Put it the other way round. What harm could come of it?

The reason I'm the one making those posts now is to get Joe and the rest of DAG away from it. They don't need it, it's what I'm here for.

@ArtOfCode Us having to put out fires for over-moderation of MSE.

Why do you need to be abused instead of DAG?

@Catija is that likely? I don't think there's any inherent characteristic of MSE that makes that any more likely than you having to play firefighter on any other meta site.

I'm sure you could work with mods to say how much moderation you want

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (94): Is UX Copyrightable? ✏️ by Rastsislau Paliak on ux.SE

It's complicated.

And I probably don't even know all of it.

What's OK on a site or even a child meta... just doesn't correlate to what we allow here and I'm pretty sure that's intentional. Moderating MSE doesn't come with a manual...

Would it feel less crappy to clean up more of it - absolutely. But I don't know that now when everyone is already pissed at us for a variety of things is the time to start silencing people who are being rude to us.

We already have so many people complaining that we don't listen to anything. Deleting their rude complaints would just make things worse.

Aye, agree. Now probably isn't the time. But I think it's an avenue worth investigating.

I don't think moderating any of our sites came with a manual, so we're all used enough to making it up :)

^ Just a note that Art is basically volunteering by saying that, so please don't ask me :P

Think about Tim's message a few days ago in TL. Nobody needs to be asked to accept abuse as part of their job.

I don't know that I saw it, to be honest...

I won't quote it :)

I never thought this would be easy. It's not... but you really learn how much you want to do it, being here. My IPS meta response took me hours to write. It's not perfect but I had to write it... for myself... I want the network to be better, so even though it hurts, I keep going back to those meta posts to see where we can improve the things we can... And we want to...

@Catija So tell the people you select to be extrordinarily careful

You know, you have a selection of people here who are delicate and used to being discrete up to and including to a fault

There is no reason to believe they couldn't behave themselves

There's a distinction between accepting harsh criticism and accepting abuse

I understand the concern ... but you're in a almost unique position of having a proposition where nothing is likely to ever go wrong. Better yet, even if they screw up, they're people from our side, so nobody's gonna be mad at SE for what volunteers mess up

@Magisch I'm not sure I would trust anyone who wanted to mod MSE to moderate it.

@ArtOfCode (huh, feeling deja vu...)

@JourneymanGeek This is why they should just pick

they could sentence volunteer some tributes like tink or art

I'm less frustrated by the abuse than I am by having people really, truly think that we don't care. I know this sucks and it hurts and it's changing things around and sites are losing things now... but there's a goal in it and we want things to be better and it will be better, we just had to make a decision about when to start changing things. Everyone I've talked to here cares.

But people everywhere feel that nobody cares

nothing the community team has put out so far has put a dent in that assumption

@Catija Actually I have a different viewpoint, though I'm a bit awkward about it

that y'all are stretched super thin

@Magisch What do you want? We're not going to just stop. We can't.

I assume you read the MSE thread. The feeling that nobody at SE cares anymore is in every negative comment, and it has only increased

@Magisch it has been like that since CoC and "New contributor" badge, nothing change much

don't just say it could have been done better.

Do better, this time, not next time

@Catija well, in a sense one of the core issues is every time that we get a change that is percieved as being driven externally no matter that the truth is people feel super hurt

I mean, there's even a comment by someone from SE that is always quoted, that SE is starting to ignore core users

I'll be passionately on the side that HNQ should be gone, but I want to have a voice in the matter

@Somewhat eh, in a sense.

@Magisch This isn't about IPS wanting anything... Since IPS went live, the network has been complaining about their content in the sidebar. We've tried to fix it the ways we can by limiting the title content but there's only so much we can do about it. I've been sitting through complaints about IPS in here, on Chat.SO, and in the TL since the day it hit the HNQ the first time.

Specific communities have had similar, localised issues in the past

@Catija So? Be honest with the community

I have never seen such repeated, derisive discussions about one site in my time here.

We've had plenty of meta threads but we've fielded none of these complaints ourselves

just "oh, you're out now"

"this could have been done better but lets move on" isn't good enough

maybe even have the discussion on MSE so everyone who dislikes IPS can have their say, but

Another round of "we hear you, we'll do better next time" will not fix a thing. This is the second time in less then a year. At some point promising to do better does not cut it

And what do we do if they say "leave it in"? It doesn't fix the problem we have.

