Does anyone know why hedgehog was banned?

hm

But why was he banned on main site? o_O

I mean, chat and site kinda different.

@Alex so, we can't discuss suspension of one of the most active users on MSE.

@Suvitruf I think that's more for the benefit of the suspendee, not the suspender.

I'll just say that you could follow the history on this chat room if you feel like it (hint: it's not the first time)

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Water as a fuel: waterfuelengineering.com/en - While there's reason to be skeptical: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… there are creditable sources too: scientificamerican.com/article/can-cars-use-water-for-fuel .

@andmyself Yeah, I did it. And couldn't find the reason to ban him on main site at all.

@Suvitruf the next line practically explains it

It's ~educational~

Because it's not the first time.

I know that they have some issues (Sonic and Catija). But I don't think that it's only his fault.

So?

Chat ban should be enough. No?

@Suvitruf we've tried that, repeatedly

I'm sure they suddenly understood the subtleties of interpersonal communication :P

And here's the thing, while I hate negative reinforcement - we've tried a few things and... they've failed so far

But probably ban on the main site will make things worse.

@Suvitruf Well, no.

it helps because Journeyman will stop seeing their activity

@JourneymanGeek Don't think that it will change something in his behavior.

@Suvitruf Well, if we don't, we're still keeping him away from something that encourages deeply unhealthy behavior.

Now historically, in general, I've felt there's three main reasons to suspend someone - to discourage a specific problem behavior, to protect other people from a users, or to protect a user from themselves.

And the point of a suspension isn't the suspension. Its the intended change in behavior.

I don't want to suspend someone a second, third for forth time

1-year suspensions can help with that

And every so often I need to go "Do I feel comfortable dealing with the fallout if I step out, and do what I feel is needed"

@AndrasDeak quite frankly - I'd rather not

From a mod perspective, a 1 year suspension is a "you're hopeless, go away"

@AndrasDeak (¬‿¬ )

I'm aware of that

What I'd like to gain from this is - a chance to actually change the rules of communication a little.

Being a mod is not about swinging a great big hammer.

Don't remember when suspensions actually has changed behavior in a good way.

(ok, unless you're a spammer)

@Suvitruf in which case the other option is to let the problem behavior have less of a concequence

My confidence in your judgement for handing out suspensions has greatly diminished

@AndrasDeak I'm used to people questioning judgements here.

At the end of the day though - you're not sitting here trying to work out if you're doing the right thing

I know, and I remember you mention being criticized on SU

@JourneymanGeek it's all about main site ban. Chat ban is kinda legit.

When it's other people complaining I assume they are wrong, because most mods are fair

@JourneymanGeek I got your point. Not sure if I 100% agree with it, but thanks for answering anyway )

I only reconsider when facing contradictory evidence

Ask long as someone higher up is satisfied with whatever answer is provided then the decision is correct, otherwise they can alter it.

@Rob it's rare that diamonds actively contradict each other's decision

@Suvitruf which is also fine.

@AndrasDeak hah. We internally argue a lot

It's usually 1. Support, 2. Apology and fix by who messed up

And that's essential

@JourneymanGeek publicly?

Not always

at least on SO it's very rare to see mods contradict/undo what someone else did

Of course private disagreement can lead to public self-correction

@AndrasDeak the problem with that is if you do so publicly, folks assume you can drive a wedge between mods

@JourneymanGeek they also can think that mods have different opinions.

I know, and I never said this is bad. Just that "higher-ups endorse the decision" is not something we users will ever learn

@Suvitruf we can

And I've totally disagreed with decisions a mod or cm made over something

@AndrasDeak 99% of the time, we're trusted to do the right thing

I'd say you do the right thing 99% of the time

Probably more

I never pretended to be perfect

If you (or other mods) don't talk about your disagreement publicly, users think that you agree with it.

We had some issues with it on SOru.

And I often step back when my allegedly mythical temper gets in the way

it's difficult because mods are both police and politicians

@Suvitruf well ideally we talk about it first

I just want to remind you that you can try handling issues on the room level before handing out suspensions

We do

It might say a lot that almost everything can be solved by room owners and communication based on my experience on The Most Toxic Chat

(Assuming toxicness carries over from main to chat)

Well assuming the understanding between users us there

That's what communication is for

It's still a process.

And kicks escalate starting from 1 minute for a reason

And that's to give ROs time :p

It's good for handling heat of the moment issues

Sending a message, less so

Just to be clear I'm still talking about myself. I'm still here being salty two days later. Not exactly de-escalation.

