Tavern on the Meta

Journeyman Geek

13:00

@Mgetz actually was thinking about the whole concept of an ombudsman. Jon talked about it a few times

Finding someone neutral would be difficult

Mgetz

The point stands, moderators and CMs are not impartial parties. That said they should have a say on if they feel they can work and trust with the RM

Magisch

They seem to like binding arbitration so much. Why not that

hire one of the people from the arbitration firm they use on retainer to sort these sorts of messes

Mgetz

I guess the point is that the new process for all it's a process is largely a sham show trial system

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch arbitration for mod removal.... Hmmm

Actually not a bad idea

user194636

sounds arbitrary 😁

George Stocker

13:03

@Mgetz I'm not of a mind to ask for third party arbitration, as I don't think it will solve the problem. I have some useful ideas on how to fix this situation; but in order for that to happen the people at Stack Exchange inc have to want to fix the trust issue with the community.

Magisch

wikipedia has a whole comission for admin removals

David A

@Magisch Or you can just whine to connections in the T&S department and have them unilaterally remove someone without giving a reason.

Magisch

this process reads like creating a paper trail nobody gets to see you can claim exists to placate the masses

2

@DavidA look how that blew up

Mgetz

@GeorgeStocker Honestly nor am I. I think it would be better if SE just acknowledge that they can fire a mod at will and aren't bound to give a reason. Pretending due process is worse than none at all.

user194636

I can only assume they never read the mod agreement

Magisch

13:04

@DavidA And they're about to summarily lose their ability to do anything like it in the latest meta RFC. In essence the community is restricting their banning privileges in response

Mgetz

@Magisch which has been bypassed and overriden

Magisch

I think next time they try to do that the CEO or the T&S director gets fired

David A

We just need to take over the WMF and vote out all the normies that want to go to conferences all year long.

Raedwald

T&S = ?

user194636

trust & safety?

Magisch

13:06

fram may not have gotten his bit back but the WMF surely put itself on thin ice

I can't see the next batch of arbs to be company friendly, and neither the next batch of stewards

David A

Trust & Safety. It's a group that basically exists to preserve the ability of certain people to feel safe.

Stevoisiak

WMF?

Mgetz

@Magisch I doubt it, the fact of the matter is the company can operate how it wants when it wants. It is not bound by any such agreements and no formal contracts were signed.

Stevoisiak

Is that the Wikimedia Foundation?

David A

Yeah

Magisch

13:07

@Mgetz The wikimedia foundation derives its privileges from the community

George Stocker

@Mgetz Seeing the initial version of the removal process solidified that in my mind there hasn't yet been that recognition from the SE team that there is a trust issue and that this process continues to hurt that trust. Also that they didn't engage moderators to help created it. They handed us a draft, said "give us your thoughts", and didn't take our issues into account.

Magisch

if the consensus in the current RFC is they can't ban people anymore, then they literally cannot ban people anymore

George Stocker

That's also what pushed me over the edge to resign. Things aren't going to change until SE inc changes how it views the problem.

2

David A

They're probably going by audience numbers which are likely unaffected by the meta noise.

Stevoisiak

@DavidA The drop in moderators seems like it would be a damage over time issue

David A

13:09

All I know is that there's no limit to the harm you can do to yourself when you're 100% convinced you're correct.

Magisch

@GeorgeStocker The problem is even with all the resignations nobody seems to care

rene

@GeorgeStocker that .. doesn't sound hopeful ...

Magisch

not even a tiny bit

George Stocker

I spoke with someone last weekend at my daughter's soccer game who visits stack Overflow regularly. they saw a blip of the issue, but they don't really visit meta, and they don't really know what's happening.

Magisch

if they did we would have seen something that isn't PR speak by now

Stevoisiak

13:10

I'm really surprised this event didn't have more news coverage

George Stocker

I work with clients who use Stack Overflow every day. None of them have peeped up and said, "hey, I saw that you were a moderator, and that you resigned."

this really is a localized "invested community" issue.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker that requires.... Long range thinking

terdon

@Mgetz actually, SE's right to fire mods at will is enshrined in the mod agreement.

