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4:03 PM
You mean, oh joy?
I hate how the right to be safe has turned into the right to feel safe (and even the right to be comfortable).
Humans are terrible at assessing their own personal safety.
Being safe doesn't count for much if you don't feel that you're safe. Feeling like you're about to be attacked, even if you aren't, is something that people should not have to deal with on a regular basis.
An essential part of actually being safe is, in fact, feeling that you're safe.
@animuson of course you cannot be held responsible for data stored elsewhere. But you can, and should, be held responsible for data stored here. No, this won't make the users completely safe again but anything that improves their safety (and more importantly their feeling of safety) on this site should be encouraged. So the fact that the data may be available elsewhere is irrelevant. After all, you could use the same argument to say there's no point in dissociating. So I really don't understand why you would even bring that up. — terdon 27 mins ago
@DavidA What does? My request or the fact that there is currently no real way of deleting yourself?
The GDPR does not mean you have to remove all mentions of a person per a standard request (I could do, and have done, a whole case study on this so I'm summarizing)
4:10 PM
@LinkBerest is that a new version of the GPL? :P
And yes, what terdon said there is absolutely true. I changed my username a few weeks ago. It took someone around three minutes to verify my old username through old comments on my posts after deciding to check.
> You agree that any and all content, including without limitation any and all text, graphics, logos, tools, photographs, images, illustrations, software or source code, audio and video, animations, and product feedback (collectively, “Content”) that you provide to the public Network (collectively, “Subscriber Content”), is perpetually and irrevocably licensed to Stack Overflow on a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive basis pursuant to Creative Commons licensing terms (CC-BY-SA), and you grant Stack Overflow the perpetual and irrevo
"perpetually and irrevocably licensed"
@LinkBerest My (limited) understanding of the GDPR and the CC license is that you have the right to have your name completely removed from the content you've shared. So if your name can be trivially inferred from a comment under your question, then the current dissociation is pointless and not fit for purpose. Is that wrong?
@DavidA licensed, yes. Why is that relevant?
Honest question.
@user58 And that is very much a question of safety.
What you're proposing could be perceived as turning that into a revocable license.
@DavidA How?
4:13 PM
First, define "trivially" (you cannot that would be defined by the court so its not a point in the GDPR but could be if you take this specific instance to court....btw. its not hard to show something is "not trivial")
@terdon I couldn't say definitively either way, but sure
the problem is enforcing gdpr is unlikely and expensive
It's irrevocably licensed because someone being able to say "delete all my stuff" would involve wiping wiki contributions, comments, answers, and questions (that other questions might be closed as a dupe of).
@LinkBerest Well, if I see a question posted by "userNNN" and a comment addressing "@Susan.H.Sharadon" then it's pretty trivial to put one and two together, right?
assuming they just dont comply, what are you going to do? Complain to the data protection authority in the UK? If they do anything it'll be years before anything happens
Second, as someone who works in signal processing. "Fully inferred" would be hard - links if setup right might not be (depends)
4:15 PM
@Magisch No. And I'm far more interested in the moral obligations. SE are trying to show that they do actually care about the community. Well, here's a way to demonstrate that. I won't sue if they do nothing, but I will be further disappointed by a company I used to trust.
@terdon if they invoked gdpr in this scenario, any mention of the person would be removed from comments as well.
Besides, the "internet doxxing machine" is more than willing to dig through old archives and even compare writing styles.
but that's not even what gdpr is, or is about
@DavidA Not delete my stuff! Of coure not. But remove my name from it, yes
@djsmiley2kconsumerofworlds great!
But let's not make this about the GDPR. Say there is absolutely no legal reason for SE to improve their current methods of allowing a user to remove themselves from the network. Even if there's nothing legal here, there is still a strong moral reason to do everything they can to help their users feel and be safer.
But, if you 'invoked' gdpr against SE, because they were a data controller, then they'd need to delete your information, from their databases, used for their business.

It doesn't mean they have to delete your information from every single place it occurs on the web, hosted by them.
4:16 PM
@terdon Most of the @userXXX stuff is actually people trying to reply in comments. Either tracking IDs of the replied-to comment or replacing them with proper placeholders would be better when people change their names for more mundane reasons too.
@DavidA Of course. But every little obstacle put in their way helps a tiny bit.
k, just don't be confused thinking GDPR is helping you in anyway. It's not.
