Oh, it may have been Workplace I was thinking of.

Wait a sec...

Sonic?

Yes

My sympathies for that question have sublimated.

@JohnDvorak What happened to "judge the content not the user"?

@JohnDvorak erm. Ya. It's Sonic

More like "it explains why everyone hates it" and less of "therefore it must apriori be bad". Subtle, I know, but I hope it's legit.

@thesecretmaster we're only human. Also only counts if you vote

If it's not a valid stance, do tell

@PaulWhite On the contrary. It's one of the best things that could have happened for the site.

I still haven't (nor I want to) read his IPS question...

but considering the history on this room, well...

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted website in answer (177): How to rotate source video in Movie Clip Editor - Blender 2.68 by Tonya Rabish on blender.SE

I'm willing to accept that IPS removal from HNQ was a good thing.

per se

hence "per se"

@JohnDvorak I have argued for it in the past

as one of the top users of iPS by reputation

I wonder if I have enough of an opinion right now to answer that meta post

I wanted to do it with a community consensus and after debate though...

Maybe someone would have come up with a better idea

I'll leave the honor to you then

@PaulWhite and fundamentally - the thing I'd like existing and fixed is not what happened but how it happened and how it will happen in future

(and once again, why I want to wait)

that, and night shifts suck for writing long form, carefully worded complaints ;p

@JohnDvorak I already answered the MSE post

or rock for it

you're free to peruse my barely hinged rant

my $.02 worth repeating: SE staff should give fewer ducks about what Twitter thinks of them.

@PaulWhite ehhhh

Its a bit of a mess

It has been a while

@PaulWhite The staff is willing to discuss the topic with its community. And that's nice.

@PaulWhite ah, that's a seperate rant I don't know where/how to make.

But I really feel that SE needs to look back and how they managed the community in the past, and figure out they really need resources there.

So... anarchy now?

@JohnDvorak wrt twitter... a vast majority of the traffic that SE sees is from Google, or external sites, as in third party. So, in some ways, twitter represents the opinions of that third party traffic. Should one tweet represent all of that traffic? Clearly no. However, twitter is at least somewhat relevant as a result.

Is the TL transcript something I as a mere mortal can get "excited" about too? :P

@JohnDvorak no

We can't share what's there and most of it is boring ;)

@JourneymanGeek I miss the one meta to rule them all to be honest.

@TravisJ ooh.

This will never happen

lol

@PaulWhite And it would really be appreciated if the staff did their effort to alleviate that fear.

Well, I for one want it back, and have since before it even split.

@PaulWhite I'm a bit scared now. I've never heard about TL being unruly

but the CM team is far too small and top heavy (I mean they need more people as opposed to dropping managers) to deal with what we have effectively. They're stretched thin.

I kinda feel like the CMs have less internal power than we think they do.

Let's go further: remove all per-site metas and tell site-local stuff by tags.

^

Now, I totally have expressed interest in the job in the past and future so I don't want to say that on MSE or anything

Here here John

@JohnDvorak @TravisJ I disagree

@JohnDvorak Honest question, what would you do in that scenario?

I'm imagining adam is getting badgered from all sites right now

as a mod, we actually manage to deal with a lot of internal stuff on our own meta

It's easy to fall into the "screw these guys anyways" type of thining then

and I'm literally the guy who acts as a bridge between main meta and the core userbase of the site

It's good to be aware just how overworked the SE PR dept is.

After Hanlon, now Adam? Who's next...

SE staff are people. They're in the crossfire of being attacked on twitter for not reigning in their userbase and site quick enough and being attacked here for listening to twitter too much

@JohnDvorak I don't think there's a PR department

@JourneymanGeek That wouldn't be your burden to bear if there was one meta to rule them all. There would be a team.

@TravisJ It would impact my efficiency as a mod

Most of the stuff Tim post and adam and cat hear these days are probably a) insults b) complaints c) complaints laced with insults and d) general disagreements

Don't forget in theory, and in practice we run 99% independantly

It wears on you and quickly

yup, and a good point

@Magisch so... here's one big thing I have

@JourneymanGeek Expand please.

So, yeah, we miss Shog9.(period)

Yeah

@TravisJ I think monica calls CMs "super mods"

I miss Shog. I still see most of his meta posts though.

I miss shog because he's good at making me feel like at least someone somewhere cares

Blame mr. Hedgehog for that.

