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12:00 AM
Feeds agrees.
1 hour later…
1:03 AM
@Ro-ReinstateMonic-Alsop they are given the tiny morsel of "dark theme" and they jump for joy. It's almost a blessing that they don't know how good things once were.
Kids these days just play with TikTok and people whine about it being a national security threat (???).
Stormblessed, now it's a Review Fail.
1:44 AM
Don't worry so much, things could be worse.
3 hours later…
5:09 AM
Ben Popper on November 05, 2019

We’re back with another Stack Overflow podcast. This week our guest is Clive Thompson, journalist, programmer, and author of the book Coders: The Making of a New Tribe and Remaking of the World. He shares the secret to getting any developer to open up during an interview: ask them about the worst bug they’ve ever had to deal with.

The crew discusses Google’s declaration of Quantum Supremacy and tries to wrap their mind around qubits and superpositions. Ben mangles the pronunciation of ASP.net, Sara finds a name for her new pet snake, and Paul wonders how JFK would have pronoun …

2 hours later…
7:18 AM
@mag Morning!
!!/tea mag
@rene brews a cup of green tea for @mag
@rene brews a cup of Americano for @rene
7:28 AM
waves through all the smoke
21 messages moved to Chimney
8:05 AM
@Tinkeringbell brews a cup of Cappuccino for @Tinkeringbell
@ShadowThePrincessWizard if you can convince everyone to stop smoking....
@user58 Brown!
8:23 AM
@user58 actually I think most people here don't smoke anyway. Just a feeling... ;)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard No such command 'cupcake'.
9:02 AM
My wild guess that Microsoft is a solid buyer of SE has just increased stackoverflow.blog/2019/11/04/…
Actually they're a long time customer
@JourneymanGeek I dont doubt that
@aloisdgsaysReinstateMonica Actually they apparently literally bought a copy of the early SO codebase
wasn't it SE Enterprise?
@ShadowThePrincessWizard .....
9:17 AM
@aloisdgsaysReinstateMonica and that's good or bad?
@Hitodama well without SweetieBot I have to find alternatives...
in Shadow's Den, May 6 '15 at 7:14, by SweetieBot
~ One cupcake on its way for @Shadow Wizard ....
@canon thanks, I had missed that little gem in the dust. Upvoted.
9:31 AM
.... snarky question of the day....
Should we open a feature request for supporting Twitter as an OAuth login provider on the site?
@Hitodama please support the snark posted in 2011: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/74551/…
@rene you know, since having a Twitter account is getting increasingly important to actually see news, provide feedback....
With an automated About Me filled from their Twitter's profile? Looks good~
maybe we could also somehow tie the site rep to the number of Twitter followers?
I have no Twitter. My newspaper serves me well.
9:37 AM
not until we have Twitter.SE ... their rep only belongs to there
I have no newspaper. The news sucks anyway.
"theregister has been around since 1994 and they have ~100k followers on their twitter account. I wouldn't exactly call them unreliable." Then you must think Kanye West (29.3M) is a better source than the Encyclopedia Britannica (26K). Twitter follower count means nothing. — Cerbrus 1 min ago
Relevant to current discussion
Doing counter-snark is hard...
@Cerbrus Who said that about the register?
They're a news site, you can't call them reliable or unreliable
9:43 AM
Follow the link
the only way they'd be unreliable, is if they said they're reported on something they hadn't?
Yea, you can call news sites unreliable
whoops, missed the link haha
my reading is unreliable
Fake news, fake numbers, having "Fox" as a name, being based in China...
9:44 AM
@Cerbrus Don't tell me you don't agree. We should leave moderation to >10k followers Twitter users.
@Hitodama Good luck watsching the site burn :P
@Cerbrus aren't we already doing that lately?
A little too much if you ask me
@Cerbrus but in this case nothing the register did/said is 'unreliable', it's simply biased towards the only source of infomation.
@Hitodama reminds me of this
9:48 AM
Some users seem to be putting too much effort into fueling the fire... It's getting annoying seeing certain usernames all over the place, which is turning unrelated discussions into SEpolitical discussions...
@djsmiley2k-CoW Semantics
@Cerbrus INTO THE SUN.
@Cerbrus .... that's a terrible argument.
