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Optimus Prime

00:00

;p

user1306322

@OptimusPrime that could mean anything! you've just confused us all

Optimus Prime

it looks like the software has a free version available. Also the user have some rep on SO

Even if it's a software recommendation, it answers the question.

whatever. at present, I'm not gonna do anything

Hey @JourneymanGeek did you just woke up or didn't go to bed yet?

Journeyman Geek

00:19

@OptimusPrime just woke up

Optimus Prime

It's 6. Had to sleep.

Gud nightorning c y all

user1306322

it's 3:22 I'll be having a cup of tea and some kind of food, I don't even care what anymore lol

(jk, I care <3)

you know these days I'm afraid I'll get suspended for posting a reasonable request without offending anyone or proposing anything radical, and I'm even uncomfortable posting this chat message haha

but like a user who's no longer a user once said, "you should stop worrying about a site so much"

Journeyman Geek

01:09

@user1306322 and yet, here we are

@john at this point of time, I appreciate Peter fixing my terrible writing.

Especially in my current state of mind, my spelling and grammar is probably atrocious and probably I have some dangling sentences

410

Sep 20 at 13:27, by 410

> It's all fun and games until some website loses a moderator.

Journeyman Geek

@410 Its not just about losing moderators

We've had well loved, solid folks wander off cause real life

This is different

410

01:44

Just remembered a fitting soundtrack to all of this weekend+.

Jacques Brel - "Le Moribond"

►

.... hopefully "tu es bon comme du pain blanc" is not considered racist. <_<

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

02:46

@JourneymanGeek meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/67143 Is this what you intended?

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog uhm

In this context...

rather than saying yes or no...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Yes, I tried reading the paragraph with and without it, and both made sense to me.

Journeyman Geek

My intention here is to say that - the mod who was asked to leave, or the mods who left would not be coming back without change

and without that change - any talk of it is hypothetical

In this instance - I ask you keep that in mind when deciding

I'll review it when I'm in a better state of mind.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Alright, I'll approve. Feel free to override it if you think it's wrong.

Journeyman Geek

Thank you

I have a lot to say, and a lot I wish to try to do, and I don't really know if I'm doing it.

Honestly if I wasn't setting a bad example, I was thinking of CWing these posts

But geek the mod would go "NOOOOO, CW IS NOT GET OUT OF REP FREE. THIS IS NOT RIGHT"

user194636

04:11

9

A: Stack Overflow Inc., sinat chinam, and the goat for Azazel

I was told offline I need to provide this information ASAP. Trying to be brief until after RH. Caleb described the issue, so I feel safe in expanding now. In January a mod asked a discussion question on the mod team: should we require that people use preferred pronouns? My answer said we must n...

410

About what I expected. That resignation post on Lit had a couple of red flags in it.

Good luck to Monica who is probably sjw-mobbed outside of SE and will be for some days to come.

user206222

I am not the moderator in question.

Journeyman Geek

04:42

@410 That's not helpful

there's nothing worse that can come out of this than someone getting harassed over this

user206222

This snippet will cause an already-angered group to seek the individual moderator in question. It is awfully close to violating the "never copy anything out of TL" rule in a way that slings crap in an undetermined direction. It is unscrupulous to post this, and whether intended or no, bears the seeds of a hunt. That direction is also likely to be me due to my resignation, which is incorrect, but is something I'm not in a position to be able to demonstrate. I hope you understand the position this puts me and other queer moderators in, and how it sets us up to receive additional anger. — Aza 12 mins ago

user206222

I'm documenting this here because I'm sincerely worried that Monica's post will lead angered people, regardless of the legitimacy of their anger, to seek an individual who is at fault and cited here. It is careless and reckless for her to have posted this -- or at my most forgiving, maybe she doesn't grasp this severity since she's been away. I also fully recognize that individual is most likely to be me.

user206222

A comment can be removed but a onebox stays on transcript.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza honestly - so much of this is reckless and ill planned and...