On SU we essentially are a miconism of that - mods help manage the community either visibly or invisibly and there's a great working relationship between the community and us

@Magisch I'd roll back the change, apologize, start some meta discussions, and have a look at why the change happened and internal policies wrt twitter. A good apology comes w/ concete action.

@thesecretmaster +1

in other words I agree

But I don't in theory need to see other site issues

Even if it's just a formality, it should be done

I dont care if the end result is the same, process is important

In practice I do, but that's a bit of a thing that happened accidentally ;)

@Magisch Have an upvote :)

I love how IPS was kept in the dark about the whole thing until one of them noticed "hey, why isn't this question in the HNQ, In fact, why are none of them?"

Well, I gotta run, but that y'all for the discussion.

@JohnDvorak That's my fault too...

how?

@JourneymanGeek You don't need to act on other site issues, but lets be honest; other site issues are barely even relevant 99% of the time because of how low traffic most other exchange metas are.

@TravisJ but it also means their mods can see the stuff they need to

we do have special notifications for meta

Perhaps it should work like Channels in reverse?

@JohnDvorak I saw the message in the mod room and didn't immediate realize how messy things would be when not communicating right away... so I made a wrong choice.

It also means that other users can help the community there grow. I mean, Super User is a big site. How long would it take Super User's Meta to get to 100k questions?

@TravisJ but a lot of the questions would be irrelevant elsewhere

and some of the practices we do are odd

like tag cleanup weekends?

That is, the MSE homepage lists stuff on MSE, and site meta homepages would list stuff on that meta + a view of MSE?

or someone's site-specific suspension

(oh hey, we love drama!)

@Somewhat oh maaaaaan

@Somewhat Please do

ya, I "love" those

Honestly, coming from a site that sees 10,000 questions per day (or twice that of the entire history of Super User's meta), I just don't think that with the combined metas generating a lot of content a single "tag cleanup weekends" post would really put a dent in anything or cause problems.

@TravisJ but its irrelevant to anyone else

Except when it isn't.

@TravisJ you can do this for the last 100 meta post network-wide

and I'm not sure how it fixes stuff for anyone else

So is this:

> I am trying to implement GMM Clustering for both 24 Dimension feature vector and 32 dimension feature vector, where assignment of initial parameters are done by Kmeans algorightm (K mean clustering is providing cluster centers - MU - only).

And yet, it is on SO and not in the way.

outside making it easier for the CM team to find the 1% of posts they need.

I really think CM communication is undervalued atm

@Somewhat That's cool

they ought to get a lot more time for just talking to people

@Magisch back when the network was smaller, there was a lot more of it

^^

and even CMs dedicated to specific sets of sites

That's what @Juan's team is focusing on now, no?

@Mithrandir ya, but its 2 people. Maybe one more.

@Somewhat But the reason I want one meta is because it helps bring the community together, and that is just a tool to see how truly separated everything is.

non-English SE sites meta...

doesn'T help we dont have a CM in the europe timezone either

I mean, Cat's a champ and she's running around more than she did on my last job (and I ran around a lot)

@Magisch you do

Jnat's in europe

ok, starting to catch up with the new dramma

Jnat rarely comments on anything though, he has other tasks

Jn...who?

Jnohn Dvorak

@Magisch technically as co-gro, he and animuson are the pointy end of the complaints department

@Derpy Make your life easy? Don't :P

@Derpy new drama? What did I miss ...

He's UK based IIRC

the only time I ever see jnat do stuff is when responding to spammer cleanups here

@Derpy I'd catch up with the new drummer instead

meaning he has non public tasks

Ah, so not Europe soon then @JourneymanGeek :p

@Magisch I think they all do

(I was jesting; I'd seen that guy already, just not recently)

@Bart same timezone

@Tinkeringbell no, why.... I am always happy to see that the power of Twitter is always a thing.....

yeah @Mag, I believe that you personally created a whole lot of work for him... :P

he's more active on Anime.SE and its chat room image board

Not after we drag them further into the ocean as part of Brexit @JourneymanGeek

it's so beautiful

@JourneymanGeek technically not even that

snort

@JohnDvorak close enough!

Apologies for sweary typo-ridden rant last night. Was drunk in the tavern. If sober, would've made the same argument with less swearing and fewer typos.

> Was drunk in the tavern.

@MarkAmery for shame. WHY DO WE HAVE SPELLCHECK!

