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12:05 AM
@Catija it's the least earstabby
@Dragonrage don't think so
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog loaded means the question implies the answer
 
@Shog9 So it's an XY problem?
Also, could you please look at this question?
 
12:30 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog kind of, yeah. An effective answer likely has to dispute the premise of the question in order to be accurate. This takes extra time, but also holds the risk of turning answering into a combative experience; if the asker is invested in their evaluation of the situation, they may not be happy with an answer that substitutes a different evaluation.
 
@Shog9 Can you please clarify your last sentence?
 
Ok... To use your question as an example: we've discussed and researched this particular threshold quite a bit over the years. However... Whether 50 is an effective threshold depends a lot on the base assumptions.
For example: if you consider noise-reduction a worthy goal, then limiting the ability of most participants to post comments consisting of "thanks" "me too" etc is worth some sort of threshold. If you don't consider that a worthy goal, then any threshold > 1 will be pointless.
Same applies to any of the other uses / abuses of comments
thus, these discussions tend to founder, because no amount of data will resolve a question if it is approached by participants with conflicting goals
Now... You'll note that none of that actually answers your question.
If I was to answer, I'd have to write something like that, because otherwise I would be dishonest in my response
But, if you're determined to get an answer to your literal question, you'd remain unsatisfied by such a response.
The literal answer is something like, "the threshold only matters once we've agreed on a set of valid uses for comments, at which point we can identify the reputation at which those uses completely dominate misuses"
And of course, I can present data for that... But now consider your clarification to the base question - the bit to which I said "this turns it into a loaded question"
both of those options are simultaneously true and untrue
or to put it bluntly: while neither are entirely false, both are inaccurate.
No one has bothered to change it (except on some sites where we have bothered to change it)
a study with data was conducted, but the decision wasn't made because we couldn't agree on a base set of goals
if this starts to sound like not a very useful answer... I concur.
As with most of the privilege thresholds on SO/SE, the actual numbers are fairly arbitrary; their validity is connected in how they relate to other numbers: the ability of new users to earn reputation, the values of other thresholds, etc.
 
12:47 AM
@Shog9 All of that seems like a good answer to the question. I'm glad to know that at least an attempt was made to answer it.
Can you please explain possible reasons for downvoting the question I linked above?
His last activity since June 22, 2017.
Also his last activity here since being de-modded.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:40 AM
Ahh I did some testing today and is it true that the rss feeds are updated only every 2 minutes?
 
@Unitato might make sense
most RSS feed readers check every... 15?
 
I setup an interval to fetch feed data every one second, but it only registers a change every two minutes, omitting several of the questions posted in between
 
also shouldn't yoy be using the API for that?
 
No the api doesn't make much sense to me tbh
I'm using nodejs
And it's npm package is rather poor
And yup, I got more feed results, and they are all exactly 2 minutes apart
 
 
2 hours later…
4:32 AM
wondering about changing name to something like "Reddit Forever" or "Quora is the best"...
 
4:46 AM
5 messages moved to Chimney
morning
 
Rob
Morning. Congrats on RO here, @Magisch (Why was that trashed?)
 
@Rob What was trashed?
The messages I just moved was housekeeping (smokey messages get moved when they're no longer relevant to keep the transcript clean)
 
Rob
Nope, not those. The message from feeds where you were added as a room owner
 
That wasn't trashed.
rene also added me in the chimney
 
Rob
Oh, bleh. Yeah, my bad :)
 
4:52 AM
Need that to be able to move
 
5:29 AM
@Rob There's someone else you have to congratulate
 
Catija is our new CM \o/
 
Rob
5:45 AM
Yeah, already did :)
 
6:23 AM
Catija being the new CM is sort of the best case scenario I hoped for
Means we get someone who has extensive experience and good standing with a lot of the community already
 
6:46 AM
@Magisch that is now deletable /cc @ShadowWizard @Glorfindel @Bart @JourneymanGeek
 
I coulda sworn @rene said @Magisch was deletable ;p
 
har
 
hence my edit ...
 
