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12:00 AM
but that's pretty easy to conform to
@moot enough hype for you?
Anybody interested in giving the Camping proposal the push over the edge?
Backpacking, Hiking, and Camping

Proposed Q&A site for all age groups who love to travel the world with just a backpack to enjoy new exciting places.

Currently in defintion.

Sure :)
According to the stats, it needs only one more on- and off-topic question to go
@Pekka did you mean: ({(,):(,)},)
12:01 AM
@badp haha!
Anybody who hasn't signed up yet and would like to participate, you're welcome
I think I fixed my XMPP server... I can't tell :-)
I've tried to drum up support from the dupe proposals but there isn't much action yet
Home Improvement: a SE beta for 186 days
And @Moshe: If you want a beta-tester, I've got 3 android phones...
@badp yeah, it has some not-so-great numbers
12:04 AM
whoops, I shouldn't have downloaded those ebooks to Dropbox.
@Josh guilt trip successful
Thank you very much @badp
> // Never use Queries like this always use Stored procedures
I think I need more friends. Nobody on my contact list is online, LOL. Nearly everyone I chat with these days is in here!
But new XMPP server works, yey! \o/
12:12 AM
@Josh Just send emails to random people, even if they reply "Who the fuck are you?" you'll become GTalk "friends!"
k shrieker, did I got that right?
@badp My name isn't actually hidden :P
+ I have much worse names for my 6 month old baby.
Hmm, I must have been thinking of Twitter.
What kind of phone company announces they're going to have an already-on-the-market-phone on November 25 "soon" and still doesn't have it 2 months later?
The same one that accidentally leaks the iPhone 4 then never actually gets it I suppose.
so er, there's this new "pending edit" dialog
and in chrome it's not letting me approve it
anyone else having issues?
12:26 AM
@MarkE I guess the experiment is currently off?
@badp er, what experiment?
@waffles has more details.
The everyone can edit experiment?
@mootinator Yeah
i see
that's not so bad
except the functionality is broken in two very problematic ways:
12:29 AM
someone said bugs?
1. it doesn't let me do anything with the edit in chrome (don't know about other browsers)
@MarkE I just approved the 3 in the queue ... this could be a concurrency bug
2. once an edit is proposed, I have to make a decision on that edit and can't ignore the decision to make my own edit
@waffles almost surely it isn't, since after selecting "approve" the edit was not approved even on a page refresh
ALSO ... the UI needs to be improved ... we require two approve votes ... at the moment we do not explain that you need one more approve vote ...
re 2: supporting a 3 way merge is my idea of a personal hell
@waffles Oh I see. Well that explains it. But you see, I can just go ahead an edit posts with my 9.8k of rep
12:31 AM
Why 2 approve votes by the way?
@waffles What if I want to edit the user's edit because it's close?
in the current system, I have to approve, then edit
but that's really one consolidated action, you're causing me a few extra mouse clicks to deal with a mediocre edit
@RebeccaChernoff well Jeff feels strongly about this ... rep may be introduced so we need to avoid collosion
@waffles Is it 2 reject votes too?
@MarkE Mark its not set in stone, we are still experimenting ... for example I think you could possibly twist Jeff's arm to support a one click approve/reject for anon-contributions
@waffles I'm glad I could bring it onto you! :)
12:33 AM
@waffles 2 approve votes by whom?
@waffles not sure how rep for the editor is relevant here...since it is blocking...meh, what Mark said IN THE FUTURE.
@mootinator 1kers last time I heard
because that would be REALLY awful. In the "old" scheme I'd be able to just go in and edit the post; in the new scheme nothing can be done until someone agrees with the current state
its 2 reject votes unless you are a the post owner ... then it is one (also mods get 1 click approve always)
@waffles but I used to get to approve my own edits! and now I can't edit pending an any-user edit being approved/rejected. sigh
12:35 AM
@MarkE 2kers need no approval (last time I heard)
Well that doesn't make 2k less of an interesting milestone, last @badp heard :P
@MarkE ... its a work in progress ... I totally get the problem ... initially I wanted any editor to be able to unblock ... but Jeff feels very strongly about this
Wait, can < 2k approve edits?
Just make a git repo for each post! What can possibly go wrong.
I think you're misunderstanding my gripe:
Step 1. 0k user edits post.
Step 2. I come along, want to edit post, cannot, so vote to accept or reject
Step 3. Wait indefinite time for 2nd person to accept/reject possibly poor-edit
12:36 AM
(Seriously though, the algorithms have all been written)
@RebeccaChernoff 1k get approve votes (deploying that later today) together with ... employee access to the edit suggestion /review route
Q: Is everyone in favor of the new "everyone can edit" idea? Is this really such a good idea?