No drinking in the Tavern!!

quaffs water

eat soup

hits the Quaffle

@Mithrandir I stopped with that like 6 months ago

TIL quaff

@TravisJ you should play Nethack at some point

@TravisJ blame pterry prachett.

hah^

@JohnDvorak Nethack looks really interesting.

@JourneymanGeek this is not the case any more

I'm not in support land any more

@JNat ... ah...

(and I read backlogs.... sometimes :P )

Whoat.

@JourneymanGeek You said pterry prachett... but it was terry prachett ( I think ), so the joke was that terodactyl is actually pterodactyl ..... And that's the joke.

@JNat ;p

@TravisJ that's a discworld fan joke

@TravisJ I don't get this. There are plenty of ideological reasons someone might specifically want to help at a girls' school; a man choosing to do so shouldn't be a reason to suspect he's a "predator"!

@JNat so its just Animuson in support land?

er

Anim-who? :P

@JohnDvorak pardon the misping.

@MarkAmery My brother is doing his national service at a girls' school

@MarkAmery blame today's anime/manga/<insert other media>

@TravisJ It is - but also has an impossibly steep learning curve. To really understand the depth and have a chance of winning, you'll probably need to read spoilers.

@Mithrandir waaaaittt. Y'all got non military NS?

No, we've consolidated an actual support team a while back, instead of having some folks from Community handling Q&A support, and other small support teams for each product elsewhere. So now we have an actual cross-functional support team

@JourneymanGeek if you can get an exemption from the army, yes

I've moved out of that, though, and Grace Note, for instance, moved in

@JNat ah. ._. That's good I guess

ahhh

That aside, all the other folks that used to support Teams, Jobs, etc., are a part of the Support team too

@JNat hm. I guess that sort of semi solves one complaint I had, maybe.

@JNat so what's your bread these days?

and my main focus is to manage the Community Team's backlog of tasks these days. That, and to find broken/dysfunctional processes we operate under, and try to improve and document 'em

Breadman.

@MarkAmery It's true, that fact alone wouldn't. However, given the broader context of the described situation, the insinuation of sexual advance when it was either small talk or being polite, the situational observation of trying to be friends on a personal level instead of a professional level, and the immediate dismissal of reciprocation... it becomes very questionable.

@JNat switching to Speed Gear may help.

(ok, this one was lame)

baking pop-corn

you still need popcorns?

Worse, how do you bake them?

I like popcorn made on the stove top

@JohnDvorak presumably if the temprature is high enough....

maybe a dutch oven, preheated?

heh

I bet popcorn pops at like 280

which grade?

Not Kelvin for sure

I suppose F. 280C is hotter than a lot of ovens?

Yeah, F

Hm, 356 F, was off

180c

Other news.... When's the next part of the anniversary contests? The cheese thing is 10 days old today, we were promised something every 7-10 days! :D

Pretty sure the next contest is just going to be downvoted out of spite

Not until Cheese-based HNQ...

@Magisch so yeah, anyway: you have me, for sure :)

@Magisch :(

@Somewhat Go upvote SA's questions on cheese then :P

@JNat I'm not going to pester you with the current drama because I'm 99% sure if you were authorized to say anything, you would've already, so - how's weather where you're at?

Has the serial voting workload gone back to normal levels?

@Magisch like I mentioned, I haven't been handling support for a while now, so I don't have a good notion of how the current backlog is looking these days ;)

and the weather is sunny, and surprisingly clear today

and if "current drama" refers to the HNQ/IPS thing... we could've handled things better, yes

to add to the bit about the serial downvoting, etc.: with GDPR and the consolidation of the support team, we've also restricted access to tickets to pretty much people in the support team

so it's not easy for me or Shog to have a look at current backlog sizes, etc.

ah

ow

I guess that's good in the sense of less on your plate tho?

we need animuson to assign stuff to us before we can see it

@JourneymanGeek kinda yeah. Not so ideal if we just need to make sure the ticket a user is referring to was really submitted or not, though

ya

Hence the initial ow

but, anyway, animuson's working on a bit of a workaround to that

could be worse XD

I would think numbers and backlogs wouldn't necessarily fall under GDPR, just the content of those tickets? Also, isn't part of GDPR that I can ask you all for whatever info you have on me? :P

We assign tickets to external vendors with their own ticketing system. In theory over email. In practice whatsapp works better.

and part of my job is following up on tickets the third party vendors never followed up on

@Tinkeringbell numbers and backlogs don't matter, no. But tickets have a lot more info, and I believe the idea is to minimize exposure of that info. And yes, you can ask for all of whatever info we have on you, but not everyone in the company should have access to that info

@JNat isn't there already mechanisms for a lot of it, just that its a massive pile of JSON? ;p

@JNat Yeah, I got confused on the 'I can't see the backlog part'... I'm not the sharpest tool today.