Journeyman Geek

That's literally been in short supply imo

Mgetz

@GeorgeStocker I think there might be at the CM level, but I don't think it extends beyond that. I think there is a bunker mentality above that.

Journeyman Geek

13:11

@terdon and it's happened before

Just quietly

George Stocker

@Mgetz Let me be clear. Every. Single. One. Of the CMs I've talked to really 'gets it'.

I've spoken to a lot of CMs.

I mean really gets it.

Mgetz

@GeorgeStocker yep... it's not them I'm worried about, it's the people that should really really be listening to them

Stevoisiak

When this first blew up, I debated sending the story out to tech news sites. I decided against it since a moderator's personal image is involved

George Stocker

@Mari-LouA I like to think of it this way: With the decade of public footprint Shog, Tim Post, et. al., have; if they could reach out and improve things, they would have done so. We know this because we can go through their history and see past examples of how they've done so. Something happened that we're not privy to that caused them to stop being able to help make things better. It's evident from their public answers and the shift and tenor of Stack Overflow Inc., in general. — George Stocker Oct 15 at 14:29

terdon

Yeah, the CMs actually know the sites and the community. Apparently, loads of folks working at Stack Overflow Inc. don't even know the term SE.

Stevoisiak

13:13

I didn't want to damage their public reputation any more than they've already been damaged

I have an email list from back from when I volunteered managing social media

Journeyman Geek

@terdon and tbh there is no real push to.

Which is a bit of a cultural problem :/

Raedwald

One thing I've learned over the decades is that "manager types" hate technical people. "Manager type" people want obedience because they have a position high up the org. chart, and all beneath them should do what they are told. Technical people want things to be done the "right" way, and have no respect for seniority, only for technical competence and being right.

Feeds

The Stack Overflow Podcast – Episode #125: ~Tilde Club~ and Mechanical Keyboards

Ben Popper on October 22, 2019

Welcome back to the another episode of the newly rebooted Stack Overflow podcast. This week we’ve got a very special guest, Cassidy Williams of React Training. Cassidy is a coder, mechanical keyboard enthusiast, and prolific Twitter comedian. She also curates our newsletter. On this episode, we talk about Paul’s career as a a club promoter, Ben’s brush with terrifying bitcoin spam, and Sara’s favorite Kanye tweet. Enjoy, subscribe, and leave us a rating if you like the show. …

Journeyman Geek

Funny thing is there are good technical managers

Mgetz

@terdon I'm reminded of a conversation with someone that deals with several major computing hardware vendors who said that VPs at some vendors don't actually know what their company actually does.

Journeyman Geek

13:19

They're just terrible at politics

Raedwald

@JourneymanGeek They tend to be junior managers, not senior managers.

Mgetz

and you see this with their flailing strategies

Journeyman Geek

Lol. My dad was one

Retired as a VP for engineering somewhere a lot bigger than SE o suspect 😁

@Mgetz I don't know what my company does 🤣

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek That should be a bit scary

Stevoisiak

Something from my favorite manager: when they saw I had daily meetings on my calendar, they asked "Do you find these meetings helpful? If no, why are you going to them"

They trusted me to know what work would be productive

Had nothing at all to do with their technical knowledge

terdon

13:23

@Raedwald I've spent most of my adult life in academia, but I'm working at a startup now, and I'm lucky enough that all managers are also techies. Including the CEO. There are exceptions!

In fact, I think SE is one. Most of the higher ups have a technical background AFAIK.

rene

@Stevoisiak but ... meetings! ... how am I going to be in control otherwise? I need someone to tell me what I don't know and don't understand. And probably never will.

Magisch

13:53

friendly reminder we don't talk about specific staff members here

It is better if we avoid this line of discussion alltogether and friendly-bin this

user310756

can we get some flags on this meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336177/…

Catija

@terdon I have 204 hours of unused parental leave and 196.8 hours of vacation time to prove it!

Cerbrus

There's no "I agree" flag.

user310756

@Catija ^^ the comment above

terdon

@Catija I'm not surprised :)

Catija

13:58

And the parental leave expires tomorrow.

user310756

@Catija :(

user310756

@Catija you're doing a great job.

user310756

I hope you're doing ok

Magisch

Time for the friendly bin

LinkBerest

Eh, I'm okay with that Magisch - George put it better then I could anyway (I'd link to a chat message but really its several of them)

Mgetz

13:59

@Catija so what you're saying is you can take a nice sabbatical?

user310756

@Magisch can we have an really unfriendly - chew people up - stomp on people bin?

