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12:08 AM
morning @TelKitty
@SterlingArcher love it!
@YvetteColomb morning :)
12:33 AM
@TelKitty @YvetteColomb How likely is it that a peacock will do this? youtube.com/watch?v=Nf86LLun21k
12:56 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Yeah, I used to have a rooster that I gave to a friend on a farm because it's illegal to keep roosters at where I live. She gave it back to me a few months later because the rooster chased her nephew and caused him to fall, he had a few stitches because of the fall. Fowls can be aggressive. I would not be surprised if peacock is the same.
1:10 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I don't know how likely, I do know people often misread animal communications. The peacock was telling them to get lost. He opened his wings in a sign of aggression to say "move on" and the parents weren't sensible enough to tell the kids to move away and give him space. I'm so strict with my horses and people get upset with me sometimes, I try to warn people, what can seem cute may be a warning and if a horse turns and kicks you, they can inflict serious damage - or even kill a person
@TelKitty I have a research scholarship for one year approved in principle
Peacocks are also ultra territorial and big enough to hurt
@TelKitty ikr.. applying for a Master of Philosophy - then will apply for PhD - so it's exciting to get a scholarship - takes the pressure of working
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog hey - post a question on Pets.se and @jour you can answer it!!
1:17 AM
Peacocks aren't pets :p
well - actually I've known people who've kept them as pets
and you know I'm always "community building" on my pet pets site (bad pun intended)
@JourneymanGeek they can be, I was almost tempted to buy one before ... they are not particularly expensive
@TelKitty maybe they're more popular in Australia?
as pets I mean
2:28 AM
I've no idea what's the stance on sports, but tonight the Vegas Knights made history (yet again) by winning the second rounds of playoffs. I'm very, very hyped.
2:40 AM
2:51 AM
@YvetteColomb thank you!
2 hours later…
4:36 AM
@YvetteColomb In my local San Diego Zoo, they let peafowl roam free throughout the zoo. Is this a good or bad idea in your opinion?
Eh. I'm not sure what would be wrong in using that as a team opportunity
What? Peacocks roaming free?
Teaching. Ugh autocucumbered.
Naw the suggested closevote
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Get featured image on Blog Index by yesporn on wordpress.SE
\o morn
4:48 AM
If you get attacked by a peacock because you refuse to respect its body language it'll probably teach you a valuable lesson that will also pay off in human interaction.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Minecraft pe commands by Ni Jin on gaming.SE
@YvetteColomb Why are you calling @JourneymanGeek a day?
"jour" is French for "day"
5:31 AM
@AdamLear It shows in the edit history of this post that you removed CW status from it. However, the post still shows as CW on the question page. Why is that?
Same goes for the question: it shows as CW on the question page but there's an edit history item that says CW status was removed: meta.stackexchange.com/q/16054/377214
5:51 AM
Hmm...it seems like Pops and samthebrand were allowed to retain their moderator privileges on Area 51...see area51.meta.stackexchange.com/users?tab=moderators
extreme caching?
@JourneymanGeek You mean hoarding?
My canned comment for off-topic questions reduces work, because about 10-15% of these questions get voluntarily deleted after I post it
It is easier on them if they self delete
Or if they read. Reading is key.
5:58 AM
All that said, you've given me some interesting insight into a distressing phenomenon where lots of new users somehow get the idea that experienced users routinely close- or down-vote questions just because they don't personally know the answer. — Nathan Tuggy 34 mins ago
He is just discovering this?
@TravisJ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Grief - best to have them move straight to the Acceptance stage.
Also, with regards to that question in particular... the SO question associated with that complaint had both marc_s and Gordon Linoff look at it. Assuming they don't know the answer is not an option.
That would be like assuming the earth is flat.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog heh
as someone observed. I hate canned comments ;p
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog until someone complains its impolite
Angrily or sadly complaining though? Like, are we at step 2 or 4?
The main problem with canned comments is that so many people get them wrong.
