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6:07 PM
@TimStone I'll bite. "What's wrong, Tim?"
People arguing with me on model design. :P
..In what essentially is a Mercurial versus Subversion debate.
@TimStone If the model design requires lots of dynamic_cast, they're doing it wrong.
@TimStone As in apples and oranges? :-)
Changeset tracking versus revision tracking
Oh, I see.
6:12 PM
ugh, my model of tracking is so simplistic.
record currentversion before saving with newversion in a timestamped XML entry
in a field attached to the current model item
I've sent you a few emails and got no response. Sorry to bug you here but I really need a response. – Jeff Atwood♦ 28 mins ago
adonde vas?
Q: Users should not be able to undelete answers deleted by a moderator

George StockerUsers should not be able to undelete answers that are deleted by Moderators. I unknowingly undeleted my answer to a question that had been deleted by a moderator. For instance, this answer was deleted by Rebecca, and I wanted to 'vote' to undelete it, not knowing that as the answer owner, I'm ab...

Grace Note== drachenstern?
6:23 PM
@GeorgeStocker NO
I knew it
I agree with the request tho George
Jan 26 at 16:15, by Popular Demand
@TimStone New theory: you are a sockpuppet of Grace Note, who is itself a sockpuppet of rchern.
I think once a mod deletes it unless the user in question is also a mod (yeah right, that's never gonna happen) it can't be undeleted by the user
natch mod > user so the above mentioned circumstance doesn't really need to be codified
SPOILER ALERT: you are all my sockpuppets
6:25 PM
@RebeccaChernoff In that case I question your sanity.
It's not normally like that though; if a mod closes a post 3kers can still reopen, etc. If a mod really needs to block people they can lock the post
@RebeccaChernoff Not me.
> SPOILER ALERT | If you've got Spoiler Disease, STOP READING NOW!!! <?php TRIGGER_DISEASE('spoiler'); ?>
@Nyuszika7H This is simply what I've programmed you to think.
@RebeccaChernoff LOL
@MichaelMrozek I'm not arguing or disagreeing that a group of 3kers can't reopen, I'm saying that a user can't undelete their question/answer if a mod deletes it. I think that is appropriate behavior
6:28 PM
@RebeccaChernoff This explains our love of jQuery
@RebeccaChernoff A wave of bots programmed by you would probably be less mean to you. Unless you subconsciously hate yourself
@RebeccaChernoff You can't program a sockpuppet!!!
@MichaelMrozek notice the question in context is "delete" not "close" and pertains to answers (altho I keep saying question as we know that both are "posts" :p )
@MichaelMrozek Nah, was just part of the decoy. But I've decided to come clean. (:
I kinda wish people would have responded with why they downvoted the feature request.
6:29 PM
@GeorgeStocker need I say it? "Welcome to Meta" :p
but I concur ;)
@drachenstern Yea, I guess I'm just not used to people voting down what I write on Meta.
@drachenstern I know, I'm saying there's no action right now that's normally reversible by users that can't be reversed if a mod performs it. Closing was just an example
@MichaelMrozek ... um ... delete is not reversible is it? Can 10k'ers undelete a post?
zomg wtf people should be shot!!! myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/news/offbeat/…
@drachenstern They can undelete questions, not answers. The point is it doesn't matter if a mod deleted it or not, that doesn't change the functionality
I can undelete my own answer if a moderator deletes it.
6:31 PM
@MichaelMrozek I was not aware of this behavior existing (blame my undesire to achieve 10k)
@GeorgeStocker yeah, that would be the question in .. question .. wouldn't it?
@drachenstern - I did leave. On a train now.
@Moshe bah
On an iPhone now.
@MichaelPetrotta Googling for this led me to a nearly unbelievable Meta Math SE post.
@MichaelMrozek I'm not saying "don't let 10k'ers undelete answers" I'm saying "don't let a single user undelete something a mod deleted"
6:32 PM
  rewriteMind: #["mindData", "puppetOwner"] <
    $_CONSTANTS["mindData"]["I'm a human."] = "I'm a sockpuppet of "$puppetOwner".";
@drachenstern I understand the argument; I'm disagreeing with it :)
@PopularDemand Jeff "harassing" people? :P
  name: 'Sockpuppet Programming'
@MichaelMrozek oh ok
that's different
@MichaelMrozek A wave of bots programmed by her would make far more liberal use of the term "oy."
6:34 PM
@PopularDemand Link!
@MichaelMrozek Indeed!
@PopularDemand No, "oy" is how she knows she's the original, and not a copy
Anyone watching the big think live video with Matt Cutts and the Bing guy (and blekko)? bigthink.com
Q: Threatening emails from Jeff Atwood