@Catija Maybe I'm thick headed, but if people were complaining about IPS in HNQ and IPS was complaining about IPS in HNQ... why didn't it happen? It clearly takes ~30 person/minutes of dev time

@thesecretmaster IPS always wanted to stay in the HNQ.

I'm not sure that is the solution, @Magisch. I'm not sure what is, but it has to be not entirely counterproductive for SE

@Catija If the entire network comes to the conclusion that IPS should be left in, staff needs to reconsider if their opinion and a twitter rant should override network community consensus

FFS, I wrote the answer myself.

@Catija something I want to suggest on meta is that - well eventually there's got to be a protocol for dealing with these things if they happen off site. One of the big things that has people annoyed is that it seems its easier to make changes if you're someone with a certain following on twitter.

@Catija Ah, ok. I misunderstood that. Thanks for correcting me.

I suspect it'll be a swift "yeah remove or heavily restrict" on all counts

but the process matters

some of us have been complaining about IPS on this room...

Once again, not saying its the truth. But its something that SE's going to need to think about the next time, well...

@Aibobot That's already in the works. It's a problem we recognize and we need to fix.

Even having a chance to present your complete and best case on the matter before a decision is made is better then having the decision made behind your back

even if the eventual decision does not fall in your favor

@Magisch hence the whole talk of a protocol to deal with these things

And well hindsite is 20/20

I'm saying y'all need to go back on the drawing board with this. Reset, pretend the 16th never happened, start a discussion, hear the arguments, then decide. Even if you decide against consensus, it'll be better for the network

off-topic (both in this thread and the site) needs close votes ... thx

We'd always do things differently and better once we see the burning remains of the decision we made

I get that this has hurt people on IPS, @Magisch, and SE do too. But re-hashing the whole thing has the potential for spite votes and just rekindling the whole dumpster fire.

you think doing nothing will be better?

@Magisch wellllll....

I think agreeing a plan for moving forward would be better.

We heart that the last time

I think we're basically in a stage where things got really really bad, and we're working out how to rebuild stuff.

and it changed nothing

Instead of moving backwards.

there's no reason to assume this time will be any different

even with all the benefit of the doubt you could possibly give, SE is 0/3 on that issue

We're not doing nothing, @Magisch! We've got 40+ answers of how to move forward and how t make the HNQ more useful. We're backlogged dealing with site themes and AaQ and Custom Questions lists (not to mention the holidays) but we want to fix this.

@Catija It looks like nothing and feels like nothing from the outside

The answers feel like damage control, the discussion feels like "lets give them some space to vent so they leave us alone"

@Catija :( yanno, I really wish there was more resources to deal with that. We've been hearing of backlogs for years

I know you care and I know that's not true, but even knowing that it still feels like that

How do you want to be involved, @Magisch? Assume we can't go back and rehash the IPS/HNQ question, but moving on how would you feel involved?

@Catija My two cents? Before you even get started on that, send everyone on a PR/social media training. That seems to be where the real backlog lies.

@Magisch what if the top 2 answers were: 1) yes, please IPS on HNQ, and 2) no, IPS is too distracting on HNQ

@ArtOfCode don't know. It feels like the community hasn't been a part of the decision making process since the blog post in april

@Tinkeringbell whatever happens, awareness of not speaking for the company without authorisation needs to happen, but I think Tim has things in the works there

@Somewhat Then the team would consider the arguments made and come to a informed decision and communicate that correctly

and it'd be better then to find out a change has been made through a derisive and rude twitter thread a full day after the change was made

@ArtOfCode I hope so.

@Magisch I get that, honestly. But we cannot refuse to move on until SE agrees to our ransom demands. We've got to have some way of saying "Okay, SE hasn't been doing great at involving you, so how do we reconcile and carry on?"

@ArtOfCode whatever they say, it's going to feel disingenous until it comes with some actual teeth

e.g some visible taking and using of community feedback to make decisions

even if criticised by external sources for these decisions

@Magisch okay, so there's the plan. That's what I'm trying to tease out. It'll start with a "sorry we'll do better", of course, but moving on if SE starts engaging with feedback more you would feel more involved?

Next SE Podcast: Adam apologized for IPS/HNQ drama, like... wut.

Solution: Instead of apologies, You get swag, you get swag, you all get swag ....

