→ 29 messages moved to Chimney

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar If there's a script I'd like to know about it ^^

@JourneymanGeek oh! O_o

stackapps.com/questions/7439/chat-move-helper-bot-cleanup-tool ;)

..... you have been doing this manually?

ahem

lol

I am a minimally tool assisted mod, but that and lost souls is automated for me

This is the perfect moment to sneak into that empty cardboard box, right?

Oh its fine

I don't have this installed on every machine I use

so sometimes I go manual too

I think there's another script floating around

Which reminds me

Can I just call this "slow moderation" and say it's a thing? :P

Taking the time to appreciate the moment...

I need to check with Glorfindel about the tool he uses to keep chat from freezing

click click click

"I prefer to moderate with a human touch"

yes!

"Artisanal moderation"

"Our moderation is done by a bunch of benedictine monks in the high mountains of the western ghats"

(which are not very high, and probably has no benedictine monasteries I know of)

We do have a chimney though

Well you live in a cold country

@JourneymanGeek It was supposed to be close to 40C today with humidex :P

I blame climate change :D

It's been quite cold in spring here so far though, almost ruined my garden and I waited longer than usual to buy the seedlings

I think 2 weeks ago we had one night where it was 10C

which is sort of unusual for this time of the year

0_0

At least we don't get these crazy changes in a matter of hours like they do in mountain areas

or the tropics

I've once left home and it was hot, had it rain cats and dogs on the way to work, and get broiled on the way to work

We've been getting more episodes of crazy heavy rain in the past years, I don't recall this happening often when I was a kid

Do you get much longer daylight during the summer?

not really

We're quite literally just a little off the equator

I checked my maps and landed on Gardens by the Bay... That's gorgeous! O_o

Its quite amazing

We used to bring the dog there. One of his great unrealised dreams was to pee on the super tree :D

whenever he got close enough tho, he couldn't see it and went around in circles :D

@JourneymanGeek lol

Its a bit 'planned' tho

like very organised and stuff, and the two greenhouses are nice

(we have another, older botanic garden which is nice too)

@JourneymanGeek yea I can imagine! It looks like something that could be out of a sci-fi book or something

o/

\o

@curious there are many, as it turns out. Each using a different script here to move messages. :D

@JourneymanGeek KennyBOT

Next message should be tomorrow, I think.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar Per your rollback summary here: no, the question is not related to the two issues in my answer. It's about two duplicated downvotes. The first of my two issues has to do with bookmarks and follows, while the second one has to do with the same user having both upvoted and downvoted once each as a result of account merges.

Per this staff comment, two duplicate identical up/down votes caused by account merges are being fixed.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog interesting, I see. Something is still off, but likely just me not getting to the bottom of this yet.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar Your rollback summary very specifically mentioned that my edit was invalid due to one of the two reasons mentioned in my answer. Which one of the two was it?

@bad_coder Just FYI, I feel that your comments on this post are getting a little rude. While I'm a bit biased here (I disagree with the viewpoint you expressed), I feel that your same points could have been expressed in a much nicer tone, and an unbiased third party would likely think the same.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog first (The same issue here (with account mergers....))

"Low quality" has a specific definition in SE context - when a post has grammar or formatting errors and those errors affect one's ability to read the post. Calling someone's post out as "low quality" when it doesn't fit that definition is very rude. If you feel it's of low quality, edit it to fix grammar or formatting issues rather than calling it out.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar If you read on, you'll see the whole paragraph only talks about bookmarks and follows.

Also, FYI if you're making edits when posting answers to qualify for badges, a moderator stated that such edits should be substantive.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog I don't think I was rude, it was a moderate comment on an incendiary post. The OP is argumentative, so the comments were still very moderate in proportion. If you disagree you can say why, at least that much is transparent and constructive.

Okay, yeah, the post is on the argumentative side. But the general policy of "don't fight fire with fire" still applies, even if it's only a small fire you're applying.

If "polemic mongering" is a thing (I've seen the native English speakers use more accurate expressions for it) that post is exactly that: polemic stirring, in a single word it's incendiary. I don't see any aim or substance besides that.

Well, but I didn't fight fire with fire. You can write 1 comment that states your opinion about the content, I frankly find the post offensive (in its intent and form) that's it.

If you find something offensive, just flag it for moderator attention and move on.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog but let me reverse the question: is there anything about that post that isn't aimed to be offensive? while trying to pass itself of as something else.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog well, not all CoC violations can be flagged. CM's have said that much, the most problematic users are the one that tiptoe around the CoC.

