Tavern on the Meta

Aibobot

02:53

I currently have... 3 monitors, a tablet (personal), a laptop (work) and 3x phones (personal, personal testing with a new telco, work...)

on my desk

I probably look like a movie hacker

Meta Andrew T.

03:10

You are a hacker!

Meta Andrew T.

06:00

Anyway, it's ~~morning~~ Monday...

Aibobot

Afternoon

Shree

A/

forest

1

A: Move question info from underneath question title back to sidebar on wider viewports

On desktop, this modification does not help in terms of readability, usability or accessibility. First, it strays from a basic web readability principle: Multiple chunks of information presented as list items (like the page stats were in the sidebar) are easier to read, scan and digest than whe...

Huh, so those changes actually violate web readability principles.

Then it wouldn't make blunders like this when making changes.

Aibobot

uhm. SE actually does have professional web designers

not just people playing ones on the internet

forest

Well, I mean they should have been consulted for these kinds of changes.

I know that it's not always practical to consult them for every little change, but still...

Aibobot

06:14

uhm

SE has UX people and actual research surveys and people running tests and...

so - quite honestly, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

forest

I didn't say they had no web designers.

I said they should have been consulted before this change.

Aibobot

Who else do you think designs things.

forest

This change was obviously not done by a professional who is aware of standard web readability practices, even if they do deal with other UX aspects or other changes.

Aibobot

@forest citation needed.

forest

I'm not an encyclopedia. This is just common sense. :P

Aibobot

06:17

I mean, how do you say its obvious?

Are web readability practices immutable?

forest

I mean, if a company had a policy to install Firefox on their computers as root, even if they had a security guy on their payroll, it'd be obvious that he was not consulted for that.

Aibobot

But this isn't that

this is something that's been in the pipeline a while, and implimented eventually

forest

You're right. That's an analogy - a comparison which is not meant to describe what is.

Aibobot

which indicates a lot more consideration than you are saying

forest

@Aibobot Well, it violates basic web principles, known psychological and perceptual phenomena, and appears to be an unpopular change at that. There may have been consideration, but no professional web designer was consulted (or at least, that's how it appears).

Aibobot

06:19

Actually, its much more likely earlier designs were done by folks with less of a clue about web design

@forest every change is unpopular

forest

Nah, plenty of changes are popular.

Meta Andrew T.

What is "basic web principles"? Who's decide that?

Aibobot

also, could we stop insulting the folks who design the sites please?

(IE, you're pretty much veiledly calling the design team unprofessional, knock it off please)

forest

sigh you keep reading into something that isn't there. I haven't insulted anyone. Just because someone who does something is not a professional in that something does not mean that they are not good at their jobs. What I am pointing out here I believe is an oversight, not incompetence.

Aibobot

@forest once again, its something that's been in the pipleline, considered, probably reviewed by 2 different PMs...

So... you are probably assuming a lot more than you should.

forest

06:21

The specific choice of placement for the metadata?

Aibobot

Sure

Joe literally said it was meant to be there

I've taken the liberty to even link an answer which references it

So, if you're saying someone missed it, well, that's a lot of eyes.

forest

Even the best teams make mistakes.

Aibobot

uhm

Shree

When bot speak I spellbound :D

Aibobot

Have you stopped to consider... maybe its not a mistake?

Meta Andrew T.

06:23

So, here's the problem: those who don't like the changes will ~~complain~~ give feedback, but those who like the changes won't probably comment anything at all.

forest

I can't consider that because if I do, you'll get angry at me for accusing them of "lying".

@MetaAndrewT. Then why isn't every change posted on Meta voted negatively?

Aibobot

@forest let me rephrase - have you considered a lot more effort goes into things than you realise?

forest

Anyway I stated my opinion and referenced the opinions of others (including people citing web design principles). There isn't much more that will come out of this. Let's drop it for now.

Meta Andrew T.

Sure, end of discussion.

