finally getting around to addressing a feature request we've been hoping to work on for several yea...

discussion featured question-quality

user315433

Kind of hard to avoid narrowing questions down to a debugging session.

I'm tempted to answer it with devdoodle.net/qa/ask (but you have to be logged-in first)

user315433

While discouraging "how to add in-app payments to my app" sort of questions.

user315433

> How to ask
Make sure your question can be answered, not just discussed.
Try to learn something new, don't just ask others to solve your problems.
Ask how to do something, not for a library or other pre-existing code that can do it.
Be deatiled when explaining your problem, also include what you tried to solve it.
Is your question specifically about programming?
Ask about the site itself on meta.

user315433

> Writing a good title
Your question's title is the first thing seen by readers skimming thru questions both here and on search engines. A title effectively capture the essence of the question. Try to avoid titles like:
"Is it possible to…" (you want to know how to do something)
X in [some language] (what about X?)
"XYZ error" (when doing what?)
"Should I…" or "Is … a good idea?" (describe the problem, not the attempted (or not) solution)
"Is X or Y better?" (in what way?)
"Should I use X or Y?" ("Is X or Y better at… ?" is a better phrasing that doesn't depend on your specific circumstances)

user315433

6:49 PM

> Explaining your problem
In the description box, you want to describe your problem in detail. Include any information needed to setup the environment, replicate the bug, or observe the problematic behavior. Be clear about what exactly you did, struggled with, and would like us to help with. The core question box is for your specific request in one well-written sentence, for example "How can I flow foo thru bar?".

user315433

There is also a radio button for the type of question:
fixing non-working code
unexpected behavior in working code
improving working code
how to achieve an end result
algorithms and data structures
techniques and best practices
a theoretical scenario

hmmm... will it... work better?

user315433

Some parts may be useful, I guess.

My bet is that putting a handful of bullet points that the user must erase to post will work a lot better than trying to get people to read a wall of text or self-evaluate their own question.

Half the problem new users have is that asking a useful question is not a skill people tend to develop.

user315433

7:03 PM

So much sand optimization so far.

user315433

How do we make useless debugging sessions go smoother.

user315433

> I want there to be no reason to try to help an OP that sees these prompts, ignores them, and dumps a question. Right now the burden is on the community to draw info from the OP.

user315433

There is no reason.

For somewhat reason, I think I can guess a particular user who always posts abusive holocaust post on Skeptics.SE using throwaway account...

7:31 PM

I wonder how many questions never would have been asked if the OP took the time to produce a MVCE... "Oh, hey... isolating the problem made it really easy to identify!"

Hot ~~Network~~ KRACK Questions

7:42 PM

I found a user who seems to have just created an account, seems to have an account only on a single SE site, yet started out with 101 reputation. How is this possible?

@Szabolcs association bonus + hiding other communities

I believe you can hide other SE accounts in your profile.

Ah

You know... if you don't want to advertise to everyone who checks you out on SO that you're big into yiffing.stackexchange.com

I did not know about hiding. Just found the setting.

8:02 PM

lol, I actually navigated to yiffing.SE and saw this: cdn.sstatic.net/stackexchange/img/panda-huh.jpg

me too, and I thought it's someone inside a panda suit :)

user315433

sigh Math voters apparently didn't give much attention to who actually moderates the site vs posts a lot of answers.

user315433

I blame the lack of insightful meta debates.

I blame democracy.

user315433

There's a reason CMs are not elected.

8:18 PM

... we'd all be out of work?

@Shog9 same for your UI/UX team... BA-ZING!

@Szabolcs Another option is "user had an account, earned the bonus, then deleted all site profiles... only to return later."

@canon The link for that image is sort of weird... "Why god made menopause"?

9:10 PM

@Catija that was unintentional... just grabbed a link from google image search for "ba-zing" :/

define: bazing

you disappoint me, wiktionary

Do any of those bots still work?

Noun: bots

plural of bot
bots m (1st declension)
bot
robot
bots

(2 more not shown…)

Verb: bots

second-person singular present indicative form of botre
bots
first-person singular present indicative of botsen
imperative of botsen

@canon I figured as much.

Verb: botsen

(intransitive) to collide

9:13 PM

"Bazing" for some reason sounds like something from geometry...

Oh, I think it's because I'm thinking of "bayesian".

@Shog9 urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ba-zing

I thought it was... bazinga.

Noun: baz (uncountable)

(computing) A metasyntactic variable used to stand for some unspecified entity, typically the third in a series after foo and bar.
Suppose we have three objects, foo, bar and baz.
baz m
elder (Sambucus nigra)
baz (definite accusative bazı, plural bazlar)

(2 more not shown…)

Adverb: baz

better

Mark Anthony "Baz" Luhrmann (; born 17 September 1962) is an Australian film director, screenwriter and producer best known for Red Curtain Trilogy, comprising his romantic comedy film Strictly Ballroom (1992), the romantic drama Romeo + Juliet (1996), and the pastiche-jukebox musical Moulin Rouge! (2001). His 2008 film Australia is an epic historical romantic drama film starring Hugh Jackman and Nicole Kidman. His 2013 drama The Great Gatsby, based on F. Scott Fitzgerald's 1925 novel of the same name, stars Leonardo DiCaprio (whom he also used in Romeo + Juliet) and Tobey Maguire. == Personal... ==

2 hours later…

user315433

11:21 PM

@SmokeDetector Religion?

Journeyman Geek

11:40 PM

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