Man, woman, child, unicorn.... pfft Semantics
@Cerbrus The tire fire is still burning
Unreliable suggests false/incorrect/unproven infomation.
... This guy called that site reliable because of the site's twitter follower count, when being accused of portraying only one side of the story
@mag And until SE/The Mods/Someone puts their foot down and starts punting people directly into the sun, it'll continue
9:50 AM
That reliability statement is a terrible argument
One we don't have to take seriously
@JAD ..... this... makes sense.... Someone, quick, check if there is a "Twitch Plays Stack Overflow" live broadcast somewhere!
We're not calling the site unreliable. We're disputing the "Twitter count === reliability"
@djsmiley2k-CoW but where does blindly copying single sources come in here?
is that doing your due dilligence as journalist?
I'm calling the register unreliable
the job they did was shoddy at best
@Cerbrus sorry, I am just somehow annoyed that we (as in: the company) continue to use Twitter as the new news/announcements/polls channel
9:53 AM
As always, if there is an alternative Q&A site that as strict high-quality as SE, then let me know.
@MetaAndrewT. There's one project where some people are attempting to build a SE clone, but better
... It's not gonna be successful, but whatever
That name is new to me
@Cerbrus unless the next step in SE and Microsoft patnership is SharePoint integration, in which case " an alternative Q&A site that as strict high-quality as SE" will surely arise, if only because adding SharePoint will drop the quality to negative figures.
That's some assumptions there...
And a massive load of speculation
10:00 AM
@Cerbrus no, just knowledge of the Beast. I am unlucky enough to be a SharePoint dev.
You are making assumptions about integration and how that would work. If that would even ever happen
Which is pointless to discuss
@Cerbrus to be fair... I was making a joke. Sorry if that was unclear, I guess.
@Cerbrus that comment is rude to Kanye West ;)
Yea... Jokes don't work that well in chat
@rene Eff Kanye West
@Cerbrus correct
10:03 AM
@Hitodama I thought there already was a SharepointSE?
@JAD the joke was that they would try to integrate Stack Exchange in the SharePoint wiki site template
which, if my memory serves, has a forum like structure and "Likes" instead of "Votes"
And Meta can move to MSDN Forums. It will be awesome!
@rene at least it would solve the problem of link only answers that point to MSDN pages.
Also, think of the opportunities! The swag! The kitties
Imagine the new prizes! Get 100k rep and win an MVP award!
10:12 AM
@MetaAndrewT. Doodle Exchange
@ShadowThePrincessWizard a place to ask question about free hand circles?
10:37 AM
@Cerbrus Unfortunately unless they seriously cross the line there isn't much we can do
we didn't start the flamewar ~~~
it was always burning since the world's been turning
@JourneymanGeek at least not without causing even more uproar
Well the fine line between passionate critique and being mean sometimes gets jumped
Just call me passionate ...
a passion flower
10:46 AM
a passion fruit
10:56 AM
@Hitodama and about Doodles
@JourneymanGeek Yea, I know... That's what makes it that annoying.
@JourneymanGeek We need better lines ;)
@Tinkeringbell Oh, you know roughly what I've been up to :D
... free-hand red lines!
@Tinkeringbell line of people!
11:02 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard neh... even better ones :)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard you stole that from @MetaAndrewT. .
@Tinkeringbell no! All my lines are original art work. :D
@ShadowThePrincessWizard not enough lines... and better one...
11:04 AM
@MetaAndrewT. one line is enough, crossing it makes you go to jail. :D
Now we need a place to put that red, free hand line. Any thoughts?
Tour is always the best place to start!
That's a different free hand line.
I can see it.
No it's the same
11:10 AM
Hmmm. But where in the tour to put it!
which reminds me... that it's possible to add images on Tour & Help Center, but I don't think it has ever happened...
nah, that's fake too :P
Rotated and stretched, but same line. ;)
Spoiler: apparently Tour & Help Center support full markdown, so it also support spoiler block...
11:13 AM
If you rotate and stretch something, it'll still be the same thing. No? :D
@MetaAndrewT. lol
11:24 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard that's what I told Tink, and she still doesn't want to take part in my LHC experiment.
