Tavern on the Meta

Catija

01:06

@Shog9 How do you get their address?

Shog9

&editor

Journeyman Geek

Morning

Catija

Howdy.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Still sleepy...

Journeyman Geek

That was nice

I closed a post by a new user. A few hours later someone pings me and 1. The post is completely fixed up. 2. Has 4 reopen votes.

Catija

01:14

That's good, right?

Did you reopen it?

Journeyman Geek

@Catija threw in the last reopen vote

now I need to find it and nuke the comments, lol

user310756

02:25

@ShadowWizard read my answer. It says all that anyone needs to know meta.stackexchange.com/a/312438/310756

user310756

@Shog9 hahahaha that was actually funny and not pointed *

Shog9

here I was starting to think it was gonna throw an exception

user310756

you try too hard

Catija

Probably helps if you better know your audience and whether they'll be able to grok your jokes.

user310756

@Catija techopedia.com/definition/25580/address-of-operator--c

Journeyman Geek

02:28

@ShadowWizard in her shoes, I have been less nice, and left the bounty in place

Catija

Ah... see... I had no way to even google that.

user310756

@Catija yep that's why I'm helping you learn programming

user310756

A pointer uses the *

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb boo. I got that ;p

Catija

YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!!! (At least not C++) I'm planning to start with SQL for SEDE and go from there.

Journeyman Geek

02:29

@Catija oh its also used in C

user310756

you would have heard of exceptions, try catch, throw, then, if, else, ifelse, switch @Catija

Journeyman Geek

the concept of a pointers, I don't grok tho

user310756

@Catija nice, you'll have no trouble and I suspect you'll enjoy it

user310756

@JourneymanGeek what else could I say?

Journeyman Geek

(sadly my first experience with programming is terrible)

Catija

02:30

Andy's started me on Python, so I'm not completely out of the loop :D

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb its the programming equivilent of a ~~dad~~ senior person joke ;p

user310756

@JourneymanGeek don't make me turn you into a npe (death threats programmer style :D )

Catija

@YvetteColomb I took the Code Academy basic SQL course but if I compare what it teaches to what I've seen in some of the fancy queries I've seen people pull together, it's going to take a lot of work to get from one to the other.

user310756

omg I actually laughed out loud at my own joke

Catija

Um...

user310756

02:33

@Catija don't worry, there's different ways of writing the same thing. So just stick with the way you've learned for now, as that will work and slowly you'll be able to see how the other writing styles achieve the same thing

Catija

... I haven't... hadn't actually made it "public".

user310756

@Shog9 yr such a dag

user310756

@Catija Arrrrrgggghhhhhhhh flagged it so so so so sorry

Journeyman Geek

lol

user310756

it's not funny, I have foot in mouth disease, it's a serious affliction :p

Magisch

04:49

@Catija If you break all of that down, most of the "fancy" stuff is writing style, not functionality

Journeyman Geek

Someone told me all programming is just stringing stuff together ;p

Somewhat Memorable Name

until PPCG came

Magisch

PPCG is ... something else

rene

@Catija tempting to edit the title case because I hate it ...

rene

05:40

@Catija just ask if you need something. Plenty of people around that are willing to lend a hand.

Remember that T-SQL evolved as well, so you're not alone in having to learn extra stuff or find new ways. For example the JSON parsing didn't exist in earlier T-SQL. Makes that I should revisit most of my "close voters" queries.

→ 8 messages moved to Chimney

SmokeDetector

06:14

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad pattern in url body, blacklisted website in body, body starts with title and ends in url, link at end of body, +3 more: This complement is to be had for buy by hmid nally on workplace.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in body: cnnlivewatch englandvscroatia fifaworldcup by kiovsrc on dba.SE

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@rene Looks like there are careless close votes on this question. It was posted by a user now known to be a troll. There are four Close reviews on the question, corresponding to the four close votes, so the first person to propose closing must have cast an RC flag.

I suspect that the same user cast the flag, because they made an off-site post mocking site members, and they may be trying to generate "evidence".

(To other users: info about this troll is kept hidden for a reason. rene knows what I'm talking about.)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, blacklisted user: I cant install bitdefender antivirus by applesupport on askubuntu.com

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SmokeDetector k

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

06:29

@rene Not suggesting you should do this, but if I had a Chaos Emerald, I'd take matters into my own hands knowing that it's midnight throughout the U.S. (and thus hours at a minimum until a mod comes by) and use Chaos Control to clear the close votes.

rene

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog hmm, I didn't consider my vote to be careless. The answer seemed to confirm it was a no repro and I trust Nicael to be right ....

