Tavern on the Meta

waffles

00:01

if we added an interesting tab, how would we sort it ? (hot / votes / newest / active)

Lance Roberts

I would probably actually add an Interesting Button and then have the standard sort options.

waffles

or a link below "interesting tags" that says "all interesting tags"

the issue though is performance

it would be a beast of a query

a contains clause with 20 ors, I worry about that stuff

Nick Craver

even cached that'd be painful

Lance Roberts

Well that's a good point, but you do it now in the 'My Tags' query under 'Unanswered', it would just have all questions instead of the 'Unanswered' ones.

Seems like it'd be less calculation for the DB, though higher volume.

Nick Craver

@waffles - what about certain other annoyances though, e.g. not being able to link to a date range is somewhat annoying, yet easy to fix

e.g. this: stackoverflow.com/users/recent/13249?date=today

all the user profile pages that only the user can see being sliding is very annoying, have to use a bookmarklet to link to "today" currently, so simple to add though

waffles

00:08

@Nick I haven't had a chance to work much on that page, Jarrod did optimise the sql quite a lot on Friday ... I do think that area needs a refactor

a bigger issue for me is the random envelope

Nick Craver

from favorites?

it's the reason i deleted most of my favorites a while back

waffles

Nope, I notice it sometimes only highlight on second load

also it requires lots of mental juggling

We could theoretically store the last date a person looks at a questions and then keep it highlighted till you revisit it ...

talked to @Jeff about it a few months ago but he is worried about performance

bottom line is that I agree, the /recent section can be a bit quirky and I think we should revisit it at some point

Nick Craver

i think the denormalized rep it uses also makes it wacky, though probably most users don't notice

Dana the Sane

00:37

Hmm, perhaps chat.meta is better than wave because it provides it's own 'context'? Too many of Google's products seem to get lost on the interwebs.

Nick Craver

00:57

I knew I wasn't crazy! blogs.msdn.com/b/visualstudio/archive/2010/08/12/…

George Marian

@nickcraver That doesn't necessarily mean you're not crazy. ;)

Nick Craver

touche sir

now if they'd fix the unnecessary scroll of the context menu (when there's still space)...i don't know how that got past the testing team

George Marian

It amazes me sometimes what gets past even the best of 'em.

George Marian

01:18

First 3-D Porn Movie Made In Hong Kong http://bit.ly/dm0ono

Tweeted by slashdot on August 16, 2010 at 8:18 PM

Sam152

lololo

George Marian

Right along with animated movies (like Despicable Me) I dunno if want to see something like that in 3-D.

Sam152

Is that link SFW?

George Marian

Let me double check, but it should be. It's slashdot.

Yup, looks clean.

Sam152

Who would want to go to a cinema to watch a porno?

George Marian

01:22

@sam152 Weirdos?

I've never understood it either.

Nor watching porn with your buds.

Sam152

Hahahaha

Joe Phillips

...but it's 3D

George Marian

Granted, that doesn't count if you or your buds are female. ;)

Marc Gravell

06:38

Another 2 stars this morning from people who think I should prioritise chat over my good lady wife ;p Thanks Scott....

George Marian

lol

Benjol

@MarcGravell, I'd -1 it if I could :)

Marc Gravell

wait... the comment? or my wife? what did you say about her? ;p

Benjol

I'm guessing that when you sold the job change to her you didn't say "yeah, so instead of spending 4 hours in the train, I'll be spending 4 hours chatting with people I've never met" :)

Marc Gravell

actually, she's pretty good at dragging me away from work/chat and spending time with the kids; especially as it is holidays at the moment

Benjol

06:46

I can't imagine how cool it must be to regain 4 hours of your life every day...

[thinks: is this is off topic...?]

Marc Gravell

8 messages moved from Chat feedback

George Marian

Now, that's a useful trick.

Benjol

wow, that IS cool :)

Marc Gravell

very ;p

George Marian

So what was it, mods and room owners?

Benjol

06:49

Just one thing - I think that for posterity (transcript) sake, the comment on the 'source' chat should link not just to the target room, but also the position of the first post in the set

[thinks: rats, off topic again!]