JoshAs originally requested here and described in Diff is Hard, Let's Go Shopping!: [The team is] planning to open the floodgates and allow everybody to submit content edits on posts Am I the only one who sees this undesirable? In fact, the more I think about it the more I think it has the pos...

@MarkE Step 3b: Flag for moderator attention. Reason: I wanna edit :(
apparently, I haven't been hanging out on meta enough
I support 2 approve votes if they are approvals from < 2k. But requiring someone with the edit prove to now wait for a second approval seems like a step backwards.
12:37 AM
@MarkE I totally get that ... My initial implementation was to allow editors to unblock
@RebeccaChernoff ditto
@MarkE there is no such thing as enough time hanging out on meta :-)
@waffles ok...I understand. practically this limits my (IMHO) positive impact, which is why I'm winging about it.
@RebeccaChernoff bring that up on meta ... Jeff should respond ... I also agree here ... but we are waiting on more data
@Josh Starred for truth.
12:38 AM
@RebeccaChernoff otoh making approvals only for the 1k-2k band only is kind of silly
Can I emphasize that enough? :-)
@badp ??????? I do not understand
@badp only 1k+? where was that said?
1K> infinity reputation get to vote
You suggested 2kers get one click approval, which I agree with. That leaves 1kers with two click approvals, though.
12:40 AM
@waffles, the fact that this takes away the privilege from 2k+ users has been brought up in Josh's question.
I suggest 3k = 1 click approval
So basically, if I'm reading this right, someone with 50k rep wouldn't be able to approve an edit?
No, 3k is closing.
Or be able to go in and just do an edit if there's a pending one?
1 click approval = we can not easily give reputation for edits .... that is the tricky part
12:41 AM
@badp Oh I see. Well then >2k should definitely be 1-click approval
@waffles how do existing 2kers get rep for edits otoh :)
@waffles Why? What aren't I thinking of?
@waffles You get reputation for edits?
@MarkE 2 per approved edit up to 1k, last I heard.
not yet ... no rep for edits yet, but we are going to experiment with it at some point
12:42 AM
wow, I really haven't been hanging out on meta enough
(last I heard = the feature design is not final, this is just how the feature would be like according to the latest published plans)
2kers already get global one click edit approval, why change that? Isn't "more edits" the point?
Well I think a separate topic on meta should be opened that deals with the issue of "blocking" 2k editors ... keep in mind ... this may become a total non-issue cause edits will be approved so fast ... I had a total of 8 in the last few hours ... review is going to be linked on the front page
It's enabled right now @waffles?
it isn't just 2k'ers though. It gets ridiculous if a 50k user can't approve an edit imo.
also on that topic I has 0 bad edits since the morning
12:44 AM
Josh's post already kind of addresses the issue, it's just not well highlighted in his text:
> So, if I understand that correctly, that means that if some low-rep user makes a bad edit, A higher rep user can't correct it until a second higher rep user concurs the first edit was bad?
@waffles ever?
@MarkE my question was a rambling concerned rant :-)
I have not got bad edits ever since I introduced a "required" comment for all edit suggestions
That's awesome
@waffles The problem isn't so much a bad edit, but an incomplete one.
so probably the last 30 or so were good
12:46 AM
Here's a twist. 101 rep guy edits; a 2ker approves ("Sponsors") the edit. The edit goes live immediately but remains on /review. If a second user approves the sponsored edit, the editor gets a +2 and the sponsorer advanced towards a nice sounding badge. If a second user rejects, the sponsor loses 1 rep. Or somesuch.
I just ran into one that fixed most of the issues, but it failed to indent code properly. Rather than get to fix all the problems, I voted and had to return to check the post to see if I could fix the rest
@badp ok, I'm digging this
@badp Ooo. Very nice/extremely fair
Though this means sponsoring is a risky business, because there's always the risk of one bad approver costing you reps.
@badp ... I think a question that deals with blocking of editors needs to be opened on meta ... (with you suggestions as a possible answer) :)
of course there is the practical side that this may never really be an issue ... as edits are going to be dealt with so fast
12:48 AM
eh, designing with SO in mind might be good for scale, but keep in mind the feature will also be live on Bycicles, with far less visits and editors
people will be constantly manning the /review path once its linked from the front page
@badp see ^^^^
@badp yeah. Oh, an edit sponsored by radp? Deny! Deny!
@Pekka There's no need to make the sponsor public tbh
@badp true, good point
Approvers aren't public right now anyway.
12:50 AM
But still..
"This looks like something @radp would approve of. Deny! Deny!"
That said, edit reps sounds like a great way to kickstart a low profile chat bot :P
reputation wise there are a slew of things we can do (firstly we are capping max rep gained from edits to possibly 1000, we can also cap the reputation ratio so only 5-10% ever can come from edits)
@badp heh! :)
It just seems that preventing someone with high rep, eg, Jon Skeet from putting an edit through is, uh, ridiculous? |:
12:52 AM
@RebeccaChernoff didn't the design say that above a certain rep (2k) edits don't need approval?
Then pretend it did.
That it would require 2 approvals. Nothing more. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
@RebeccaChernoff meta question ... Jeff should respond ... I agree ... I proposed that at least 10/20k users get one click approvals if we go with this ...... initially I allowed all editors to unblock
@waffles ... you ... don't seem ... convinced
12:53 AM
Yeah, I thought someone was already working on a meta post? But I don't see why 2k-10/20k wouldn't be allowed.
we gave them the privilege to edit.
If nobody is working on a meta post, I will
Just make sure its focused on this specific problem
Don't make it a "throw the system out, there is an edge case ... post"
please ... for the sake of our children :)
@waffles which is blocking 2kers from editing right? :-)
@waffles I hope you understand my previous question wasn't "throw the system out", it was "I am concerned about this" and your answer helped greatly to assuage my concerns.
12:55 AM
My proposal would be 1-Priveleges.Edit: 2 approvals. Priveleges.Edit+: just approve.
@Josh I'm happy to suggest something
@Josh its fine ... I get why you asked the question ... people want to know what the hell is going on
<me> heads back to editor to work on side-by-side diff ... wikipedia style
Q: Why are users with edit privileges being blocked by users without edit privileges?

