Tavern on the Meta

Remember, the goal here is to put questions on a path to their most appropriate destination as quickly as possible. We can make mistakes - we just need to do significantly better than the automated systems. Which is still a pretty low bar, albeit one that First Posts struggles to clear.

Unihedron

@Shog9 will there be an "I can edit to fix all the problems" button?

Oftentimes I find a need of that, I just click "needs improvement" and go to the question page to edit..

Shog9

Contrast with the close queue, where the cost of a mistake can be pretty high.

@Unihedron I'm not against it; I'm never against editing... But I don't want to see it yet.

Unihedron

5:33 PM

Gotcha

Shog9

My gut feeling is that if we provide an editing option, we'll want it to pull the question out of triage and into... another state. One where we gently beat the editor over the head with the notion that he should be editing the whole damn post and not just fixing code formatting or that one annoying typo.

Unihedron

Hence why I included "all the problems" - though I see your point, extra attention is needed for the editor to be aware of what they're supposed to do

hichris123

@Shog9 Although almost every question needs some editing. Sooo...

Infinite Happiness

Based on the ones that I reviewed in the Triage (a tiny data set), I don't see it working. The triage outcome doesn't coincide with the actual fate of the questions. The triage reviewers don't seem to be in harmony with the opinion of the community stackoverflow.com/review/triage/6392684

Shog9

Regardless, I don't particularly want editing to happen in the triage queue itself. Even for a fast editor, editing is a lot slower than clicking a button, and other folks may be waiting on you to finish.

Infinite Happiness

5:38 PM

Maybe 500 rep is too low, they can't know what needs to be closed. 2k is better

Unihedron

I'm also going to rant about how the triage reviewers don't seem to be aware that crap should be dealt with. I wouldn't be against significantly rising the rep limit to access the queue, like ~~3-5k.~~ 2k

bjb568

> this question has too many issues and isn't worth fixing
≠ Unsalvageable
> this question requires work
Append "to fix"?
Why no flag dialog?
Why no comment dialog?
"Unsalvageable" needs work too, make them mutually exclusive.

Shog9

I'd rather have low-rep users triaging and high-rep users in specialized queues where their experience can be put to better use. Or, y'know, answering questions.

bjb568

@Shog9 Answering? :O

Unihedron

@Shog9 Sure, I'll go answer questions!

user259867

5:40 PM

Answering questions is so 2011.

8

Unihedron

gears up RegexBuddy and regex101 and camps [regex]

Shog9

@bjb568 y'know, that thing people do until they earn 10K and have no more worlds to conquer.

Unihedron

@Shog9 s,10k,20k

bjb568

… 20k?

Shog9

whichever

I kinda coasted from 15 to 20

bjb568

5:40 PM

Hah! I am Unihedron's Sock.

Unihedron

make it 100k, 'cuz you stop getting moar delete votes by then

hichris123

Is it considered plagiarism to copy a code snippet (but not the whole answer) and post it as another answer?

Infinite Happiness

I forgot when I posted my last answer on SO, and I am only a 3k user :/

Shog9

@hichris123 not if you attribute it

hichris123

Wondering if I should flag a post I found...

Unihedron

5:41 PM

@hichris123 yes, please add attribution

hichris123

@Shog9 It's not.

Shog9

@hichris123 toss in a link to stackoverflow.com/help/referencing

hichris123

k, sounds good.

bjb568

Reputation system breaks down after about 1k. After then all the mod tools get unlocked which has nothing to do with post contributions. Mod tools should be unlocked by modding! It's especially obvious on the high end. 20k users really aren't better than 10k users. Certainly 100k won't make a difference.

Unihedron

@bjb568 inb4 "riot moderation" rant

Shog9

5:43 PM

The problem is, some users are really good at using the mod tools but really bad at actually understanding the posts they're moderating

Jan Dvorak

But the people who get 20k or gold badges aren't those willing to actually moderate stuff. They're interested in gathering more rep

bjb568

Some don't have time to answer. Some don't want to. But that doesn't make them a bad mod.

Unihedron

The problem is, lots of users have mod tools but don't use them. They rather watch the crap flow in and pick the ones they like to answer.

bjb568

@JanDvorak Exactly.

Shog9

@bjb568 doesn't make them a good one either.