Basically, what @djsmiley2kconsumerofworlds (hereto referred to as alphabet ;) said - and thanks
@DavidA yes, that would be better.
@djsmiley2kconsumerofworlds What makes you think I am? I mentioned it in passing.
@terdon Probably better for everyone. It would also make it possible to make sense of the mess that is meta right now with replies to comments that no longer exist..
4:18 PM
@terdon I don't disagree but I think it's a stretch to hope for
dev time will likely not be spent on anything like this
Also, fyi, as someone who works in data (to include an IA way that deals with privacy) there's no US laws that cover removing "all mention" of a user - it all depends on the agreement you sign up-front
can't shorten my name :O
@LinkBerest the US is hardly a useful example for this sort of thing.
@djs sure I can.
Philosophically, the USA is quite opposed to letting people control data about them. Information and opinions about you are called "reputation" and it's considered distinct from "identity".
now if you want to question whether that agreement fell into a category that invalidates it - there is precedence for this - that might be an interesting question for Law.SE
This is a US based company (hence, US courts must be considered)
4:20 PM
@terdon I meant I couldn't change it right now.
I really, really, don't want to make this about law.
@LinkBerest Why would any courts be considered at all?
because regulations = courts
@terdon ok no worries. Just I see people 'invoking' it, as if it's going to remove them from history. Really doesn't work like that, the internet doesn't forget.
case law is the basis of privacy agreements & a huge part of "terms of service"
Forget regulations. This is just requesting that a company that claims to care about its userbase start demonstrating that by its actions.
4:21 PM
Also because we're a society bound by agreements and codes, not by the day-to-day whims of human emotion.
Then you might want to make that explicit cause that's not what I saw in the comments
@DavidA You must live in a very different society than any of the ones I've lived in :)
@LinkBerest I am not responsible for what people want to comment on. I only mentioned GDPR in passing and even continued with "But whether there is a legal obligation or not, there is clearly a moral one.".
also it has the "legal" and "privacy" tag (maybe don't need the legal tag?)
Ah, fair point. The system had suggested legal. I just removed it, thanks.
no problem, I'm good with the actual feature request :)
4:25 PM
Argh. I am so not used to not being able to edit older chat messages. That's probably the one mod perk I am most attached to.
Q: How do I remove my name from a post, in accordance with CC BY-SA 4.0?

Robert HarveyThe Creative Commons FAQ states that: Third, if the licensor does not like how the material has been modified or used, CC licenses require that the licensee remove the attribution information upon request [...] in 4.0, this also applies to the unmodified work. How do I remove / dissociate ...

@DavidA I actually think this is one of the defining challenges of the 21st century
the advances in data processing and use really just calls for an unconditional human right of control over the use of all your data
it's mighty scary what companies can do with it
^ this is why I'm so versed in the subject
The company has epically failed in making its users safe. Its sole safety feature is worthless due to a flaw in the design. There are no ways of making yourself more anonymous that would remove previous identifying information. Everything you do is linked across the network. There are, in essence, zero safety precautions on the network. That needs to change.
4:26 PM
is exactly what i said
the internet never forgets lol
Never thought becoming a data engineer would include "study law"
It's often framed as "the right to do stupid crap as a kid and not have it ruin your life", but you're essentially saying that people can't be "fair" (for some definition of that) with controversial knowledge.
@user58 This. But it's even worse. There are features that are so broken as to essentially be outright lies like "hidden accounts".
That's what I was referring to with the worthless safety feature ;)
SE is basically a bit like wikipedia in that sense
4:28 PM
Ah, I thought you were harking back to your user name change.
The hidden accounts thing should really be removed.
lord knows you never want to use your real name there because the combination of licensing and company makes it impossible to get rid of your traces
Or, better, fixed.
looking towards a business perspective, that is also the #1 thing preventing me from using SO for careers
The reason the USA is a bit weird is that it's a Common Law jurisdiction (so things will seem weird to people from continental Europe), and we've got an almost sacred attachment to freedom and a rejection of the "risk management" approach to rights.
I'm of that generation that learned to use the internet before social media and all that crap, when nobody used their real name. Ever. I am still shocked that so many people choose to do so these days.