Robin ChapmanI just received the following threat in private email from Jeff Atwood. I have no intention of corresponding privately with Mr Atwood, so I reproduce his message here. Mr Atwood starts with a greeting "Hi Robin". His bogus familiarity is neither deserved nor welcome. He accuses me of leaving mu...

It's pretty good. Like The Jersey Shore for geeks.
6:35 PM
@PopularDemand Oh, I already read that. I want new drama
@MichaelPryor Could you compare it to a geekier show? I've never watched Jersey Shore.
Although it's taken on a new degree of comedy now that he's a mod
Drama. The Google guy and the Bing guy do NOT like each other
@MichaelMrozek Please, like she could restrain herself.
@MichaelPryor The Bing dude could be a politician the way he's dancing around answering the actual questions asked.
6:38 PM
@RebeccaChernoff Microsoft has trained him well. I'd watch, but still on call :(
@PopularDemand And I thought Meta got messy.
Today is the first day I knew I could actually reply to a chat message and have it link.
Pretty cool.
I need to spend more time here.
@GeorgeStocker Right?
And now, for another episode of Found while researching an SO question: "I have been trying to implement Reversi (a.k.a. Othello) using Java3D for a final project of my computer lab course, every thing was going well until i got stuck."
@GeorgeStocker and we'll be glad to have you of course ;)
@PopularDemand Please say that was the whole question
@MichaelMrozek Sorry, I cannot tell a lie.
6:45 PM
Sounds extremely inconvenient
@PopularDemand: yep, I remember that one. It made me feel lucky to be on SO, versus some of the other sites. There's some real weirdness going on. Math and physics in particular, I think.
@MichaelMrozek I follow the Costco approach: lies must come packaged at least four at a time.
I'm looking forward to the physics election, there should be good entertainment there
@MichaelPetrotta It's interesting that it's always the extremely academic fields, never the artsier, more accessible stuff. I wonder why.
@drachenstern Glad to have me for what?
6:47 PM
@PopularDemand: autistic folks with poor social skills are drawn to the hard sciences.
@GeorgeStocker "I need to spend more time here."
If I may be frank.
@MichaelPetrotta Hey I'll have you know I don't have poor social skills ... fracker #Joking #BadJokes #IFailAtThis
Q: Does entropy apply to Newton's First Law or does "acted upon" always require an external factor?

drachenstern First law: Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion (constant velocity) unless it is acted upon by an external unbalanced force. This means that in the absence of a non-zero net force, the center of mass of a body either remains at rest, or moves at a constant speed in a straigh...