Jan Dvorak

5:44 PM

@Shog9 perhaps helpful flags do?

Shog9

Frequently, the difference between too broad and good (or at least, duplicate) is knowing something about the topic

Unihedron

@Shog9 But close votes are not granted on per-tag-score basis, but per-reputation.

bjb568

@Shog9 You know what does make them a good one? Experience. So, for example you should be able to insta-edit when you have enough edits approved (minus 3x edits rejected).

Shog9

Same for answers. If you don't know what you're looking at, differentiating between highly specialized knowledge and Markov bullshit can be... challenging.

hichris123

@bjb568 Yeah, no.

Jan Dvorak

5:46 PM

that's why we have a skip button

hichris123

Think how many people have edited 1 tag and gotten an edit approved.

bjb568

@hichris123 Obviously we need to fix the robo problem too. Like, harder audits!

Unihedron

@bjb568 Because the CVQ ones aren't hard enough?

Shog9

@bjb568 gets you half way there. Again though, there's a requirement to have done something else, to have some connection to the actual topic(s)

Unihedron

@Shog9 badges on moderation?

hichris123

5:47 PM

@bjb568 I really don't think we can ever truly get a perfect audit system. So many borderline cases...

Jan Dvorak

Random thought #1: Random bans revokable only by asking on meta?

Shog9

Don't get me wrong - I like the concept of earning your way to more privileges by demonstrating competence in the same area. But it only goes so far. At some level, it's really hard to beat "skin in the game" as a check on abuse.

bjb568

6

Q: Prevent minor and invalid edits better

I'm sick and tired of people repeatedly spamming the edit queue with minor edits. I want to punish the editors and robo-reviewers and prevent some of them from entering the queue in the first place. The audits are too easy It covers the vandalism reject reason, but what about the other ones? A ...

27

Q: Rollback button in suggested edits queue

This edit was already approved - please visit the post and correct the edit. Why? Can't I have a rollback button on the page? Preferably putting the edit into a mod queue to consider review-banning the robo-reviewers? The extra clicking seems unnecessary.

feature-request review suggested-edits

^ My complaint about the suggested edit queue

@Unihedron My example was for edits…

Unihedron

Random thought #2: Increase moderation vote quotas for users with corresponding moderation badges?

nicael

Green - MSE
Red - SO
Yellow - Craft CMS
Blue - Emacs
Thats my rep graph if I would join every site in one day

rene

5:49 PM

Ouch, that went downhill quick: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/278636/…

+1 @Unihedron

+1 @Unihedron

@rene gone

> And given the usefulness of these responses, I'm now out of here. Congratulations folks. – tgm1024 1 min ago

bjb568

@Shog9 Given that the rep system is kinda borked (sympathy upvoting, +10,-2, no vote confidence scoring (WHERE'S MY META POST THAT GOT ROOMBA'D), etc.) and the high current requirements (like 20k (!)), I don't think that works.

Bart

5:50 PM

@rene set himself up for failure really

bjb568

@hichris123 It can be improved.

@JanDvorak no

Unihedron

Random thought #3: Award moderation tools upon sufficient (i.e. a lot of) Meta participation + sufficient (i.e. even more of) days spent on the site, instead of measuring reputation?

4

@Unihedron Agree

@Unihedron +1

@Unihedron Agree

5:52 PM

@Bart sure, but I couldn't find a direct dupe so I thought it was worth an answer...

Jan Dvorak

@Unihedron only positive-voted meta posts should count

Bart

@Unihedron lots of Meta participation isn't necessarily a positive thing

bjb568

meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254305/i-want-to-review-more

Y U IZ DELETE

ProgramFOX

@Unihedron +1

Bart

@bjb568 score

Jan Dvorak

5:53 PM

@Bart lots of meta upvotes?

Infinite Happiness

Y U IZ SHOUTING?

Unihedron

@Bart By the time you read lots of threads + post lots of well-received content, the metrics has to be falling somewhere...

bjb568

@Bart If it's positively upvoted tho…

@Bart Yeah, but it shouldn't be.

Bart

@JanDvorak meh ... Meta is tricky

Unihedron

Consider users posting on Meta with nice feature requests and bug reports, and upvote discussion threads themselves, that would indicate awareness on the system, blah blah blah

Shog9

5:54 PM

@bjb568 For all its flaws, relatively few people get past 1-2K without posting something useful.

bjb568

@Shog9 If they get to 20k, then… what?