11:37 AM
@Bart your LHC experiment might move some cheese around, e.g. place her beak in a different place. While same parrot, doubt it's comfortable to eat when your beak is on your back.... :D
11:52 AM
can one of y'all mods do something about
think this is the second time someone tried to create it
Either blacklist the tag, or warn those who try to put it more than once.
We can't blacklist the tag without a CM
So? Are we short on CMs? Oh, right, we are ...
@rene nah, sure our dear @JNat can help blacklist a tag, if he'll agree to the reasoning.
Without network spammers around, he should have some time to spare. :P
Actually, I cannot blacklist tags. Only Shog and Jon can do that
How's that??
There are some tools not all of us have access to
Guess we'll have to employ JNat as a 24/7 tag watcher...
12:05 PM
@JonE isn't pingable here... :(
@ShadowThePrincessWizard you don't need to ping either of 'em
I can relay the message
@JNat I didn't think there were seperate CM permission levels
But it would be appreciated if you can get monica-gate blacklisted.
welp, not all of us know how to play around with regex, for instance ;)
in any case, we've been thinking we need to audit all of these tools, and figure out what we should all access, etc.
@JNat cheers! So can you please ask them (nicely! ;)) to blacklist the tag? Thanks!
will do
12:07 PM
(better prevent users from using it than having to suspend them at some point)
kind of explains how Shog has access to many devs thingy :O
I don't think the tag situation really requires a blacklist just yet...
blacklist *-gate :p
@Cerbrus better kill it while it's young
12:09 PM
Why? Two users added that tag in what amount of time?
Let's not blow things out of proportion here.
@Cerbrus I count on Shog/Jon to make the judgement call.
it breaks the website though :/
12:11 PM
I was just about to say that, @MetaAndrewT. :P
@Cerbrus is that not what we've been doing for the last 2 months or so? :p
@mag 𝕴 𝔰𝔱𝔦𝔩𝔩 π”₯π”žπ”³π”’ 𝔱π”₯π”žπ”± π”Ÿπ”²π”±π”±π”¬π”« π”―π”’π”žπ”‘π”Ά - π”­π”©π”’π”žπ”°π”’ 𝔑𝔬𝔫'𝔱.
@Cerbrus Hmm, pi :D
@Hitodama the font typeface is now wired to my brain that it's instantly readable... hmm, weird...
12:27 PM
@Hitodama You monster
@JourneymanGeek We should write you a script that automatically undoes such fonts ;)
@JourneymanGeek you prefer the five lines long tags?
well, at the very least, tags can be synonymized...
@Tinkeringbell or we should mix Fraktur and Zalgo.
@Hitodama You monster
12:29 PM
@Hitodama And make a script that automatically undoes it? Sounds feasible :P
Good answer, @Tinkeringbell.
I've updated mine slightly to reduce the implication that all cards should be out in the open :-)
Thank you :)
was just talking about that question in another room.
Been thinking about posting a reply. Probably won't do it
12:48 PM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Listen to that song, and you will understand why the room is now called that way.
Zoe did :P
@Tinkeringbell well, I hope I didn't describe anything secret about TL
@Hitodama if you'll make @Bart listen I promise to instantly listen too. :D
Because I''ve always been cautious not to say anything about this case, due to this precise matter of "the missing link"
(But I do plan to listen at some point. Really! ;)) @Hit
@MetaAndrewT. It's hard... Because every time anyone talks about the TL and what happened in there... it's another 'fact' on the pile of 'things stated about the TL' that people can put their own interpretations on. But I think these comments are good.
@MetaAndrewT. I think this is my first answer on the whole thing because of that too (or at least, it's a major reason I've been mostly silent)
12:51 PM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard to what?
@Bart you only have to claim to have listened to this and Shadow will be morally obliged to listen to it too... just saying...
watching @Bart scratching his head
@Hitodama listening right now
it is not that I am suggesting you should lie just so that Shadow will have to listen to it but... you know... we can't know if you really listened to it....
.... sorry, @ShadowThePrincessWizard. Guess you will have to endure that, now :P
At least now I know shiny apples sometimes come with worms.
12:55 PM
.... I guess you really listened to the song then.
@Shadow, you are next.
@Hitodama it won't make my playlist, but it's catchy.
@Bart basically, the story of Meta.
@Tinkeringbell And that even the folks there at the time are entirely unsure to what actually happened
The what happened is clear... the why is not. No?