@ArtOfCode I have a 0% hope for that to happen, but sure

@Magisch its messy.

given at how I've seen IPS being insulted outright, members assumed to have a pure malice of intent, and then adam doesn't defend our site, but agrees with the abusers and makes changes based on their rants

I kinda think part of the thing is SO (and SE) kinda... grew really fast, and no one noticed

No, there's no reconciling this without some extraordinary measures

and with situations like this, no one really knows what to do

@Magisch lacking belief is kinda fair at the moment, but noting that is important. It gives SE a suggestion on how to work forward instead of leaving them with " this is terrible do better" without a hint on how.

you know

Besides, I can't really think of anyone off the top of my head who both has massively good diplomatic skills, and social media savvy and gets SE...

@Magisch well, a good question is, knowing what we know now, what would have been a good way to deal with it?

So cc @Catija: if y'all can try to visibly engage with feedback more, that'll help :)

It's not a matter of engaging with feedback, though... we do it constantly. Do you know how many status-completed tags I have added to meta threads over the last few weeks? How many hours I've spent reading feedback on site designs - the amount of work that went into giving WB a design they generally love? We can't make everyone perfectly happy in all things. I'm sorry. It's impossible.

one way to deal with the current outrage if you can't revisit the discussion would be to write a blog post absolutely repudiating the slander against our site

@Tinkeringbell shouldn't the complete meta crowd been sent to that training?

@ArtOfCode I spent six hours writing that IPS meta post.

you can even agree its not for IPS, but SE needs to take a stand against their users being dragged through the mud

@Catija slightly my fault I wanted to save the robot :(

@rene I wouldn't mind free social media training XD

@rene I wouldn't mind getting one either. I've never had an official one. Probably a lot more I could learn.

I'm only interested in the social part ...

vrimibo

Also makes it easier to not be running round as a headless chicken.

@rene sign me up...

@rene Enjoy :) I'm almost ready to go find my train too :D

I think I'll get a vrimibo snack at the station

you can even keep all the measures you've taken and carry on as planned, but we need to know SE will have our back when random people do character asassinations on twitter

@Aibobot on the other hand, it also opened the chance for SciFi.SE to revamp their bland background :)

@Catija in perspective - SE started with 3 CMs for... 4-6 sites. You have 9 for a few hundred.

because that's not just not known, I have no reason to believe we won't be thrown under the bus the next time someone finds something "problematic"

(disagree that the old one was bland but whatever)

@Catija No, I don't know, which is what I meant by visibly. I haven't seen any of it. That's not to deny that you put a ton of work into things, and we appreciate that (and yeah, WB's design is awesome). But people have to see to appreciate. I'm not sure how to solve that problem, so I'm not much help there, but there it is

granted the first batch of PMs probably dual-classed as devs

@PaulWhite ugh. odd. Let me fix that. I haven't touched my profile at all.

@ArtOfCode That's why we have the site themes tracking post - it links to all of those changes.

rant over, I've said my piece

I did see that IPS meta answer, it has an upvote from me on it, and I appreciated seeing you get the problems there.

@Aibobot Bartbot?

@Somewhat pretty sure I mod-abused it back to aibobot

The backlog may be the problem, thinking about it. So much is going into getting themes right that people who care about other things aren't seeing much action.

@ArtOfCode its something that's been... a thing for quite a while though

Aye

@Mithrandir not the old one, but the current one after new theme

Again, not sure how to solve that beyond hire all the people, just brainstorming thoughts

(and ugh, I feel awkward every time I go "Maybe if you guys can't keep up, you should maybe consider getting more CMs)

@ArtOfCode or least consider that it may need expanding, even if they're pulling off less CMs on other things

(or hell. Interns again)

feeling somewhat funny that none of my chat messages got flagged...

@ArtOfCode I can sort of see the arguement for not hiring more CMs.

Its a kind of nebulous job role that's both utterly essential, and kinda like "Ok, how do they actually make the company money".

@cat I'm sorry if it sounded like I was ragging on you in particular, I wasn't, I'm just frustrated at the moment and it all came out at once

I'll make an effort to assume more good faith in future

On the other hand, its a swiss army knife role that kinda has traditionally worked great in multiple things.

@Magisch I know that you are frustrated and I want to help. That's why I'm here. :) No harm done, though. We all want a solution, I just can't give you the one you want right now.