Aibobot

@Shree lol

Right. Cause a talking dog isn't strange enough ;p

forest

06:29

On the internet, no one knows you're a dog... Unless you use a dog as your profile pic!

Shree

:)

BTW, Every tavern's know he is watch dog :P

Shree

07:38

Meta Bites when you don't know proper English :(

We / I are not native English speaker but we / I love SO/SE.

Tinkeringbell

@Shree This meta? Where?

Shree

:( See time line and I aware for meta vote.

Journeyman Geek

@Shree helping each other is a critical part of community

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Yeah but some of the comments there could definitely have been nicer. And I can see a lot of downvotes too from before the edits, which is indeed kinda... I understand.

I'm glad to see most people did try to help though :)

Shree

07:54

I believe on community and MOD . I don't against them. If my question is so bad / off topic , delete that but but ...... after edit ...... I am not native English spicker don't mean i get DV :( I know how meta vote works but :(

ShaWiz

@Shree not about English. SE is not responsible for userscripts written by others.

Userscript broke? It's 100% its author responsibility to fix it.

Journeyman Geek

@Shree I didn't do anything as a mod

@ShaWiz eh. You can. Have an unpopular or wrong opinion and express it well enough to have people appreciate it

Shree

@JourneymanGeek No I don't say so. After edit I got upvote why ?

Journeyman Geek

Honestly? Because it was clearer

But that's precisely the intent of the edits here

Shree

Is this about my language @ShaWiz

ShaWiz

07:59

@Shree nope... I'm pretty sure at least some downvotes are due to people who don't think SE should spend time on those things.

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz eh. That dosen't explain the post edit votes

And it's pretty important for folks to be aware that stuff could/did break on it's own

Shree

@ShaWiz No. for this down vote is enough and I aware for that. But after edit mean ...............

ShaWiz

@JourneymanGeek didn't say all downvotes... those who downvoted due to unclearness likely reverted the vote after edits.

Journeyman Geek

Yup

I think it was -3 when Rene edited

ShaWiz

who's Rene?

Journeyman Geek

08:05

The blur flower ;p

ShaWiz

oh... Balpha's brother

Shree

I know that :P

Journeyman Geek

@Shree if someone has something that's important to say - I think we owe it to the community to help them say it

Even. If it's wontfix or not obviously useful

Shree

You are legend :)

ohhhh. Thanks for all assist and reply.

Bart

Hey @JourneymanGeek ... you're terrible! There, a bit of balance. We can't go and call people legends all willy-nilly. Before you know it, it goes to their head.

Mithrandir

08:16

They'll start thinking they know how to read maps.

ShaWiz

Dog drunk with power is dangerous, he might start chewing homework.

:D

Magisch

Monday morning and 3 printer breakages later in the office with a cold

ShaWiz

Something in that sentence is missing?

Three printers broke, but who got a cold?

Magisch

me

Journeyman Geek

The office

ShaWiz

08:26

lol

@Magi feel well! Have some....

Magisch

yas mint tea

Tinkeringbell

Talking about mint tea... did you manage to drink all of it already @Magisch?

ShaWiz

BTW @Bart

in Shadow's Den, 45 secs ago, by Pseudohuman

@ShaWiz Short form of Bartholomew

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell no,

around 40% left

I only drink 2-3 litres a day

Bart

@ShaWiz lies!

Tinkeringbell

08:27

@Magisch XD That's still a lot of mint tea!

@ShaWiz It's definitely short for Bartje

ShaWiz

@Bart cakes!

Bart

Ooh, gimme

ShaWiz

@Magisch of tea?!

Magisch

@ShaWiz yas

spearmint tea

ShaWiz

Bart

08:29

Ugh, I will get myself a coffee then ...

ShaWiz

Thanks Music.SE for finding this for me! :P

3

Q: Video clip of a song in a beach, big guy with pink sunglasses

I've seen a video clip on VH1 a while ago, loved it and planned to download the song/clip, forgot about it, and now can't find it again. The video showed party on a beach, and what I remember most is a very large guy, think with a ponytail, and wearing pink glasses. He was not part of the band a...