Which is what makes me a bit generally skeptical about sonic, but that's a very different kettle of hornet fish

AFAIK, the CM also agreed about the suspension

But here's the thing. Would you intentionally do whatever it was again?

does "not being here because I no longer find the place welcoming" count as yes or no?

I have what I believe is reasonable judgement in how to talk to people, so I'll always do what I feel is right (which might include not being here if I don't feel I can expect fairness from whom makes the calls)

which is not to say this would be a huge loss to anyone

Should have worn your pointy boots:

@AndrasDeak well you're here now

@AndrasDeak I've totally been told off once or twice when I've lost my cool.

Embarrassingly someone 'Language!'ed me on Root Access

@Rob wicked witch of the east

@Rob a man that wears shoes like that... Ain't afraid of nothing

It's a thing, mexican pointy boots. No Kansas involved.

@JourneymanGeek Those are the boots to wear if you want to risk some name calling.

They used to make full height coyboy boots with toes like this, I guess they went out of style. These are fighting toes:

TBF, it's not only Journeyman who has suspended him. Shog has also suspended him.

That's foretelling! Amazon is sold out of the "Sonic Y-Back Suspender":

@Rob that's the joke

🏃🌩️

They were sold to Stack Exchange.

Oh joy

Sunny when left home

Heavy rain after I got on a bus

Heh. Also thunderstorm when I wanted to go outside ;p

@andmyself I love how people say this channel doesn't discuss suspensions, but the next day I come into the channel, I see discussion on suspensions a few lines up. :D

This must be a more common topic than I thought.

(Reading scroll log to see if there's any drama I missed)

Oh. We don't discuss the specifics. If people keep bringing it up, what can we do, suspend them?

Throw eggs at their house.

@Alex Wow that's harsh.

What did the chickens do to you that you might throw the fruit of their loins as an insult?

Chicken doesn't taste good.

I will insult them all I like. Nasty dry white meat.

Huh, Sonic has always been helpful to me at least.

I wonder what he did.

He's super active with editing and fixing tags on MSE.

@forest Scroll up a bit from the message I linked.

@forest made Shog9 left this chat room totally.

@Alex Aight

@forest being a useful contributor is a little more than edits and trying to bring order to chaos thought

So like

Sonic was pinging people that didn't want to talk to him?

Can pings from specific people be disabled on chat?

Nope

Ouch

Seems like a design flaw.

@JourneymanGeek I don't think you get pings from ignored users?

I think "ignore user" does disabling the ping, but it includes hiding all the user's messages

Huh, reading the linked scroll log, I can't see where Sonic was harassing anyone. Seems he was just pinging someone to ask a question and make small talk.

Is there some kind of internet restraining order going on? O_o

@forest Wow, just wow

Scroll more, or perhaps the messages have been deleted because it's deemed too creepy

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I hate chicken. fite me!

You're worse than the celery hater!

@andmyself I don't see any (deleted) or whatever.

Just talk about Sears closing.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Well celery can be nice, if you include peanut butter.

(deleted) doesn't appear on transcipt though

oh

Peanut butter has always been 'too much' for me

I see a mild argument about pings.

I can only take very small doses

Catija saying that she doesn't want to have to respond to pings and stuff.

@andmyself From what I recall, all the relevant messages are still there.

@JourneymanGeek RO kicks scale? Nice, never got the chance to try kicking more than once

Honestly from an outsider's perspective, it seems like (yet more) overreactions from something as mild as someone making small talk and pinging them.

Note to self: Do not ping Catija unless prepared for site-wide suspensions.

@Alex some messages got deleted, that's for sure, because I was mostly there at that time.

(uh, if I say someone's name, it doesn't ping them unless I prepend @, right?)

@forest Correct.

cool

@andmyself I assume its presence can be inferred by chat message IDs jumping?

@andmyself Perhaps nothing significant, then. The transcript looks about the same as I remember the conversation happening.

@JourneymanGeek That is so dramatic. You should look out the window and ask someone to film it

@forest not really... chat message ID is shared in a single chat server (other rooms on the same chat server)

oh

(Right, looking at you, Den!)

I had troubles with that when I was working on bespoke imageboard software.

Where different threads would have their own ID namespace. It was horrible.

@forest I don't think you need to worry about an occasional ping, especially if it's on-topic.

Well I've been kicked for the phrase "scr*wed with" before.

So I'll be extra cautious.

@forest often it's also about overall behavior

Right. It was after I was so rude as to say that intentionally damaging random people's reputation was a "d*ck move", which seems to have offended someone.