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog can't do that anymore

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog erm... it it crucial it gets fixed right now?

Patience learn you must.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek It's possible that the troll makes some other off-site post in the hours between it getting handled by a mod and the "evidence" getting created. The "evidence" exists for long enough for that to potentially happen.

Journeyman Geek

In which case, it makes more sense to deal with the totality of the problem, rather than firefighting

and it its a troll, what's the point of clearing the closevotes?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek If an unknowing person comes across the question and casts a close vote. (Thankfully my "Leave Open" review removed the post from the queue.)

Journeyman Geek

06:38

it gets closed

then what?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

In cases like these where I think the votes were careless, my normal course of action is to strategically expedite reopening by casting the final close vote and then immediately cast a reopen vote.

Journeyman Geek

I mean, a troll's question gets closed. Then what?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek The question author has been involved in very specific trolling (contact rene in a private room on SE chat if you want to know). In particular, one of the things they did was make an off-site post criticizing site members. It's quite possible that the user will use their closed question as "evidence" that the community just closes questions without reason.

And then make the post before the SE office opens at 9am tomorrow in the U.S.

Journeyman Geek

You're... kinda telegraphing his moves a little too much

and overthinking it

Haters gonna hate

if we're constantly reacting to them... well

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Jun 28 at 23:21, by Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You're the one who always comes up with edge cases... what about a user with a high rep account and a sock... sock is destroyed... high rep account can see who destroyed their account because they have links to the deleted posts.

@JourneymanGeek The four close votes correspond to four close reviews. Which means that the thing adding it to review was an RC flag.

Journeyman Geek

06:43

eh

I don't mean the mechanics

more the "eh, if someone is looking for a reason to complain, they will find it anyway"

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

(Use your RO powers to view the deleted message)

rene

don't worry, they are going to do that again

Journeyman Geek

sounds like mostly appropriate action has been taken

but here's the thing

rene

sooner or later

Journeyman Geek

trolls love attention

You're giving them attention

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

06:45

It's entirely possible also that the user used Developer Tools to modify the page and generate a falsified screenshot.

Journeyman Geek

No point in feeding them

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

This troll is probably unaware of this attention

I'd flag for a mod if SE didn't take over a month (or over a year in @Shadow's case) to handle flags.

Somewhat Memorable Name

07:02

Well, that user had posted on 3 different meta sites recently.

Tinkeringbell

07:42

@MarkAmery Thanks!

Derpy

07:59

morning.

Magisch

morning derpy

any mail?

Derpy

just wondering, @Tinkeringbell. Your question on IPS. Did you intend to discuss about answers that suggest using violence or answers that suggest threatening violence?

rene

@Magisch yes. Are we supposed to share that here?

Derpy

@Magisch about the thing on IPS? Do I need to say it? No feedback whatsoever. I am still glad at least animuson noticed that post (because... they can tell me that is just a fortunate coincidence but.... animuson acted just after I sent that mail)

rene

oh

I'm great in responding to out-of-context stuff

Magisch

08:03

@Derpy I was making a joke

Since derpy is the mailwoman in the mlp universe

rene

No fun allowed here

Journeyman Geek

hm

@Derpy did you really need to call out @Tinkeringbell on that here? :(

Magisch

if the flower says so

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek did you really understood what the mail was about?

Journeyman Geek

@Derpy I don't really need to - more that that probably should be handled in IPS/IPS meta

I'd guess its the feeding dogs question

Magisch

08:08

@rene apparently your edit to my meta post was more substantial then you thought...

rene

I guess so

I never going to add the again, to any post

Magisch

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, 20 hours ago, by Magisch

grumbles grammar editing flowers

Third time's the charm

rene

:D

@Magisch are you going to respond to them?

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek then, I will just suggest that if you are really interested, you should search for the context of that mail since I too don't feel like I need to reply if you just want to assume that the mail was to "call out" Tinkeringbell. Sorry, but I will just drop the discussion here, I don't want to argue on things taken out of their context.