@bad_coder You did not merely write one comment doing so. You wrote a second comment calling out the post as "low quality" and I feel that's very rude. See my previous chat message regarding that comment.

@bad_coder There's an implicit rule against gaming other rules, so that's taken care of.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog no, if you take MSO for example (or even here) there's a long trackrecord of far more offensive stuff that doesn't get actioned. So I don't think that comment is out of the norm for what goes around usually.

If you feel the moderator team won't handle it appropriately, use the contact form. There's even an explicit option on it that says "I'd like to report a Code of Conduct violation".

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog yes I know that's the fallback... So?

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog do you think it works? How often would you think it works?

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog but wait.... Isn't there a lot (and I do mean tons, thousands of comments) that are a lot worst? Why not action that then? (I don't think my comment stands out...)

@bad_coder Just because something doesn't get moderated doesn't necessarily mean it's not allowed. That's a converse fallacy.

@bad_coder Comments FAQ: In reality, on most sites, many since-obsolete or guideline-violating comments don't end up being deleted due to the high volume of comments posted, but this does not mean that they can't or shouldn't be deleted in the future.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog no I don't think it's a fallacy, there are a lot of CoC violations that are kept around and allowed by choice.

@bad_coder Don't forget mods already have actioned on your comments a few times. We're not going to check if there's 'worse out there' before we do so.

Is not in our 'job description'.

New topic...

Anyone here been to Iceland?

I'm going there in early July and want to know how others' experiences were

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog but since you called me out then please explain to me how you agree with einpokuml's post.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog It's apparently way less icy than the name suggest, it's supposed to have whales, and there's a song festival movie about it :P But I've never been there.

@bad_coder What kind of weird demand is that? You can call someone out for being unkind in comments, while at the same time not agreeing with the post.

@Tinkeringbell it's not a demand, it's a request: I said please.

Looking at it, I think it's high time both of you put that to rest. You've written plenty comments on that post already, not all of them very nice ones.

Leave it alone, or it will become harassment.

@Tinkeringbell hey I'm sorry about that, everyone in that thread was argumentative. Lets not forget the back&forth dynamics.

Oh, I won't. If other people come in here and try to have the same discussion after I told them to stop, I will treat them the same.

@Tinkeringbell I've already experienced Denali in Alaska, and it's on the same latitude so I don't expect it to be much different. My parents haven't so it'll be a new experience for them.

I would say just plan it out like any other tourist trip, and you'll be fine :)

@Tinkeringbell it's a conversation between regulars having very different points of view. I don't see it as being heated in anyway, but ok. I'm logging out of the room.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog my wife has been with her school a whole while back

everything supposedly smells like sulfor

@bad_coder, I can't help but notice you are digging up all kinds of old posts to do minor edits etc. Is there any thought behind this?

@Luuklag In the most recent case they had posted an answer to it, and likely made the edit so they qualify as having "edited and answered" for badge purposes.

Ah someone already brought it up, then I'm going to leave it at that

Besides that I find it quite useless to answer posts that were tagged status-completed over 3 years ago.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog there's an established canonical saying to remove "thanks", "please", etc as a general rule. So if bumping you might as well get that, even if it's a single word... I don't really see anyone doing the contrary anywhere on the network.

@bad_coder There's also a rule against altering one's voice on the post. Your edit fell borderline on that.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog "altering one's voice"?! What's does that mean? Give an example of where I did that please.

@bad_coder Your rolled back edit here: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/230451/revisions

Anyhow, I'm traveling to London in three days, then immediately taking a train to Leeds where my cousins live. We'll be visiting the north of England then traveling to Iceland. Then back to London for a day, then onward to India. Finally, returning to southern California.

@Luuklag no, that's standard practice of removing "thanks" and "please"... Where is that canonical?

Yeah, please show me the post that says 'please' is no longer allowed.

Because I can't find it. "Thanks", signatures, chitchat, all fine. But if you ask a question and include the word please, I don't see any post that 'forbids' that.

I had trouble finding the post too. Perhaps your search skills are better than mine.

meta.stackexchange.com/help/behavior certainly doesn't mention 'please' as a forbidden word.

@Tinkeringbell it's a general guideline for salutations, not all words are enumerated.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog sounds like a great holiday

@bad_coder I wouldn't categorise "please" as a tagline or salutation...

@bad_coder None of that post refers to content paragraphs.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog top or bottom, I think that example edit it was the 3rd word from the top. Seems to qualify.

Calling the top content paragraph a tagline is like calling the tail of a horse its fifth leg.