Mark ESo it's great that our whole community is now able to provide edit suggestions, but the decision to limit one-click approval status to moderators is causing me some heartburn. Much to my surprise, today I encountered a nearly-good edit, one that I was about to make, and rather than be able to ...

Good post.
@Pekka Thanks, I wanted to make sure my frustration came through but wasn't overwhelming :)
1:06 AM
Yeah, it comes across very calm but still it's still clear enough that there is a flaw in the process.
Sorry, minor kitchen emergency!
No, I did, I was distracted here and didn't stir the split-pea soup often enough!
egads. I need to go to the store to get something for dinner
@MarkE yes good post, +1 & star
1:10 AM
@Josh, just clarifying (;
@RebeccaChernoff :-)
incidentally, I'm glad I didn't keep the original post title of "low rep users edit-blocking me"
@RebeccaChernoff The garbage disposal incident was a major kitchen emergency :-)
ok, off to make salad & eat dinner, catch you guys later!
later! Bon appetit.
is watching kitchen disasters, both on TV and on chat.meta.so
1:17 AM
I (used to?) love that show
maybe i'm getting burnt out on gordon ramsay
Could be.
He seems overexposd.
kitchen disasters != kitchen nightmares?
the british version was much better than the american one
anyway, i'm off to the grocery to find some dinner; then i'll be back to finish my climb to 10k (110 rep to go) :)
@MarkE No, it's ==. It's genetic. Or a man thing. One of the two.
Looking for an opinion...
Get the blue one.
1:20 AM
Is it better to launch an app as a Universal app (both iPad and iPhone) or launch just for iPhone first and then push an update?
I'm serious.
Not sure what Apple would think. Not sure how it would affect sales.
@Moshe Ask @nheagy on twitter, he spends time trying to figure these sorts of things out.
Who is that?
Just someone I know... Who has put a lot of effort tracking app store stats, etc.
1:23 AM
Oh? Nice.
I only mention him because he might actually know offhand.
I will look for him now.
You say you know him, can you ask him, via text/email or or some other communication?
In theory...
I'd appreciate it, but I'm also going to @mention him now.
Did, thanks.
So, @MichaelPetrotta - You around?
is suddenly reminded of how bad he is at keeping people's contact info up to date.
1:29 AM
heh. It happens.
Btw, in my game, Sushi can spoil randomly!
I'm glad that doesn't happen often IRL
@DanGrossman Me too.
Mmm. That may just cause a sushi craving I'll have to sate on Tuesday.
This next question shouldn't be too hard: "B&W or color?"
1:40 AM
Kellogs Smorz Cereal:
@badp edited my question. I feel dirty. ):
@Moshe Yes.
@mootinator - Yes what?
Yes B&W or color.
Right, so that does not answer my question.
@mootinator Let me rephrase it.
Should I launch the app in B&W like the original or add color and ruin the feel?
1:45 AM
I would say color if you think you can improve the feel, B&W otherwise.
@mootinator Ok, B&W it is. I'm saving my color for something else then...
Perhaps the iPad version, which would feel different in any event.
Ah, I'll figure it out.
So, I go to at least send the guy a DM, and find out he isn't even following me anymore... Whoops :P.
@mootinator I mentioned him and followed. I'll see what happens.
Understandable though, I can be an annoying twit sometimes.
@mootinator Heh, we all can be.
1:54 AM
@mootinator Oh, no pun intended.
I want to onebox a tweet but it would probably get flagged...
I hate finishing an app only to realize that I've got to write an instructions section.
@mootinator please don't then. :D
> C_Forrest: Dear IBM. Your jeopardy playing computer "Watson" scares the s*** out of me. F****** Skynet. That's what you are.