Marc Gravell

mods and owners, yes; you must also have the ability to write into the target room

George Marian

runs off to start a room of his own

George Marian

07:02

Ughh...I really like Jack Johnson's music...but the site is just plain hard to freaking read...wtf

Benjol

07:16

Test hello George

Test hello @GeorgeMarian

Benjol

11:59

Any >10k users around? wonder where this question went, and why: stackoverflow.com/questions/3502049/…

devinb

12:44

@marcgravell To be fair to those people, they spend a lot of time with chat, and none with your wife.

balpha

@Benjol seems you didn't get an answer yet -- the owner deleted it

Benjol

@balpha, thanks, he's been asking a whole load of pretty-much-identical and very basic c# string replace questions,, so maybe he's seen the light. I was worried someone over zealous had zapped it

Marc Gravell

Averaged "The Tavern" daily profile, so you can see your busy times:

Benjol

@MarcGravell, is that auto-translated to my time zone? :)

devinb

@benjol No.

What kind of voodoo magic would it be if it could do that?

Benjol

12:57

@devinb, well the timestamps are magicked, so I figured just maybe...

Marc Gravell

@devinb - well, we already do plenty of such voodoo...

it could be. But it isn't; at least, not today.

devinb

@marcgravell That's why I specifically asked for the kind of voodoo magic. Yesterday it was Jack Bauer themed.

Benjol

Funny that the shapes are slightly different

devinb

@benjol Words not to say on a first date.

Benjol

Feedback has an obvious hole when America sleeps, and another when Marc sleeps :)

Popular Demand

13:56

... good morning, gentle tavernfolk?

Benjol

... good afternoon, have fun all, I'm gone ;)

devinb

'morn

Popular Demand

Hm, back to Meta Stack Overflow Original Flavor, then.

Whoop, I take it back.

Wow, that is some delay.

Almost 40s.

Two more questions from that suspended SF user. My troll detector is swinging slightly back in the direction of "not malicious, but epic English fail."

devinb

I think 'troll' has a lot of negative connotations that I'd like to avoid labeling people with.

Popular Demand

Astonishing:

meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=[faq]+sockpuppet

@devinb Such as what?

devinb

14:08

This particular user simply feels wronged and is stubborn about it. He feels like if he changes, then he'll be implicitly admitting that they were right to treat him this way.

Popular Demand

A plausible theory.

devinb

@populardemand The belief about trolls is that they are going fishing. Like teenage hackers who are malicious and obnoxious kids, intent on having fun with some "harmless" vandalism or tom-foolery.

People HATE trolls.

But there are also users who are simply very confused, and they want to try and make their point.

Popular Demand

@devinb Yeah, that's why I'm really hesitant to apply the label to anyone, as discussed yesterday. But there are actual trolls out there. If being a psych major taught me anything, it's that identifying someone's true intentions/motivations/desires is really hard. Doing it online with people you don't know? Basically impossible. So, I'm going to be careful about it, and I freely admit I will make mistakes, but I'm not going to just not do it.

devinb

@populardemand I've made that comment MANY a time, I'm sure you've read, we simply cannot determine why someone is behaving the way they are. We can only (in my opinion) try to help them behave "correct" (that is, appropriate to these (admittedly self-indulgent) surroundings)

I remember when users were trying to pretend that Evan's improved behaviour was an indication of malicious intent.

Popular Demand

14:24

@devinb Yeah, but trolls are unwilling to be "helped" by nature. And a certain subset of confused users is unable to be helped by our limited means (and other issues on a case-by-case basis). So at some point, the expectation of benefits from the effort is such that it's no longer worth trying.

I think we're 90% sitting here and agreeing with each other, though.

... why won't Eclipse connect to SVN?

devinb

... I don't know

Michael Mrozek

@devinb I was one of those users, and I stand by it :)

devinb

... Why are we whispering

@michaelmrozek I know. It's one of my core values which is why it was such a big deal to me.

