Tavern on the Meta

Magisch

2:00 PM

I think meta is fine for such announcements

I just expected better

Somewhat Memorable Name

From someone who has been on Meta SO long enough, those attacks were still considered mild...

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch as did I.

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek It's all pretty petty and without context or not backed up, but still...

Magisch

At least I expected more assumption of good faith in the criticisms

Tim Post

CoGro (CM team, some data scientists, etc) want to blog a more .. open stream of consciousness, sort of what Jeff used to do way back when. But the main blog just isn't the place for it, so we're strongly considering putting a blog 'feature' built into meta SE

Magisch

2:01 PM

sounds like a good idea

especially since it can then be used for any announcements

Journeyman Geek

@TimPost as a critic of the blog in... the intervening time, I like this idea ;)

Tim Post

It shouldn't require many software changes at all, as it fits what we normally do with [discussion] style posts. So I'm going to try it a few times over the next few weeks and see how it goes

Anne Daunted

@TimPost An idea I had - of all the answers, only Catija's is really useful. So why not just have her answer it and then close it?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch heh. I had to take walks a few times today.

Tim Post

@AnneDaunted I'm gonna accept it now that I can :D

Optimus Prime

2:02 PM

I left job last year and started working as an independent security researcher. Mainly bug bounty hunter. But that took me nowhere

Tim Post

Thanks for reminding me

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted cause ironically, there's no really good way to handle people like that.

Magisch

Still it kinda leaves a sour taste in my mouth to have a CM announcement where one of the answers is what can most charitably be described as an involuntary asassination of character

Catija

Hey... my character is just fine. :(

Tinkeringbell

@AnneDaunted Noooooo! My precious rep! :P

Anne Daunted

2:03 PM

It tells us only about their character

Magisch

@Catija Didn't mean it like that :p

Somewhat Memorable Name

Meh, if that post is really only for announcement, then congratulatory answers should also be prevented because it doesn't mean anything.

rene

Just leave a comment ...

Anne Daunted

@SomewhatMemorableName That was kind of the idea I had. Only let the new CM say something.

thesecretmaster

Hello meta-foks with del vote powers, quick question: Why isn't Masked Mans answer deleted? It's not relevant to the announcement, and if it wanted to raise it, he should've used a question on a local meta.

Anne Daunted

2:06 PM

Very good question

Magisch

@AnneDaunted There was an invitation to ask about general stuff

Tim Post

You shoulda seen it when they hired that shog person. Nobody saw that coming and I'm pretty sure at least one person e-mailed Jeff to ask him if he bumped his head (I know this because it was me :P)

4

Magisch

I presume questions to get to know the new CM better

Somewhat Memorable Name

5 hours ago, by Magisch

Imo we should not be deleting criticism

Thorsten S.

@thesecretmaster Because then you will know that SE/SO does not take criticism well.

Magisch

2:07 PM

@TimPost But grumpy shog is legend at this point

rene

@thesecretmaster we don't want to censor too much.

waffles

thesecretmaster

Well, I think he should be allowed to voice his opinion, but that's just the wrong place

Magisch

→ 1 message moved to Chimney No need to invoke godwin's law in the tavern

Tim Post

Everyone that was hired from the community was hired with a bit of controversy, heck even more than a bit in my case and some others, but this is just the first time that enough fell into a funnel to become easily visible.

Anne Daunted

There is a difference between voicing one's opinion and posting slander that is not backed up.

Tinkeringbell

2:09 PM

@AnneDaunted There's enough context there for me to know what they're talking about, but I'm not going to take the bait... and yeah, it's not really very well backed up

Optimus Prime

@Magisch censoring :p

thesecretmaster

I'm also kinda confused because there was a second answer as well, that is now deleted as far as I can tell, which was similar to this one.

Anne Daunted

@thesecretmaster Ask Thorsten S.

Thorsten S.

@Anne Daunted And if Masked Man descriptions fit the bill, what then?

@thesecretmaster Had 3 delete votes.