@Luuklag well I don't know, but every editor I've seen on SO removes thanks and even on meta it's general practice to remove it.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog I think you're reading it wrong. taglines is 1 item in an enumeration, it's not just about taglines!

@bad_coder At the beginning or end of a question, when doing other edits as well, yes. Making that the sole edit to a post is already dubious when at the beginning or end of a post. Removing a single word in the middle of a post is really crossing the line, to me at least.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog comment is now deleted, what was it about?

Also from answer 2 to that post:

> I personally don't think that salutations and taglines alone justify an edit to removed them from a post. If the question or answer has other reasons to justify an edit, clean them up while you're in there. As a general rule of thumb for me, I don't think it's a big enough deal to justify an edit.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar Literally not much other than what I said

@Luuklag there's no canonical for your opinion, to the contrary most MSO canonicals say remove salutations even if it's the only item (general consensus, ask at SOCVR.)

@bad_coder I just disproven your point

@Luuklag no I don't think you did, or every SO editor is doing it wrong. Ask at SOCVR.

Not to mention it going against the prior message from @Tinkeringbell that edits to qualify for edit-and-answer-badges should be substantive

@bad_coder without knowing full context, "he did it too and didn't get any punishment so it's fine for me to do it" is basically wrong.

@bad_coder I don't see how SOCVR is authorative to MSE?

It's really late here, so leaving for now.

@SonictheSaveUkraine-hog USA, so around 2am?

@Luuklag I don't see how your personal opinions are authoritative.

Just struck 3

oh my, that's when I go to sleep as well.

Unless taking shower, then it's 3:30

I'm out, enjoy o/

\o

@Tinkeringbell sneaky vikings

named iceland (which is not icy iceland) and icy greenland greenland

@bad_coder I never said they were. I just quoted a highly upvoted post to substantiate "my opinion".

@Luuklag agreed, rolled back one just removing please from middle of sentence. I find it valid and more pleasant to read, so rolled back.

I agree with removing "Hello" from beginning and "Thanks" from end of posts, but removing the "please" from e.g. "Can you please fix it?" is just wrong.

Well

!!/coffee

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar brews a cup of espresso for @ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar

I see new trend of adding "This has been fixed" answers to old bug reports that, well, have been fixed. While it's good, better pay attention to not flood homepage with those.

Fresh bug reports/feature requests should get more attention than those.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar IMO, it would be a better policy to post answers to solved Qs within a week if staff mark it resolved but don't post an answer themselves. That way the search results would be less polluted with unanswered and unaccepted Qs.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar it's generally better to give posts closure by way of an answer when possible.

@bad_coder I don't have a problem with that

@Luuklag the quote starts by saying it's "an opinion" and links to an answer by Jon Skeet saying it'd be better to remove all noise. That's the going consensus on SO and virtually all edits I see do it.

Also

sigh

@JourneymanGeek thanks, it seems every time I do anything someone either picks an argument with me or says there's a rule I broke.

its worth remembering it isn't necessary to fix 'everything'

I mean if you come across a salutation removing it is fine, but eh, its worth sometimes being too 'letter of the rules' on meta

The please here is essentially part of how people write (heck, its part of a pattern of meta questions I use, and other people do as well)

@JourneymanGeek argh, I know although the "minor edits" guideline did suggest "everything"... That more or less "goes around" when talking about copy-editing. Lately things are changing on SO where meta and reviewers are starting to say "substantial improvement" is better than no improvement - I personally favor that stance, a lot!!

Sure but this isn't SO

So please remember they have their own culture

@JourneymanGeek also true, but if I have to take example of editing on MSE it's Glorfindel and PeterMortenson <- those guys know their editing. And they do overhaul posts.

And I sometimes get complaints about Peter :D

Don't edit an already bumped post because it's just 1 word... That just seems plain wrong and lacks some justification.

If it was just bumped ehhh

no foul

@JourneymanGeek Peter's the man. There's no 2 way around it!

@JourneymanGeek excellent! You know the best copy editors on SO don't even consider what they're editing..?! They just tend to mass whop posts into shape.

@bad_coder uhhh that's not copy editing

Peter does read posts - that's what 'active reading' is

Glorfindel automated fixing BROKEN LINKS

@JourneymanGeek yeah, they do read the posts... But if you're editing +100 posts/day you don't have much foresight to spend 5 minutes thinking if it will get closed or deleted.

eh, they should

But that's different from an edit that changes how someone chooses to express theselves

and sometimes one might edit anyway cause there's a potential to salvage a question that way

@JourneymanGeek I know, I respect the OP.