4:30 PM
@terdon I just presume everyone on the internet is a idiot, it goes a long way to explain many things ;)
I'm an idiot.
@Snow we're all idiots in some field.
I've always been quite hesitant to consider it virtuous to insulate an idiot from the effects of his idiocy.
@DavidA Well. Not quite. The US is very attached to the idea of being attached to freedom. However, it is a country that isn't particularly free and has ridiculously oppressive laws that allow people to be detained for years with no charge, deported to other countries, tortured, fined for travelling to third countries etc. It's actually quite fascinating to an outsider how the US insists on this idea of its being a particularly free society.
@DavidA I have a puffer jacket, is that insulating enough?
4:32 PM
If it's cold out, you betcha.
@DavidA I wouldn't say it's virtuous, just i'm yet to be proven wrong :D
@terdon that's a privacy anti-feature, and really an embarrassment for SE
@Snow hands Snow his turtleneck
@terdon risk of getting political anytime I hear a police horror storry not even necessarily someone getting shot just some BS like an officer makes up some charge or arrests people for no reason and it costs thousands of $ and lands on your record or some crap
@MadScientist It is, yes. It gives the illusion of privacy but nothing else.
4:32 PM
I think to myself damn thats really totalitarian and unfree
The problem there is that institutions are somehow able to maintain their legitimacy after doing that stuff.
@terdon I managed to get SE to improve the notice about privacy a bit for that feature, but it's still trivially broken and really should not exist in this form
@Magisch which is horrible because it makes all the good cops look like garbage too and makes it 10x more difficult to do your job and piles on 20x more stress cause you don't even want to tell people you are a cop (when did that become something to be ashamed of?), and .... a lot more
I myself am philosophically opposed to the "right to be forgotten" as it's in conflict with the right to know and the right to publish.
@LinkBerest It also creates cascading problems down the line.
4:37 PM
yep, what I mean by "a lot more"
I wouldn't hesitate to call the cops if something went really wrong here, but in the US I might just not
cause the chance of randomly getting shot or charged with some BS are too high
@DavidA I think it's important to have that 'right to be forgotten'. Especially as it's not applied willy-nilly from what I've seen in the news over here (court cases), but it is nice knowing that companies can be forced to remove stuff other people posted about someone, sometimes with no other goal than revenge.
@DavidA What is the right to know? There's no such thing as far as I am aware. And you can publish what you like, that doesn't mean it must remain public for all eternity.
@Magisch sigh they're really not though (I'm not going into the statistics now - ask me later maybe I'm just tired of defending myself today) but I understand the perspective and hate that there are those that abuse positions of power
@LinkBerest I couldn't say, but with all the cases I see and hear about of police officers showing up somewhere, straight up murdering someone who sometimes even called them for help and not facing any repercussions whatsoever does create a sense of dread, no matter how unlikely
"is this person going to shoot me dead on the spot? they could without any consequences"
4:41 PM
This is obviously a case of confirmation bias since you don't hear of the thousands of times cops come in, do their job well and leave. But yeah, it's understandable.
but if I'm in an emergency I'm not in the frame of mind to rationalize myself out of instinctive fear
yeah, I said I'm not gonna discuss (I've had to defend myself 8+ times today, I'm tired. Also have to get ready for my afternoon stand-up which is on-site) - and I get it as that's all people hear about, no stories about cops helping at all anymore
I've lived in four countries, and the UK is the only one where I haven't been afraid of the police. Also the only one where police don't go around wearing guns, which is a large part of why they're not that scary: if you don't have a gun, you need to know how to diffuse a situation without killing everybody.
Thats probably a gross insult to most US police officers in how it comes across - thats not intended
These are surely outliers, but it's as much a thing of sentiment then actual reality
I will say if you want to look into the postive more - look for articles on "community policing" which is what I subscripted to when I wore a badge (it involves only having specific officers armed, trying to build community repore, etc...)
4:44 PM
@LinkBerest Whos afraid of the police, we have Florida Man to worry about
Florida Man comes aimed with his own alligator
He comes pre-aimed? That's cool! :P
how do you aim an alligator
it's a melee weapon
Perhaps even a mealee one.
4:49 PM
wherein the attacked becomes the meal
I used to live in Florida, I only saw an alligator in town once.
@user58 North, South, Central?
The 'Right to be forgotten' is a fun one.