That so many users use canned comments just makes it obvious there should be more provided by SE itself, and that custom ones should perhaps not be allowed.
I think the specific one you used in that situation is okay @Sonic, but I have seen a lot of really bad ones.
6:23 AM
@TravisJ even the SE provided ones...
have issues
like when you get 3-4 identical or near identical comments off review
Can I get some feedback/do a shameless plug on a MSO post?
Ugh, yeah...the review comments. Or worse, when review gets it wrong and uses a canned comment.
I have already read all mSO posts. I will reread though, which one?
6:24 AM
A: Recourse for inappropriate Stack Overflow chat conversation

Journeyman GeekLong time room owner, chat user and SU mod here (and if It is who I think it is - I actually had a talk with Anil over twitter over the subject). I'm pondering a longer post on MSE where it belongs but I'd like to bring up a few points. In my experience, effective chat moderation is about buildi...

Sorry its so long
but ugh, I don't like the narrative people are trying to put in place
We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the worlds been turning
@JourneymanGeek I think the "straight to twitter" is why ultimately nothing useful will come of it
The community was and feels bypassed. If anything people are going to be less accomodating out of pure spite
Maybe we get some better chat moderation tools out of it, though
@SurajRao @user5389107 true
but I don't think "victim blaming" will win us any friends
"pure spite" is kinda the real enemy? ;p
I'm not happy with this development at all
@JourneymanGeek The problem is when you treat people like the enemy, they'll act the part
6:30 AM
Its happened
@user5389107 why?
I mean, sure they will
That's the "pure spite" part
I wonder whether key SE people are now feeling retarded because of the backlash from community
but what's wrong with trying to encourage folks to actually take the high road?
@JourneymanGeek 6 minutes ago? Okay, you got me, I hadn't read that yet. I am rather familiar with that room though, I was an RO there for a few days a loong time ago, but really I am happy that my name isn't associated with the content regularly in there.
@JourneymanGeek Nothing, but in these matters, tone is everything
You can either get someone on board or react negatively out of pure spite to the same situation just depending on the tone you take when reacting
6:32 AM
I would call it 'drama of SE' and would not take it seriously
@TelKitty See here's the thing. Folk are going to feel more smug if we arn't inconveniently sensible.
@JourneymanGeek - To be honest, there is nothing you can say that will influence that room.
@JourneymanGeek users aren't retarded
@TravisJ I'm not trying to influence that room
So, I commend your effort, but I hope you don't expect results :D
6:32 AM
So... here's the impresssion I get.
@TravisJ I'm basically picking apart the narrative that chat is a lawless wasteland that needs to burn
Yeah, I saw that. But, the sad truth is that SO chat is regulated in the first and second level by users who have such thick skins that they are never offended. None of the normal flagging paths work, and the talk it out usually just means passive aggressive dismissal.
heh. Maybe things work better for us on SE?
or do I just have really nice fellow chat users.
Oh yeah, way different ball game.
There is a palpable sense of intensity in the SO chat rooms. At least, in the main ones.
And that is on a normal quiet day, without all this other stuff going on.
Now I need to think very hard: whether to continue this conversation in regards to the drama or should I go out to buy items needed to make a better track for the autonomous (toy) car ...
Also, I've been on chat so long I think people panic if I'm not around
@TelKitty the latter ;p
the conversation will likely go on a while
6:37 AM
I think I have been too much of a cheapskate and this slowed down my progress (mail delivery for cheap components etc)
hah lol
I can relate
@JourneymanGeek that's what I am going to do then :D
@JourneymanGeek Picking apart a narrative, once supported by the company, is very difficult to do
Best of luck to you
@JourneymanGeek - In general, chat moderation has 1) social responses, 2) RO actions (kickmute/move message), 3) message flagging, 4) custom mod flag, 5) main site flag on a post, 6) contact us email. That is it. As far as 1 goes at SO, as noted above. 2 is often not agreed upon by everyone, and causes bickering between RO's, especially if a user is being prevented from chatting.