I understand, at least you listened

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body (99): Magento2 installation on shared LAMP stack giving 500 Internal Server Error by Mainer on magento.SE

@PaulWhite about a hundred marketing folks

@PaulWhite but at that time (and I've said this before), Q&A felt in no way a priority

SO was the big crown jewel

and a lot of the current issues we have are basically cleaning up years of benign neglect

@PaulWhite Jmac left, and pops

and a few got moved

I don't know if I should say this, but what if Shog left...

@PaulWhite On the other hand, I've heard a few CMs say they're basically burnt out on meta

@Somewhat I think they'd survive. Thrive on the other hand...

@PaulWhite which comes back to...

CMs don't make the company money directly - but they are a critical resource if the sites are to thrive

@Magisch Let it all out! Let the rage flow through you!

I feel a big mistake (which they are starting to fix) was a lot of CM work went behind the scenes

Oh, man... someone coined the phrase Twitter-Driven Development. Hah...

(Don't get me wrong, a lot of it's good work, but the "tech evangelist"/ community organiser part of it was less visible for quite a bit of time)

@PaulWhite shog's awesome - they'd need just replace him with 3 people, like they did jeff. ;p

true

To restate my rant from last night in a more measured & succinct way: much of my anger at the IPS HNQ removal is that the complaint itself was rooted in sexist bigotry - specifically, the idea that a man being uncomfortable at sexual attention is inherently wrong, and that a community that even allows him to discuss it is sexist too. That belief is absurd, and ought to offend anyone who values individual sexual autonomy. It should've been repudiated; instead, the staff supported it.

whoo caught up with 3rd party cases.

@MarkAmery it could be

but I think people had a more fundamental issue with it

Hmm? I'm not sure what you mean, @Aibobot. About to head into a meeting but will bbl.

@MarkAmery that folks were getting a immediate response for a problem we've been kvetching about for years by tweeting

and the way some things were said

Lets just say folks have been expressing their displeasure both in general and in specific ways about it

@MarkAmery There's definitely an element of that to it

I feel like there should be a company wide apology for not repudiating that chain of tweets

As someone who is autistic myself, I feel insulted and belittled by the blatantly ableist insults towards the question asker of the upper question in that chain of tweets

Anyway, regarding Twitter Driven Development ...

What is YouTube doing on search result of users with 'stackoverflow' keyword???

anyway.......................

30 minutes to midnight

(and unlimited data)

> Inversion of Control, (or IoC), is about getting freedom (You get married, you lost freedom and you are being controlled. You divorced, you have just implemented Inversion of Control. -- What is Inversion of Control? (courtesy(?) of twitter.com/shit_so_says/status/743118601834532864)

A ... part of the reason I'm personally so upset by this is that I've always thought of SE as a place where I could assume no blatant discrimination based on my mental disability would happen

or be supported

you reminded of someone

hm?

@Magisch tbh I think all this started moving even before she did that tweet :(

@Magisch good luck. Best you can hope for is an ultrageneric, "Sorry you feel that way. We'll try to do better."

gah, it's better for me to take a break from this room before I hurt many

@Magisch Its shitty it happened that way, and if we ever see it we will yell at those involved, even politely

But quite literally I think she just wanted to... well poke at IPS with a sharp stick and the attention she got from the earlier post went "ooh, let me complain about that too"

Cause as a mod - you don't ever make my users feel unsafe or unwanted.

I know twitter is a trashfire, I know most of the internet is a trashfire, but SE is usually above that

Except when the CEO mistakes his own company for Blogspot ;P

@Magisch Well, yeah... until the staff manually picks up the burning trash barrel and dumps it into SE... instead of letting it burn in isolation.

@JohnDvorak When something is important enough to someone, they use the tallest soap box available, I guess.

it was effective

at more things than one

@Aibobot huh? Shog is leaving? let popcorn fall

@Magisch where do you mean? I've seen twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/1052314410251837440, which seems bizarre and arbitrary to me but not "blatantly ableist" (in part because I can't think up any rationale for her labelling the Q as "ableist", even a nasty bigoted one); I'm not sure if you're talking about something different?

@MarkAmery The question about telling someone they might be autistic was asked by an autistic person itself

And to suggest that any mention of autism need be censored lest it be "inappropriate" is very ableist

@Magisch Noted - but it's not clear to me whether she even read the Q though, or just the title.