Magisch

Not sure. there's a linked duplicate on that Q too

rene

08:12

otherwise we might post the same type of comment shortly after each other

Magisch

go for it if you want to

rene

@Magisch OK, I will, keep an eye on it in case you have something to add so I can edit in the grace period

@Magisch and posted ...

there are no characters left there

so I can only ditch words, anything extra needs a new comment

Magisch

sounds good

rene

I'm missing the basics of the discussion

I'm done already

Magisch

you should photosynthesize them

I'm nearly done too

I wrote an answer and there's a linked duplicate with even more explaination

Journeyman Geek

08:28

o0

Magisch

confused journeyman is confused

Somewhat Memorable Name

sometimes we need cats

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName Are those yours? Or random internet cats? :P

Somewhat Memorable Name

I can't have pets at my current place :/

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName Time to move :)

Magisch

08:33

time to get multiple yorkies

And then take over SE using their cuteness

Tinkeringbell

I'm probably getting a fish tank once I've moved out :)

rene

@Magisch any thoughts on that IPS post on MSE? I don't fancy to be a proxy for flagging nor do I think I want more of that type of posts?

Magisch

I voted to close it

And told OP to use contact us if it bothers them that much. I'm not gonna start a meta war on behalf of a non user and I'm not gonna argue for a position I don't agree with

Tinkeringbell

@rene Close it, they can always raise it on IPS meta

rene

@Tinkeringbell they don't want to create an account

Tinkeringbell

08:46

@rene Then what Magisch said, they can use contact us.

rene

Fair enough, it is closed now anyway

Tinkeringbell

I'm ... not too happy with the answer, but I sure don't agree with the meta post either.

Somewhat Memorable Name

migrate to Meta IPS, OP doesn't need to create an account (random bad idea)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Bluetooth module HC-05 giving ERROR :(0) by Juan Giraldo on robotics.SE

rene

@Tinkeringbell yeah, if anthing let's not move the IPS discussions that can't be solved on their meta to MSE ;)

@SomewhatMemorableName bad idea's are awesome!

Journeyman Geek

08:49

tbh, as a mod, I really prefer that anything related to my site, well stay on the site.

Somewhat Memorable Name

What happens in Rome, stays in Rome

Journeyman Geek

(Almost. I know for a fact most of these posts get closed and nuked so...)

Somewhat Memorable Name

There are many ways to Rome

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName I was thinking Vegas... ;p

Magisch

even visiting IPS these days is kind of emotionally draining

Journeyman Geek

08:51

@Magisch I have mixed feelings on IPS still

I prefer their chat to the main site

Tinkeringbell

I'm trying to fix it :)

Journeyman Geek

(and I don't even help vampire ;p)

Somewhat Memorable Name

I have avoided IPS HNQ recently...

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell Its just a fundamentally different scope

and well

there's sometimes no right answers, or many right answers or no wrong answers except that one....

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName I'm tempted to say good call. Not many of the great questions reach HNQ on IPS

@JourneymanGeek There's still a lot of work to be done to even get to the point where we can start to make that distinction, I fear.

Magisch

08:54

I'm burnt out on that tbh

the entire back it up thing combined with the what looks like weekly drama and intensely negative outside perception make me weary to even have my name associated with that site at the moment

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch TBH, it has been relatively quiet lately, until we got that dog-feeding answer.

If you want to stop, you can. No-one will blame you :)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell its worth remembering y'all are doing social topics on an asocial platform

and at least a few folks seem to be benefiting.

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, I've gained some insights... on some of my questions.

Journeyman Geek

(I for one totally couldn't ask IPS questions lol)

Somewhat Memorable Name

TBH, IPS is an eye-opening for me to such serious IPS situations, especially on gender identity...

Journeyman Geek

08:58

For all the current drama and storytelling that goes on ;)

Tinkeringbell

I could tell a lot more stories... :P But I usually just ask advice in chat nowadays ;)

rene

we're listening...

Tinkeringbell

You really don't want to know, trust me :P

rene

But I love horror stories ....

Derpy

every site will have it share of dramma as soon as someone notice some of the "funny" content others didn't want to discuss.
See Medical advice for all the rants about "if you are ill, see a doctor and don't ask on a forum", LifeHacks for the rants about very dangerous suggestion (watch a solar eclipse using the magnetic disk from an old floppy as a filter? Cyanide as a herbicide? and so on), the image board effect on Anime chatrroom, various rants on religious-related, sites etc etc etc

Tinkeringbell

09:02

There's a reason I don't put stuff like 'How to give off a 'do-not-disturb' vibe while on public transport' on IPS :P

Somewhat Memorable Name

or... 'How to make people disappear from the world'...

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName I did that, but posted it on Worldbuilding :P

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell don't bigass headphones work? ;p

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek I wish...

Crossed arms, crossed ankles, blank face, no eye-contact, headphones..