Anne Daunted

The burden of proof is on the accuser

thesecretmaster

2:11 PM

@ThorstenS. Well, then why doesn't the other one have 3 delete votes? (asking here because y'all have the ability to del vote)

Somewhat Memorable Name

only... 3 (or 4?) of us currently online here have del votes...

Thorsten S.

@thesecretmaster Because people can in fact hear dissenting voices without deleting them on the spot?

@AnneDaunted fine, let's pretend that after evaluation it has merit. What now?

thesecretmaster

@ThorstenS. Sorry, I may not have been clear. I absolutely agree that dissenting voices should not be silenced. But dissent has a place where it belongs, and that place is not there. It's on a local meta (or in an email), at the time the incidents mentioned occurred.

Thorsten S.

@thesecretmaster Many can live with people and accept that there are issues, but still it works kind of a way. If this person is suddenly and unexpectedly promoted, those issues who were unimportant before could now be important.

Somewhat Memorable Name

i'm out, not a good atmosphere for my peace of mind...

Thorsten S.

2:16 PM

I do not run every time to meta: Hey, he hurt me!

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName Drop into tas, we're discussing fashion ;)

Thorsten S.

And I repeated it in the deleted answer: Catija is not the main problem, it is the problem in which direction SE goes...for my opinion which could be wrong.

thesecretmaster

@ThorstenS. That doesn't change anything I've said. If he now sees those past issues as more important, he can go and raise them on a local meta, as a question. If he does that, the other moderators and users who were involved can share their views on the situation and it will more likely be worked out. Here, it's just complaining with no (achievable) goal.

Anne Daunted

The main problem is not critique - critique is fine. But there was no critique, just hearsay and slander. And neither is in any way constructive.

Journeyman Geek

@ThorstenS. and one of the things that Catija and the team she's in is meant to do is to engage with users, and hopefully shape that direction.

rene

2:20 PM

@ThorstenS. If it is the direction of SE that bothers you shouldn't that be the topic of a new discussion, instead of piggy back on the announcement of a new CM?

thesecretmaster

@SomewhatMemorableName Sorry if that's my fault, I'll walk away if you'd like. I don't mean to start a conflict in a room I don't usually frequent.

Shadow Wizard

@OptimusPrime probably bribe

Journeyman Geek

@thesecretmaster its been going on all day in multiple rooms.

Shadow Wizard

(i.e. money will go to their private pocket)

Journeyman Geek

and yeah, if you have a problem the right place is a meta post on its own

rene

2:22 PM

Does anyone know if there is a FR out there to add the code: search option to /help/searching? I recall I had seen that before but searching [sic] for it doesn't return anything useful. I ask because of this (maybe @ShadowWizard or @Sonic)

Thorsten S.

@thesecretmaster So the thread of introducing Catija is only for congratulations?

And every other complaint should be an own question on meta?

Journeyman Geek

@ThorstenS. imagine you had a new job. Your boss was interoducing you

and there's this guy in the back of the meeting room heckling you.

Shadow Wizard

@ThorstenS. IMO negative feedback is also legit, though maybe with not as much details as you posted.

Tinkeringbell

@ThorstenS. Well, Anne actually made a good point: congratulations aren't really an answer to the questions in that post either :P

Journeyman Geek

This is what these posts are like.

thesecretmaster

2:24 PM

@ThorstenS. Well, really it's just an announcement. Any substantive issue or suggestion should be a different post. The congrats posts don't really suggest anything or ask for any changes, so I don't mind them.

Thorsten S.

@ShadowWizard So I can be accused of slander because not providing details? :/

Shadow Wizard

17

Q: Add code search syntax to search tips

After Search just code we now have a way to search code, so something like code:"-->" searches for the infamous --> "operator". (Protip: it's not an operator, it's two) Could this be added to the Search Tips page so it's discoverable? On Stack Overflow it's extremely helpful, and I only just hea...