sigh

SO uhm. As a fellow user, and someone who spends a lot of time here. I realise folks are angry and worked up and... Its tempting to opine and share the latest news. And I'm sure folks are interested

but the last thing that we need to do is fire up a mob with pitchforks and torches

No matter where you stand on this

user206222

Paraphrased,

user206222

04:49

It's not moderators I'm worried about as much as it is non-mod users, @Ward. Many moderators are currently vying for public support and pouring information out selectively to achieve that end. But many regular users are angry about this, and it's only a matter of time until that carelessness hurts someone. — Aza 25 secs ago

John Dvorak

04:59

@Aza I don't think it's reckless or even unwelcome. As for the masses, do you think that keeping them in the dark would stop any damage? I've seen quite a lot of damage caused by keeping people in the dark for just a few hours.

user206222

This is a different kind of "damage," @JohnDvorak. What, to Stack Overflow's reputation? To community trust?

user206222

I sometimes don't think it's obvious the level of vitriol trans people receive online, particularly when someone passively or actively directs anger our way. I've had friends who needed to go into hiding -- physically, into a safehouse -- because of extreme anger.

user206222

I don't think this reaches that level, but I don't know. Someone making a post with easily-recognizable potential to do that is not a good sign for things to come.

user206222

At some point, this stops being about "how do we repair Stack Exchange?" and more about, "how do we keep each other, our physical persons, safe?"

John Dvorak

Do you think the masses will start hurting trans people because of this?

user206222

05:04

It wouldn't be the first time. I don't know.

John Dvorak

The alternative is to destroy all trust that everyone has in the company, and undo the community entirely.

user206222

I don't know what you mean to imply.

John Dvorak

I really don't think you're in danger here. The only one this new information paints in bad light would be that one mod, and their identity purposefully hasn't been revealed

user206222

Y'know, man, I really wish I could wholeheartedly believe that. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. I'm going to go silent for a while, to see what happens with this info.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Without knowledge of the post on the moderator SO Team, I can't say for sure whether the claim is true or not.

Journeyman Geek

05:21

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog with full knowledge of everything that a mod would know

I don't really know what's happening

Magisch

morning

John Dvorak

One thing's for sure: the mob's pretty fired up against the company simply because they know they're being denied information, and information's what they're up for.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak uhm

no

John Dvorak

... or, was before I went to sleep

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak I'd actually say its multiple failures of the social contract

If a member of our community was vulnerable and we missed it. And we continue to miss it, we failed

John Dvorak

05:27

You mean Monica?

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak Well, something triggered this off

So - I'd say its not just her

There's a critical thing here

Magisch

Another 2000+ messages across 2 chatrooms overnight

Journeyman Geek

It is so damned tempting to find someone to blame

Magisch

I think i'll pass I have to actually get some work done today

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I'm sorry

@JohnDvorak I get some pushback for this but - we're all in this together

John Dvorak

05:29

You mean, there are no bad guys and we just need to sit and wait for things to work out in the end?

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak Sit, no

hell no

But I don't recommend going out to find bad guys

If you know someone is hurt. Find out why. Treat them with the respect they deserve

I know a few people are hurt by this. In some cases, I wish I'd known earlier and done a better job of helping others do the right thing. I do hope I made enough of an effort in my time.

I also know there's some of this I cannot have done anything about

John Dvorak

"Find out why" is exactly what the community is trying to do

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak and that dosen't mean sitting back

and its also an individual thing too.

John Dvorak

What should the community do, then?

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak simply?

Look out for each other.

John Dvorak

05:33

And they do

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak I've been a moderator for... god.. 4, 5 years?

And I miss stuff

And if I understand correctly - a lot of this is in the sphere of people I know and interacted with

and hearing all the partial stories, well

I don't even know

in SU and RA, we have this amazing sense of community. Folks really do watch out for each other

I've seen so many people want to dig up the latest gossip. To snipe, and watch things burn down

I've been in tears a couple of times today

SOmetimes cause someone was incredibly kind in all this

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

9 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Quite honestly, I'm waiting for the time when we can all return to the usual meta stuff (on the site).