Magisch

no

this is a civil chatroom

Gwideon

hello

Magisch

there is only the friendly bin and the friendly but disappointed bin

user310756

@Magisch erm it was a joke Mags.. I think you've forgotten who I am

Mgetz

14:01

@Magisch good because if it was a criminal one I'd need a lawyer

Gwideon

um what's been happening on meta

user310756

@Gwideon hi

Mgetz

@Gwideon a nuclear meltdown

Gwideon

how

user310756

@Gwideon same ole.

Gwideon

14:01

ahhhh

welp in that case I should probably not engage a ton

Cerbrus

@Gwideon Nothing new

LinkBerest

anyway, I'm out for now - ping me if you need me - but I'm not going to (or trying to) call anyone specificly out. If you want to know my opinion more elegantly put - see George's comments in here

Cerbrus

@Magisch: I poked you on Discord :D

Catija

@YvetteColomb Eh. Trying to stay positive.

Cerbrus

Naturally, being a cactus, you poked back...

user310756

14:03

@Catija xxoo

user310756

things will work out

Gwideon

have any steps been taken to make lessen the harm to LGBTQ+. sorry

Catija

@Cerbrus Plush cactus.

Cerbrus

@Gwideon nope

rene

@Cerbrus hey!

Gwideon

14:04

welp this is just wonderful

Mgetz

@Gwideon not sure what to say other than fallout hurts everybody. Containment is in-progress but very minimal at this moment

Cerbrus

Well, nothing really changed in the alst week

John Dvorak

The company doesn't even know that they've harmed those whom they claim to protect

Catija

@YvetteColomb Well... I hope so... but... hey... maybe quora needs a CM.

Cerbrus

Other than a procedure about removal / reinstatement of moderators

Gwideon

14:04

I wish this didn't happen

rene

@Gwideon a lot of people are trying but it doesn't happen overnight it seems.

user310756

@Catija don't say that... I have a stone in my chest

user310756

@Gwideon I think we all wish that

Cerbrus

@rene Hey?

rene

@Cerbrus yes, please be nice and careful.

Gwideon

14:05

@rene true It just hurts to have to deal with this

Cerbrus

Because lying to @Gwideon is going to make Gwideon feel better.

Mgetz

@Catija so this makes me think we need to send a swag bag to the CMs, I thinking for those that drink the "You don't have to be crazy to work here but it helps mug" along with hot toddy ingredients, and a plushie cactus for those that don't

Stevoisiak

The ironic thing I'm getting from this situation is that, the biggest damage here came from publicly stating why the ban happened, about a mod that used their real name

Gwideon

@Cerbrus wait how am i being lied to

Magisch

@Cerbrus I'm at work

Cerbrus

14:06

Nothing changed in the last week to lessen the harm to LGBTQ+.

terdon

@Catija Oh wow. If y'all start leaving, the exodus will become a flood :(

Magisch

you'll have to wait another hour

Cerbrus

@Gwideon I answered your question with "nope"

Stevoisiak

Talking publicly is the one thing it seems like they haven't been able to take back

user310756

@Gwideon I agree with rene. I think there's steps slowly tightening up the moderation of the site. Like they've let people speak their minds and now are pulling people in - speak your minds respectfully

Cerbrus

14:06

That's not a lie, but apparently, it's not nice

@Magisch No rush

rene

@Gwideon yes, it is a bit hard to spot on which end you need to pull to see progress and you might only find out later you pulled the wrong string. We're not giving up.

Magisch

if we want to keep MSE, we must

and I want to keep MSE

Gwideon

yeah

Raedwald

Yes, if I were SE, I'd seriously consider shutting down the meta sites. And chat.

2

user310756

me too

Cerbrus

14:08

Yea that's not gonna help a bit

at all

user310756

let it become a Qand A ste

Gwideon

that would be a bad move

user310756

considering the majority of contributors are not active on the metas

Raedwald

Harder to have toxic interactions when its just impersonal Q&A.