HDE 226868

@ThorstenS. Apologies if I sound like a broken record here, but my understanding was that there were three points to the meta thread: 1) Introducing Catija to the network, 2) Letting people ask questions of Catija about herself as it pertains to SE, and 3) Maybe starting constructive discussions about the future. It's that last one that I didn't - and still don't - see present in either of the two answers currently under discussion.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Considering MSE is "The Meta with rep", congrats posts are a tool of farming rep...

HDE 226868

> Questions about the stuff she's going to be working on, or questions in general? Let us know, she and our CM team will answer 'em!

^ There's that.

Tinkeringbell

2:26 PM

@SomewhatMemorableName Yay :D

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName I debated CWing my post :(

Magisch

I get the point about congratulary posts bein clutter

I deleted mine just now

Thorsten S.

@ThorstenS Did you apologize for claiming that I told the untruth about being kicked out?

thesecretmaster

Can someone sanity-check me here? Is this comment about me, and would I be stupid to invite him to chat to clarify that I'm being genuine?

rene

@ShadowWizard thanks ... somehow already upvoted so I did see it before ...

Magisch

2:27 PM

Not because I don't want to congratulate, but because it'S been seen by now and doesn't need to be by everyone

Tinkeringbell

@thesecretmaster Yes, that's about the edit you made I guess, and something with now deleted comments... Honestly, I'd just stop feeding it attention

You're not going to change each others minds... let the voting speak for itself ;)

Anne Daunted

@thesecretmaster I agree with Tingeringbell. There are probably better ways to spend one's time

thesecretmaster

sigh I guess so. I'm gonna go do real life stuff then. Thanks!

Tinkeringbell

@thesecretmaster I know how hard it can be, I've been biting my tongue for hours now and it's always easier to say it than do it... Good luck!

Fun life stuff? :)

Shadow Wizard

@ThorstenS. you can probably write something like "I don't like the decision to make [name here] part of the team, for details contact me in chat".

Somewhat Memorable Name

2:30 PM

Apparently my message got starred...

2

Not that I'm opposed to anything at all, but...

Journeyman Geek

@ThorstenS. erm... you just replied to yourself.

Thorsten S.

@JourneymanGeek Ah, I meant HDE 226868

rene

@ShadowWizard second bounty added to that question: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/146546/…

Somewhat Memorable Name

never mind... letting stream of consciousness before sleeping looks questionable...

HDE 226868

@ThorstenS. I am very much not interested in discussing that, since the conversation about it went nowhere. As I said, I'd like to move forward. I'm incredibly excited about this new initiative and what we're going to get to do with individual sites on the network. I don't want to get bogged down in stuff that's going nowhere.

Journeyman Geek

2:34 PM

@HDE226868 I'm actually kinda curious to where its going to lead

HDE 226868

I'm super happy to talk about that.

Journeyman Geek

Juan did mention that the team was eventually going to get bigger

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek Any predictions yet?

Shadow Wizard

@rene another 100 rep bites the dust... ;)

Journeyman Geek

@HDE226868 Its a step in the right direction

but ~~this isn't even their final form~~ the exact shape of things is to be seen

I think they made a good choice, and the 'general' trajectory of the CM team seems a bit happier

Thorsten S.

2:36 PM

@HDE226868 Translation: I don't want to apologize to you for claiming that you are telling the untruth. I do not want to go "forward" with people I cannot trust.

Somewhat Memorable Name

I'd assume the answers would be used for (constructively) asking the future plan of CoGro/CM, while the congratulation would just go to upvoting Catija's answer.

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName that's the thing

The new 'team' is distinct from co-gro - unless they get merged.

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek I'm secretly hoping we can talk about things like site promotion and userbase growth - gnat's HNQ suggestion isn't a bad one.

Somewhat Memorable Name

But I know I don't live in an ideal world...

HDE 226868

Well, maybe now it's not so secret. :P

Journeyman Geek

2:37 PM

@HDE226868 yup

Tinkeringbell

@HDE226868 Oh... it would be so nice to not have 5/6 hnq questions all the time!

Journeyman Geek

@HDE226868 also, I do want to see the CM team growing.

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek That would be great.

