Tavern on the Meta

don't know... I kind of have trouble imagining living country where some basic things like healthcare, education, payed sick leave... and similar stuff are not available (or not available to all)

Rubiksmoose

@ResistanceIsFutile I live here and sometimes I have trouble imagining it as well

user400654

7:51 PM

it's not as bad as it looks in the grand scheme of things.... for most people.

the state gov has more of an impact on your day to day than federal

and even there, city/county moreso than state

obviously those who are unable to get the help they need are at a major disadvantage

M.A.R.

@user400654 what? This is not the impression I get from the news

For example, disproportionate penalties are given to black people more disproportionately in Republican states

This is what I've been led to believe

Rob

8:06 PM

Maison de Verre

The Maison de Verre (French for House of Glass) was built from 1928 to 1932 in Paris, France. Constructed in the early modern style of architecture, the house's design emphasized three primary traits: honesty of materials, variable transparency of forms, and juxtaposition of "industrial" materials and fixtures with a more traditional style of home décor. The primary materials used were steel, glass, and glass block. Some of the notable "industrial" elements included rubberized floor tiles, bare steel beams, perforated metal sheet, heavy industrial light fixtures, and mechanical fixtures.The design...

M.A.R.

@Rob Real honest building.

user400654

no, i think that is pretty much in... well, most states. there are few exception

some states recently have started getting better about it

but ultimately it's up to the states to make that happen

who gets elected POTUS doesn't really move the needle on that front, they can say whatever they want publicly but if the state doesn't support it... it's not gonna really do a whole lot

biggest thing they can do is raise/lower taxes

or regulate

Rob

@M.A.R. You may benefit from steel walls:

Baba Yaga

@Rob i read it backwards the first time

Sonic the Masked Werehog

8:25 PM

@Glorfindel Just letting you know, the recent changes to SE text styling broke your NSFW user script for viewing the contents of posts deleted as spam on the post itself. Can you please fix?

(To others: there's no NSFW content in that link, the name of that script is "NSFW")

Ollie

sdc coffee ShadowWizardWearingMask

SmokeDetector

@Ollie brews a cup of Espresso for @ShadowWizardWearingMask

Ollie

sdc tea

SmokeDetector

@Ollie brews a cup of jasmine tea for @Ollie

Ollie

8:40 PM

In light of my comment, "Does anyone know of any keyboard shortcuts to run a query in SEDE?": I found them - they're here: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/353558/…

ArtOfCode

Ctrl+Enter is always my first try :P

Ollie

@ArtOfCode why didn't you tell me then? :P

Unless you saw it in my answer and didn't know beforehand, my apologies.

ArtOfCode

@Ollie because I didn't see you ask :P

Rubiksmoose

1

A: Please revert the line-height change!

I’ve split the difference between the original 1.3 line-height and the proposed 1.6 line-height. We’re now at 1.5, with additional refinements to spacing between elements. I’ve also reduced line height within code blocks back to near the original value.

M.A.R.

9:02 PM

Good call!

@ArtOfCode Why?

Ollie

sdc tea Shadow

SmokeDetector

@Ollie brews a cup of darjeeling tea for @Shadow

Ollie

sdc coffee Shadow

SmokeDetector

@Ollie brews a cup of jQuery for @Shadow

Ollie

sdc tea Shadow

SmokeDetector

9:09 PM

@Ollie brews a cup of green tea for @Shadow

Ollie

sdc coffee Shadow

SmokeDetector

@Ollie brews a cup of Latte for @Shadow

Ollie

sdc tea Shadow

SmokeDetector

@Ollie brews a cup of green tea for @Shadow

@Ollie brews a cup of jasmine tea for @Shadow

Ollie

Going now

Ta!

sdc tea Shadow

SmokeDetector

9:09 PM

@Ollie brews a cup of jasmine tea for @Shadow

M.A.R.

Whoa, how many gallons can Sha take?

He's upgraded his system from the last time I remember

Maybe added trunk capacity?

Clears the mind of the thought of imagining that

John Dvorak

Unconsumed coffee is piling up Sha's desk. All but one will be cold come the time.

user400654

9:22 PM

i need a new userscript extension

this one is a pain to use

John Dvorak

Write a userscript to d... huh.

DavidPostill

Here is one of the papers on which the w3 recommendations are based.

lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jun/…

Note that it does not mention line spacing at all!

user400654

preferrably one that supports gists

using robo gist atm, it's good, but i have to manually create a regexp to match the urls i want it to affect.

DavidPostill

lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jun/…

This one doesn't either. Both of the papers only study font size and character spacing

> This SC does not dictate that authors must set all their content to the specified metrics. Rather, it specifies that an author's content has the ability to be set to those metrics without loss of content or functionality. The author requirement is both to not interfere with a user's ability to override the author settings, and to ensure that content thus modified does not break content

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill There's at least one user with reading difficulties that admitted the new spacing was better for them in another. I dunno why we're fixating on this issue anyway. Is there a source for whether the previous line spacing was optimal for all users?

How can we know that people aren't being distracted by it because it's new and not because it's subpar (especially compared to the previous option)?