@ShadowWizard not yet ;p

doesn't matter, but putting that there as problematic to begin with feels a lot like "ew get these people and their mental deficiencies away from my eyes"

@Magisch It's not obvious to me whether "any mention of autism need be censored" is her rationale. Not much hope of finding out, either, since her willingness to engage with questions from the community is, uh, limited.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in answer, link at end of answer, pattern-matching website in answer (219): How can you write when you're upset? ✏️ by maxmayer221 on writing.SE

@MarkAmery And its one of those things that clearly is just not going to end well.

@Magisch she's not worth getting upset about if she just wants to get outraged over question titles.

cause that's a damned useful question IMO

I should drop this, agreed

need to obtain a thicker skin

You've gotta love the Twitter feminist thing of treating replies in a public forum as a kind of harassment, too

@MarkAmery I don't think its a feminist thing.

"I get to publicly insult you! You don't get to reply! Now that I have spoken, I own this forum and any attempt to defend yourself is harassing me!"

@PaulWhite the latter part is important

especially if we're upset.

@JourneymanGeek Maybe not, but I've literally never seen it from anyone who wasn't a feminist, and I see it constantly from them. shrug

@MarkAmery Oh I've seen a bit of it

and well

there's a danger in making this about "feminists" vs someone else

Personally, I think that's entirely what this is about

Ah, I disagree

The previous Twitter outrage (CoC core) was caused by feminists, too

or in a sense what was said and who said it was secondary to what happened

As far as I can see, literally all the recent cultural conflict, beginning with the welcoming post, is just a fight between intersectional feminism and the SE community's existing culture

@JohnDvorak and that we need a lot of work towards rebuilding bridges with folks

It's not just about who says it; it's that the ideological basis for the criticisms of us is feminist

@MarkAmery we can go "Oh but those feminists! Telling us what to do!"

or we can go "Hey guys! So, we feel neglected cause you guys did stuff we've been asking for for ages cause someone on twitter said so"

We're saying that you shouldn't listen to the complaints made today ... or to those that caused the CoC

so building bridges and trying to open dialogue vs well... burning bridges

@JohnDvorak I'm saying we need to make those complaints heard in the context of the communities

rather than in the framework of "Us" vs "Them"

looks like we rehashing the Welcoming Blog once again...

OK.. what was the complaint again? "A man wants to avoid sexual interactions with women, please don't allow them to"?

@JohnDvorak and that that didn't belong on a programming site

Which it wasn't on

and there were previous requests to remove IPS from the HNQ that didn't happen

@JohnDvorak she specifically mentioned it being on SO I think

Add a header that clarifies it's a block for non-programming questions.

"Sister sites" or something if you need

@JohnDvorak or "Safe mode" ;p

It's already noted as "Network", but casual users won't generally know if there are sites other than... SO.

"Other sites on Stack Exchange network" really should suffice though

Agreed, "network" doesn't cut it

@Somewhat that's a bit of a thing

plus the different domain between SOFU and *.stackexchange.com

Clarify that HNQ is outside SO, and you should be able to keep IPS in ... if that feminist rant had been the only reason to keep it out.

aight, lemme take this time to remind everyone that this is public record, and I'd really rather not a repeat of the last time we got too caustic about twitter users and called out for it. so consider what you say as if you still wanted to respect the person you're talking about should she choose to read it. Please.

Noted, @Magisch - and there's nothing here I'm uncomfortable with having public

@Magisch nicely put

I'm not in the habit of silencing discussion and will not, but I'd like to caution against getting carried away

To be honest, I didn't care about the HNQ drama, nor that tweet.

I'm always in favor of civil discourse no matter if it's persistent or volatile

@Somewhat I don't think anyone particularly did

same... but I did care about the fallout from it

^

@KevinB heh, I'm a sneaky one and I kinda went "Ok, good, lets use this to push to make things better"

I didn't care about that either. Surprising?

@Somewhat not really

r17 was a mess for weeks

@JourneymanGeek Good intention but the timing makes said intentions easy to misinterpret

So one big positive is that folks realise the depth of unhappiness this is causing

on the other hand there's probably going to be a point where we do need to move on from the specific incidents to helping create better outcomes when it happens again

Ideally, create better environments without having to be prompted by conflicts

well - sometimes you totally need to heat and beat to make a useful tool ;)

"1736 people have died this year waiting for a bus. Maybe we should really up the interval to twice daily."