@Magisch wow.... hope that without any added sugar?

Bart

@ShaWiz haha, well done

Magisch

@ShaWiz no sugar

just tea

self brewed

Mithrandir

"Tea, spearmint, hot."

ShaWiz

@Magisch nice!

Magisch

08:35

These days I drink it cool

by brewing it when I get home, letting it cool and then refrigerating when I go to bed

Tinkeringbell

Sounds nice :)

Meta Andrew T.

08:54

@ShaWiz that's not Music.SE, that's MusicFans.SE! .-.

I mean, your question would be closed as off-topic on Music.SE...

ShaWiz

O_o

Mithrandir

@ShaWiz ?

ShaWiz

throwing music on @Meta

Mithrandir

(Sorry. That turned out long.)

ShaWiz

@Mithrandir ?

Mithrandir

09:09

2

Q: Let's take a look at the interaction between staff and the "power users" of the network

Recently, it was announced that the "Hot on Meta" questions would no longer show up on the SO sidebar. Sara Chipps elaborated a drop on why: Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta. They are real human beings that are ...

discussion

3

ShaWiz

@Mithrandir didn't @Journeyman post something like that 6-8 weeks ago?

Mithrandir

Don't think so. If he did, I missed it, and he didn't mention anything when I asked him for feedback the other day.

ShaWiz

plz-delete cameras meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331507/… @Bart @rene @Glorfindel

@Mithrandir hmm.... oh well. :)

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Meh. The things about IPS were a bit different: It wasn't only the Tweet. Sure, that started the process of looking at IPS, but we did have a lot of meta activity saying HNQ was the bane of our existence, and they took that into account too. Also, I did know IPS was out of HNQ when you posted the tweet in chat, but it was told to us in a private moderator room and I had asked if I could share it but not gotten any answers yet. There was communication ;)

Mithrandir

Alright, but that's still not exactly communication with the community.

Tinkeringbell

09:16

That's true... At least they fixed that the same day :)

It's a very good looking post otherwise :)

rene

09:31

@ShaWiz I was too late :( but this time I was beaten by another Dutch user ...

Magisch

@mith thats a long post

Mithrandir

Guilty as charged.

Bart

Good post though

Magisch

@Bart I have a theory. You're actually Bartholomew van Glasses

Meta Andrew T.

@Mithrandir Let me favorite it first...

Bart

09:36

@Magisch I can neither confirm nor deny that

Aibobot

hm.

That's not good

apparently we're getting converted from monitoring/l1 support to helpdesk.l1 support

and there's supposedly new team that just does monitoring.

what this really means is... we're basically having helpdesk added to our workload

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz naw

@Magisch that's what I said ;p

rene

@Aibobot awesome, isn't it? Finally real people to talk with ...

Aibobot

@rene we cover 2 of their shifts anyway

so basically its just the company cheaping out ;p

Magisch

@Aibobot a for profit company cheaping out? Say it aint so :p

Aibobot

09:47

@Magisch oh, we were told there would be new hires for helpdesk

what's practically going to happen is the new monitoring team will likely be vaproware

a dedicated monitoring team isn't a bad idea of course

Magisch

10:38

@Mithrandir I really like your post but I feel it either wont get a response or will just get a noncommital one.

Meta Andrew T.

The best we can do is to keep our positive support and our fingers cross...

Aibobot

@Magisch well, gotta start somewhere

Its important to have moderate, reasonable voices heard as much as the...

well less moderate ones

Magisch

moderate is easier to ignore

Aibobot

eh

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch moderate is also a lot easier to interact with.

Aibobot

10:47

@Magisch if you keep hearing only the bad stuff, how are you going to even know there's more moderate voices?