wonders if "Color" is a good in-app-purchase
1:56 AM
There, edited :)
S'All good.
Wow, almost done!!!! YES!!!
@mootinator - I was serious. Color might be a good upgrade for a throwback game.
returns from lunch
@Moshe Like Oregon Trail
@TimStone - You have any thoughts on this?
@mootinator Oregon Trail offers color as a throwback upgrade? What platform?
My immediate reaction is no. Once I figure out what you're talking about, maybe, but I'm kind of tired, so probably not then either. :P
2:00 AM
@TimStone Heh
Oh wait, that had color. /facepalm Nevermind.
@mootinator :-D
@TimStone - Two questions.
1)Should an app debut as a Universal app or as iPhone only.
2) It's a throwback game. Should it come in color or B&W?
1) Probably doesn't matter
2) I doubt many people feel nostalgia for lack of colour, so it should be in colour.
Laughs at friends here who can't pronounce the Sushi names
Oops, brb.
2:07 AM
@mootinator Try, "Maki", "Nagiri", "Nare", "Sushizushi", (Okay, I made the last one up.)
philly roll <3
@Josh - How's the breakage going?
@Dan, @moot, Those are all Maki, or rolled sushi.
I'll have the white tuna sashimi. But on rice.
@DanGrossman Definitely
@mootinator smoked salmon is as much sushi as bagels are a delivery device for raw tuna
2:09 AM
Anyhoo, I have to polish off the graphics now. And decide if I'm going to add iPad support in the initial release.
@MarkE Huh?
does indeed enjoy bagels.
@Moshe i'm claiming smoked salmon is not sushi
@MarkE Ah, ok.
though it is mighty tasty
Well, "Sushi" refers to the rice, not the fish. They just often go together.
@MarkE Aha, now you have to look at the edit history for your comment to make sense. Naughty laugh
2:11 AM
@mootinator bah, you suck
@Moshe I think you have too many stars.
I'm not sure.
@MichaelMrozek oo boy
2:13 AM
Okay. sighs
We're not sure he's a spammer.
is off to finish off an exciting release for iOS, which oddly, debuts as version 0.8
that's a nice C++ reference book he seems to be writing
@mootinator I was about to mod flag him, but he really doesn't seem to be; he's just apparently going through a tutorial that's way over his head
SWEngineer seems like an ambitious handle...
2:16 AM
@mootinator oo, nice burn
@mootinator Depending on what fun expansions of the SW acronym we can come up with.
@MarkE At least it isn't CPPCompilerDeveloper.
@TimStone Sea Weed
My theory -- he's some 20+ year senior COBOL developer who's been tasked with writing some image processing code in C++ by his boss. He's spending the week going through C++ tutorials and finding books to read. In the end he'll write it entirely procedurally and it'll work for the limited initial scope of his application, but be impossible for anyone else to maintain and extend.
that' sounds like a pretty good assessment
@MichaelMrozek Yeah, I think that some of the commenters jumped to conclusions. :/
2:23 AM
I also approve of this assessment.
2:47 AM
Sigh... the F/OSS ads... just don't look well designed
Oh, and concerning copyright on Mario, if I drop him (since replacing him is slightly pointless), would the other elements of the ad be generic enough to avoid the current problems?
Alright, let's see... urgh, GIMP's getting the color of the psd file wrong
Oh, right - no support for layer styles. Sigh... gotta restart then
Q: What downvoted questions on SO, or Programmers.SE are fun to look at?

makerofthings7Are there any downvoted questions on Stack Overflow (or Programmers) that are worth looking at for non-meta reasons? I'm posting this subjective question here, rather then the corresponding meta site since I'm interested in humorous, interesting, or off-topic posts that will educate or amuse. ...