I imagine they've all got a whole lot to do.

Journeyman Geek

@HDE226868 selfish reasons aside - they've shrunk a lot, and I've seen a few mentions of burnout

HDE 226868

Increased CM visibility to the ~~normal~~ non-mod population would be awesome.

Shadow Wizard

2:40 PM

@ThorstenS. so don't go forward with her... but her past actions are known and well, in the past. You said your part, others might agree or disagree. Think it's time to move on. :)

Journeyman Geek

@HDE226868 quite

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek That's definitely true.

Thorsten S.

@JourneymanGeek If you have real apprehensions that SE is going down, what exactly am I supposed to do? I do not want to talk about someone behind it's back. At least my answer can be dissected and I get the blame.

Downvotes, deletion and so on.

Sigh.

Journeyman Geek

@ThorstenS. I believe you're talking to @ShadowWizard?

@HDE226868 I don't think it would work exactly as it did before but yes, that's a start.

Thorsten S.

No, it was an answer about heckling in a firm.

Journeyman Geek

2:44 PM

@ThorstenS. You wait till its over, and you find the right time to talk to the right people. Cause in real life, if you were that guy, you'd probably find yourself escorted out the door with a box.

Thorsten S.

Firm != SE.

Journeyman Geek

AT this point, I'm going to step away from this conversation cause I really don't want to say something I may or may not regret later.

Thorsten S.

@JourneymanGeek No problem. No, I am not the guy in real life, believe it or not.

Journeyman Geek

@HDE226868 I'm kinda secretly hoping its like a bit more organised version of CHAOS

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek Ooooh, I wasn't around for that (maybe the very very very tail end?), but it sounded cool, from what I've picked up secondhand.

Journeyman Geek

2:52 PM

@HDE226868 it was a very large team of folks unfamiliar with SE - they got assigned new sites at first

then transitioned to CMs

well 5 people?

HDE 226868

(Most of what I know comes from blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/09/welcome-chaos and meta.stackexchange.com/q/257699/274942)

Journeyman Geek

yup

and aarthi would pop into root access sometimes

we vaguely share a cultural background ;p

HDE 226868

It sounds like it was a fairly helpful resource.

Journeyman Geek

It was

It wasn't meant to be long term apparently

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek Also, I see what you did there.

Journeyman Geek

2:56 PM

@HDE226868 ... took your time ;)

HDE 226868

Certainly. :-)

Journeyman Geek

But more seriously - that they have many of the same goals

team at full size will be smaller - but it isn't going to be a handful of essentially internish people.

HDE 226868

Community development from inside the communities, in a sense? At a more local level.

Journeyman Geek

@HDE226868 well, also in the sense that most folks who apply(ed) for the CM role are likely to be at least a familiar with the broader SE(O) culture

HDE 226868

Ah, right, right.

Journeyman Geek

2:59 PM

but ya, basically folks tasked to help newer sites find their feet, and grow

HDE 226868

That's a really good thing.

Journeyman Geek

and a few older ones get back on their feet I suppose.

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek as far as I understand, @Catija didn't apply for the job, but the other way around, SE reached to her first. No?

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard naw

Shadow Wizard

(might be wrong of course)

Journeyman Geek

3:00 PM

bunch of folks applied

Shadow Wizard

oh

You too?

Journeyman Geek

Ya

shrug

Isn't my time yet?

Shadow Wizard

Better luck next time! :)

Journeyman Geek

I hope so too

rene

If they reached out then why wasn't I contacted? Tell me!

Journeyman Geek

3:01 PM

I actually would have had a bit of an interesting time had I gotten to the interview stage or the job. My current contract has a early termination clause.

Catija

@ShadowWizard Not at all. :) No one reached out to me. I saw the plethora of tweets with the job postings but that's just because I follow people on Twitter.

Shadow Wizard

@rene flowers can't be CM, one wind and they're gone. ;)

rene

I'll grow better roots ...