@rene kaboom
 
\i/
 
6:48 AM
/!\ Warning: road closure ahead /!\
 
7:03 AM
Here's another one that needs a little push
 
@Glorfindel dev? developer? ;)
 
summoning @Nick
@Glorfindel kaboosh
 
gracias
 
Congratulations @Catija
 
7:47 AM
I'm bound to write a low quality answer so I can complete collecting all bronze badges on MSE. Or I should wait till WinterBash, it might earn me a hat!
 
what bronze badge does writing a low quality answer get you?
Peer Pressure?
and there's a handful of 'impossible' badges for a good user
like unsung hero
 
@JourneymanGeek check ... :(
 
@Magisch quite, and is pretty darned engaged/visible.
 
@JourneymanGeek yeah, it is unlikely I'll be able to snatch that one
 
7:52 AM
@JourneymanGeek The CM team situation has been looking up nicely lately
 
@Magisch ehh. Slightly
I can't say that much more but Its a start?
 
while they certainly had a lot of strong applicants its great to get someone we already know to be sane and knowledgeable
 
oooh. Now I do the thing I keep saying I hate I do ;)
 
:p
 
@Magisch IMO - they've kinda gotten the short end of the stick in terms of numbers, they've lost a few CMs and a lot more than is obvious.
On the bright side, a lot of 'side' projects seem to be seen as 'side' projects.
 
7:54 AM
Had that feel too somehow
I think once the whole CoC thing settles down (it should, the second draft is a lot less controversial then the first imo) we can start expecting some real improvements
 
I mean, a few are probably in places they're happy in, or at least cheerfully grumpy
 
Which will be nice
 
Actually? The CoC, and presumably what triggered it, and the internal conversations that must have happened, as someone still sitting with his nose to the glass are probably an extremely positive start.
 
I'm at least happy that people are coming to terms with it and some of the latent distrust has been curbed a bit
 
(and tbh, even the ... restructuring - kind of helped refocus the company again)
@Magisch practically speaking - without a ton of change in how SE runs things, a CoC is primarily a tool we can use, and something we can point people at, over, well...
a massive change in the way we "do business" on the sites.
 
7:58 AM
I don't expect it to have a big impact tbh
 
In a sense, a well run segement of the community already has folk running around handling bruised egos, trying to get people to play nice...
and not just mods
 
Most of what is then considered unacceptable already was
 
Maybe the biggest achievment will be sinking the breadth of it a bit more into people's minds
 
Well, in a sense, we primarily 'need' the CoC when people are... not nice, and won't be reasoned to.
 
8:00 AM
It also might serve as a "look, we're getting rid of these" to outsiders. We've gotten rid of these before, but the internal SE processes are somewhat arcane and unvisible to newcomers
 
and the 'structure' of SE means we actually can/should file off the prickly bits of interpersonal interactions when they happen...
 
20K data meta.stackexchange.com/questions/313072/… /cc @ShadowWizard @JourneymanGeek @Bart @Glorfindel
 
For instance, there's no way to see what exactly happened after you flag outside of if something was deleted.
 
ohhh man
@Magisch well yes and no
 
6 messages moved to Chimney
 
8:01 AM
I don't count the flag summary as discoverable to newcomers
 
I don't even look at that lol
 
To even know it exists you either need a flag ban warning or to somehow know that the "X helpful flags" link in your profile is clickable
 
but ugh, I'm old, jaded, and don't care about badges ;)
ah. That's a thing
I quite literally consider flags 'now' to be a "someone should look at it"
I didn't when I was a newbie, lol
 
"this shouldn't be here, someone make it go away"
 
These days I track my flags but that's because I don't really flag mundane things usually
 
8:03 AM
@rene kabong
 
@rene we can't do this on sandbox? because of CW?
 
@Mithrandir ... not one of my favourite reasons to flag ...
 
@JourneymanGeek But for e.g. comments that is what they're for.
 