@mootinator He's not making seaweed for my game!
2:59 AM
Ho ho hee hee hee
I'm getting a lot of undeserved badges from that question...
Q: TVtime - How to configure and video recording

user567921Hello everyone, set for television viewing tvtime, set up the remote, everything works fine. But I would like to set up an opportunity to put on pause live TV and that you could record video, is there a function in tvtime or may be it needs to install another program?

It's a question about using specific software, totally off topic for SO, and this other guy comes in and adds a bunch of tags including unrelated programming languages
@DanGrossman How did that manage to stay opened? It's getting closed within 2 mins of being bumped
@Moshe ...
Sorry... couldn't resist.
goes back to fix it...
@DanGrossman It sounds from the comment that he misunderstood and thought it was a programming question
3:12 AM
TV programming.
@Moshe Please, don't do that
@YiJiang - I know. I am sorry. Undid it.
Yeah, I was about to roll that back myself..
Having not booted into Windows for a while, this thing is slow as hell now
TrustedInstaller.exe using 99% CPU applying overdue critical updates? :)
3:15 AM
Granted, I was trying to open up Firefox and Photoshop at the same time, while applying the backlog of updates...
@YiJiang is out of stars
But still! Photoshop is now showing a progress bar opening up the F/OSS ad! That's a 220x220 image! Geesh... it can open up giant panoramas with no problem, but this small ad is causing it to slow to a halt...
@Moshe I will grant you exclusive license for my stars in exchange for an iPad.
@YiJiang It probably stopped to weep at how slowly Firefox loaded.
@TimStone It was even slower than Firefox - I opened up both at the same time, and by the time I was here complaining about how slow Windows was, Photoshop loaded
In fairness it did stop to ask me for my Adobe ID thingy, but still...
3:20 AM
@mootinator - haha
is juggling a few conversations, closes the Tavern
3:38 AM
@mootinator That question ended up on meta
How's this?
3:59 AM
Q: How can I generate a list of all Tetrominos?

MarkHow can I generate a list of all Tetrominos?

<--- Migrated to math
That works too.
hehe, my CAPTCHA word was Gödel, with the accent
4:14 AM
I wonder if people are afraid to fix simple typos cause they do not want to trigger wiki mode on posts ...
aww, Jeff closed the edit approval privs question ):
@RebeccaChernoff Yeah...I was a little confused though. So it's impossible to edit if there's an edit pending approval? Or the OP just didn't want to edit while there was an edit pending approval?
> Instead, I had to wait for someone to agree with me (or two people to disagree with me) before I could have positive impact on the question.
Right. Because he couldn't push the edit through himself. Needed a 2nd approval.
But the edit wasn't perfect, so he wanted to approve the edit and then make his own edit.
4:20 AM
So he wasn't prevented from editing, just didn't want to edit the parts that the edit awaiting approval changed, but didn't want to make more changes until those pending changes were made, right?
This conversation proves something is too complicated
@TimStone No. A pending edit is blocking.
@RebeccaChernoff Oh, in that case I completely disagree with Jeff.
It's never too early to discuss something that breaks existing functionality.
I hope I'm understanding/explaining this correctly @waffles...
in JavaScript on Stack Overflow Chat, 50 mins ago, by Anonymous
MY JavaScript is better than all of you! You can't touch what I do. You think you're so great, using your prototype, well I have the DOM, and several hand-made JavaScript libraries to back me up. You talk about how to be cross-platform, yet you can't even support SeaMonkey. Fuck you.
4:29 AM
@ircmaxell Yeah, not sure what that was about..
Sounds like a JS rap battle
WTF man, WTF. I hate when I get support tickets that are newsletters. "You are receiving this newsletter because you have purchased from xyz.com". No, this zendesk.com e-mail address definitely never purchased anything from anybody, I can't even send mail from it myself. You, MY customer, subscribed your entire address book to a mailing list!
shakes head
uh-oh. Unicorn thing is still pinned.
4:53 AM
5:39 AM
Hooray for beta testers. Buying Sushizushi seems to cause a crash.
People expect a lot of effort to answer simple questions here sometimes...
expect or expend?
A: Copy parameters from DbCommand to another DbCommand

mootinatorYou could put the code you need to re-use in a separate method: public DbCommand RecycledParameters(string sql, IList<DbParameter> parameters) { var result = db.GetSqlStringCommand(sql); foreach(DbParameter p in parameters) { db.AddInParameter(result, p.ParameterName,...

I was, of course, assuming they tried cmd2.Parameters = cmd1.Parameters and that didn't work for some reason.
I can see the point of coming up with the "best answer" in some cases.
Sometimes someone just needs a little guidance and the answer isn't going to be very useful to anyone else.
5:56 AM
What's the latest on @drach?

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