@JourneymanGeek sorry, what's the "it" you're referring to here? :P

dumping all the data we have about someone?

yup

this, you mean?

I don't think so. Was some automatic thing. badly designed.

Unless I'm getting myself confused

mm, not ringing any bells

@JourneymanGeek personalized predictions?

^^^^^ THAT THING

lol

@JNat I suppose someone else is assigned to putting out that trash fire :p

@Magisch indeed

@Magisch I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few people

we have had 2 comments so far

cause I don't really remember the community ever getting this worked up

and one answer

ya think

I can't remember ever being this angry and disappointed at SE either

@Magisch tbh, this is probably more..

emotive? than the new COC

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (87): Safari cannot open the page because the server stopped responding by jimsmith1496 on serverfault.com

@JourneymanGeek MIT License?

@Somewhat MIT licence was more of a SO thing

@Magisch There's two answers on IPS meta, and 1 comment... Where did you get your numbers?

The hate is real atm

@Tinkeringbell The first answer didn't come today

@Magisch more anger

it's also just a pointer to the MSE discussion

well, can be seen on the last page of voted questions... MIT, CoC, Left Nav

and well ya, I get, and that's why I want to wait.

@Magisch Oh, oke.

real and justified

(well that and pesky lack of sleep)

I admit I never heard (not even through the grapevine) that people in TL got angry

@Magisch Well, we don't talk about what happens in the TL outside

which has me a bit concerned, cause if the moderators decide they're fed up with things, this entire network comes down like a house of cards

@Magisch that's actually a thing

@JourneymanGeek first rule of fight club

folks are so invested in their communities that its hard for them to do that.

so if it happens

its an extreme case of.. someone messing up badly enough they might need to be fired.

do you think this might rise to that? I don't think so (yet)

And actual malicious behaviour

No

SO here's the thing

@Magisch I'm mad... does that information help?

I think deep down inside, we realise that folks are trying their best. The frustration is with the processes and some other things rather than specific folks

@Tinkeringbell I know you are

It's that mods tend to show a semi-unified front most of the times which doesn't endear them to angry users most of the time

(I'm always mad btw... at something :P)

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Url in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, bad pattern in url body, blacklisted website in body, +6 more (884): ketodiettrial.com/teal-farms-keto/ by Helenlabrie on gaming.SE

@Magisch lemme put it this way

we put hours into these sites - for little more than 2 T shirts you get once ;)

@JourneymanGeek You got 2 pyjama's? I didn't even get those XD

@Tinkeringbell oh, elected mods XD

you get a site T shirt (if available) and a SE one

also unless you're a midget XL's probably not big enough to be pyjamas so when the time comes... XD

@JourneymanGeek XL makes perfect pyjama's. I already have a winterbash one ;)

Anyway, you were talking to Magisch ;)

or apparently I'm big XD

@Magisch more or less though, if you see a mod active on the site, they're passionate and will totally be talking to, or trying to talk to the CM team behind the scenes if there's a problem. Even if its mostly through the helpdesk system these days.

I know diamonds are pointy and all, and it probably would be a bad idea for a mod to be too publicly critical of the company

@Magisch eh. If someone's doing it the right way, and gets kicked out as a mod, bad things would likely happen

And a lot of mods are very critical of some steps the company takes

all in private though

@Magisch To be honest? Not really. I've talked more about this in public than behind the screens.

well there's nothing stopping us from doing so on meta

I likely wouldn't be a good mod, I don't believe in the criticise in private, praise in public thing. I think the broader community should see all the conversation that's going on

@Magisch that's not a thing

and tbh, we totally try to do as much as possible in public unless it involves someone's privacy

@JourneymanGeek just TL is convenient so a lot of stuff just ends up there

@Mithrandir ya. and we know people are there

but a lot of TL talk is... a lot like here, general trivial socialisation

actually, think a livelier version of the RO room XD

@Mithrandir The last time charcoal was in the crossfire you'd be forgiven for not even knowing without prying information out of the cold, dead hands of the TL

@Magisch if action needs to be taken, the decision making process needs to be in the open

but ya, we've always run TL with fight club rules, even if its more of a book club ;)

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, potentially bad keyword in body (98): How to Fix a Bricked iPhone? by jimsmith1496 on serverfault.com

@Magisch funny thing is I think shog pointed the charcoal team at me, and I popped over to your room to critique/FR stuff...