Magisch

depends. If you've got fires to put out moderate is not as immediately important and will fall by the wayside easier

Aibobot

@Magisch that literally sounds like "There's no point in doing anything, and let the mean, loud people win"

Magisch

I'm more or less convinced the current iteration of the community <-> company relationship is utterly beyond redemption

the earth has been scorched, salted and radioactive waste has been spread over it

Meta Andrew T.

Well, if those non-meta-regular SE employees have the same fright as a new user posting on main site, then perhaps there's a problem?

Aibobot

@Magisch well then there's no point in anything and we can give up ad go... where?

Or we can try reaching out, at least until everyone has given up

and encourage the folks who're trying cause, well, I assume its something worth fighting for

Tinkeringbell

10:49

@Magisch Fires to put out ... sure, putting out fires may take time away from the moderate interactions... but there's something in the metaphor of putting out the fire that's nice: If you create a fire, all that happens is you're going to be put out.

Magisch

option 2 is to accept the relationship will be based on mutual distrust and disrespect into the foreseeable future and decide whether you want to stay here with that information in mind.

Meta Andrew T.

(excuse my words, can't think clearly after getting beaten by this SDK...)

Aibobot

@Magisch eh, that isn't the SE I want though

Magisch

me neither, but I'm more of a realist then an optimist

and harboring false hope hurts more in the end

It's a bit like playing a game by EA or activision. You know you will never like the company and neither will any part of the community in that game, but the game might still be fun

Meta Andrew T.

I'm also realist, evenmore pessimist, and the best thing to do in this case is by saying nothing that may influence others negatively...

Magisch

10:54

still, I appreciate mith taking the time to write this up

it's an insightful and balanced take on the situation

Meta Andrew T.

Currently we're playing in Hard Mode: any ~~trust~~ restoration items are cut by 80%, and damage taken is boosted by 200%.

Aibobot

@Magisch so there's basically 3 approaches to this

Meta Andrew T.

And SE's ~~trust~~ health is probably... 5% right now.

Magisch

It's a bit like at wikipedia

Aibobot

one is to do nothing. But the folks who're giving anxiety attacks to SE staff are... not going to be doing nothing

We can be just as bad as them and go on the offensive

but we're not that sort of people

Meta Andrew T.

10:58

(see how depressing it was after I stated this... hhh...)

Aibobot

or we can, well drown out that noise with the sort of messages we want folks to hear.

Meta Andrew T.

And now I'm craving for salad

Aibobot

0_0

Ok. Now I want to know what exactly makes you crave for salad 0_0

Magisch

the crunchy and tasty goodness of a nice salad, of course

ShaWiz

I had mini salad

Shree

11:11

I have full plate salad with beer can :)

Aibobot

I had... instant noodles ._.

Tinkeringbell

one slice of bread with sprinkles, one with cheese, and milk. I don't like the salads at work, they're always skimpy with the dressings.

Magisch

Y'all wore me down i'll get a salad later for dinner

was planning on omlette but salad sounds better now

ShaWiz

11:37

@Mithrandir I admire your effort. It's beyond perfect. But really... in three words: waste of time.

status-too-much-salt

Aibobot

@ShaWiz amazingly true of what you think of it too ;p

ShaWiz

I had my share

Aibobot

@ShaWiz and yeah, It probably isn't good for me but my food options here are limited ._.

ShaWiz

Even burger is better

Aibobot

@ShaWiz I'm veggie

and there's literally no food options here outside what I pack (proper homecooked lunch with lots of veggies)

but its a 12 hour day so.... I do need something that won't go bad and stores well stashed away

ShaWiz

11:41

@Aibobot these days many places got veggie burgers

Aibobot

@ShaWiz er, there's literally nowhere to eat nearby.

Other than the work canteen

I really wish there were better options

ShaWiz

@Aibobot expatliving.sg/best-vegetarian-burger-singapore

Aibobot

@ShaWiz er...

My workplace in a place called tuas

ShaWiz

@Aibobot ror?