Popular Demand

@devinb Because I figured I'd hop on chat just until I synced up, but the server appears to be down.

devinb

@populardemand Ouch.

@populardemand My project is quite annoying right now. takes about 30 seconds to build, then 10 seconds to deploy. then 20 seconds for iis recycle, then 5 seconds to load the page.

Popular Demand

14:28

Right then, moving on to Plan B beta: come up with a Plan B 1.0.

Hah! My builds take six minutes (which is why I have so much time to spend on Meta answering questions and inching towards that [Copy Editor] badge).

But yeah, I can see how yours is worse; long enough that it's annoying to wait, not long enough to use that time for anything else.

JSBangs

d00dz, a full build of our system takes at least 30 min

and test time is worse

devinb

Mine is a rather fragile inherited system. Not the kind of thing that you can safely modify more than one thing at a time.

It was built... unusually.

spoulson

@devinb Sounds a bit like my project now

devinb

@spoulson and good times were had by all?

spoulson

@devinb Fiddling with GUI components. Infragistics controls (circa 2006), to be exact.

devinb

14:31

sounds delicious.

spoulson

@devinb And it compiles as a runtime loaded assembly, so I have to compile, open up the main app, replicate a bunch of test steps before my code runs.

@devinb And god forbid if I left the app open while I compiled... build steps fail copying the assembly to the target folder.

devinb

@spouls I just got out of a bug like that :)

JSBangs

@spoulson, that's horrible

i sympathize with you

devinb

I think I win though, mine was in IE6

spoulson

I'm forced to use VS2005 because of third party dependencies. take that!

devinb

14:33

I concede.

Popular Demand

Well played, sir.

spoulson

We have VS2010, but vendor says stick to 2005 because of Infragistics dependency. :(

devinb

@spoulson Is this the kind of situation where violence can solve it?

If not, I'm out of ideas.

Popular Demand

Hm, closing this guy's questions is having no effect. He's only editing his post and using comments anyways, and posting new questions every once in a while.

jjnguy

I think he is just really bad with english

devinb

14:36

Dammit. I can WIN this.

jjnguy, you did a phenomenal job.

Popular Demand

Yeah, I figured I was done yesterday when he said "I was never notified" and proceeded to post the e-mail from Kyle notifying him.

jjnguy

@devinb I felt like i was making progress....and then today happened...

JSBangs

@PopularDemand, what's the user we're talking about here?

devinb

@jjnguy It looked like you were too.

spoulson

@devinb I only wish violence solved problems.

Popular Demand

14:37

If it is trolling, there's no point in continuing. If it's not, although I consider myself to have above-average English skills, I don't think I'm good enough to resolve this problem just over the Internet.

HoLyVieR

I think someone is asking to be banned from meta ...

spoulson

@devinb because then I'd come to work prepared

HoLyVieR

-3

Q: I(vgv8) is blocked from writing in MSO - why?

Sorry, I confused abbreviations in previous question forcing me to reopen it separately My account vgv8 is blocked from writing in MSO - why? vgv8 can still write in SO. What rules have I(vgv8) abused in MSO?

Popular Demand

user138194

1 3

support moderation abuse account-suspension spammer

HoLyVieR

Duplicate #3

JSBangs

14:38

ah, yes, him

devinb

@spoulson Depends on the problem. Office Space?

jjnguy

-5

Q: I (vgv8) am blocked from writing to MSF - why?

Possible Duplicate: Why was my account closed in SF? and my posts there were partly deleted. Why? Which rules did I infringe in MSF from account vgv8? What is the sense of blocking access of users to meta-discussions? And why had not I got any notification about duspension? Also, i...

support moderation abuse account-suspension spammer

devinb

►

spoulson

@devinb I see what you did there

jjnguy

He is clinging to this notion that Kyle told him to edit replies into his posts...

I wish Kyle would show up.

devinb

14:40

Why did we close an exact duplicate as noise or pointless?

HoLyVieR

because it is

Popular Demand

Both criteria apply.

devinb

Well it isn't noise or pointless. If it wasn't coming from him, it's a valid question.