4:51 PM
of all the things in florida I'd reckon alligators are one of the less deadly
venomous things, brain eating amoeba...
I see them all the time, then again I am near a state park
@djsmiley2k-CoW you make no fun of rights.
Should we forget Shkreli ?
Tourists are always deadly because they have no idea how to behave in the local environment.
4:53 PM
Should we forget Cambridge Analytica?

America just scares me. It's kind of like Australia in that everything is out to kill you
bears, gators, florida man, guns, tornados, hurricanes, etc
That's how I like it
It kinda shocks me that Miami is an actual place though
5:09 PM
Miami is GEIL!
How can a city be horny?
I don't think that's appropriate language for chat? :/
That word also means awesome in german
Hmm. Dutch must've missed that part when incorporating it in the language then :|
It's a multi-meaning word
Okay... nothing to see here, please keep walking...
5:12 PM
@Tinkeringbell same ...
i've lost track of the whole..... situation that's blown up too
That's often the consequence of things blowing up... pieces everywhere and the original thing is gone beyond recognition.
5:23 PM
And, often as not, you're left with a Humpty Dumpty situation.
That too ^^
I find it off-putting that they never actually say that it's an egg
@Tinkeringbell yup
I think I'll go read some more and see if i can figure out in my head, where I am with the whole thing.
@StephanS in the rhyme?
well I've heard that it was never meant to be.
and it's a lesson that sometimes even the greatest army can't fix an accident
but that might just be the utterings of a insane old man (me)
5:28 PM
wait that's not secure
58 are you doing any better?
> The King's army (Cavaliers) could not give his power back and Charles I was executed. Another idea says the rhyme refers to King Richard III and his defeat at the Battle of Bosworth. Yet another says that Humpy Dumpty was based on the sudden catastrophic fall of Cardinal Wolsey from Henry VIII era. The Cardinal became ill on the way to his trial and died before he got to London.
oh http, is that a problem?
oh lawd I've seen gdpr mentioned in 3 places now ¬_¬
add the word to the list
Oct 15 at 7:39, by StephanS
drinking game: take a shot every time a new post has the words "Monica", "pronouns", or "CoC"
I propose we also start a drinking game for any time something good happens?
@djsmiley2k-CoW I like to stay on the safe side and not share likes without a site having it
Tinkeringbell: I mean, we'll save alot of money
And it might be a good incentive for all those people that do want to get drunk :P
5:37 PM
@StephanS fair enough
@Tinkeringbell lol
oh god i've read too much.
I can't help but feel, that the tools for reporting abuse, currently (as i understand they've not changed since the CoC update) are lacking.
Can someone help me understanding a comment ?
just don't feed the trolls
@djsmiley2k-CoW Hmm? Would a custom mod flag not work?
@Tinkeringbell I don't know, because I was never 'effected' by the issue.
@ArthurHavlicek sure
5:39 PM
affected? I can never remember!
meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335973/… last comment is very cryptic to me, can't extract any meaning
apart from the last sentence
@djsmiley2k-CoW Probably affected then ;)
Almost guaranteed to be wrong.
@ArthurHavlicek they're saying if everyone is equal then why are some people not allowed to be criticized
@ArthurHavlicek Meh.
5:42 PM
it's a weird comment that is way too long
@StephanS but that doesn't make the leastest sense with my post oh god.
do any comments.....
oh well. at least I went away from the downvote hell
@ArthurHavlicek I believe what he thinks (I could be wrong) is that your post says that not criticism of that community is valid
I guess I can add another 5 deleted comments to the count of today.
5:45 PM
I can't make an anlolgy to discuss without someone being offended, so I'm not going to :!
I'm not reading it that way but I think I see where he's getting it from
Because I finally got one into my head that makes sense to me, and maybe if i did discuss it someone could explain where I'm going wrong.
But perhaps @Arthur might consider wording the part about criticizing a community to read more specifically about 'critizing members of a community for being members of that community'.
I did mean a broad sense of criticism against community. For example if I say "Christians are usually rude". Well that's not nice
Something like "To be clear, criticism aimed at someone or a group of people, just focused on who/what they are, (community, religion, gender etc.) is rarely constructive and often not welcome on these boards.