3) sends a bat signal to anyone in SO chat that is 10k to come and try at #1 again, but this never helps, moreover, the flag is almost always declined. 4) Enter an actual mod with a message like "cool down" and some minor hand waving... it is just chat after all who really cares? 5) it never gets past mod, 6) I have never seen it get to this from my experience evar.
As an RO at Stack Overflow, your hands are tied. Not only do you have limited tools, but no one has the time to understand the context of the history from what happened. The lack of understanding leads to very easy dismissal from not only mods but other RO's and especially users from other rooms who really aren't terribly interested and mostly came for the popcorn.
There are real conversations about content that take place, but since those are so few and far between, the material that fills in the gaps can be quite crude. The level of how crude it gets is seemingly an art form between not looking terrible enough to get banned while just pushing the boundary of "wtf".
I am honestly not convinced there is a solution to this problem without radical changes to the design of chat moderation.
(waiting Travis J to finish the stream of thought...)
6:48 AM
(done, thanks though) :P
This is about SO isn't it.
> it is critical to the long term health of the project that we preserve an inclusive community.
of any project imo
This is one of the ways it can end though
While students of the 80's and 90's may have been primarily White men, that is no longer the case. A next generation of wonderful people are entering programming, and since programming in general has gained wild popularity in the past decade, they are coming from all walks of life. Turning a blind eye towards that is just asking for failure.
6:57 AM
SE can't expect to be pushing an ideology (good or bad is up to inviduals to decide) and not lose people who don't follow that
It isn't just SE.
It is congress. It is parliament. It is small. It is large. The idea of being less toxic is a movement, not a blog post by Jay.
Before home computers became widespread, CS used to attract both men and women equally.
Many of these women went on to change the history of CS, e.g. Admiral Grace Hopper.
@TravisJ SE chose to bring itself into it
Well maybe it wasn't entirely voluntary
SE has 4 million users.
The outcome is the same. If you take an ideological stance, you'll alienate everyone who doesn't share it.
7:01 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Not to say there weren't many very important women in CS history, there were. Ada is one of my favorites personally. However, I wouldn't exactly call it historically equal. You would need to some heavily lifting to convince me of that.
In this debate there's no room at all for "agree to disagree" it's "accept it or get out"
@user5389107 Be nice is a fundamental part of the site. If "agree to disagree" means violating the "be nice" agreement, then whose responsible?
@TravisJ The debate isn't about "Be nice" itself. Nobody argues for a right to be purposely hurtful to people
It's about what is considered as "un-nice" and people disagree fiercely on that
So it is about the line between almost violating the be nice policy, and actually violating the be nice policy?
@TravisJ People don't percieve it that way
This is why this conversation is flat out impossible to have on the internet, nobody agrees on the premises
7:08 AM
...we don't have to hash out disagreements.
All we have to do is find where everyone agrees.
There are plenty of people who agree on the premise that building a community requires being inclusive.
On not being rude or belittling.
@TravisJ Right but plenty =/= all
One of the things SE has consciously accepted means that a part of the community will be leaving over this
wow, didn't expect that response.
So there is disagreement in the community, that being inclusive helps build community?
I'm not arguing either way personally I'm in favor of more inclusitivty
7:09 AM
sample convo^
where is rude?
And as a result, they are leaving? I mean, that isn't on us. That is on them.
@TravisJ Have you ever had this discussion anywhere online?
The mere mention of inclusivity poisons the discussion utterly
Person A: We should bring in Matt.
Person B: F that, if Matt comes in I am leaving.
Who is in the wrong here?
context dependant
If matt is the coworker who never does anything and spreads misery to every office he goes then person B might be in the right
Man, there is so many things wrong with that assumption.
7:12 AM
Which is why I said context dependant
I don't even think there is any point in discussing this topic with you.
@TravisJ I would be person B if matt is a well known fascist
Am I in the wrong there?
You can't be inclusive to everyone. Certain people and spheres of interest are incompatible with each other.