But in his case, it's an exact duplicate.

Also, he's annoying.

HoLyVieR

The problem with him is that no mater what people told him, he thinks he's on the good side fighting the bad one.

Popular Demand

I believed that "having it present on the site is actively harmful because it distracts from other more useful questions" was true.

Michael Mrozek

14:42

@devinb Was it an exact duplicate? I couldn't find one specifically about being banned from SO meta, just the one about SF meta; I tried before voting as noise for the reason Popular said

devinb

@michaelmrozek He hasn't been banned from metaSO

@holyvier Agreed.

alright, I concede this point as well.

I voted to close as Noise or Pointless myself. I guess i'm susceptible to peer-pressure

HoLyVieR

Meh, I just feel like filling out most question of my intern report with "The question is subjective and argumentative".

devinb

I feel like my tendency to use big words is a problem in this case.

Popular Demand

@devinb As long as you only succumb to peer pressure when your peers are right....

@devinb I'm actually suddenly really interested in what kind of answer qualities get upvoted/downvoted/ignored.

devinb

@Popula It's hard for me to ever believe that other people are right. :P

Shog! Welcome!

It's a good show on Meta today.

Popular Demand

14:48

Big words: good, bad, neutral? Bulleted lists: good, bad, neutral? Paragraphs: good, bad, neutral? Long posts: good, bad, neutral? Short posts: good, bad, neutral? &c.

HoLyVieR

"Keep it simple stupid" (KISS) is what often gets upvoted for question and answer

devinb

question structure is a big deal. Use bulleted lists and headers, if your answer is long enough (re: mine) to warrant them.

Wall of text = DEATH.

Popular Demand

While you are probably not wrong, I was really thinking more about statistics. I'm sure this is roughly quantifiable.

Also, @devinb I just upvoted an answer of yours to exactly 2x the score of an accepted answer; now we see if the definition of [Populist] -- "by more than 2x" -- is correct, or if it should read "by 2x or more."

(I didn't do it for that reason, I just noticed it when I was about to post.)

devinb

I saw that, I'm not sure, I'll tell you if I get the badge though.

Although I may have already had the badge for that post.

then Jeff got voted up.

Shog9

@devinb 'morning

Popular Demand

14:59

Your [Populist] says "no reason given," and I can see that answer, so I figure it's something else.

Unless there can only be one [Populist] per question.

Which I don't believe is the case.

devinb

I can only get the badge once per question yes.

I was a populist, then I wasn't, and the I was again.

Popular Demand

I'm saying that I think your existing [Populist] is for a different question. Although that brings up a good edge case. It's known that if you have a badge, and the criteria for it no longer exist, the badge stays but you don't get a new copy of that badge until you "make up for" the lost one. But now that we have "awarded for" information, does the "makeup information" get displayed over the no-reason-given text?

... did I just blow you all away with the incredible nature of that potential edge case, or is there a free waffle bar somewhere I'm not aware of?

devinb

@populardemand That edge case is "known". You'd have to ask @waffles, actually. He implemented the functionality.

Popular Demand

But... he's not here.

devinb

give it time, my young friend.

Sergio Tapia

15:15

testing

is this working?

Popular Demand

Hello, @SergioTapia

I can see what you're writing.

Sergio Tapia

Haha! This thing is great!

Popular Demand

@sergiotapia Ah, you're in the wrong place. You want this room: chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/169/…

Sergio Tapia

But I don't think this is confusing.

O_O

I have my first internship today.

Popular Demand

Congrats.

Sergio Tapia

15:18

Started at 8am

devinb

@sergiotapia Yes you do. You'll realized eventually.

Sergio Tapia

at least I'll be using C# thanks Baphomet.

Popular Demand

Hm, team meeting in a few minutes, gotta hit the microwave. See you all in a bit.

HoLyVieR

I'm finishing my first internship this week, I got lucky to have a nice one.

Sergio Tapia

Cool

programming or QA?

HoLyVieR

15:22

Was in C# too

programming

George Marian

Hey, hey no chatting...I'm still trying to catch up. ;)

Shog9

@georgemarian I (vgv8) read faster than you - Why?