DavidPostill

9:34 PM

@M.A.R. And there is as least one (ex) user with reading difficulties who has said that the new spacing was worse for them.

M.A.R.

People are now readily referring to the bigger spacing as "art". Something that looks good but might be indespensable for reasons of practicality. I don't see why that should automatically be the case.

@DavidPostill That reinforces my point: People are saying the new thing is bad or better, but humans have never been consistently scientific beings.

DavidPostill

5 hours ago, by DavidPostill

> Stack Overflow has again made an optional design change that's hostile to the vision-impaired & quickly rejected complaints. They say it's for cognitive disability; to those of us w/vision disabilities they're saying "write client-side overrides for yourself, again". Inclusion!

That was Monica.

M.A.R.

OK, it was Monica.

user400654

i mean... iunno.. this just all feels backwards

M.A.R.

How many people have read 100 lines or more of text with the new spacing and compared for themselves whether reading was any easier?

user400654

9:38 PM

major change that a lot of people will use userscripts to undo... for a smaller group... that coulda just used a userscript! :shrug:

M.A.R.

I'm not advocating for huge line spacing. It did look a bit off, and most of it because of the darn font. But it's been hugely overblown that it makes text look like separate paragraphs etc etc.

DavidPostill

The designers have said that W3 are specifying the requirement, but having looked at the W3 references cited in their guidelines line spacing is not mentioned. So where is it coming from?

M.A.R.

@user400654 We can nevertheless optimize the site for the betterment of all. There's again the assumption that 1.3 was the best line spacing.

DavidPostill

That's what A/B testing is for. SE just decided that W3 was right, without apparently bothering to check ...

M.A.R.

I don't wanna make it sound like I have a strong opinion either way, and that's mostly because I lack the expertise to opine expertly. But what you're suggesting is any line spacing would have been bad. 1.4 would have been bad.

And almost everyone is working with that assumption. I wanna see the evidence for that.

user400654

9:40 PM

yep

no i absolutely agree that there's a lot of aversion to change here too

that if left alone, most people who dislike it would give up.

see the home page

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill IIRC before they pulled any changes, they were asked something similar and responded with "it's too integral" or something like that, that testing wasn't feasible

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. No I'm not. I'm saying it was changed because reasons which are not backed up.

user400654

I personally use the home page for my primary method of browsing. Fortunately SO keeps me logged in 100% of the time so i never need to see it

M.A.R.

My personal experience, which I'd never cared enough about until this topic has been brought up, was that sometimes I confused the lines of a thoroughly verbose answer. They were too close for me. Granted, this was often when I'd already done a lot of reading.

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. Yes, but now it has been changed it can be A/B tested (they already changed it once from 1.6 to 1.5)

M.A.R.

9:43 PM

@DavidPostill Well, we're trying to get past that. The 'meta' issues that led to disagreement aside, is bigger line spacing good, or bad?

@DavidPostill Shrug

user400654

another comment somehwat related to the research -> meta.stackexchange.com/questions/353525/…

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. I've no idea whether it is better for users with cognitive disabilities. For me the change made it harder to read.

user400654

w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/C21.html ?

M.A.R.

@user400654 Exactly in-line with my thoughts.

user400654

?

M.A.R.

9:47 PM

@DavidPostill And, with all due respect, you don't know that. :) Neither do I. You'd know it if you were given a certain amount of time of your choice to read 50 posts with one line spacing, and 50 with another. How well your eyes and brain would cope with what's on screen would be as scientific as we can get about this

We're subject to a huge variety of biases, esp. with something as subtle as this

user400654

10:31 PM

am i missing something? this research consisted of 14 people with "low vision"?

From 2007, no less

Rob

11:27 PM

The W3 on this is easy to find, so the problem extends outside of SE; at least as far as part of this conversation. To meet legal requirements there are certain standards to be met, that's why the change. My comment in the answer concerning the spacing provided a solution for Almost everyone and the information was easy to find: deque.com/blog/… google.com/search?q=W3%20disabilities%20%22line%20spacing%22

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Ollie thanks for alll the drinks! :D

user1306322

that teal avatar seems popular today

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Wait, drama?

Should I take the popcorn out the closet?

user1306322

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@user1306322 huh? Same person with different accounts?

user1306322

11:38 PM

um yea probably, definitely not caching or anything of sorts :p

css spritesheet is also always 100% correct and not bork

actually it could also be gravatar messing up and giving everyone the same avatar, who knows, so many parties could have failed at this point

it's hardly surprising these days

unrelatedly, shout out to random users who fix other people's old code blocks for extra whitespace and other obvious code beautification even on old af posts

when I had that much entrusiasm I also planned to do such cleanups but fizzled out due to SO fatigue

not all is bad

user1306322

11:57 PM

related to recent news, interestingly, chat seems to have line-height of 1.5 in a single message (space between single-line subsequent messages is different)

idk if they touched chat though, I can't immediately tell if there was a difference

I could immediately tell with normal post texts though

was there a link to the studies referred to, on which this recommendation was based on?

I wonder if it has anything to say about serifness of the fonts in addition to everything

and perhaps for special people like me who have an unnatural hatred for font aliasing, what it has to say about pixellated fonts

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