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I do too

But this is also important

John Dvorak

From what I've seen, what people really want is for the company to stop working against the community, and start treating it with respect.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak well, yes

But that's an underlying tension and unhappiness.

John Dvorak

05:41

And they see the company withholding information as a major issue even if if it's well-intended.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak I'm usually a strong believer in "sunlight is the best disinfectant"

that's how I ended up here

But looking at the strong feelings of people

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek I like that philosophy

Journeyman Geek

WOuld you believe that looking at the undertones I see - it would likely make things worse, not better?

John Dvorak

My best prediction - if the new information is true - is that people would seek out that the Mod's behavior won't repeat itself, and the mere fact that the company is finally talking would lift the mood immensely. As for what happens if the company keeps status quo - well, people are fearing for their worst and looking for backup plans should the company ditch them entirely.

HDE 226868

@JourneymanGeek A couple of cases of that really have made me smile over the last ~72 hours. I think it's important that we keep finding reasons to smile.

John Dvorak

05:56

(still thinking hard about the whole situation)

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak and honestly - most of us are pretty powerless to do anything

The best I can hope for the is the right people listen

rene

Assuming there still is a shared goal, I expect people to listen. And the listening might not be the hardest part. processing all that listening to fit into your own beliefs and then admit you need to adjust your stance is the blockage here. Hard for individuals, huge task for enterprises.

5

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek Considering all that's been said publicly so far - I'm afraid you are right that the community is powerless and the change has to come from within the company.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak and I have tried to make that clear

John Dvorak

What do you suppose should be done then? Talk to other people within the company?

rene

06:09

That is a bit of a problem with companies. They tend to have objectives that not in all cases align with objectives of individuals, either within or outside.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak honestly I have no idea

John Dvorak

@rene I don't think protecting Mod's actions should be in any company's agenda.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak ah but there's a complication there

John Dvorak

Best case is that they don't realize this is happening or that they intend to do something about it when time has been given to formulate a plan.

Journeyman Geek

A moderator literally invests time and emotional energy into their sites

So one of my issues with how this happened is how that social contract felt broken

John Dvorak

06:12

I mean the Mod. I'm not saying that the company should ditch the needs of its moderators!

rene

@JourneymanGeek maybe SE felt there is no social contract between a mod and the company, so there was nothing to break from their point of view. The free service for y'all to use is the only obligation.

Journeyman Geek

@rene yup. And that's something I feel needs addressing

John Dvorak

At this point I don't know what the correct thing to do is.

rene

@JohnDvorak I prefer to stay away from singling out / blaming individuals.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak no

We should not

That's tempting but it's a path we absolutely need to avoid

rene

06:21

@JohnDvorak that goes for the 0,015% that is invested in this plus SE staff.

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

!!/coffee

waffles

John Dvorak

...welp

SmokeDetector

@rene brews a cup of Latte for @rene

rene

there we go

John Dvorak

What do you suppose should be done?

Journeyman Geek

I wish I knew

I hope someone knows

John Dvorak

06:27

Make sure that the company is aware of the situation and see where they go with it?

Journeyman Geek

Yup

I think we are all trying

rene

First we need to wait for the "official" SE response / clarification / their side of the story. Then we need to evaluate that against our own understanding of the issue at hand, make sure we fully grasp their drivers / goal / concerns and make a judgement call if the envisioned route is one that you believe is a good fit going forward and is within your own fair personal agenda. Once that is settled you can start to think about how you merge that back into the community at large.

6

It is basically take a step back, evaluate, make up your own mind and then either engage or disengage.

Journeyman Geek

@rene at this point it's really hard

rene

Group dynamics are hard.