Sergio Tapia

So I'm guessing this page was built with some AJAX wizardry?

HoLyVieR

AJAX yes, wizardery I doubt

unless someone is hiding us something

George Marian

@shog9 LOL Dyslexia's a bitch?

Fosco

15:24

asynchronous javascript is love

but the X has to go... XML is passe.

Sergio Tapia

Whenever I hear the word asynchronous I shudder.

I still haven't dabbled in anything related to it believe it or not.

Fosco

visit jquery.com immediately.

Shog9

async is beautiful

Fosco

I'll never build another website without it.

HoLyVieR

@Fosco AJAJ (Asynchronus Javascript And JSON) doesn't sounds good tough

Fosco

15:25

@HolyVier right?.. hehe... I made my own before JSON became popular.. I called it FMaj (or F Major)..

just used nested delimiters at the time, good enough for my purposes.

George Marian

@holyvier 'Cause AJAX does? I always think of the cleaner.

Fosco

I don't know why it needs a name...

HoLyVieR

It sounds better to me, maybe just because I'm used to it.

Fosco

it's just javascript.

Rahul

hey, is that the star trek sound effect?

Popular Demand

15:27

@GeorgeMarian Hello! What does the catchup tab say on chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/users/148384/george-marian

Sergio Tapia

It's a fancy way of doing a postback to the web server without refreshing the entire page.

It's wizardry.

Popular Demand

... what is the "pair off" option when you click on another user's icon?

George Marian

@populardemand It says that I'm awesome.

2

As, I typo...lol

@populardemand Cyber?

Popular Demand

Ooh, old dotted lines fade out. Never noticed that before.

George Marian

I think that one of the cats just ran into the door jam.

Michael Mrozek

15:31

@PopularDemand It lets you create a new room and auto-invite that user to it (if you haven't already tried)

Popular Demand

@michaelmrozek thanks, I hadn't. Wasn't keen on clicking a link with "off" in the text without understanding it.

Sergio Tapia

By the way, if you're bored try reading DamnInteresting.com

What purpose does this channel server though?

Besides giving feedback on the -Exchange websites

HoLyVieR

The chat is "The 3rd place" as Jeff called it.

Popular Demand

This... has changed a lot:

1

Q: Why isn't my display name on Meta SO the same as my display name on Stack Overflow?

My name appears as user138194 even if on Stack Overflow my name is vgv8. My account is associated with the one on Stack Overflow and Server Fault. Also when I visit stack overflow with my vgv8 name I don't see a "meta" link. How can I use vgv8 as my meta stack overflow name?

support linked-accounts usernames

George Marian

@sergiotapia This channel in particular? It's for chatting with participants in the community.

Sergio Tapia

15:36

THere are other rooms?

Shog9

@populardemand I (vgv8) like to edit things - why?

Popular Demand

I don't think its meaning is really in line with the original question anymore.

HoLyVieR

They should delete the comments related to the first question

jjnguy

I solved it!!!!

HoLyVieR

It's not relevant anymore

jjnguy

15:37

Give me upvotes!!!

Maybe...

Michael Mrozek

@populardemand Wow, I was completely confused for a minute there; I had voted on that question despite not recognizing it at all

jjnguy

he still has yet to do it...

Shog9

@populardemand meh. Original was a dup.

devinb

@jjnguy WOOO!

jjnguy

The user should come chat

that could be fun...

Michael Mrozek

15:39

@jjnguy He'd post one line, edit it continuously, and stop talking after the edit window passes

jjnguy

haha

George Marian

@sergiotapia Yes, there are. Though, they don't necessarily get much traffic. chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms

jjnguy

and then post a complaing on MSO (@MichaelMrozek)

Popular Demand

@shog9 why do you keep saying "I (vgv8)"?

HoLyVieR

I (HoLyVieR) think that saying I (InsertYourNameHere) is narcissist.