@SomewhatMemorableName peer pressure 'fairly' is easy.
Unsung hero is not
 
Unsung hero is a weird case
 
8:04 AM
@Mithrandir comments are whole different tin of artistically rotten fish
 
You need to be good but not too good to get it
 
@Mithrandir I'd happily delete comments that are no longer needed
I was thinking more of users who try to use that as a "I'd like to get this deleted a little more quickly"
when its not yanno
spam, offensive, or some joker posting a selfie.
 
I use post flags these days usually exclusively as a prompt for a mod to investigate something
e.g maximum moderator time wasting potential (if you were to be unkind in describing it)
 
Which is fine/encouraged
(and lol I do that a lot.)
@Magisch if it was easy, it would be mechanical/automated
I do admit, there's some messes worse than others but you need a mod in cause its complex, and requires time, and hopefully tact and a little bit of diplomacy.
IE "we're human exception handlers"
 
Or you need a mod because a user can't resolve it, e.g serial voting, (to a lesser extent) plagiarism, full on voting rings
 
8:08 AM
and we throw the ones we can't handle up to the CMs
ehhh. 2 of those, we need a CM for
 
as a regular user I have no tools to deal with any of that
 
Serial Voting - is automatically handled, and we don't even see it unless a user complains.
 
@JourneymanGeek Not always. Mods can destroy sockpuppets
 
Voting Rings - I suck at. One of my fellow mods is a lot better.
 
And the script handling it automatically is really conservative, so a lot slips through the cracks
 
8:10 AM
hah, you know about the whole thing on AU right?
 
hm?
 
Shog used a slightly less concervative script...
reputation for a few users dropped massively
 
I'm not a user of AU, I focus my efforts on SO mostly
 
but... here's the thing though
what was the gain? Its fairer, and surprisingly no one ragequit
 
on smaller sites detecting that stuff from aggregate data becomes really unreliable
 
8:11 AM
but to me, the big thing is content quality
if a crap post is getting a ton of upvotes, its fishy
 
mmmyyyy cccccccccccooodeee iiiiiiiiiiis ccccccompppppilinnngggg
 
We obviously don't want to encourage people to cheat
 
lllloooollllllll mmyyyy ppppppppppppccccccccc.............
 
but at the same time, unless its a massive number of targetted votes... err....
What's the gain from being super super focused on it?
 
@JourneymanGeek In my experience and from what it looks like on the outside people serial vote a) to prevent a post ban b) to inflate their scores to get more answers c) to inflate their scores to build a public profile they can apply to places with d) to promote their company e) to gain the association bonus easily
 
8:12 AM
I don't grok B
I grok A
 
more question upvotes -> more answers
 
I've never had luck with C
 
at least that's the idea
 
I don't want to say its silly but... I don't quite get that logic
 
some universities drill this into students that a successful online presence e.g lots of SO rep is important to being employable
 
8:13 AM
or e. meh. I had trouble keeping a low rep sock ;)
 
Sometimes the profs even make it an assignment "gain 2000 rep on SO this semester"
 
*facepalm*
 
hah.
I think we saw that happen once...
a lot of kids probably failed.
 
We got told about it once.
 
But...
 
8:14 AM
I'm pretty sure it happened hundreds of times
 
they got educated
 
The Google Code-In this year had an assignment to write an Ask Ubuntu answer.
 
And I'm a big enough person to not say "They got schooled"
 
encouraging your students to participate in and of itself isn't a bad idea but if you make it a requirement they're gonna come up with creative ways to make that less of a grind
 
Well...
If you wanted to do that, they should probably link some of Jon's blog posts and get them to write about the experience ;)
 
8:38 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, blacklisted user: Can I use a header tag in footer inside section? by user309744 on codereview.SE
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, blacklisted user: SEO Keyword Counter by user309744 on codereview.SE
 
Re: profs making an assignment to farming reps on SO, we should educate them that they're going to make their students' experience on SO feel bad (and, of course, unwelcoming!)
since SE participation should be based on voluntary action, not forced task -_-
 
Wait. I'm not forced to do this?
 