But here's the thing if you do a statistical analyses the keywords are a growing number even after all the editing. So if you start enforcing rules to not remove keywords... It's predictable the problem will just continue growing.

uh

don't

If you're doing statistical analysis you're over thinking things

@bad_coder Glorfindel mainly fix broken links, don't see him doing Peter style edits a lot.

@JourneymanGeek he did improve a lot by keeping to editing only posts that were bumped already, but also still polishing turds a lot.

yup

I think in his case its very much a "these things bother me"

like adding links to terms he didn't quite grok and had to look up

@JourneymanGeek that's automated, he has his own userscript and a lexicon of words and links.

it's public.

@bad_coder I think he also looks some stuff up

@JourneymanGeek every good writer does. Another oustanding linguist <- he looks up words and grammars lot, and I've never seen him get anything wrong.

@JourneymanGeek yeah that's fine, but when it's in off topic question that gets deleted after short while... just waste of time.

Its their time

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar that's bit of a mute argument, you don't see anyone giving folks who answers lots of dups a hard time? And those posts make more work for others than an editor doing his thing.

@bad_coder yeah pity he's not around a lot, and he doesn't make lots of edits on MSE.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar he posts whenever he has something to post about, but I like his posts on the other sites.

@JourneymanGeek sure, but it still look weird, and might give OP of the OT question wrong impression e.g. "Hey, it was edited, so maybe it's fine to ask here".

@bad_coder Again, life isn't that kind of fair. Just because someone else isn't called out doesn't mean users aren't allowed to call out your behavior as wrong if they see it happen and know where to reach you. And there are plenty of remarks against those users spread across meta's and chats too.

@bad_coder editing something just to have it deleted 6-8 later is 100% waste of time, answering lots of duplicates isn't.

@Tinkeringbell but there's no action (ok I've only answered 1 dup so far)... When you edit everyone gives you a hard time, when you answer dups no one pings you about it.

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar I think there is a post out there, floating around, about how it can be beneficial to edit posts from new users (if they could be made on-topic), as it increases their engagement with the post more than just closing/commenting for clarification. I've never been able to find that post when looking for it, and then when I'm not looking for it, I come across it again... XD

@Tinkeringbell I think that's a good argument in every perspective!!

@bad_coder Again, like I said, life isn't 'fair' like that. Just because no one pinged you about the one dupe you answered, doesn't mean they can't talk to you about your editing.

@bad_coder depends, if I'll see someone answering duplicates on purpose several times, I will comment.

@Tinkeringbell no I mean, you takes lots of antagonizing over editing. I mean lots... like unreasonable amounts, over the top. First requirement to be an editor is making it past the people who take issue with your edits.

Not really. First requirement to being an editor is actually improving a post.

@Tinkeringbell usually, it's submitting the suggestion and hoping the reviewer knows anything about editing.

I've had plenty of my posts edited where the edits were fine. If my first IPS post hadn't been edited, it probably would've tanked and I wouldn't be here now.

I would likely not be here if it weren't for the +2 on SO for editing...

Edits for spelling are fine (unless you go from British English to American English spelling). For grammar, mostly too, unless the grammar rules aren't crystal clear either (don't go adding Oxford comma's, for example).

Correcting markdown? Much appreciated. Fixing a broken link? Idem.

Anything else quickly becomes 'meh, what are you doing'.

I have to go, it's late o/ bye everyone.

@Tinkeringbell sounds like Shog

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar Could very well have been, but that didn't help either XD

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/25542912/birox

(Don't be gentle)

@Spevacus I see only one account here (on Ethereum)

@Spevacus hey, even spammers are humans! (Well, sometimes ;))

@ShadowWizardSaysNoMoreWar Yeah they spammed over on Stack Overflow, but a mod nuked that profile after I pinged JNat. Those darn SO mods and their flamethrowers.

:D

That's why I usually JNat'ing only when there are at least three accounts. :P

> At ten-years young, Chemistry isn’t collecting any rust, but if we were, we would know how to reduce it.

Cute.

Slight wording nitpick: "but if we were" should be "but if it were"

@Feeds onebox springing

@Spevacus maybe we are collecting rust?

maybe

What should be done with this question? It name-drops SO but it refers to the entire SE model. However, I'm not entirely sure what's being asked for. Is it asking for how it handles the editing workflow, or is it asking for a resource that can mimic that behavior?

I know that if I'm asking these questions I really should VTC as needing details or clarity, but it's profoundly unlikely that the OP would come back over 10 years later to fill in the details.

So... Like... Delete? Or...

→ 30 messages moved to Chimney