Shog9

?

Jan Dvorak

any rep >> 20k => rep-whore

rene

They get a smiting stick?

Unihedron

@bjb568 They've stayed on the site for at least a year, and their posts got sufficient views and because of age, posts gets lots of upvotes

Jan Dvorak

5:55 PM

nuke-pls stackoverflow.com/a/27332917/499214

Bart

@rene you don't get a smiting stick. A smiting stick finds you

4

bjb568

@Unihedron They are a rep whore and have a lot of time to waste here.

Jan Dvorak

And this is whom we hand out moderation

Shog9

@Unihedron I'm pretty sure I have more meta participation than most of you, and therefore am qualified to speak to its value: it doesn't make you a good moderator.

Jan Dvorak

@Shog9 those upvoted meta posts of yours speak of you being a good mod, though

Unihedron

5:57 PM

@Shog9 What does? Positive meta participation and badges are the two more accurate reflections of your activity on the site / helping the site, in my opinion.

bjb568

A bad mod won't go on meta and create 20 +5'd posts.

Infinite Happiness

I agree with Shog and Bart about meta participation being irrelevant

Bart

@InfiniteHappiness not exactly irrelevant. But not an accurate measure of anything. It shows you're at least interested beyond the parent site. But that's about it.

bjb568

It may be mostly irrelevant, but it's a data point that can be fed into a "how crappy are you" eval for mods.

Shog9

@JanDvorak No, they speak of me being... How do I say this without it coming back to haunt me... able to state the obvious without sounding too patronizing.

Unihedro

5:59 PM

...

Shog9

@Unihedro There's no silver bullet. There rarely is.

bjb568

…

Bart

nice emphasis on "too" :p

Jan Dvorak

Someone asks for a flag reject explanation => mod explains => community does not like => bam, no more good enough average meta score to be a mod. Pls

bjb568

Maybe not an average. Maybe a mode or median. Or maybe just n posts above line. Or maybe n posts above line AND mode/median.

Unihedro

6:00 PM

Maybe take a curve like Area51's commitment score. I like that formula.

Or calculate virtual child meta rep and only award mod tools when you have virtual child meta rep over 10- wait, that's what we're trying to avoid...

Shog9

pats self on the back for avoiding the words "pandering populist blowhard"

6

bjb568

Also, CW score sum could be a useful stat.

Jan Dvorak

count(positive score) && %(positive score)?

bjb568

@JanDvorak Maybe +2 or +3 instead of just positive, but yeah, that.

Infinite Happiness

Award it based on number of helpful flags, that is a number that doesn't matter anywhere...

Unihedro

6:02 PM

^^^

Jan Dvorak

^^^

bjb568

Then some certain mod will complain about how he doesn't get to decline all the VLQ flags.

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 Yes, please

Infinite Happiness

did you see the absence of vlq flags on questions @bjb?

Unihedro

bjb568

6:04 PM

And how some users have an inflated flag count for helping the system by generating LQRQ content that can be handled in a better manner…

@InfiniteHappiness Yes, yes.

Bart

How about we just lock users in a room and hurl insults and Nazi references at them. If they snap in any way, they are dismissed.

9

Unihedro

@Bart This plan is A++. @Shog let's do it!

Jan Dvorak

@Bart then I would never become a mod

Shog9

I think Bart has the right idea here

Unihedro

prepares a room for Shog9

Jan Dvorak

6:05 PM

unless disconnecting the internet counts as not snapping

bjb568

I'M NOT A NAZI YOU NAZI MODERATOR.

Shog9

The Room (film)

The Room is a 2003 independent romantic drama film written, directed, produced by, and starring Tommy Wiseau. The film is primarily centered on the melodramatic love triangle between an amiable banker (Wiseau), his fiancée (Juliette Danielle), and his conflicted best friend (Greg Sestero). A significant portion of the film is dedicated to a series of unrelated subplots involving the friends and family of the main characters. Entertainment Weekly has called The Room "the Citizen Kane of bad movies" and a number of notable publications have labeled it as one of the worst films ever made. Originally...