1:03 PM
Yeah, that's probably a better way to phrase it... though even the 'what' is a bit fuzzy if you further than 'Monica got unexpectedly demodded'
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Shog and I agree this doesn't warrant blacklisting at this point
@JNat thanks, fair enough. If it will escalate (e.g. users will use the tag many times) I'll update you.
Maybe it also warrants a meta post... hmm...
Don't draw too much attention to it
@Cerbrus those who would use it know it's possible already.
Not everyone that would add that tag has thought of adding that tag
1:06 PM
@Tinkeringbell the rest is non relevant history at this point anyway. :)
Don't give people stupid ideas by discussing something that doesn't need to be discussed.
Just custom flag if you see it
Then roll back
@JourneymanGeek nah I'll just remove it.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard There's already a meta post discussing tagging things, and the user answered that already :)
@Tinkeringbell oh, nice.
1:07 PM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard meta.stackexchange.com/questions/337237/…, link if you're interested.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Some folks may need extra demotivation 🀣
@Cerbrus Too late :(
@JourneymanGeek well if I'll see same user adding the tag repeatedly and/or having edit war over it, then yeah I'll flag.
@Cerbrus there's a comment mentioning the existence of the tag, should it be flagged as NLN?
@MetaAndrewT. LAN is more fun
1:19 PM
Time to pull back before I lose control and go full on the meta drama~
@MetaAndrewT. You sure? :P
Been there, done that...
1:41 PM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Why blacklist the tag? Because it acts like a drama magnet? Isn't it useful to categorize all these posts together though? Also, people can choose to ignore the drama by ignoring the tag, right? So what benefit in blacklisting?
because we still try to focus on the behavior, not the user? we don't have or someone else either...
Hmm, true. On the other hand, the tag isn't about Monica per se, but about the situation triggered by how SE handled her. But would another tag like be OK?
I'm just thinking it might indeed be useful to organize these questions together
Me neither. Just thinking out loud.
I agree a single tag might be proper, but dunno which.
Think there are some good suggestions in the post @Tink linked to before...
1:46 PM
I think something like might work. We can then make all the Monica* ones synonyms.
... nah, this is meta-tag...
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Oh, nice. I completely missed that.
First we need to find a proper name for this whole crisis. One that pops to mind is "The Big Exodus of 2019", so exodus-2019 might fit. :) — Shadow The Princess Wizard Oct 31 at 11:19
The word "exodus" is pretty neutral, it describes the fact of mass leaving.
I've been using different names à la Big Bang Theory episode titles.
@terdon because that specific tag is somehow offensive and in a way it seems to be yet another mockery against Monica. If we really need a tag, make it something that doesn't seem to be taken from some random term a gossip newspaper made.
1:51 PM
@Hitodama MonicaGate is also used to refer to this sometimes, and yes... that seems a bit too much to have as an undertone in such a tag.
OK, that's fair. I get annoyed at the overuse of -gate anyway. I thought you all were objecting to the general idea of having a single tag.
Here's some I've used in chat:
The Monica Insufficiency
The Monica Singularity
The Monica Meltdown
Not suggesting them as tags, of course :)
I'd still avoid naming based on the idea of 'focus on behaviour, not users'
But I kinda like "The Monica Insufficiency". Like "We need moar Monica!"
@terdon Yeah, if we can avoid 'gating' this, I'm happier too :)
@Tinkeringbell Sure, those aren't tags. But possible names for the Monica Event.
1:53 PM
Not everything in the current crisis is about Monica and her firing.
@Tinkeringbell highly doubt it? It's about Watergate
The Watergate scandal was a major American political scandal, lasting 1972 through 1974, that issued from the apprehension and arrest of five men in process of burgling the Democratic National Committee (DNC) headquarters at the Watergate office complex in Washington, D.C. on June 17, 1972, and the subsequent attempts by President Richard Nixon to cover up any involvement his administration had in such trespass. With the five arrested burglars examined, and a conspiracy discovered – chiefly through the work of a few journalists, Congressional staffers and an election-finance watchdog official...
> array of clandestine and often illegal activities undertaken by members of the Nixon administration
It's always Gatinggate!