Journeyman Geek

Yup

rene

06:36

And sometimes underestimated

John Dvorak

I think it's fair to say that the main driver is that people simply don't know what the heck is going on

Magisch

SE did themselves no favor with previous blunders though. If this happened 2 years ago the response would have been entirely different

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch hence why I see it as much in terms of the social contract as anything

rene

@Magisch You see, that is part of the problem. Does SE really believe they had previous blunders? Maybe the company doesn't see it that way.

Magisch

@rene If that isn't the case then SE will just become another avenue in the escalating culture wars

That would be the darkest timeline and I hope it never comes to pass

rene

06:41

@Magisch That is our expectation, yes and a fair analysis. Still, we don't know their drivers.

John Dvorak

Fun fact: while a company is just a collection of individuals, which can cause inconsistencies when viewed as a single entity - that same thing also applies to humans. They too behave in ... interesting ... ways because they're just a collection of parts that don't even stay the same throughout time.

rene

Yes, same for flowers ...

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch that scares me

John Dvorak

When you chop a plant in half, both halves act as an entire singular plant, even forming new roots where it previously had none. When a human brain gets chopped in half, you end up with two slightly different people sharing a single spinal column.

Magisch

It feels like recently every outrage generating event is similar to the last, and bigger every time. Every time we stray a little further from the things that actually matter. Every time people are a little more hurt and become more distrustful of the system. Every time SE employees feel a little more unwelcome in the community they administrate.

And now we're at a point where any shadow is a target, every bit of opacity a conspiracy, and everyone is either for or against the latest iteration of the culture war playing out here. It's saddening and it just keeps getting worse.

John Dvorak

06:46

@Magisch well put

Journeyman Geek

07:09

@Magisch yup

But that also makes it harder for them to become part of those communities

John Dvorak

07:22

I acknowledge that this was written from memory, in a hurry, and probably not in the best of moods, but this is a misrepresentation of what happened: I went through the relevant parts of the transcript from the 18th and the words bigot, transphobe, or any similar accusation were never hurled in your general direction. No sentence like “Your ideals are wrong.” was uttered. Overall I perceived the discussion as intense, but not descending into rudeness, name-calling, or similar. — Wrzlprmft 1 hour ago

And yet knowing I don't know anything is ... liberating to me.

I'm glad to see that things have calmed down since yesterday evening (CET).

Optimus Prime

07:38

there's a spam on meta

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime something hasn't changed

flag it

Optimus Prime

I prefer to wait for now

and somebody casted a close vote lol

John Dvorak

@OptimusPrime why so?

Optimus Prime

If SE wants to implement gender based and other ways to support LGBTQ, then it can't be considered as a Professional network anymore. It'll become a social network. There're many other things that need to be fixed asap.

@JohnDvorak I'm waiting for something else. Until then, no

John Dvorak

@OptimusPrime I don't think the compulsion to respect one's preferred pronoun in moderator messages turns the site into a social network..

Journeyman Geek

07:44

@OptimusPrime A lot of SE dosen't cover the profession or even the technological space

Not even counting chat - which is by design a social space

Optimus Prime

I didn't mean chat.

Journeyman Geek

And honestly - the age of innocence, where we could hide behind being a small purely technical site is gone.

John Dvorak

@OptimusPrime and yet the chat is a critical part of the network

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek That's true

Journeyman Geek

Yes, there is absolutely politics out there

and we do get sucked into a lot of it from outside

Optimus Prime

07:46

@JohnDvorak my point is, instead of calling someone he/she/they we can simply call them with their name.

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime So - I have a really simple view here.

John Dvorak

@OptimusPrime Perhaps. I wouldn't wage a war over it though.

Journeyman Geek

You're talking to a fellow human being. They have emotions, preferences, things that make them feel safe and valued.

These things are much more important than anything else

So using the right term means a lot to them

Magisch

The thing is though

Stack exchange is not really a social space

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch We do have communities no?