@rene You are. You have responsibilities now ;)
 
Oh ... I stepped up, right? My mother warned me for that ...
 
8:54 AM
Moms... never listen to them :P
 
@Tinkeringbell You too got trapped here, though
 
Lol
Happens a fair bit to me
 
ja.so announced the original English draft of CoC v2 on their meta, and
a user on pt.so is curious about what user suspension means, posted on their meta
 
...so is that going to be translated? Hmm.
 
9:10 AM
not sure about that... that meta post seems only work as a signpost to the draft and MSE post for feedback collection.
Hopefully it would be translated to participating localized SE languages
 
Probably a question for Juan or @JNat.
 
ooh, that will be vaguely tricky
 
@Magisch It's punishment :P It's the only way they could make me behave :P
 
@Tinkeringbell Now you can't annoy the mods anymore, because you are one.
The ultimate long con
 
I can still annoy other sites mods :P
So it kinda failed miserably
 
9:14 AM
Be careful with the volume or you might get another diamond thrown at you
 
@Magisch Oh don't worry. You can certainly annoy the mods after becoming one... just ask the IPS or SFF mods ;)
*cough* I'm annoying *cough*
 
lol
I've annoyed mods a few times on other sites
 
@Glorfindel I don't mind you use my old canned comment but do know I edited it a tiny bit to get rid of some rough edges, just FYI:
I'm not sure which search brought you here but the problem you describe will not be answered on this specific site. To get an answer from users that have the expertise about the topic of your question you'll have to find and then re-post on the [proper site](https://stackexchange.com/sites). Check [How do I ask a good question](https://meta.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask) and [What is on topic](https://meta.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic) on the target site to make sure your post is in good shape. Your question is definitely off-topic on Meta and is better deleted here.
 
that reminds me of our beloved annoying kat...
 
@Magisch Ehhh. I don't hang around on enough other sites to be annoying enough to be considered for that XD
MSE is nice with regard to that. I can be as annoying as I want without any chance of getting another diamond XD
 
9:23 AM
@Tinkeringbell not.. entirely... true...
 
All those posts are meant to be annoying? You tell me now?
 
Also, I half suspect you've got a slightly better chance of becoming a mod pro tem if CMs know you're "good people"
 
"good people"
 
@JourneymanGeek Huh... I still don't get why they picked me then :P
 
Glad I'm a flower ...
 
9:24 AM
well, we just had someone who will get a diamond on MSE, right? :p
 
and very practically speaking, an existing mod or CM can, in theory torpedo a nomination
 
torpedo??? oh, I missed a comma
 
or support it, which I rather have they don't
 
@rene "all those"... I think I posted 6? things?
 
@JourneymanGeek I think that's 95% of the process right there
Might just be a discussion among CM's ala "who's sane"
 
9:25 AM
@Magisch well, I'm speculating
 
You probably know more about it then I do
 
@Tinkeringbell yes ... just 6 annoys me ;)
 
the alternative is ... throwing darts?
@Magisch I know precisely nothing about how it works ;)
 
@rene Oh no, it's 7 :) We're good XD
 
lol
 
9:26 AM
(Or is that even worse :P)
@Magisch I'd have never described myself as 'sane' :P
 
don't make it 13
 
Someday I will, just to annoy you
 
subscribes to post feed of specific user
 
@JourneymanGeek My guess was that most of that debating happens in the TL, but I guess not
Or it does and you're obligated not to disclose
 
@Magisch I can't talk about what is talked about on TL. I have no idea if I can talk about what dosen't happen on TL.
 
9:29 AM
I thought TL is.... quiet?
 
@JourneymanGeek the double negative canary trick :P
I'll drop that thread of conversation, no need to make anyone uncomfortable
 
@SomewhatMemorableName if it was quiet, there's nothing to reveal.
@Magisch well, I've often said that on SE most sites run autonomously
 
maybe my mind played a trick on me when I remembered someone complaining that mods on TL aren't always responsive, or there are some sites whose mods are not on TL
 
Now that you confirmed there is a TL I guess we have to kill you?
 
