enderland

Not to mention, there is more official information about what happened in that news story than on all of SE combined.

Indeed

:-)

@Shog9 da?

you betcha!

@Shog9 :-)

@Shog9 what's wrong with MN :)

Facebook has a growing ability to manipulate and control narratives around a lot of things....

Anyways, it is already after 1am and at this point, a "retired" user having this long of conversation reminiscing about the "good ole days" is probably about as strong of anecdotal evidence to what I said way back at the beginning of this conversation about caring about the mission/vision of SE from ages past being deeply meaningful @Aza ;-)

I have not been an entirely uncontroversial figure in my time on SE @Ramhound

I had many convos over the years with @Shog9 and a few other folks from SE

yup

or maybe, they just stopped liking us/me :-)

you know, years ago, SE used to have CMs that periodically checked in on each mod team and often interacted in our mod chat. perhaps that continues now? I remember that fading off significantly over the years I was a moderator

@Nobody the problem is SE the company keeps saying it isn't but acting as if it is

And in the early days is was

It... should be, yes

I honestly believe that original point underlies nearly all the massive conflicts and drama that has happened in the last years on meta sites @Nobody

and that was even true with the early days of MSE

Keep in mind too though I've been engaged for a long time now, I was pretty active starting in 2012 which was 7+ years ago

I have fond memories of it being effective and useful yes

But at some point, that engagement went to too low a level or the MSE community itself got too big

I don't know if I agree with that - I think that MSE, with CM and other SE employees engaged, could have been highly effective

Or SE left the community

I think that split was fine. but at some point, MSE became a community that didn't include SE

Something I've wondered too is when MSE hit a scale that it wasn't a community the way smaller sites are and became more like SO. Or maybe it still isn't there yet, it certainly feels like it is

there's causation but in online communities, it's a lot more complicated than A-->B

@Aza it is kind of like pushing a boulder off a hill. That boulder bouncing through a small town and wrecking it happens regardless of why the boulder got pushed off a cliff - understanding why a town was built at the base of a hill with tons of boulders at the top can be looked at independent of why someone pushed a boulder off (or if they did, maybe wind blew it. maybe the boulder was improperly secured... etc)

because at this point the facts hardly matter given the perception of things

which is why I've tried to focus on the impact of things, ignoring the truth of the situation

It's also a topic that probably doesn't need rehashing for the thousandth time, either ;-)

@Aza many of those folks are also significant influencers or advocates of the larger, disgruntled "meta folks" (for lack of better category)

@AGirlHasNoName I don't know. I wasn't there, so it's not really my place to judge what was happening there

It is and it isn't. It is, to a much smaller group of folks who had very negative experiences with other people in TL @Aza

that being, people upset with SE as a company vs the CoC issue

there is an entire conversation around "was she toxic herself?" that is a side conversation but in many ways this gets to the split of why people are upset in the first place

@Aza oh, I think, even if things were 100% justified (and as someone who thankfully has never read things there and has no interest to) it just is hypocritical given people there who regularly were toxic and never once got kicked, while someone who was the epitome of Be Nice in all other interactions did

Which if you think about it, while only ~600 moderators are on the network, seeing Monica of all mods get kicked out in spite of knowing how... toxic/disrespectful others in there blatantly were over time (thankfully, I don't remember specific people so I have at least forgotten that aspect) is, well, it really reads as hypocritical to all of those folks

It sounds like that hasn't gotten better

TL felt like a toxic place over a year ago

@Aza I was... not appointed :-) however, I did win in a landslide ;-)

@Aza I do not really know how to respond to this. But some moderators are more interested/willing/time-available to engage with the community on meta/main than others. I was not remotely alone in this from my perspective and I distinctly remember making the argument in TL before around moderators not being just janitors but shapers of community

That feeling of ownership makes a breach of trust feel even more poignant

I think too, the smaller sites result in an increased psychological ownership (as compared with "just" SO) because as a user you can actually influence a site meaningfully

Workplace was the dumping ground for Programmers.SE which started as the dumping ground for SO....

^ yes, this is absolutely my experience on Workplace with her

That may be due to the somewhat uh... tumultuous beginnings to Workplace, where it took a fairly dedicated effort to actually build a community and keep the site around (which by either miracle or sheer force of will, matters)

@Aza I do not agree with that; I have always viewed my role as a moderator as community builder. this does not scale on sites like SO/SF but for the majority of sites it does

I think what bothers me about this too is how blindingly obvious the fallout of all this is to me as someone who has been involved here a while

Which for years now has been the MO of the interactions