Magisch

07:49

the optimum exchange was always 0% any social things and 100% business. Every reference, holdup or mention of social structures is considered a failing

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch most of us don't just stay for the privilege of answering questions ;p

Magisch

Everything on here is as impersonal as possible

Journeyman Geek

Most of the best of us have less ... um

functional? reasons for being here

Magisch

I need a userscript to see usercards while reviewing, for instance

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and yeah, in many places its content over the person by design

John Dvorak

07:50

@Magisch I don't think some of the sites would work at all without an associated chatroom.

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek It may hurt newbies. But in chat, almost all of talk with humans, bots, dogs, cats, birds, robots and ultimately, with aliens (like me).

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime lets consider something

Optimus Prime

In professional space, they can't expect someone to call them as they want

Journeyman Geek

Most of this drama happened with moderators, in moderator spaces

So Its hardly newbies

Magisch

@JohnDvorak I agree, but they're the deviations from the model. The model was made for SO and the trilogy sites

Journeyman Geek

07:51

A critical thing here is if we dismiss folks concerns, we lose them.

@Magisch I didn't quit SU cause of my community

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek At the same time, it's not right to dismiss the concerns of well experienced Mods who worked hard for the benefits of this community

I don't know the entire thing and I'm currently on this stage

2

Magisch

as a practical upshot the fallout from this will likely continue into the new year

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime in which case I suggest looking around a bit

Magisch

I know they don't hold elections over the holidays usually so if the current resignations hold it'll probably be february before new elections are held

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch Oh god no.

I don't think the community would survive that

Magisch

07:54

for instance TWP is down from 5 active mods to 2

John Dvorak

If community's fears come to fruition, even if there are elections, nobody runs, and even if somebody does run, they'll resign when they learn what's happening behind the curtain.

Optimus Prime

There're lots of mods out there who doesn't care anything. And even more people are there who aren't aware of such happenings.

In one of a comment, Jeff clarified that he won't blame the company if it wants a change after 10 years

Some people are supporting the company and some supports the mods. And the majority didn't took a side yet

Magisch

@JohnDvorak In that sense, it's probably better to have the elections next year so the dust can settle before

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime Jeff's been out of the company a while

Magisch

and we don't for instance see an election where all newly elected mods immediately step down again

Journeyman Geek

07:57

And honestly - unless someone told him, there's no way he'd have any clue of the situation

Optimus Prime

Yeah. He left the company many years ago and asked the company to remove his diamond 1 or 2 years ago when he took a break from internet

John Dvorak

@Magisch settle, or fester.

Optimus Prime

Still his opinions can be considered because he's the one behind all this thing. I don't think Joel could make this without him.

There's hundreds of questions that doesn't have an answer yet. Assume a trans newbie asked a question, didn't get an answer instead got some downvotes, then they decided to claim the community insulted them for being a trans, somewhere else?

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime that's unhelpful

Optimus Prime

When we talk with user12345, we don't know from which country they're. Or we don't know their gender or age or anything. Still they don't have any problem and they'll get an answer they want

Journeyman Geek

08:04

That's precisely the line of argument that makes things less safe for folks

But if they did - everything's out in the open

Optimus Prime

fmpov, I don't need to know the gender or race or culture or religion or political views of someone to provide an answer.

Journeyman Geek

Nope

Optimus Prime

While talking to a third person in comment box, I use OP instead of he/she/they

Journeyman Geek

But in some circumstances - some folks may find it useful in interaction

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek It's totally rare.

Journeyman Geek

08:09

Not always

So one of the takeaways from this is - how much we miss in the spaces we're in

and these small things can matter to folks

Optimus Prime

I somewhat agree with that in chat

Chat doesn't maintain a professionalism

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime chat is an extension of the site

Optimus Prime

You served as a mod for years and I think you sent 100s or 1000s of mod messages. While you're sending a mod message, you're directly sending to the person and you or your is enough, right?

I read in someone's resignation letter that they need this to include in Mod message too

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime we actually mostly use templates, carefully designed to be neutral

But - sometimes you need nuance and empathy and connection

Especially when you're reaching out to someone who was hurt

Being a moderator isn't just about dealing with posts.