Shadow Wizard

@Catija oh well.. :D

Journeyman Geek

anyway, @Catija is a great pick, and I'm annoyed at her haters ;)

Shadow Wizard

3:05 PM

@rene but your petals will still be gone with a strong wind.... ;)

rene

Don't focus on my weak spots ....

If I only could focus myself ...

Journeyman Geek

just turn towards the sun?

Shadow Wizard

If anyone willing to undo/reverse their downvote... answer rewritten from scratch:

-18

A: Welcome Stack Overflow Valued Associate #599, Catherine Kuck AKA Catija!

Note: I rewrote this answer from scratch to be more constructive. Meta-commentary about the previous version is towards the end. Congratulations to Catija on joining the Stack Overflow team. While I have crossed swords with her in the past a number of times, I look forward to working with he...

Journeyman Geek

mh

Maybe in the morning ;)

I've had a day.

Shadow Wizard

@rene but that's all the fun.... :D

Shog9

3:08 PM

I've spent entirely too much time on that answer already.

Glad to see it revised though.

Shadow Wizard

Time for better things!

Here's something my daughter did today, and reminded me of @Derpy of course....

rene

@ShadowWizard it's .... oriented weirdly ...

but I believe it is expected we encourage young artists... that is a nice background

Magisch

@ShadowWizard not gonna lie, that's already better then I draw

Journeyman Geek

@rene or it has an appropriate number of corns

Tinkeringbell

@Shog9 Maybe spent 10 more second deleting the comments again?

Journeyman Geek

3:19 PM

🌽

Kevin B

hmmmm

Shog9

on a call, will look later.

rene

@JourneymanGeek that will do as well

Magisch

I actually dont find it that bad

face looks cute, generally not drawn poorly I feel

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard Love the extra leg :)

(Or is it a male unicorn? )

Journeyman Geek

3:24 PM

:p

Or it's a pentapodal unicorn

Kevin B

does fallout have unicorns?

John Dvorak

It's a DLC

Tinkeringbell

Zoo tycoon had unicorns :)

John Dvorak

The smile is actually a pair of thin but durable tusks, primarily used to lure unsuspecting prey.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@ShadowWizard I see unicorn, I upvote (or star, or... whatever...)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

3:46 PM

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/313142/…

canon

@Shog9 did built-in-search ever get its overhaul?

Shog9

sorta ongoing

we may or may not be running tests on changes right now

if not, soon

canon

soon™ or soon? :P

Shog9

like, there's stuff that folks have been working on, I just don't know off-hand whether they've rolled it out yet or not

canon

ah

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

3:52 PM

15 hours ago, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 With regards to this question I proposed for the Developer Survey, you previously said you had no comment. Does your position still stand?

@Shog9 ^^

Shog9

kinda feel like it's the wrong question

but don't feel strongly

some tangential discussion here:

Jun 20 at 20:19, by Shog9

A former co-worker summed it up roughly like this...

canon

curators, 4th class untouchables

Shadow Wizard

@rene blame my phone... and Windows 10 for not having a simple way to rotate... ;)

rene

@ShadowWizard I blame you for still not knowing how to properly operate your phone....

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Are downvoted suggestions also considered? My suggestion has a -1 score, but 15 people have upvoted it.

Shadow Wizard

4:00 PM

lol

@SomewhatMemorableName thanks!

@Magisch no worry, me too! ;)

@Tinkeringbell sharp eyes.... will ask her why the extra leg.... :D

canon

oh, look

not enough rep to view deleted answers on meta.SE

womp womp

rene

4:16 PM

@canon you better get cracking then ...

canon

rather not make a career out of politics or sanitation just to participate in meta

but I'll occasionally bitch about it ;)

rene

That is enough fun ;)

canon

hah

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shadow FYI I retracted my close vote on that question.

Tinkeringbell

5:57 PM

@ShadowWizard Let me know the explanation you got please :)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in body: Error on update by Andyn Dan on superuser.com

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

6:25 PM

@rene I should point your attention again to my post on how to get attention for unaddressed meta requests. In it, I state that a bounty isn't a good way to get official attention for requests, which is an opinion also held by @Shadow. Tim Post said in a linked answer there that it's often better to just contact them.