5:47 PM
the comment seems emotional, but it does tell you where it getting its reasoning from with the quotes
@ArthurHavlicek That's more like stereotyping than criticism though?
hmmm I don't know, I think the ambiguity is "aimed at".
@djsmiley2k-CoW Analogy to explain what?
look that comment is reading like it's putting words in your mouth I personally won't worry about it, I had a comment that did this to me other on another site politics.stackexchange.com/questions/45758/…
@ArthurHavlicek I think your point is weakened because you also mention an individual. You are absolutely right, but that might be confusing people. Perhaps something like "criticizing an entire group of people for the actions of individual members is rarely constructive"?
5:51 PM
"what you're saying is" aren't good comments
Meh. Sounds like people are more interested in the appearance of being kind, rather than being kind itself.
@Tinkeringbell how the new CoC feels to me.
I've written something somewhere, but afraid of sharing it because.... well, getting banned isn't fun.
@djsmiley2k-CoW Ow. Well, yeah, feelings can get complicated quickly... I believe they kept the 'when in doubt, don't' ;)
yeah yup
i'll leave it where it is for now, maybe one dAy when things are cAlm, we can discuss.
@Tinkeringbell ok that was weird.
@StephanS Sorry, nitpicking, but could you change Those whom tend to value to Those who tend to value? The who there is referring to those, the subject. It's not the same as Those for whom the bell tolls.
5:55 PM
@SridharRatnakumar It's... to me it looks a bit like people saying 'But I've always offered people the same snacks/drinks at my birthday party, and thus treated them equal'. But it kinda changes when your aunt brings home the news that she's suffering from old age diabetes. Now, suddenly your way of treating everyone equal isn't equal anymore! You'll have to switch to a new kind of equality: One where you offer everyone snacks/drinks they can actually eat/drink.
errr whoops edite instead of ftyping lol
@terdon I'm not famous for my spelling
@Tinkeringbell you've just almost discribed my annology.
but I fixed it
5:56 PM
@djsmiley2k-CoW Get out of my brain then :P
i described it using pizza, but still.
no u.m
@StephanS I saw, thanks :)
ffs this keyboard lol
I'll try to squeeze a 3rd edit for clarity but I really have a hard time being more explicit
@Tinkeringbell No, those words were lost.
5:57 PM
@194636 Oh, not entirely lost... just made more wordy
> When in doubt, don't use language that might offend or alienate.
Good. The original was confusing, especially for people whose first language isn't English.
That's because some mods are language nerds, and we predicted that "Use stated pronouns (when known). When in doubt, don't" would be even more confusing ;)
Oh yes it moved as well.
@terdon I turned off my spell-check for this chat because it interferes with the site. If you notice my last couple of comments are train wrecks XD
@Tinkeringbell when in doubt.... be nice?
5:58 PM
@djsmiley2k-CoW That's always a good fallback :)
@Tinkeringbell I know. I was there and part of that process.
This is what I mean. I think be nice failed simply becAuse the mods don't have the tools to cope.
@StephanS Well, spell check won't catch whom anyway :) And that has bitten all of us at one time or another.
@194636 Ah. New phone, who dis?
@Tinkeringbell Mods? Language nerds? How dare you!
whistles innocently
5:59 PM
@Tinkeringbell Being kind is not kindness anymore? Gotcha.
@djsmiley2k-CoW Not necessarily the tools... Our tools work fine, even on a site like IPS. It's mostly a problem of recognizing problems.
That's a total misrepresentation of everything just said.
@SridharRatnakumar That seems a bit reductionist. What do you mean? Of course being kind is kindness. We're just trying to refine what being kind actually means, what it takes to be kind.
I rewritten entirely. "Constructive criticism should focus attack on opinions and facts, rather than on the people that hold them. Voicing (negative) opinions about a community (race, gender, religion...) , or even "some of it's members" should be avoided." Is this better ?
its a bit absolute maybe
6:05 PM
@terdon I think what he's getting at is it isn't kindness if it's required, kinda like it isn't nice for someone working an entryway to hold the door open for you because they're being paid for it, but let's try to drop this one
@SridharRatnakumar If people are being kind, I hope that means they'll be willing to get some sugar/carb free snacks/drinks for the diabetic aunt. But some people need a little push recognizing that... Refusing to get some is indeed pretty unkind!
@ArthurHavlicek I don't like 'attack' in there, personally. Constructive criticism is all about not attacking...