So I can see the point of comparing SE to "Nixon administration", in a way, but still... too much.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard From my link: The wide reporting of the scandal led to criticism of the press for over-coverage.[8][9][10] The scandal is sometimes referred to as "Monicagate",[11] "Lewinskygate",[12] "Tailgate",[13] "Sexgate",[14] and "Zippergate",[14] following the "-gate" construction that has been used since Watergate.
1:54 PM
The tag you proposed, "monica-gate", is a loaded term. It presupposes wrong doing. Although I and many others believe SE has done wrong, discussing the events should not presuppose that is so. And arguably not all of what SE has done was wrong. — Raedwald 44 mins ago
No -gate tag is good.
@Raedwald That too... the question discussing a possible tag states "sometimes they are about licensing, legal issues, reinstating Monica, code of conduct, pronouns, etc."... good luck finding one tag that suits them all? :|
seems nice and neutral.
@Tinkeringbell hmm... still, I prefer to have good faith in those who tried to use the tag on SE.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Oh, not saying that everyone is aware of that... but it's something to keep in mind too as to why this tag isn't very suitable...
1:57 PM
@terdon but not enough to describe the magnitude of the events. The firing/demodding alone is small part of it.
@Tinkeringbell ?
Always relevant
cough meta tag cough
@terdon +1 but don't do that...
1:57 PM
when in doubt, ...
@Tinkeringbell Oh good grief, no! Only a joke.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard No such command 'joje'.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard No such command 'joke'.
@MetaAndrewT. Perhaps or then... they've been used as alternative topics throughout all of this ;)
@terdon Good :)
1:59 PM
@Tinkeringbell - as in here
A danger of tagging is that it can be used to frame the discussion.
Yep, finding a neutral tag is going to be hardest. Have there been earlier posts about moderator demoddings and what tags did those use?
Framing: Was the current crisis started by firing Monica? Or is it just another stage of the Welcome Wagon? Or of SE's failure to address anti LGBT posts/comments?
@Raedwald Yes, yes, and yes.
@Raedwald Do not tempt me to answer to that question again. Have done it multiple times already. Short version: IMHO, it is the second option you said - which is a consequence of option three - or the more general "failure to moderate rude content" fourth option that started FAR before many realize.
A floating head once said he doesn't get why people are surprised when rude content on chat gets moderated....
2:09 PM
@Raedwald Very good point. I've seen multiple let's say ill-advised attempts to label this whole thing even in posts and they always get it wrong. Though, to be fair I don't think the attempts in the posts I've seen were an attempt to come to a neutral and fair label and largely had an axe to grind.
Points a thumb at a huge pile of dull axes behind him
@Raedwald I think those are all aspects of it, but different people are angered by different sides. For example, I never had much of an issue with the welcome wagon, I really hate what they did with the licensing and I'm incensed about how they treated Monica.
I don't see much point in a global tag trying to collect all grievances against SE.
Oooh! I think you've just found the tag though XD :P
"There are no questions tagged " Orwellian!
I don't really care much about the relicencing. Yes, it's illegal. Yes, it demonstrates how little the company trusts its community or its team of lawyers, if they even have one. But whom does the license change actually harm?
2:17 PM
@JohnDvorak I worry that it is the first step towards moving to a restrictive non-copyleft license.
If they can arbitrarily change from one license to another, what's to stop them from changing to a full blown closed-source one?
Then it'll be time for a class action lawsuit
The progression so far is pretty scary. 1) New rule to make users lose their right to take SE to court in a class action suit => 2) License unilaterally changed.
@JohnDvorak um...
@JohnDvorak I think Tim actually answered the licensing post to say that lawyers were involved with the decision?... Why would you still think the thing is illegal, is there that little trust left? :(
SE now tracking users and showing evil ads. Everything points to a road at the end of which is a full blown evil tech company that could easily claim to own all of my content.
2:20 PM
I'm not convinced they actually convinced a team of lawyers, even knowing they said they did.
@Tinkeringbell Well, yes. Of course. There is no trust left at all. SE have basically broken every single promise they ever made. "We will never discuss private things in public" broken. "We will never show animated ads" broken.
> Who owns the rights?
If the publisher, then can relicense under 4.0 as specified above.