Shadow Wizard

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog thanks!

@Tinkeringbell well... when I asked her she only smiled and didn't want to answer, which means... she just did it by mistake. Probably. :D

(hard for kids to admit mistakes... ;))

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog it still feels good, as in "Well, I'll do my best". So while I don't have any faith bounty will do anything, I still rarely do it on MSE.

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard Awww... :( Which means she'll be drawing a new unicorn tomorrow, with 4 legs, but 3 eyes? :P

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell lol... less likely... it happens when she gets distracted while drawing, but extra eye will require some really big distraction... :D

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm just as stubborn as you ...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

6:40 PM

@rene Your statement in the bounty stated that you would keep burning rep for as long as it takes. I'm just telling you, that's not necessary; in fact, those words come from Tim Post, not me.

rene

I thank you for sharing your concerns about my rep. That is appreciated. And if it helps, I was joking a bit in that bounty message. I'm sure I'll give up on it when this one ran out.

The chain of events this afternoon was amusing for me. I answered an MSO question, came here to ask where that FR was, found it due to ShadowWizard, saw my upvote on it, update my MSO answer to ask people to support the FR a bit, went back to put a bounty on it and at that moment I wondered why I had to offer 100 rep. Only then I realized I bountied it earlier. That are the moments I have the most fun on SE. I cherish them. I don't care about the rep.

Mithrandir

6:58 PM

Complaint about SO Google results: Most of the answers just give a code block with barely any explanation as to how this works and what it does. Completely not helpful for me to understand how I'd adapt that to my situation.

Kevin B

If only people would use their votes to say that

Mithrandir

"this has 200 votes, it might help" [...] "...nope, can't understand this."

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shadow This comment of yours is no longer needed.

Mithrandir

I don't normally code; I'm just trying to work on an issue with a chatbot I use and taking it as an opportunity to learn something. But... this stuff apparently isn't written for people at my level.

rene

> We are currently working on removing support, but it won't be done today.

I'm pretty sure they wait for Adam Lear to return from holiday ....

thesecretmaster

7:06 PM

@Mithrandir Which one?

Mithrandir

@thesecretmaster github.com/ffao/Shiro

i'm running a local version in my office

thesecretmaster

What are you trying to figure out? Maybe I can help

Mithrandir

a better way to do this:

in Mith's Desk on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 31 mins ago, by Mithrandir

@cooldown(10)
def ping():
    room.send_message( " ".join('@'+x for x in PING_NAMES[:10]) )
    if PING_NAMES >10:
       room.send_message( " ".join('@'+x for x in PING_NAMES[10:20]) )
    if PING_NAMES >20:
       room.send_message( " ".join('@'+x for x in PING_NAMES[20:]) )

I need to send the list in groups of ten

thesecretmaster

So, basically, you need to split your list into smaller lists of 10 elements, then for each sublist send the pings. The hard part there is splitting the big list into sublists. Is that where you're stuck?

Mithrandir

7:22 PM

That's the first part where I'm stuck.

thesecretmaster

Ok. So, what have you tried that's gotten closest to working?

(I could also give you the answer if you like, but I assume you're trying to learn something)

Mithrandir

Not much :P I've looked into splitting it into chunks but couldn't find anything understandable

...on the other hand, I'm physically and kinda mentally exhausted now, and I need to sleep, so... I should just try again in the morning. Thanks, though

thesecretmaster

Ok. Feel free to ping me if you want help at any point :) G'night!

Mithrandir

:)

Shadow Wizard

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog kabong

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog there was someone who spent like 5000 rep on something (10 bounties of 500) and eventually it was done. Though not sure it was due to the bounties, but still...

Optimus Prime

7:39 PM

Not bribe. I guess

Still I don't have money.

Reported 2 vulns to google. If they reward any bounty, problem solved.

But I believe they won't. From experience.

Optimus Prime

8:27 PM

checked one of my old google plus account and saw this