@SurajRao That looks like two people who don't primarily speak English being rather curt towards each other. I wouldn't go full blown rude, but neither one should be called polite.
@SurajRao An example why having bad tone to your useful and well meaning comment can make all the difference in how it'S percieved
@user5389107 how would one show a bad tone in comments without actually hearing the tone? It becomes more of perception of the listener and their mindset
7:20 AM
@SurajRao Partially, but you can help that perception by being a bit outwardly friendly and not using accusatory language
Sample: "Yes, and my issue is just that it closes to early for no understandable reason" The primary way to find this out is by using a debugger - it lets you step through your code instruction by instruction and you can easily find the breaking point using that. The majority of dev work is actually fixing issues with complicated causes, so a debugger is an essential tool for any developer to utilize"
Maybe to a degree this is a factor. But, these people should really learn to take criticism
What newcomers "should do" is unhelpful
We have next to no influence on the state of mind of newcomers, but we have complete control over our own responses. If you can steer someone to positive behavior with little effort, where's the harm?
If you approach the situation from the "what is fair" angle you'll end up in despair in this world. The only thing you can really control in any given moment is your own response, and sometimes, even (to you) trivial changes in tone can have drastic influence on the outcome. So if you want a new user to react positively and take criticism into account, one of the best ways to do that is to appear friendly
I think that's the essence of why SE is asking the regulars to change instead of new users - the regulars SE has some control over, new users it doesn't even a little
7:35 AM
That's kinda what I'm working towards
@TravisJ ITT reading back to it - That was not a commentary about the SE context - I was purely nitpicking your theorethical scenario there Travis
Maybe that came across poorly
alright... Sometimes it feels like yanking teeth trying to deal with them. But I guess it would be a test for SOers as communicators .
@TravisJ utterly no disagreement there
good discussion @user5389107
@TravisJ eh, kinda odd that I feel main chat works differently
but most time we have external mod intervention, I had a chat later
I guess we have more mods?
7:41 AM
@user5389107 The bonus is that if the newcomer still continuously uses an attacking/rude tone even though you're being polite in the entire conversation, it is easier to see that any further conversation is pointless. That makes it easier for me to emotionally distance myself from any rude/nasty conversation.
I've also considered chat moderation a long term project. And I'm and oldschool IRC person
@Discretelizard Pretty much that being nice, polite and in control lets us let folk who want to cause trouble spend themselves out
or to put it another way
@JourneymanGeek I fail to parse this sentence. Could you rephrase it?
@Discretelizard think it should read send themselves out
@SurajRao It's more the 'lets us let' part that confuses me.
@Discretelizard I'm so firmly in the "I can modulate my response and nothing else" camp because I've learned that the really hard way
7:49 AM
@JourneymanGeek I'm flagging this as "user is bulling @bjb568"..... ok, sorry, just joking.
I'm not a natural when it comes to social interactions, so I used to get really frustrated when I meant well and people didn't take it that way
While in reality I was probably just acting like a giant jerk a lot of the time
@JourneymanGeek This is really effective against people who want to cause trouble because you're beating them at their own game and they'll be bored and miserable and leave if noone falls for the bait
...meta2.mp3 - there is an audio cue when you click on an user? was that added recently? Guess I'll have to add a noScript rule to kill this prompt.
ah, ok, it is part of the script used for the message notification alert.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog yep got that lol. it was a lazy mouse/keyboard situation LOL
@yve I'm curious, where are you keeping all these horses?
Do you have a ranch?
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I think it's a great idea. Many zoos will let birds run free
8:02 AM
@user5389107 I rent someone's land. There's quite a few acres.
@YvetteColomb I sometimes see peacocks enter enclosures for flamingos and other animals
Being chased across the zoo by an emu eager to get what's in that feeding bag you're holding is one of my fondest memorys
There's a zoo with free roaming animals you can feed near me it's amazing
I thought you are generally discouraged from feeding zoo animals?