Michael Mrozek

15:43

I

agree

gravatar.com/avatar/…

devinb

I (awesome) think it is simply a way of creating clarity. So you know who is speaking.

balpha

@populardemand I'm very open to ideas for a different name than "pair off" -- we just couldn't think of anything good, short, and catchy

Michael Mrozek

Aww :(. For a minute I was dreaming of pasting my gravatar after every message I sent

balpha

other than "get a room"

devinb

"Pair off" isn't all that much better :p

"alone time", "private room"

Michael Mrozek

15:44

Victory

Popular Demand

@balpha "Private room <sub><sub>that anyone could barge in on at any time, and that will be in the data dump</sub></sub>"

balpha

@MichaelMrozek if the image link doesn't end with .png or the like, just prepend an exclamation mark

George Marian

@holyvier I (George Marian) disagree. Doing so may indicate a narcissist, but it isn't narcissistic itself.

devinb

I do like that it warns you. "Are you SURE you want to be alone with this person?"

4

Michael Mrozek

@balpha Oh, that would make sense. Thanks

devinb

15:45

Oh wait, you change the warning.

Popular Demand

But why would you want people to think that vgv8 is your sockpuppet?

Shog9

@populardemand I (vgv8) do not understand anything you're saying - please repeat it in greater detail, so that I may misunderstand/ignore it again!

Popular Demand

@balpha Looking at it again, there's enough room for "start new room with this user"; that's not so horrible.

balpha

hmm yeah. probably right. but that's so boring :)

George Marian

Well, so much it being a little cooler today.

devinb

15:48

@Shog9(vgv8) He is asking why you(vgv8) would want to pretend that "Shog9" (a well-known hated user) is actually you (vgv8)?

HoLyVieR

@Shog9 You should be aware that I (vgv8) has now over 20 meta reputation and can come in the chat.

devinb

@balpha "Speak discreetly"?

Shog9

@holyvier AWESOME!

balpha

@devinb well, it's not discreet -- the room is public

Popular Demand

@balpha How about "code 8C restricted," then?

jjnguy

15:49

He still has yet to fix his account name.

George Marian

@populardemand How about just "cyber with this user?" ;)

Shog9

someone invite him. Disguise a link to this room as an edit link.

devinb

"conference room"? "Meeting room"?

balpha

@populardemand much better

devinb

@balpha It STARTS discreet. Many things do.

Michael Mrozek

15:50

I think all those are less alarming than "pair off", which is sufficiently ambiguous to make people afraid to click it

devinb

@shog9 I'm not sure he would be able to handle it.

Shog9

@devinb Rubbish! Look how well he's handled MSO!

devinb

@michaelmrozek I was positively intruiged until I realized it only worked on chat.

@shog9 It occurs to me that he treats MSO like it IS chat. So he'd be fine.

balpha

there's a two minute edit window here

how would he talk?

you know he communicates via editing

devinb

He would use this

-------UPDATE 1 He would do this

-----------UPDATE 2 @balpha This is what he would do.

George Marian

15:52

shudder

Popular Demand

@MichaelMrozek not sure why I'm the model, but I like the text.

devinb

How can they suggest we pair off without checking our star signs?

Michael Mrozek

@populardemand When I think "pair off with someone", you automatically come to mind

HoLyVieR

"pair off" sounds like it's a dating website.

Michael Mrozek

I've often felt SO could benefit from incorporating as many aspects of online dating websites as possible

devinb

15:54

"Before asking you [C#] question, we would like to know if you like long walks on the beach"

HoLyVieR

lol

Michael Mrozek

Turn-ons: 10k+ reputation

Turn-offs: Poll questions

Popular Demand

@devinb You mean... our number of starred comments? Or the types of comments we like to star?

balpha

okay, wording is changed

devinb

@balpha You give in too easily. "Sidebar with this user" "Commune with this user" "Dialog with this user" "Kick all users but this one"

Lance Roberts

15:58

@waffles, are you there?

jjnguy

@LanceRoberts No

balpha

last seen 6 hours ago

Popular Demand

@devinb "Sidebar" is kinda nice.

Lance Roberts

thanks

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