9:31 AM
(...*mods* on TL? seems redundant)
 
@Magisch outside what a somewhat respected or high rep user has, I have no real 'say' on how other sites run
 
soft power counts for a lot here, I feel
 
@Magisch well, same as meta I suppose
 
Bit more then meta, tbh
 
eh, not really
 
9:33 AM
so it's like Tavern, but mods only
 
lol
I... guess?
 
TL on the Meta~
 
lol
Well, for one, I REALLY miss having unlimited edits here
 
Just barge in, blurt out what's on your mind, leave.
 
@rene good idea. I'm using this now:
 
9:35 AM
Welcome to Teacher Lounge on the Meta.
 
I'm not sure which search brought you here but the problem you describe will not be answered on this specific site. To get an answer from users that have the expertise about the topic of your question you'll have to find and then re-post on the [proper site](stackexchange.com/sites). Check [How do I ask a good question](meta.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask) and [What is on topic](meta.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic) on the *target* site to make sure your post is in good shape. Your question is definitely off-topic on [Meta](/help/whats-meta) and is better deleted 
 
If you think about it, everything works the same way - SE's primarily a knowedge sharing/management resource
 
I like to include a link to /help/whats-meta.
 
From my observation the real motivators of change here are when the right people complain
 
@Glorfindel great! stealing it copy-ing it
 
9:36 AM
@Magisch often. Sometimes its the wrong people too!
But there's many different ways for an effective complaint
For example - sometimes it works really well to pick the right person and put in a quiet word
 
The power dynamics of SE are completly different as on any other online community I've ever been a part of
 
Other times, you just go for the ankles.
 
Here's a silly idea: posts below +10 score give no reputation.
 
@Dukeling where?
 
Everywhere.
 
9:38 AM
and that makes getting rep nearly impossible
 
Hold on, lemme grok some data on that
 
@Dukeling, Yeah and Re-open clear vote history.
 
@Dukeling What would be the goal here?
@DragandDrop in theory, a re-calculation is expensive but not impossibly expensive
 
The point would be to kill all those typo-type questions that have no future value by discouraging answers.
 
eh, while penalising the slightly obscure but interesting posts at the same time?
 
9:41 AM
Pretty much, that's why it's a silly idea. Fun to fantasize about though.
 
@Magisch actually, It reminds me of smaller communities I've been in
 
Downvote on answer is the solution for that. User will use upvote as a ping to communicate. Upvote became an Ack on those low quality Q/A.
 
@Dukeling in theory, if there's literally no value in them, clsoing against a CFAQ or just closing would work
 
But, then again, the users who like low quality questions will probably just proceed to upvote each other even more to make this change pointless.
@JourneymanGeek I do try to close them, but it's an exercise in futility. We need a system change.
 
@Mithrandir I'm not sure; @JuanM might be better suited to answer that ;)
 
9:47 AM
@Dukeling From a really quick & dirty query you'd have killled off the reputation effectiveness of just about half of all casted votes
As for how much actual reputation you killed off it would be way more then half, since repcap plays into high scoring posts more then low scoring posts.
 
@Magisch Yeah, it will probably make people too unhappy to do now, but if you did it from the start...
 
Perhaps the old tool is enought. We just need out scale the upvoters by downvoters, enought to make them hit -1+.
 
@Dukeling On some smaller sites you'd probably eliminate >90% of all reps
 
heh
I'd loose a good chunk of my meta rep ;)
 
@Magisch Reputation is just imaginary internet points... Dividing everything by 10 doesn't change anything.
 
9:52 AM
@Dukeling also, what about cases when someone's got... say
+10 -1?
@Dukeling which people take seriously.
@Dukeling you are not dividing by 10 though
you're wiping out reputation for any post with an under +10 score
 
@JourneymanGeek I honestly think on some sites, that'd be a good thing
 
I'm assuming it will also change the voting culture a lot. That might make it work, but it would be hard to judge how exactly it would change.
 