They sell feed bags at the zoo
You can only use those
@user5389107 I was traveling in Mahabaleshwar, India, in a place where there were a lot of monkeys, who were skilled at stealing sweet snacks from tourists by scaring them. One stole a sealed tin with snacks, but was unable to open it and just left it.
8:05 AM
So the zoo itself is free but you can buy $1 feed bags to feed to the animals
a pelican grabbed my son's entire arm when he was 5 to take his chip
at a zoo
I used to use most of my allowance there everytime I went
@user5389107 aw that's so sweet
are you Mags?
8:06 AM
curse your generci username
@user5389107 quite!
hey the foals are going really well and my mare is still pregnant
1.98 horse
8:09 AM
I was talking to a uni lecturer while I was at the paddock, he asked how many I had I said 6.95 possibly 6.98
Or... OR... We could do the Twitter thing and only notify you about your "likes" if you haven't visited the site in a while. ENGAGEMENT! FUNNELS! CALLS TO ACTION! ...sorry, lost my head there for a moment. No, we should absolutely not notify you about any of this crap. — Shog9 ♦ May 1 at 21:23
My money's on yes
@user5389107 @Derpy Nope, just Shog being Shog.
I wonder if shog's inner monologue is a standup comedy routine
I would pay money to see a standup comedy routine by shog is what I'm saying
@Derpy I cannot read minds (Although some think I believe I can. At least they cannot read minds), but the situation seems to be: constant bickering over the blog-post and then there's this one, who manages to get an entirely new thing from the blog-post to argue about. Given this context, I think Shog's behaviour is understandable.
If it's not sarcasm it's still well done and entertaining
8:49 AM
@Discretelizard meh, i think it's worth pointing out if they mentioned it
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Is it? From reading Shog's posts, I generally see 2 modes: 1) nice and polite Shog 2) angry Shog. While I don't know if Shog allows actual emotions to dictate posts, Shog does come off as irritated or annoyed at times.
I've never seen him actually aggressive just firm and sometimes angry
@Discretelizard He does. There are several examples of both types in my conversations with him.
@user5389107 Is angry better?
@Discretelizard yes
8:52 AM
ime, there are three states of shog: 1.) polite 2.) pissed off 3.) drunk
(to be taken not entirely seriously)
@Mithrandir Oh, I don't mean it shouldn't be pointed out. Just that it is a situation where I could imaging myself to be pissed off.
In a 'not this again' way.
But well, as I said, I cannot read minds.
...hmm, so apparently WHERE UPPER(Text) LIKE cute matches duplicate and execute too
@Mithrandir concluding with the quantum state of shog: you don't know if he's angry, but when you observe the state (i.E provoke a response) his response changes to angry
@Mithrandir WHERE UPPER(Text) LIKE '% cute%'
Mind the space before the after the %
my point is that the post was about the "include / exclude thanks in post", something that has come up as an argument multiple times in the past, with people claiming that is part of the "unwelcome aura" SE has.
That reply somehow has the vibes of "They included that in the post I don't agree but otherwise the kids will go cry on twitter. But again I state, that it probably just me,
@user5389107 danke
this isn't getting very many sexist comments, but it is getting some odd stuff like this:
I know this isn't helpful but your little prairie dogs are so cute and I want to squeeze them — user4343502 Mar 31 at 20:42
9:00 AM
@Mithrandir just someone fawning over avatar pictures, I suppose
I must say the prairie dog avatar picture is quite nice :)
@Mithrandir The comic in that question looks nice. Needs a bit of inking, but the concepts are visualised well.
9:23 AM
I see you too have unlocked the fun from using sql to search so comments
@Mithrandir vtc too broad
and ancient too
@user5389107 wait... you two started a rude comment burination crusade and didn't invite me?
using extremely rudimentary keyword search in SEDE hardly qualifies, but alas
@Derpy that's uncouth ;p
talk about self deprecating
this is slightly depressing
Can we refrain from posting all the stuff we rather see to be deleted? If you want to collect examples of stuff to flag do so in a secret gist or so that you can update and/or share without being a possible flag target here.