Gwideon

lot's of collateral damage. lot's of anger towards people who don't deserve it

user310756

14:09

it would be a bad move for the active meta users

Raedwald

Yes

user310756

@Raedwald agree

terdon

@Raedwald No! The meta sites are essential. MSE is arguable, but the per-site metas are very useful.

Shree

@rene means pull the string first to win ?

Catija

@terdon Mostly morbid humor.

Stevoisiak

14:09

If meta was shut down, I have 0 doubt it would hit the news

terdon

@Catija I can certainly see the appeal of that. :/

Raedwald

Sure, it would be the "nuke from orbit" option.

Stevoisiak

Heck, I'd send it in myself

Cerbrus

SO meta is a crucial support platform for SO's users

Meta.SE as much so for all SE power users

Magisch

chat is definitely not guaranteed

which is why this needs to be a civil place :)

Gwideon

14:10

nuking meta is not a good option

Cerbrus

Ignoring the discussion is not going to make it go away.

terdon

Removing meta rep could be worth it though...

Gwideon

that is a better option

Cerbrus

@terdon Then who would close-vote off-topic MSE questions?

Mgetz

@Raedwald as I've said before, given the current mentality I'm surprised they haven't. Thus cutting off the last real venue they have for understanding the community

Cerbrus

14:12

Or review queues...

Edits

Shree

SO , SO INC going to nuked meta ?

Cerbrus

No

Mgetz

@Cerbrus use the highest rep for the user from the network

Cerbrus

Not likely

terdon

@Cerbrus use network rep

Cerbrus

14:12

@Mgetz Oh, that could work

rene

@Shree I was imagining a entangled rope. I doubt there are winners there.

Mgetz

it's meta of meta, or just combine all their reps

terdon

And nobody closes new discussion questions as dupes of 10-year old ones!

Cerbrus

Okay guys, so who likes a good tea?

Mgetz

@Cerbrus Peach vanilla mint

Trasiva

14:14

@Magisch I use mud for baths.

Mgetz

but the company that used to make it doesn't anymore

Gwideon

okay bye I ain't comin back

terdon

@Magisch If ROs can clear stars, could you clear the three from Trasiva's message please?

Thanks.

Cerbrus

@Magisch I actually make a beast of a mud pie

It's soooo much chocolate and other stuff that'll clog your veins

But it's heaven in a edible form

Raedwald

Does not actually contain mud?

Shree

14:15

@YvetteColomb Both are failed and don't want that. :( Buts its lined toward ...

Trasiva

Death by diabetes!

Magisch

→ 16 messages moved to Trashcan

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Trasiva

Oh c'mon Rene, it was sarcasm.

Stevoisiak

To sum up everyone's thoughts: screams internally

Cerbrus

14:17

Not only internally :P

rene

@Trasiva that didn't translate well then

Trasiva

I'd never attack Magisch, who attacks a cactus.

4

terdon

@Trasiva Porcupines?

Cerbrus

15 mins ago, by Cerbrus

@Magisch: I poked you on Discord :D

It hurt....

Stevoisiak

Cerbrus

14:19

Ough

Trasiva

...I kinda wanna 3D print a Cactuar now

Stevoisiak

Cactus is for hugging, not attacking.

Just make sure you have thick protective armor before hugging

Cerbrus

Someone wiped all of their comments from this discussion... Cleanup crew on isle 6?

Trasiva

That's a lot of comments to purge. It really murders the context.

rene

@Cerbrus probably. There are still 2 mods active, I'm sure they have some flags in the queue to handle

John Dvorak

14:23

Do you mean aisle, or are we being likened to an archipelago?

Cerbrus

@JohnDvorak I'm so tempted to respond to that inappropriately, being a ESL... :P

Trasiva

English isn't Cerb's first language

Oh

Cerbrus

I figured a joke about discrimination for it not being my first language wouldn't be ok :P

Trasiva

I'm going to complain about your complaint, and ignore the fact that the feedback box is set over a shredder.