If folks ask you not to do something and you're trying to find out exactly what the lines are, people may be less patient

Also if you constantly complain about it

I complain about it because it's a ridiculous thing to get kicked for, especially with numerous examples of sh*t and f*ck in the chat log that did not result in kicks.

And someone else here got kicked for cr*p, so I really have no possible way to know where the lines are, much less know where they are to push them.

Well to a certain extent there's intent and chat culture

@Alex well context is one thing

Well when I used the phrase "d*ck move", I had not done anything prior to it to push boundaries or anything of the sort, so context meant nothing there.

The other is I guess, if you're convinced you're right, it will keep happening

@forest for the user as a whole

And the chat room

No, for the action.

For the chat room? Huh?

Yup!

I didn't say anything about a chat room.

Well, the difference is when it's used to describe someone/something... as stated on CoC...

I just said that this person was being a d*ck for intentionally hacking rep.

@andmyself The term is interchangeable with "jerk".

@Rob All instances in Wikipedia are charlatans I'm afraid. Check out the scientific American link, it explains everything clearly.

then don't use it at all, it is offensive anyway.

I swear the last 5 minutes has been an excuse to use thinly disguised swear words

One could always say, of course, that the action was unfair to others. Rather than invoking Richard's name

That's what it says.

What the h-e-double hockey sticks was that kick for? I was literally censoring every word that could even possibly be found offensive even with the most stringent definition of offense! Can someone please explain to me?

FWIW, I'm tolerable with mild profanity/swear word that isn't directed at anyone/anything. Heck, I'm using it (like, just now). But using it to belittling someone?

@forest well why not... Not use them?

I mean I think everyone here by now knows the context

@JourneymanGeek How in the world would I know that the sc-word was offensive, or that the j-word was? I mean I know of all the bad words like the f-word, and I never use it. But I genuinely cannot tell what that previous kick was for.

Was it the j-word?

Don't test the water. Otherwise, we can only give you the way out.

I am not testing the water. I am asking what possible bad word I used.

@forest quite frankly it really feels like we are creating drama for it's own sake

@JourneymanGeek You can feel whatever you want, but all I see is getting kicked over and over for words that my Catholic grandmother would not object to.

Excellent. She can join chat.

Did someone say a Bufflehead, a d*ck:

And then when I use perfectly polite phraseology that a 5 year old child would be happy with, I get told not to "test the waters" or "push boundaries".

@Rob duuuude

@Rob I have a ship that sailed on Birkenhead d*ck. So birken, not buffle

Don't tell anyone but buffleheads seem cuter than bluefeet

@JourneymanGeek Seriously, just give me a bad word list if it's going to be so exceedingly tight and limited. Otherwise there is nothing I can do.

Is birken a type of duck?

The sc-word is bad, the j-word is bad, the d-word is bad. What else?

Ah, dock

Humans have this thing with huge heads

If it has a huge head and you're not imagining it, it's most probably cute

An article I read recently but that I unfortunately cannot locate at the moment made a really great point. It's not the words itself that are obscene. It's the intent behind what you're saying. A word list is pointless, because the words are not the issue. It's more an issue of how you're expressing yourself - if you're more likely to be using vulgar (note: not obscene) language, then you're more likely to be speaking in an obscene way as well.

@Mithrandir Oh I get it, I know there are plenty of bad phrases with benign words. But saying that someone is "being a j*rk" or that something got "scr*wed with"? I would have never, not once in my life, thought of that as so offensive.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I thought bloaty head?

alt + 0151, change that obscene hyphen into an emdash

@Mithrandir this

@andmyself TIreL that Game-related Wikipedia pages are censored too

@forest if you're mainly complaining about ... "censorship" and "puritian language" in spaces which are shared - and you seem to constantly test the boundaries...

Currently on TV Daniel Craig just killed Xavier Bardem

@JourneymanGeek I'm willingly censoring myself.

not even counting that, well, this is kind of a lot of drama over... stuff that usually gets handled and forgotten.

(wow, I got censored)

So, no, we don't have a wassname

@forest Everything depends on context, how toxic you're otherwise being, and if you've been warned before. It's not the language itself that's the issue; it's that you're being toxic and constantly trying to press the limits of what folks here are comfortable with.

7 dirty words.

@Mithrandir If you read the scroll logs, I was very polite before I was first kicked.

I asked what someone was doing in the past, and I was told they were exploiting a bug to delete other people's rep (I was later told that it was temporary and the result of caching). I said that person was being a j*rk, and got kicked.