If the contributors, then need permission to relicense. Without permission (via terms of use or otherwise), then that content remains under prior version. [If this is the case, see the section below about dealing with mixed-version content.]
Took from here. This is the central source users seem to be pointing to.
And the legality is at the very least suspect. There are very valid concerns raised by many users, all of which have been ignored. SE claim their lawyers signed off on it but i) we have no way of knowing that is true and ii) corporate lawyers "signing off" doesn't mean "it's legal" it simply means "the risk of a lawsuit is low". So it could just be "we tricked them into opting out of their legal rights, so there's nothing they can do".
mixed-version content..? I wonder if a browser (extension) will show warning to this too...
To be more precise, it is not really like I care about the license change.
2:25 PM
It's not a hill many care enough about to die on. Doesn't mean they don't care at all
@JAD incomplete message, see next :P
It's the general principle this establishes that's scary: SE can blithely change the licence to whatever they like.
So, what changed from 3.0 to 4.0 that makes the license incompatible?
There would be more backlash if the license change was bigger than a version number
@Cerbrus It's a different version, therefore different license, therefore you need the license owner's permission to change it. C'est tout.
2:27 PM
@Cerbrus That isn't relevant. The point is that you can't change the license without asking for permission from the copyright holder (users). And that's basically impossible. So either you stick with the old license or make mixed licence content or figure the impossible and get consent.
Yea, mosquito, elephant...
As I was saying before, I don't care about the license by itself. But, as pretty usual, we are somehow being handwaved with a "nothing to see here" and if someone points out that something IS changed they are pointed out as nitpicking, toxic, meddling kids (Scooby would be proud). And that is the thing that thicks me off here.
IANAL, so no idea how. Perhaps you can send an email to all users with "if you don't reply in 5 days, we will take that as assent to changing the license"?
@terdon I suspect that wouldn't be legal
And it doesn't even work for anonymous contributors
@JohnDvorak And would inevitably be stopped by a single troll and/or user with legit concerns.
2:30 PM
Not even sure SE can glean my email from my Google login
Maybe "if you disagree with the license change, click this link and we'll dissociate all your contributions from you and relicence them anyways."
Dunno. But it does look like relicensing without consent breaks the license.
@JohnDvorak You can check that with a GDPR request
@JohnDvorak the only anonymous contributor is anonymous editor... posting as a guest still needs email address though
Edits are still contributions
2:33 PM
@MetaAndrewT. It does?
Also I think that's only true for SO proper
on Anime.SE (and other SE that allows guest posting)
Huh, yes. Although presumably you can just give [email protected] or whatever and get around that.
It's probably safe to assume you've already entered your email address elsewhere, any way.
No, actually. SE is one of the very few places that I trusted enough to use one of my main emails.
I really which I hadn't now.
2:39 PM
"elsewhere" as in on SE, aside from using google to login
I generally use my gmail account for everything that isn't official business (like insurances / government).
Gmail has a pretty darn good spam filter :D
@Cerbrus It's been pretty terrible for me very recently, lots of valid emails that Google classified as spam
I'll have a quick look at my spam folder
I had no idea I had familiy in Nigeria o.O
@Cerbrus Royalty even?
2:46 PM
You know it
@Glorfindel thanks for finding that dupe of my question. I swear I looked for a significant amount of time trying to find it.
3:22 PM
... Does this make sense to anyone? Or it is just free snake oil?
I can't see how changing the CC version would possibly achieve that
@JohnDvorak only way I could see is that if the change is invalid, then the content would still be 3.0, in which case re-posting it claiming it was licensed as 4.0 would be invalid to. But in that case, SE is in a bad spot even before someone thinks to move the content elsewhere.
but... that doesn't seem to be what the writing there implies, so I think that the comment is indeed wrong on that point
And even then, "I license this repost under CC4" - "Ha, we tricked you! We actually licence it as CC3!" "Well then, I licence this repost under CC3, and I'll warn everyone that your licencing ancilla is BS"
@JohnDvorak exactly
... and if SE decided to sue for invalid reposting because of version mismatch - and it didn't get swept off the table immediately, or rejected because the poster was acting in good faith - the poster could then countersue for deception
3:31 PM
yep, I don't know why that comment was made.
3:56 PM
@Hitodama afaik that is plain nonsense.
@Bart As I said, that was my first assumption too.
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