@Tinkeringbell look at us go with our analogies!
You could just drop the word, the sentence works without it :)
@StephanS Well, I did spent a few weeks thinking and figuring stuff out for my own... and I have a weird brain that often draws from completely random analogies, like mom's birthday party that took place while I was thinking ;)
6:08 PM
ah, my comment section got nuked (again). lol
23 mins ago, by Tinkeringbell
I guess I can add another 5 deleted comments to the count of today.
People leave way too many freakin' comments.
Also answers btw. I kinda wish we'd had the rule of not writing duplicate ones here too!
...I'd started flagging individual comments that could be removed at some point, but then I realized I was basically flagging every comment and gave up.
Just flag the post :D
6:11 PM
if you don't have enough water to put out the fire then wait for it to die down. it's not like anyone is throwing more wood on it....
True. Only oil.
I say sarcastically because I live only in the chat room now
@StephanS Yep. So flag, instead of responding ;)
Make flags your response. And suddenly, life is a tiny bit easier :D
Sometimes, fuel needs to be thrown on a fire, but it depends on what kind of fuel.
Like, if you want something to change, you're going to need to do something to make it change. Shutting up isn't going to do it.
So... throw a different type of fuel on the fire.
Speak with your actions.
or just live in the chatroom
6:14 PM
I tried that. Doesn't work.
...I've been living in the chatrooms for weeks, and it just got worse.
@Tinkeringbell Not for you ;)
@terdon Meh. I accepted this...
I know you did. And thank you!
@user58 Just make sure you can still control the burn. No need to get reckless and burned.
@terdon to be honest... This is kinda outdoing every expectation I had at the time :|
6:18 PM
By several orders of magnitude, I'd guess.
I'm still on strike. It's surprisingly liberating after all these years!
@terdon never took a vacation before?!
Yes, but I'd still mod every ow and then. Just less.
6:20 PM
@terdon oh, from mod stuff
Oh. My vacations are usually pretty soon just hanging out in chat and not much else...
Although I will say that I'm far more hopeful about the future now than I was a couple of weeks ago.
@terdon did you knew about stackoverflow.com/legal/gdpr/request ? Im sorry if I missed that you already said you did
I'm not.
6:21 PM
@Tinkeringbell Ah, I've never taken a vacation from moderating before. Just a vacation from work which usually comes with me being less glued to a computer than usual, and therefore moderating less.
@ArthurHavlicek Yes, but why?
It has a delete account request, if it's conform to GDPR, should nuke everything the company has about you
@user58 you'll feel more hopeful after you stop feeling like you're going to die
@ArthurHavlicek Yeah, but it doesn't. That's the problem. It will still leave the various comments linking my name to my posts. I have asked for a data dump though. I'm curious to see what I'll get.
@ArthurHavlicek I doubt it would affect anything except the data on the site itself. There's some more stuff in some cases that would have to be manually removed
@user58 Well, SE have taken certain steps I find encouraging. For instance, I got an employee commenting on my meta post today, minutes after it was posted. I may not particularly like what they had to say, but they said it and that's great!
6:25 PM
All steps fall short till Monica's name is cleared.
@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos that's something everyone gets to decide for themselves, luckily enough.
@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos don't you know how the News cycle works? No one has been mad about that for like 4 topics ago. Now we're all mad about something that I don't know what it is but we'll have more meta posts about it
And then I can tell you what we're mad about
I could do without the
The? The suspense is killing me!
6:39 PM
@StephanS brews a cup of lemon tea for @StephanS
sip, burns tongue I should have waited
@terdon it is an invite to freely associate
but not too free, please.
The marmite! Everyone can do without marmite. Prove me wrong!
What's marmite?
it's a spread
6:43 PM
Possibly the most controversial food item in human history.
@terdon isn't it banned in a couple of places
I genunely believe I could be tortured with marmite.
but, I like twigglets D:
I've tried it once, I think. Many years ago. I will not try it again.
6:49 PM
I use it in soup. that's about the only way I can eat it
Hello, I have a comment and I don't know if it's rude or not. Could someone take a look? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334058/… Also, if it's not rude, would you mind flagging as "no longer needed"? It doesn't suggest an improvement or ask for clarification. Plus, it could start an heated argument and I don't want that
that's quite a mild comment

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