Jan Dvorak

I'm not a nazi, I'm just a grammar nazi.

@bjb568 Nice, isn't it?

Unihedro

@bjb568 delete --reason="obsolete"

Jan Dvorak

flags bjb's comment as obsolete, then flags his own as a duplicate

bjb568

6:07 PM

@Unihedro delete --reason="obsolete"

Unihedro

status-declined

Jan Dvorak

flags own comment as obsolete

Frank

@bjb568 delete --reason="obsolete"

bjb568

status-DENIED

Unihedro

status-bjb-never-gets-any-declined-flags

2

Infinite Happiness

6:08 PM

@Bart, that reminds me. There is a conversation you could walk away from... meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/278619/…. The post by Cupcake which he is referring to is totally unrelated (I know because I was involved). That is a dead-end conversation you are having there

Bart

@InfiniteHappiness there is a reason my last response was an hour ago

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: WHY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO NAT EXEMPTION FROM LOWER TO HIGHER SECURITY LEVEL ON ASA 8.0 by user3347934 on networkengineering.stackexchange.com

Infinite Happiness

Ok, I thought you might go back after the tavern talk is over.. My bad.

Unihedro

Good night!

Frank

,,ǝʇǝןosqo,,=uosɐǝɹ-- ǝʇǝןǝp

ProgramFOX

6:10 PM

Night!

Frank

@Unihedro Night!

ProgramFOX

Wait, is his new name really "Unihedro"?

Bart

@InfiniteHappiness I have a world of blocks awaiting me ... far more important

Infinite Happiness

@uni night :)

Frank

@ProgramFOX seriously, I thought that too...

Bart

6:11 PM

Night

Jan Dvorak

@Frank delete -Rupside-down

Unihedro

is amused that users are confused

bjb568

Uhoh. Next it'll be Unihed!

Frank

@Unihedro is not ever confused

Infinite Happiness

I like your new name @Unihedro, subtle change :)

bjb568

6:12 PM

@Frank u iz tree

Frank

@bjb568 truth

Unihedro

Enough for another while @Inf :)

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 u suck @ gramer

Unihedro

@JanDvorak ma grammer iz gooder

status-best-grammer

Jan Dvorak

@Unihedro lies

Unihedro

6:13 PM

58 secs ago, by Frank

@bjb568 truth

3

Infinite Happiness

The room for @uni and @inf is still valid, despite our new names :D

Unihedro

:D

It took me a while to pick between "Unihedro" and "Unihedrone".

Infinite Happiness

Unihedro is better :)

Did Nordehinu get a new name too?

Jan Dvorak

Don't make me call myself "Jane"!!!

Frank

i is bedst at gramarr mor then all u. me is nevr mispell thing or does bad gramme ,

2

Unihedro

6:15 PM

I would had named him "Ordehinu" but I'd cry in that case.

Jan Dvorak

@Frank wat?

Frank

@JanDvorak I will try not to, Jane.

Unihedro

@Frank frantically rushes to close message as "unclear"

Infinite Happiness

Jane is a nice name @JanDvorak. Jane Austen is one of my favorite authors.

Jan Dvorak

> this chat message appears to be off-topic because you suck at english.

Unihedro

6:17 PM

> this chat message appears to be off-topic because it has nothing to do with stars.

Infinite Happiness

@Frank You are right, your grammar is better than mine. My English annoys everybody :(

Jan Dvorak

*inb4 off-topic astrology-related chat messages

Frank

@JanDvorak hay, ites my natev languige. I's grate at uzing it

bjb568

How long does it take for a name change to propagate to chat?

ProgramFOX

@bjb568 duplicate of a message posted yesterday

Unihedro

6:18 PM

@bjb568 six to eight seconds

Jan Dvorak

@Frank You better switch to english then

Unihedro

►

Frank

@Unihedro Mine took longer.

Unihedro

6 mins ago, by Jan Dvorak

@Unihedro lies

ProgramFOX

yesterday, by Infinite Happiness

@Mooseman: It updates at a certain time every hour, approximately 45 minutes from now...