And least lately I feel like that's something parts of the SO management is blind about.

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek yeah. The future of the community depends of those 5-6 people

Journeyman Geek

08:21

@OptimusPrime uhm?

Optimus Prime

And that's the problem here. Monica didn't received the respect she deserved

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime Well - a lot of the pushback is due to that

Optimus Prime

The director simply left an answer on Robert Harvey's resignation notice saying Sorry to see you go. But we will implement it at any cost

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime I wouldn't really want to chalk it down to one person just yet

Sadly, the person who swings the blade is not always the one who passes the sentence

Once again

Its far too easy to try to find someone to blame

3

I'd really love to dissuade that line of reasoning

Optimus Prime

I don't know the people involved but Monica confirmed the Sara is the one she mentioned in meta post

And the answer on MSO was filled with rude and abusive comments in the past, 500+ downvotes and everyone's angry with Sara

Journeyman Geek

08:32

:/

Optimus Prime

In other words, Sara understood the heat of SO and how much we love our mods

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime I handed in my diamond early on. I didn't expect the sheer level of emotion and the depth of the reaction.

And well

I'm actually pretty in touch with the community I'd think

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek so it was you!

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak I'd happily take the blame if it helped other people heal

But I'd have kept the diamond, and worked on damage control then

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek as everyone know, the main communities are S(O|U|F)

Journeyman Geek

08:37

@OptimusPrime and?

I've always felt the smaller communities matter too

Optimus Prime

in this 3, SO is the community 60+% people interact, afaik

Journeyman Geek

This is Stack Exchange

In fact

Optimus Prime

SO folks didn't took it much serious until they saw the resignation by Robert

@JourneymanGeek yeah. I'm not talking about that. SO get's more than 50% dupes and ot and spam when considering those things entire SE gets.

forgot to add, rude/abusive comments too

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime Its worth considering though...

Resignation is pretty much a soap box

John Dvorak

As a side note, any idea how the "destroy Stack Exchange because they dared to increment the content license version number even though they technically weren't allowed to do so" project is going?

Journeyman Geek

08:40

Its a way to be heard

Optimus Prime

The folks started acting when Robert posted it in meta and Sara shared her answer

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak Well , since I don't represent authority here any more...

I honestly think the fuss over the version number was pretty ... strange

and was just a reflection of people generally being unhappy

John Dvorak

I hope you do sign up again once this drama is over

Magisch

@JohnDvorak as far as I know some people are exploring suing for copyright infringement to bankrupt SE on statutory damages

silly

Optimus Prime

Robert moderated the site for 8+ years, from the bronze age till date and he have significant contribution in keeping the site clean and very welcoming to new users

Journeyman Geek

08:42

@JohnDvorak I hope we're in a situation where I'm comfortable with it

I do think that there's a good many things we need to re-examine though

Optimus Prime

I don't even know the difference between v3 or v4 and I don't care about it

John Dvorak

I'm willing to help with the discussions

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak I have great contacts if needed

Magisch

I never cared about license changes to begin with. All my stuff is additionally available under cc0

Journeyman Geek

But I don't think now is the time

john

08:46

It's not about what license, it's about imposing changes.

Without even warning in advance.

Journeyman Geek

@john Its also about trust

rene

@john warning: changes will occur in the (near) future

Optimus Prime

@rene not like that. In license change, they made a meta post along with the sentence Effective from today

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime which is literally how it has worked in the past

john

@OptimusPrime That's how I remember it.

Optimus Prime

08:49

They could've informed it the community earlier by making a post We are planning to move from v3 to v4. What do you think

Journeyman Geek

5

A: Legal page says user content is under cc-by-sa-3.0, but other pages say cc-by-sa-2.5

Good catch, I updated it to refer to 2.5 for consistency if nothing else. Not sure if the minor tweaks of 3.0 over 2.5 are particularly relevant to us, or not. edit: as of yesterday, we re-licensed under cc-by-sa-3.0.

as of yesterday

john

@JourneymanGeek I can see a good progression then. :D

Journeyman Geek

This is even funnier

4

A: Why don’t we call our licence by name?