@Magisch That... looks like a bit of an overstatement to me. I was in Charcoal at those times too... and I could perfectly fine keep up with what was happening.

the decision to disable SD on one site was made before anything was talked about in charcoal hq at that time

@Magisch and don't forget ideally we want to have everything in the open and accountable cause its actually less work, suspensions aside

@Magisch did the site mods request it?

I get where y'all are coming from

@JourneymanGeek one, yeah. After they got into an altercation with people in CHQ prior

@Magisch well, in that situation - wouldn't the preferences of the site mods, as representitives of the site be more important than an admittedly well meaning third party project?

So this might not have even involved TL

I would say no. There's a lot of site mods that frankly have no experience or very little experience with fighting spam because they're not regularly exposed to it.

The conclusion was that we'd like to see meta consensus before we act on desires of site mods

and I personally a lot more moderation goes on (for SU) on meta, RA and our "ask a superuser mod room"

@Magisch see, you're dismissing the site mods, and the sites.

If they get overwhelmed by spam, and need help, they can ask again

@JourneymanGeek I mean, yeah, a little bit. I wouldn't ask you to pass judgement on a matter involving which version of haskell to use for a project either.

@Magisch Educating people goes a lot easier if they're not mad anymore. Turning SD off on that site for a while should've been seen as a gesture of goodwill and a chance to talk stuff out, work out a way to deal with those situations (IMO)

Nor would you ask me to decide hardware configurations on stuff

@Magisch if it was something on SU, and I'm not a subject matter expert, and I need one... I can ask

and well, there's often situations where a mod or CM might look over a decision, overrule it and... end up right or wrong

charcoal is a special case

@Magisch see - that precise attitude is what might have annoyed said mods.

essentially I think that charcoal should have more of a say over spamfighting efforts then any individual site mod. It's like the place on SE to go for spamfighting know how

and folks may have different ways to deal with things.

@Magisch well, that also means handing over a lot of trust to a bunch of folks who arn't elected, and have a massive amount of control over what content gets through.

what's the check on that?

the fact that charcoal is like 80%+ elected mods itself

lots of transparency

and also 100% transparent

@Magisch .... That's like saying SE should have more of a say over what ends up in HNQ, as that's theirs ... If charcoal wants that say, it should be diplomatic about it.

Transparency is indeed a big part of that.

@Magisch in a sense, I don't think charcoal gets a blank check

Has Smoke Detector been endorsed by SE's staffs?

@Tinkeringbell Yeah, I'm not knocking what Art did in that scenario, and I think we should always take mods and their concerns seriously

and users and their concerns, really

they work with folks, but they don't really get free rein just cause they're doing good

but handing single-veto power to site mods would be a can of worms imo

@Magisch so, the right way to deal with that is... diplomacy

why is the mod unhappy? what changes might work, and what would get the mod accept the help from charcoal

Like how MO doesn't want HNQ on their site

Trust me, diplomacy was our first attempt

@Magisch I haven't been in there much after that (as I became too busy). But wasn't the end of it, like John just said, that they'd like to see meta consensus now first?

@Somewhat a few have said "we like this, but we're not officially endorsing"

We got featured network wide a couple times

I found I ended up getting a lot of stuff I wanted simply cause I really was like "guys, I like you but I need more visibility"

smokey casting flags, and my rogue gallery RSS feed for example

so y'all earned some goodwill off me

but that was earned, not given

thats because you do arguments first, demands second

which ironically makes your arguments more persuasive then other's demands

@Magisch well there's that but I'm really good at getting what I want XD

(sometimes even without realising. Apparently I get VIP treatment at the pass office now 0_0)

By saying what I need and why, I have an easier time winning over folks.

So in situations like this, one of the big weaknesses smokey has is, well

"trust us, we're good guys"

You gotta think of it almost like you're selling it

We are though

these are the benefit. What's your fears? We can do these things.

Been done

we had 3 meta posts about that

idk if I should say we I'm not really in charcoal anymore

;)

And I primarily speak for me

though I guess I'm that funny tough customer who actually likes what you do, so I give you a bit of guff ;p