Someone cursing on RA would get a language! cause I know it works with them, and I've never had to kick anyone (and most suspensions are anonymous flags)

He-double hockey sticks, simply mentioning that someone is being a j*rk for explicitly ruining other people's reputation is going against the CoC or something? If I said that Bittaker and Noris were a pair of rather unpleasant people, would I get suspended for that for being rude to them?

@forest see - toxity isn't just what you say

its the tendancy to ... generally be argumentative and drama seeking for its own sake

So here - we've had you kicked multiple times for language and related drama. You might, I donno

take a walk, or give the place an hour for you to cool down

Cause I personally feel you might need to chill

It's like the filter on the HNQ List, what sort of titles come up and how will they be interpreted by a few.

If I give the place an hour and come back, will I just get kicked the next time I say something that's not positive about a troll? Or use a word that I had never known was a bad word? I mean I'd love to put this behind me, but as I see it, no matter what I do, you'll find something I said and call it offensive.

I will try to be as absolutely polite and unoffensive as I can possibly be.

@forest you might want to just... put it behind you.

eh, its not rocket surgery.

@forest Here's a promise: If you act like you deserve it, I promise to assume good faith.

But please, if I use a word or phrase that is offensive for some reason, just tell me that it's offensive and I'll try to remember not to use it. Don't just kick me out of the blue for the j-word or the sc-word. That doesn't teach me, it just makes me mad.

;)

That wink is fake

TOTALLY fake

Ok?

It is, I'm too stressed to wink.

Everything is a word - There, I've explained everything to you.

@forest what works for me is to think twice before posting anything, review it, and look on it as a side viewer who is easily offended from the most trivial things.

:/

Now, I actually walked in here at the moment not to deal with a mess, but to knock my head against a brick wall and groan.

@ShadowWizard I tend to try to see the effect my words have

@ShadowWizard That's what I've been trying to do, by going through each word individually and trying to think of any conceivable negative connotations.

@Mithrandir I'm sorry

@JourneymanGeek sure, but it's harder to predict

@ShadowWizard When you stop to think twice and review your comments, the conversation is already ten comments along by the time you post.

@ShadowWizard cough cough I'm choking on air now

@ShadowWizard it works cause its not easy

@Alex true, but better safe than sorry...

Everything?

cause sometiimes you need to actually be a little hard, or hurt someone's feelings for a greater purpose

Example: I would not have said what @M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ just said because of a worry that I would be kicked for being dismissive to people who have lost loved ones to choking-related accidents. That's the level of self-censorship I'm trying to employ.

and least from where I am, deal with all the unhappy people ;p

@Mithrandir Any particular reason?

@JourneymanGeek reference to the need to suspend people?

@forest now you are just being hypobolic

@Alex I got my first summons from the army today. :|

hypo what?? lol

@ShadowWizard or the few instances where I yell at people

@JourneymanGeek No, this genuinely how I am trying to filter my words right now.

@Mithrandir congrats? why flat face? :|

@forest lets consider this

@ShadowWizard Not... looking forwards to it

Everyone on RA's sweary in private, and don't constantly tip toe

@Mithrandir Didn't you say something a while back about not being able to serve, or something?

Or did I just make that up?

@Alex I said I hoped to get an exemption :p

That said, I should have used my time to continue watching the YouTube video...

@JourneymanGeek I wasn't able to parse that.

and eat the leftover pizza...

and hopefully there comes a day when I can just go "hey, knock that off!" or kick someone and not... well, have to explain myself in detail here

cause everyone knows what that it

@Mithrandir The summons doesn't mean that you can't get the exemption, though, correct?

Right.

We'll see. I have at least until May to follow through with all the doctor visits I've been pushing off.

@forest I mean, folks on root access do/did swear

we have our language rules because its a good balance that lets us keep talking without, well, most of this

@JourneymanGeek I get the problem with swearing. I don't get what the problem is with the j-word or the sc-word. I never considered those to be curses.

@andmyself I will use it to mean definition 3 from now on

We assume good intent, have a no foul way of dealing with it, and generally respect each other.

@Mithrandir Well, good luck.

@Mithrandir what's your פרופיל? Any chance you'll be forced to serve as קרבי?

Assume good intent, but insta-kick for the most mild language, rather than saying something like "well in here, the j-word is a no-no. Say it again and you get kicked".

@forest in context though, you're trying to work out what words you can get away with

@ShadowWizard definitely not

@JourneymanGeek No, I am trying to use the absolutely most benign words I can.