@drachenstern: hey, at least you used a TV-safe euphemism there.
I'm witnessing a blowup here at work, along similar lines.
Where the nest option, maybe, is just to step back for 15 minutes and let the person in question vent.
Which just encourages him to do it again.
6:50 PM
@MichaelPetrotta then that's not the best option is it? :\
@drachenstern: True. It's the immediate option of least resistance.
But I'm not willing to sign up to be his therapist.
Wait a second, who does he work for? Goes to look it up
I have returned!
There was a tie between @MichaelMrozek and @TimStone's gravatar images for me
I used @TimStone's because it was square
You chose poorly
I will need to redo yours @MichaelMrozek
You can't fix perfection
6:56 PM
however, I have set up two new email addresses, the_mrozeked_exception and the_stoned_exception, so I can change... between, um, wait a minute..
I may want to rethink the email address I set up for @TimStone's gravatar...
Hah :P
but @MichaelMrozek I will switch after I recrop image, later today
@MichaelMrozek Don't worry, you'll be a mod in a couple days, so just tweak his account then.
@MichaelMrozek gravatar.com disagrees with your idea of perfection :-)
Although, it is really stupid that if your image is non-square they force you to crop parts off
@TheRenamedException Then it should be reeducated, or dealt with. (I'm starting to sound alarmingly like a nazi...)
6:58 PM
@MichaelMrozek not a good idea right before the election!
So, again, whats the problem with small edits ??? I thougth being able to edit those small ,but annoying errors was always a great thing......................SE should of allow small edits, bumping or not.lol
Haven't you paid any attention to US politics? It's everyone else's job to call you a nazi!
@badp Probably the worry is: 1) It'll flood the suggestion queue and 2kers will drown in a sea of minor changes, and 2) It'll give people lots of rep for basically nothing
@MichaelMrozek I agree on both counts
@MichaelMrozek actually I was really liking the idea of writing editing bots a la wikipedia, reps or no reps
I now wish Jeff didn't need to attach rep to anonymous edits. It's really turning it into a quite useless feature.
7:01 PM
I like the concept, but it is screwing up a lot of stuff
If I have something major to add, I won't edit for a one shot 2 reps (which you only get if you have less than 2k rep anyway). I'll post a new answer for 10 reps per upvotes.
Thank you very much.
@Nyuszika7H on April 1st you should change your Gravatar to O_o instead of the current ^_^
@TheRenamedException reload!
@Nyuszika7H reloading produced no new effects
7:06 PM
@TheRenamedException press Ctrl+F5
@Nyuszika7H NoNewEffectException
@Nyuszika7H Did you log outand log back in @Nyuszika7H?
Hmm, I've changed my Gravatar.
I is hacking time again :-)
@TheRenamedException nope
Try that
Chat caches gravatars
7:07 PM
@TheRenamedException done
NOW do a Ctrl+F5!
Did you think you can steal my avatar? :P
Hello there Hotlink
@TheRenamedException LOL
@TheRenamedException I can steal yours anytime, try changing it, my image won't change!
@TimStone I love the Oys in the background
This is clearly the best gravatar
7:10 PM
@TheRenamedException Guess again:
@Nyuszika7H Welcome back ^_^
@TheRenamedException Nice. I love that guy.
That was a hysterical episode
7:15 PM
thank you guys from saving us from that serious discussion
@badp my apologies. I lost my head for a moment
14 mins ago, by badp
If I have something major to add, I won't edit for a one shot 2 reps (which you only get if you have less than 2k rep anyway). I'll post a new answer for 10 reps per upvotes.
Please continue
so how'd you guys feel about editing bots?
Absolute travesty
I do not approve
@PopularDemand his complaint aside, he has a point about the enter-button-commits-comment...that's behaviour incongruent with the other edit controls (questions/answers) on the site.
@Kev I didn't read the whole thing; specifically, I missed the comment you're referring to.
7:18 PM
Comment box = chat box = IM box = submit on enter.
@TheRenamedException Please continue
@PopularDemand more wonderful meta posts!
I thought that behavior was weird the first time I saw it, too, but by the third or fourth time I really liked it, and continue to.
It's not like inserting line breaks ever worked.
Might as well remove the need for me to grab my mouse.
Writing novels in comments: UNSUPPORTED
People keep getting bogged down in "is the behavior right or not". It couldn't matter less; it's wrong to spam 10 comments on a post because you don't like how the enter key behaves. It's also wrong to keep doing it after multiple mods ask you not to; when I first saw that behavior I assumed the commenter was 12, and then discovered he's apparently a college professor
7:19 PM
@MichaelMrozek Yeah, heh.
@TimStone - but if comments are throttled, why have that shortcut?
@Kev (un)fortunately HTML lacks support for single line input fields that are supposed to contain articulate thought
@Kev 'Cause my time is valuable ;)
@badp sorry, have another client email issue to address, bbs
@MichaelMrozek - i'm only taking this on face value of that post....and it struck a chord of my own personal annoyance at the comment return key behaviour...