It'd be a major disincentive to answer anywhere but on the most viral questions
 
@Tinkeringbell Well, yes and no
^
 
I've gotten +100 for mediocre answers and +2 for ones I put a lot of work in
 
9:54 AM
Not all highly upvoted answers are great
 
I'm generally happy as long as I get some acknowledgement
 
and some answers don't always get the love they should
 
It would also cause people to massively game the HNQ effect
Anything else would be uneconomical if you wanted to gain rep
 
Well, it would give some way to discern between people answering everything and people who carefully look if a question is a good fit for a site
 
closevotes!
I mean, I
 
9:57 AM
@JourneymanGeek They don't prevent answers on some sites ;)
 
@Tinkeringbell about 5.5 pages of my 105 pages of answers on SU are +10...
 
You'd also have wiped all reputation gain Jon Skeet obtained from 26736 of his posts.
 
@Magisch If you have most people just straight-up ignoring questions that don't look useful because there's no rep to be gained there, that might give enough attention to more average questions and push up their scores. But ... perfect world and all that.
 
@Dukeling question is really, are we going to inconvininece users in good faith more than folks who just answer anything?
 
@JourneymanGeek I have about 2,5 page of answers on IPS, and about 1 that's still below 10. I wouldn't mind not having that rep if that's what it takes to get people to actually write great answers ;)
 
10:01 AM
@Tinkeringbell on the other hand
251
A: My cat sat on my laptop, now the right side of my keyboard types the wrong characters

AibobotThat's the standard tenkeyless Num Lock key layout found on many PCs. Turn off Num Lock - on my Lenovo, it's Fn + F10, but the combination may vary by manufacturer.

I got 100+ on an early revision that I posted on an office computer right before leaving work.
That got a lot of attention cause of social mediaish things
 
10:14 AM
@JourneymanGeek If you answer in good faith, your primary motivator is not reputation.
I'd much rather have low reputation on a site where reputation is actually hard to get than high reputation on a site where all you really need is some basic knowledge, the ability to read and type fast and time.
 
I have... 5 answers with 10+... out of 175...
I'd prefer abusing edit suggestion suggesting many edits then
 
Not saying the top users don't have mad skills, but you can also get there by only picking the low-hanging fruit (which I did for a while).
 
or by accident... looking at my SU rep
 
10:50 AM
@JourneymanGeek Oh sure, not saying it'll solve anything. But it's fun to think about ;)
 
My highest-scoring answer was a low-effort throwaway on a language that I never use.
 
My highest scoring answer on SO is explaining what a float is vs a double in C
The explaination wasn't even entirely correct until i got comments pointing it out
 
My next-highest was to an arguably off-topic Q: too broad.
 
You know how much skill went into that: stackoverflow.com/questions/33163772/…
 
@Magisch lol: 'a float is like a double, only smaller'?
 
10:54 AM
2 minutes of google by a guy with less then 5 weeks of development experience in total
 
@Magisch I guess that, sometimes, we just get lucky. Makes up for all those times when you give a comprehensive, useful answer and get nothing.
 
@MartinJames exactly
and tbh
on MSE the answers I'm proudest of are often heavily downvoted ;)
 
Want to try your luck? Post any questions or answers on Stack Exchange!!!
 
@JourneymanGeek That's brings us back to being annoying? :P
 
@Tinkeringbell naw
more that folks were passionate about it and disagreed
 
10:57 AM
@JourneymanGeek Naam adres woonplaats? :P
 
naw = no
;p
 
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, the 'if they're shooting at you, you must be doing something right'
 
(I still read that as the Dutch version of name, adress, city where you live)... naw-gegevens are PII :P
 
@MartinJames well and that the right thing might not be popular
 
@JourneymanGeek Yep - it never is when you are outnumbered by the opposition:(
 
10:59 AM
@MartinJames The specific problem was casting of float literals. Like you'd get double-rounding when dong float f = (float) 99.32 but not when doing float f = 99.32f
 
But there are those who opine honestly and considerately, and those who are just vocal and abrasive...
 
@MartinJames is there an opposition though?
 

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