Dunno when exactly, but it was fixed and rolled out to all sites:

Optimus Prime

personally, I don't care about the license change unless SE tell me the contents you posted here are our property. You don't have the right to share it somewhere else

Journeyman Geek

Nope

john

08:53

@OptimusPrime That's license transgression.

Journeyman Geek

You're still licencing your content to SE with a perpetual irreocable licence persuant to a CC by SA licence.

Optimus Prime

@JourneymanGeek it's still better. cc-wiki doesn't contain any version number

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime CC wiki is obsolete

Optimus Prime

oh

john

@OptimusPrime 'As far as I can tell, "cc-wiki" is an old working name for the license that eventually became CC-By-SA 2.5.' meta.stackexchange.com/a/211836/202324

Optimus Prime

08:54

I don't know about licensing. When I open source stuff I made via Github, I simply put an MIT license

Frankly, I never read MIT license yet

Journeyman Geek

@OptimusPrime and that's kind of a thing here

john

@OptimusPrime I used to do that, until I started a life long thing; read every license and ended up using ALv2. It's damn large, but it's good.

@OptimusPrime this is a rare extreme :/

Optimus Prime

@john you mean Apache?

rene

@OptimusPrime despite popular belief and demand SE doesn't need to run everything past the community beforehand.

john

@OptimusPrime Aye ALv2 is a well known, no acronym conflicts, shorter name for Apache License version 2.

I think MPL is similar, but I exhausted all of my brains in ALv2 so that's my choice. x_x

mozilla tells its copyleft is stronger, so I'm fine with ALv2

Optimus Prime

09:02

@rene yeah. re licencing alone wouldn't made such problems. But when joined together with new CoC, everyone started talking about

John Dvorak

Might be best to wait with relicensing until people and the company can work together again.

Optimus Prime

It's all about timing

@john I don't know what's written in MIT. I used it in most my ~~rep~~ repositories.

And some of them doesn't contain any license at all

john

@OptimusPrime famously choosealicense.com/no-permission

Optimus Prime

@john no need to check and update versions ;p

john

@OptimusPrime software licenses change version very seldomly, compared to CC. Seriously, don't do that.

there's not a need to upgrade version, too

(for most software. I dunno what are the reasons behind SE updating to 3 and then to 4)

(couldn't care less)

Optimus Prime

09:11

I'm planning to open source a background image carousel I wrote in less than 20 lines of code

And I'm not going to put any license in it

If we really care about other people, let them use it without any worries

john

@OptimusPrime am I allowed to farsee what'll happen?

Optimus Prime

any suggestions are welcome. It'll be released in my github account, in which almost all of the repos doesn't contain a license

john

Is that a yes?

Optimus Prime

yes

john

Your fellow developers will kindly ask you to grant them a perpetual open source license before becoming contributors.

They'll probably propose MIT or BSD-2-clause, and you'll eventually fold to the demand and license your software under an open source license.

Journeyman Geek

09:19

@OptimusPrime a significant part of the FOSS movement is a wee bit political

Optimus Prime

@john If someone ask, I'll do it. no issues with that. ;-)

@JourneymanGeek politics is involved in almost all the things

john

@OptimusPrime longer explanation: if you don't license the code, and someone is forced to change it, they can not change it from your state without making a leap of faith in that you (or any of your successors, this is a tricky bit but important) won't sue them by copyright infringement. They would need to get to your state by iterating from zero.

The niceness thing has no legal value because it isn't forcefully transmitted to your heirs, unless you leave that written.

Happens that a BSD-2-clause or an unlicense is going to be shorter and more standardized than a testament.

Magisch

@john The best way: cc0 or public domain dedication

john

09:35

@Magisch u r right

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