Journeyman Geek

@Raedwald erf

That would certainly kill the community

Magisch

14:27

This room was placed in timeout for 5 minutes; This is not the place to resolve this dispute. Please talk this out somewhere else or just disengage

rene

→ 13 messages moved to Trashcan

Magisch

There is obviously some serious bad blood at work here. But this tavern isn't the place to talk it out and especially not while tempers run hot. Please disengage for now and don't bring this here.

7

Mgetz

/me goes and cries in a corner

Trasiva

Hey man, don't take my bird and my bush.

user310756

@Mgetz can I come with

user310756

14:37

@Magisch ok

Bart

@Trasiva I'm gonna take your birds and your bees and the flowers and the trees and the moon up above

Trasiva

@Bart I'll take your glasses first. Let's see how far you get while blind!

Cerbrus

@Bart There's just this thing called "love" that appears to be missing (t)here.

Bart

It's glasses all the way down @Trasiva ... you'll never succeed.

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Trasiva

14:43

@Bart Yeeesh, that sounds like an eyesore.

Bart

That's how I get described more often

Emilie

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Cerbrus

We kinda dropped that subject and continues about glasses

Trasiva

(If that's too rough, feel free to delete)

Or tell me to

Emilie

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

rene

14:48

@Trasiva yeah, too edgy

Cerbrus

Isn't a glass you use to drink a beverage just that?

Raedwald

There is no FAQ about trolls, which surprises me. meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=%5Bfaq%5D+is%3Aq+troll

Bart

@Trasiva Ծ_Ծ

Trasiva

Lol, sorry @rene. Hard to always know the audience when it's constantly shifting.

Mgetz

@Raedwald There is a World of warcraft joke here somewhere.. but it belongs on gaming stackexchange chat

rene

14:49

@Raedwald isn't that handled by the guidance for abusive / rude posts?

Raedwald

@rene Clever trolls are not explicitly R/A

Mgetz

@rene well recall that trolls aren't technically R/A they are intended to cause another person to rise to that in response

Emilie

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Raedwald

@rene The word "troll" does not appear in the R/A FAQ page.

rene

@Raedwald yeah, it is a bit hard to catch I guess, as you would need to describe behavior and learn members to spot that behavior

Cerbrus

14:52

It'd call a "troll" "abusive" any day... A clever troll abuses the existing rules in order to annoy other users.

@Raedwald Because the word "Troll" is way too open to interpretation

Raedwald

@Cerbrus Yes, but if there is no FAQ advice on where to draw the line, or what to do if they are subtle or clever trolls, it can be tricky.

Cerbrus

What kind of advice would you put in there?

Every rule you add is fuel for a troll. Every rule has annoying ways to not technically break them

"I'm not touching you!"

Bart

@Cerbrus it doesn't matter. You'd just shadow ban any user visiting that page. Like a troll fly trap.

user351483

@Cerbrus Don't bait/Don't bite.

2

Cerbrus

i'm pretty sure SE doesn't have shadow bans

@Snow That's very open to interpretation though...

Bart

14:56

@Cerbrus ... so you're still convinced we're real?

Raedwald

@Cerbrus If "rules are fuel for trolls" is the policy, a FAQ page saying that might do. With cross reference to the R/A, CoC, etc.

Cerbrus

"I wasn't baiting, it was a honest question"

user351483

I'm just being simple. Even if you feel that someone is baiting you, don't bite.

Cerbrus

@Raedwald The less you mention "trolling", the better.

Just deal with it when it happens.

Harshly, imo

user351483

Accusing people of trolling is itself a form of trolling.

Trasiva

14:57

So what do you call it when baiting the baiter?

Cerbrus

@Snow Only if the accusation is false

@Trasiva baitception?

rene

@Raedwald if anything you would need to build it based on examples: like this one: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/114422/…

Cereal

@Trasiva a very skilled baiter

a master of xeir craft

Cerbrus

Meanwhile this is a perfect example how rules about trolling can devolve into technicalities.

Trasiva

Splitting hairs just gives everyone headaches.

Cerbrus

14:59

One could even argue I've been trolling.

djsmiley2k - CoW

@Cerbrus If that'd be done in the first place, maybe we wouldn't of been here.

Thats my take away from the whole thing.

Cerbrus

@djsmiley2k-CoW Hindsight 20/20

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