"5212600 are dying because the earth rotates too fast."

so here, the big issues for me are communication, the lack of a coherent stratergy on what to do when there's issues on social media...

and well, most of the folks involved specifically have actually talked to the community and folks in question. I'm hoping there's internal debates on the latter

and I might bring it up when, well I have time to write something awesome

@Feeds SimEarth...

If tweets start popping up about the great injustice of no flag retraction option in the API... it's definitely not me ;)

lol

Well, at least there would have to be something done about it finally

@Undo I'll sign up and get a twitter account just to retweet this

My Tavern visits seem to have a pattern lately. Every time I join, I seem to get in at the tail-end of some outrage or drama I've missed. Then again, that seems to be a global thing these days. Everyone is permanently outraged about something, which in turn sees others outraged about the outrage. It's tiring.

@Bart I don't like Bart. Bart's timing is always better than mine.

^ pin that ;)

No not again. Please. The previous embarrassment isn't even gone yet XD

You reap what you sow :p

But I am now going to keep those remarks coming, until I'm told to stop. deal?

Just rename it "Tavern on the I don't like Bart" and get it over with

I'm wondering how long it'll take to get 'I don't like Bart' onto the many memes of meta post?

It took an Infinity to get Bart on there.

@JohnDvorak it is not about that specific subject. Anything related to relationships and sexuality (which is valid and common on IPS) would be shocking to those not familiar with SE as network of diverse sites.

adblock works quite well on things you don't wish to see.

i don't understand what the problem is

I'm just trying to understand the current situation

not push to ban more sites

(always wanted to use that too)

@JohnDvorak The current situation has only one site out of the HNQ for content reasons - IPS. That's it.

stroopwaffels

TBH. I actually enjoy reading about other cultures and Faiths

If you see something objectionable, why not bring it up?

@Magisch Heh... that makes me think more of nasty toddlers running around with sticky messy mouths than food :P

I've occasionally come across hate speech in comments on Hinduism and mods were super helpful in dealing with it

moreover their (past) meta...

Happy Hour is coming!

Happy!

I don't think I get any happy this week.

:(

It is only work, cheer up ...

@Catija There's still tomorrow... and you could count Sunday too, if you like ;)

lol

The monty python always look on the bright side of life seems grimly appropriate

I love that song.

;)

try this version

I like the universe song, too.

@rene ha, that's excellent

@JourneymanGeek So, always look on the bright side of death. A-just before you draw your terminal breath. Life's a piece of shit, when you look at it. Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true. You'll see it's all a show, keep 'em laughing as you go, just remember that the last laugh is on you While being crucified... sure? :P

And they say Dutch people have a crude sense of humour

Undo's minirant of the day: University Parking Mafia.

Seriously, I pay you how much a year and you can't figure out this one issue?

bonus points when you paid for parking but get towed anyways

Turns out that's the one department where talking to the guy in charge doesn't work.

@Tinkeringbell precisely

@Magisch If they ever try to pull that one there'll be hell to pay

@Undo friend of mine had a valid parking pass that was displayed, got towed and fined anyways, despite him showing his parking pass and having proof it was out he had to pay the fine and tow company, except his car got stolen from the towing lot

@JourneymanGeek Well... I knew the 'always look on the bright side of life' part of the song... I didn't know that was where I was going to end up when googling it. Nor that the lyrics had such a part as well. I had to check thrice to make sure I even got the right search executed, and not landed on some parody.

but despite that he still got a bill from the towing company :p

@Magisch See, in the US a lawyer would have a heyday with that

Ah well. We can do improper Dutch lyrics another time, once Undo is done ranting.

he had to get a lawyer to make the university pay for the incident

@Tinkeringbell that's why I mentioned the MP version specifically

You (1) towed my car illegally, (2) didn't secure my stolen property right and now I'm even more deprived of it, (3) probably did something else wrong that a good lawyer would find

(done ranting now)

Back in my days we either walked or ride a bike to school. Or used public transport. Also college was in the middle of Amsterdam. You can't afford parking there.

depends which uni you go to here, but most students commute via bus and train

cause uni parking is always bad

i started driving to school once i had a job

@rene They're starting to roll out those electric scooters in my city. That'll be interesting

I tend to think people will be idiots and they'll get taken away

Source: tried one out and was idiot

Couldn't decide what set of laws I was supposed to follow