Frank

6:19 PM

6 mins ago, by Unihedro

58 secs ago, by Frank

@bjb568 truth

Infinite Happiness

Do it fast @bjb, in the next 10 minutes or so, it will update. It refreshes hourly

bjb568

@InfiniteHappiness did

ProgramFOX

Lol

Unihedro

ROFL

I love it :D :D

bjb568

41 secs ago, by Frank

6 mins ago, by Unihedro

58 secs ago, by Frank

@bjb568 truth

Frank

6:21 PM

36 secs ago, by bjb568

41 secs ago, by Frank

6 mins ago, by Unihedro

58 secs ago, by Frank

@bjb568 truth

Infinite Happiness

I love it too @bjb568

Jan Dvorak

13 secs ago, by Frank

36 secs ago, by bjb568

41 secs ago, by Frank

6 mins ago, by Unihedro

58 secs ago, by Frank

@bjb568 truth

ProgramFOX

Onebox Overflow

Unihedro

... I get it

bjb568

21 secs ago, by Jan Dvorak

13 secs ago, by Frank

36 secs ago, by bjb568

41 secs ago, by Frank

6 mins ago, by Unihedro

58 secs ago, by Frank

@bjb568 truth

Infinite Happiness

6:22 PM

1 min ago, by ProgramFOX

Onebox Overflow

Frank

hey

bjb568

hay

Jan Dvorak

25 secs ago, by Infinite Happiness

1 min ago, by ProgramFOX

Onebox Overflow

bjb568

14 secs ago, by Jan Dvorak

25 secs ago, by Infinite Happiness

1 min ago, by ProgramFOX

Onebox Overflow

Frank

I'm gonna change my name back before it goes on chat...

Unihedro

6:24 PM

> "I love taking things apart, and sometimes I put them back together in different ways while singing my favorite song "Everything Is Awesome"... "

Infinite Happiness

^ This is what happens when Jan and bjb are in harmony!

Jan Dvorak

@Franklin why?

bjb568

> Besides being the best tree there is, I have strong allergies to certain cats, ducks, glasses, socks, dogs, owlhead/dodo, peeping eyes, and other items I find myself liable to stumble across.

:O

Unihedro

@bjb568 You... Noticed that just now? :O

Infinite Happiness

dodo :D

bjb568

6:25 PM

Doesn't mention booby…

Jan Dvorak

I thought that nickname had died out already?

Frank

dodo?

But it's awesome.

Infinite Happiness

> dogs, owlhead/ dodo

^ I quoted it from there

Frank

:/

Unihedro

walks away from SE and heads home to finally sleep

Jan Dvorak

6:28 PM

@Unihedr Night!

Bart

Get home first. Night @Unihedro

bjb568

@Unihedro Night!

Frank

I should lie and change it to say "I have strong affections toward certain ...", and completely freak everyone out.

Infinite Happiness

everybody is pinging uni :(

Bart

@Frank inb4 inappropriate profile report on Meta

Infinite Happiness

6:29 PM

Go to facebook @Frank :P

Frank

@InfiniteHappiness yeah...

I don't think I could actually make myself type that in there though...

Infinite Happiness

True. I remember that you freaked out one day when one user expressed their affection for you in the tavern @Frank

Frank

@InfiniteHappiness I don't recall that

Infinite Happiness

Good. I won't remind you. It was unpleasant.

Frank

It's raining here, so I'm of work early, after getting soaked.

Infinite Happiness

6:35 PM

Nice :D

I'm not a fan of long usernames. Having an ellipsis may encourage more people to have long usernames. For example my current username is cVplZ, not close vote please. — Sompuperoo 19 hours ago

^ cVplZ changed his name

Frank

@InfiniteHappiness I knew he was gonna

Infinite Happiness

Yes, atleast he does it less frequently as compared to Behaviour

Frank

@InfiniteHappiness We need a generic name like George for that guy...

Infinite Happiness

lol

it's too boring for him

Frank

true

Bart

6:39 PM

Pinky McPinkerton the 3rd?

Frank

@Bart tl;dr

Infinite Happiness

Hey, stay away from Pink!

Bart

:D

nicael

-1

Q: Shouldn't the questions about Stack Apps be closed as off-topic there?

Today I have voted to close the question about Stack Apps: The black hole known as Meta Stack Apps. I noticed that everyone who reviewed this question in close votes review left open it. So I wondered, aren't the questions about Stack Apps off-topic there because "pertain to specific site", lik...