7:22 PM
@Kev Lots of people don't like it, and personally I don't know why they didn't just change it back, it's not particularly useful, but people saying "that behavior sucks, so it's ok for him to abuse it" annoyed me when I read that post originally
@MichaelMrozek - mind you Jeff doesn't help himself sometimes when he's in flippant mode
@MichaelMrozek I also got pretty annoyed by the "It's not the expected behaviour" argument, since I feel like it's really open to interpretation...I was concerned about the other usability issues though, which was in part the fault of the technical implementation..but meh.
I need to take a break. LUNCH
@Nyuszika what character makes backwards posts?
@TimStone - on chat it feels natural to hit return and I expect the message to be sent...because this is chat. comments aren't chat...i still get tripped up by the return key because it's use case is not chat.
7:33 PM
@Moshe I couldn't make that work either
@badp have to ask my boss about how to support this woman, be back soon
In other news! Steam added a shiny new "Press F12 for screenshot" feature to its beta.
@Kev I guess I'm just confused what you expect the enter key to do, because it shouldn't put a newline in something that doesn't actually accept newlines.
user image
Does anyone here have recommendatory about if a hosting provider (me) should support SMTP on port 587?
My client's ISP is filtering port 25
@TimStone then maybe it should just do nothing to remove any doubt...maybe "bing" at you or something
@TimStone but hey ho...I don't feel quite and strongly about it as the boffins over on Maths.SE
7:38 PM
@badp and @MichaelMrozek, since tis is The Tavern and seriousness gets choked out here, should we make a room specifically for discussing this editing issue?
This is the place with ciritcal mass
I don't even know what we're talking about...
@badp OK. I will refrain from distractions as best as I can
Suggested edits, minor edits, reps for edits and oy.
38 mins ago, by badp
If I have something major to add, I won't edit for a one shot 2 reps (which you only get if you have less than 2k rep anyway). I'll post a new answer for 10 reps per upvotes.
7:39 PM
@TheRenamedException It's okay, I wasn't really complaining there
Oh. It's been discussed quite a bit on meta already, I don't think we'll hit on anything new
yeah, I just wanted an executive summary
@MichaelMrozek then I will go back to making the gravatar you made for me square! :-D
@Kev Well, it does have to do something, but telling you newlines aren't accepted in some way is certainly an option. :) Is the problem that you're accidentally hitting the enter key, though? That really never seems to happen to me, so while I can believe it does to other people, it's hard for me to appreciate how much of an issue it actually is. :P
@TimStone - for me it's because in chrome I used to drag the comment box to make it bigger. in the old days hitting return would add a CRLF which was useful for editing the comment and reviewing each individual sentence written rather than it being crammed in a single line. this was before the days when you could edit comments and had to get it right 1st time. I'm still pavlov's dog programmed for that behaviour. but then I am nearly 44 and so old dogs and new tricks etc.... :)
7:48 PM
Ah, fair enough :)
These calls really tire me out yawns
OK @MichaelMrozek, stand by...
Uh oh...
Work just told us to go home before it's too late. Awesome
@MichaelMrozek "too late"?
Before the roads become impassable
7:55 PM
@MichaelMrozek Ah. Nice sunny day here.
This one's not bad either!
@TheRenamedException lmao
I prefer @TimStone's but, now I can swich back and forth
next time @RebeccaChernoff emails me she's going to do a double take, LOL
> wait, his email address is the_mrozek_exception???
7:57 PM
Hah :P
@RebeccaChernoff I have changed my email address on meta to update my gravatar
and it is... unusual.
as if the one you emailed me at yesterday wasn't unusual enough :-)
Did you expect it was a fake email address @RebeccaChernoff? :-)
If I thought it was fake, would I have bothered sending an email to it?
@RebeccaChernoff Point taken :-)
@RebeccaChernoff Ha, I can see it now:
To: the_mrozek_exception@josh.gitlin.name
From: rchernoff@stackexchange.com
Subject: Ha, ha.
Body: Josh, a fake e-mail? Really? Oy, I hate you so much. At least it gives me the opportunity to write this mail to you which you'll never see because it'll never get delivered. Oh, and I'm going to delete your dumb socks and claim balpha did it when you ask me about it. Never come back to Stack Exchange, -Rebecca
8:08 PM
@PopularDemand ROFLMAO, that is GREAT
Oh god why am I not seeing Message could not be delivered; mailbox had permanent fatal errors!?
On the subject @Rebecca and @PopularDemand, anyhing @josh.gitlin.name will be delivered to me ;-)
@Moshe A moment. Sorry, I wasn't there.
Ok. Np.
@Nuuszika so how do you do backwards text?
@Moshe iTunes question coming up, get ready for easy reps!
8:19 PM
@Moshe Alt + + + 202E in Windows. This needs a registry setting.
Q: How do I select a song in a playlist in my library in iTunes 10?