Aibobot

there is literally nothing nearby but factors

ShaWiz

11:43

:(

No delivery option?

Aibobot

massively expensive

Mithrandir

@ShaWiz Maybe... but I'll do my best to procure a video of you eating socks.

ShaWiz

@Aibobot ask for a raise

Magisch

There are stores that sell edible (but not wearable) socks

ShaWiz

Demand refund :)

@Magisch that's cheating

I'll eat actual wearable socks ;)

Magisch

11:46

make sure they're 100% cotton though

polyester in stomach is not recommended

ShaWiz

yeah

Aibobot

@ShaWiz I would argue complaining nothing will change is a waste of time too ;p

ShaWiz

I always waste my time :P

plz-delete Java jars meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331520/… @rene @Bart

Magisch

13:04

It's in times like these I'm especially glad I voted for yvette in the mod election

6

Marshmallow

13:20

@Magisch Spam rush hour?

Magisch

nah the meta trash can fire summer 2019

yvette has a way with words that stops it from becoming even more of a trash can fire and uses the office of being a mod expertly to that purpose

ArtOfCode

meta is always a trashcan fire

Bart

But it's OUR trashc... no wait, still not good.

Magisch

yeah but the size of a trash can fire is important in the consideration

Meta Andrew T.

→ 0 message moved to Trashcan

Tinkeringbell

13:30

@MetaAndrewT. Is that a hint? :P

→ 54 messages moved to Chimney

Not to trashcan, but it clears the air :D

Meta Andrew T.

:D

ShaWiz

14:34

→ 70 angels moved to Heaven

Bart

That's no heaven!

ShaWiz

14:52

@Bart prove

Meta Andrew T.

Proof: 404 Angels Not Found

Bart

@ShaWiz I've been there before. At best it's purgatory.

Feeds

[after typing 1,500 words on feathered dinosaurs, paleontology, sexism, lava, and dinosaurs as animals rather than movie monsters] Sorry to cut it short, I'm on my phone. When I'm back at a keyboard, I can give you another 5,000 words.

Stormblessed

15:09

Fooke1967

1

Destroy user

@JourneymanGeek

Bart

What the fooke?

ShaWiz

15:29

@Stormblessed why? Weird user name is not reason to destroy users.

For such extreme request please give better reasoning...

Also, mod can simply reset display names.

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

15:48

@Stormblessed Are they a spammer?

Stormblessed

17:07

@ShaWiz spam

@SonictheAnonymousWizHog yes

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

@Stormblessed Would be nicer if you indicated that at first, so people wouldn't be confused about why you're asking to destroy the account. For example:

Jun 15 at 7:58, by Sonic the Bracketed Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Spam account: https://meta.stackexchange.com/users/552391/mary-phillips

Stormblessed

@SonictheAnonymousWizHog well I mean mods can see everything is the thinng

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

@Stormblessed Other users in this room can't see everything.

For example, someone assumed that you're asking to destroy the account simply for the username.

Also, destroying the account here may not necessarily be the right action to take in all cases: in a few cases, mods here may need to refer it to a CM for reasons.

Mithrandir

Welp. I completely smashed my phone screen. Looped out doing a manual and landed flat on my back with my phone in my back pouch...

Kevin B

my phone is becoming obsolete

Mithrandir

17:41

@ShaWiz, you're officially a rabbit.

6

rene

17:53

@Glorfindel all gone now

Mithrandir

18:38

@Sonic your edits here unnecessarily changed the style and tone of the post. It was perfectly fine before.

And, in fact, it introduced new typos and was generally not a necessary edit at all.

What even is the point of changing "instead if" to "rather than"? Or moving a sentence to be part of another when it was very clearly put on its own line?

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

@Mithrandir Ah, sorry, I didn't see the line break, since it's hard to see in-paragraph line breaks in the rendered output. I thought those were unnecessary whitespace and removed it.

In my opinion, however, very long paragraphs are difficult to read.

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