@rene Sure. Feel free to remove it.
(not blue here, can't remove my own stuff... jarring)
The only benefit for sharing it here would be if you want a second opinion which is OK of course. Still prefer not have it one-boxed, just a link if relevant
9:48 AM
Can we chimney it for now?
@JourneymanGeek yeah let's do that /cc @Catija @hichris123
15 messages moved to Chimney
stupid vpn
1 hour later…
11:01 AM
@Mithrandir probably because some of us (and others) have done that and hunted (read: flagged) those comments...
even though it made less visible data for public, it's for the best of us... and mods/SE staffs should still be able to log those comments this as proof
@rene @JourneymanGeek do old messages need to be pruned too? I remember some...
(good, another hidden feature: searching "quote" on chat returned all messages with quote block)
Translated it looks like spam. I've watched the domain just in case
@PrincessLuna thanks
11:43 AM
.... Hello Neighbor has a "musical" version. ARGH.
12:05 PM
@hey if you have stuff that you want us to look at, share a link (careful with one-boxing if you do)
@rene I'm pretty sure I asked people not to let bad comments one-box on Friday... so I'm good with that.
Yeah, better warn an extra time
Maybe we need to write a decent short message that we can PIN?
Potentially Interesting Notification?
@Catija I remember you asking me, yes.
I remember this and this. Feel free to purge this message after "no longer needed" :)
12:09 PM
@rene That would work.
afk, on mobile..
Please refrain from posting flaggable comment content in here, either in plain text or one-boxes. Links are fine but we don't need a permanent record of the not nice stuff we find in comments long after they've been deleted.
@Catija awesome, thanks
@PrincessLuna I don't know what to think about that game. To me, it seems another good idea executed very poorly. The latest leaks about the final "secret" ending do only reinforce this idea.
12:20 PM
I just like the song :D
I got it. I just meant that the plot of that game doesn't seem to make sense at all IMHO, so I am not surprised if someone made a music video that shows the situation from the neighbor point of view.
A first I've seen: an author of a blatantly off-topic question edits their question into a completely different, still blatantly off-topic question: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309954/…
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog definitely sarcasm right?
This is common enough on SO to have its own term
@user5389107 But it's rare to happen on Meta.
@user5389107 No, I'm (nearly) always literal.
No, it's SQL Server
imo not a dupe, one is a feature request, to allow flag on locked question, the other a discussion for the why
oh, that was oracle
Still can't get just REGEXP to work
Doesn't have that either. Just LIKE
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Why does moving air feel cold? by tina singh on engineering.SE
@PaulWhite So TL;DR: no regex?
@PrincessLuna Exactly so. I did request full text search once but ... crickets
Q: Add Full-Text Search and Semantic Search to Data Explorer

Paul WhiteCan SQL Server Full-Text Search and Semantic Search be added to Stack Exchange Data Explorer? Much of the textual data is difficult to query using T-SQL alone (impossible, if one hits a time out). Adding Full-Text Search and Semantic Search would allow for more powerful analysis, and make some ...

Not that that would do what regex search does anyway, but hey
12:51 PM
What sort of search are you looking to perform?
Finding possibly toxic/offensive comments
Ah poor old SEDE being hammered by such queries lately
I blame the whole series of events on this, some people are too envy to accept a happy ever after ending ... >_<
I wonder if there has been any attempt to coordinate such efforts on a meta anywhere
@PaulWhite Nope
12:55 PM
Would that be in the data dump too?
Comments that is
Yep yep
6400 comments on the first keyword
The download is quite large though.
@TelKitty That is almost violently cute, I'm suing you for emotional distress
@PaulWhite Never too late to start? :D
12:57 PM
Took me about 20 mins at 200Mbps and then another half hour or so to decompress.
@user5389107 as long as you don't flag me for it
Most comments on data dump would probably be... expired, since the blog post...
Why oh why SE/SO chose case-sensitive collation :(
Comments should cost rep
00:00 - 13:0013:00 - 00:00

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