JoshIn iTunes 9 and earlier, I could go to a playlist and hold down option and click the small arrow next to the name of any sony in that playlist to select that song in the main library instead of the playlist. This was very useful, for example if I wanted to remove a song from my library, I could u...

@TheRenamedException Ctrl+Click -> Show In -> Music? I think maybe I'm not following.
I blame this ridiculously long call that refuses to end.
Or Command+Click rather, whatever right click is >_>
@Moshe There's an easier way. Start -> Run -> charmap. Make sure Special view is ticked. Type 202E into the Unicode Code field. Click select, then copy.
@TimStone Control-click is right click
Oh, go me.
8:26 PM
This randomly reminds me that I've lost SSH access to the Mac server at my university, hm..
@TimStone That's it. Answer for the win!
‮This is a backwards message.
Someone blocked the port, probably.
@TheRenamedException Signing up for Apple.SE? Hmm...
LOL. I'm sure someone elsewill grab it, it's an easy one :-)
8:31 PM
@TimStone I'm pretty sure I've started and completed two distinct conference calls in the time you've been on that one.
And one of them had an extra bonus meeting tacked on to the end, so it was more like three.
I hate calls like the one @Tim is stuck on
‮This is right-to-left‭ but this isn't.
@Moshe If you want to know, this is the Left-To-Right Override (202D)
@PopularDemand Some of our meetings start getting off on tangents...heh
@TheRenamedException I caved :P
Ah, but Martín's answer has nice screenshots, heh
You answered first
Havent tested hers yet
Actually, it's weird, because his screenshot shows something different than mine..
8:38 PM
@TimStone hold down option
I mean that the Ping menu on Windows says "Show in iTunes Store"
Instead of library O_o
If you hold down option (maybe alt on window) it changes
That's exactly what I was asking about, namely before it was an arrow which took you to the store, but if you click it while holding option it took you to your library
Ah, I tried that when you said it, but it didn't do anything. Turns out it's Ctrl + Click on Windows, heheh.
but, I accepted your answer because you answered firs, and, I like your method better :-)
They're talking about how to classify the time from this meeting now.
8:42 PM
@TimStone Suggest "annual retreat." Maybe "office telephony stress test."
@PopularDemand HAHA
My boss was like "Put it all under _....Wait no, we talked about bullshit for a bit."
OK, I am about to give up on GD. Why am I using this piece of crap librray anyway?
You like to shake your fist at things?
8:48 PM
shakes fist at GD
You're right, I feel better now!!
I sent \o/ to someone yesterday over AIM and they thought it was obscene =o
I now only use it in chat :-)
@TheRenamedException Face. Palm.
@TheRenamedException ....
He shouldn't have said that he found that obscene
You can probably tag him as a p**n addict now :p
8:51 PM
LOL, probably true
@TheRenamedException Of course it is, that man is drowning
@badp "A person who is drowning does not always wave and call for help. In the final stages, raising the arms and vocalising are even usually impossible due to the instinctive drowning response. The technical term for the situation where a 'drowning' person is capable of waving and calling for help is 'aquatic distress.'" - Wikipedia
Actually, that's horrifying and fascinating @Tim
8:57 PM
Yeah, I decided to be all serious for once, sorry.
Why would someone star badp's comment after Tim and I posted our messages?
Because they ignore you and Tim? :-)
What's horrible is when people down passively, that's nearly impossible to spot when it happens.
(Oh she's going to be pissed at me for @ing her for nor reason...)
goes to unplug his disposal
@PopularDemand Yes, why indeed... >_> <_<
8:59 PM
36 secs ago, by The Renamed Exception
(Oh she's going to be pissed at me for @ing her for nor reason...)
Shocker, I know. :P
@TimStone gee, thanks
you're really helpful @Tim! ;-)

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