Face in a book or phone

Somewhat Memorable Name

@JourneymanGeek but if you accidentally smile to someone, then that person might want to get close to you...

especially in a coffee shop

Tinkeringbell

09:06

and still people feel entitle to ask 'what are you reading'... the standard reply right now is a very irritated 'A GODDAMN ROLE OF TOILET PAPER' which seems to deter them.. for a little while.

Apparently after 5 minutes or so they think I'm a funny person, and start asking another question..

Somewhat Memorable Name

Now I don't know if it's a curse or blessing that I usually got ignored in a public place...

Tinkeringbell

I really don't want to moderate all the comments/answers from people saying 'oh, just don't go out in public if you don't want to interact, going out in public means you're baiting yourself for interactions'.

Journeyman Geek

0_0

@Tinkeringbell my mental image of you is slightly scary now ;p

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Well.. I do get scary if people manage to rub me exactly the wrong way.

Talking to me while I'm doing my best to say 'not interested' is one of those actions.

Journeyman Geek

but ah. I don't smile

and apparently I scare anyone who's older than 14 by existing

Kids love me though

Somewhat Memorable Name

09:09

I smile widely while rejecting those on-street marketing guys

Journeyman Geek

also I ask telemarketers to call back later. THen block the number

Tinkeringbell

@SomewhatMemorableName I always put on an evil grin ... and this... but apparently it's rude

@JourneymanGeek 'Do you have a moment'? And then put the phone on the table and continue having dinner

They always, always call during dinner time

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell "no. disconnect"

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I once got someone at the door, collecting money for charity. They were looking for monthly donors, I said no. They offered the opportunity to make a one-time gift, and I took it, since I liked the charity it was for.

I had to sign papers, authorizing them to take money from my bank account. Checked the fine print, signed for a one-time transfer, you'd think it's fine

10 minutes later: phone call. 'Thank you for becoming a sponsor of 'charity'. Just calling to confirm your details'. Uhm, what? I just signed for a one-time transer, not to become a sponsor.

Guy checked, said that was true, reassured me that was just his fault, he didn't get that many 1 time transfers, and we confirmed everythign

Next month... guess what? :P

Money missing. I called, got the money back, got the transfers cancelled. But I kept receiving mail, and mail, and mail

Journeyman Geek

oooh

@Tinkeringbell see, we love that mail

Tinkeringbell

09:16

Asking if I didn't want to become a sponsor again, if I didn't want to transfer money again...

Journeyman Geek

makes scooping poop easier.

Tinkeringbell

I eventually sent 1 back, marked the envelope as 'this person has died'.

That was the only thing that stopped those letters!

@JourneymanGeek Hahaha I'll keep that in mind. But we don't have a dog and we're all potty trained ourselves XD

Martin James

@Tinkeringbell YT: youtube.com/watch?v=oYYo49R_ZS0

Somewhat Memorable Name

Oh, in here, sometimes while I was eating at fast-food (alone), some ~~scammer~~ (suspicious) people came and ask for charity donation, usually with reference to WHO or UNESCO.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell apparently that's against the paypal TOS

bbc.com/news/technology-44783779

Somewhat Memorable Name

09:19

Since I ~~like to waste their time~~ am a good listener, I let them explain. In the end I always reject them then check on the internet if those charities were real or not...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer: Adding blurb/summary metadata to an ebook file by imranchipbyte on ebooks.SE

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek does ash bring mail?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in url body: EVE-NG/GNS3 - Does memory speed matter for virtualization? (3333Mhz vs 2666Mhz) by Martin Ledermann on serverfault.com

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Oh yeah, I've read that one... Sad, but a tiny bit funny if it's not you that's affected directly ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch no ;p

Tinkeringbell

09:20

@MartinJames I've... met worse than nutters on public transport. Which is probably where the 'shut up' attitude comes from as well ;)

Journeyman Geek

ah

nice thing about my job

I get on on the first stop, in the middle of nowhere and am so tired I just sleep all the way through

Martin James

@Tinkeringbell Planes are the worst, especially goat-class and/or low-cost carriers: assigned seats and no escape for hours:(

Journeyman Geek

@MartinJames heh, depends on the length of the flight and airline.

I usually can't sleep on planes so...

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames I've only been on a plane once. And at that time, I was the screaming kid :P

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell I think I fly every year or so

most of our extended family is/was india based

Magisch

09:27

I've been on planes a couple of times, I always slept through all of it

I have the gift of sleeping anywhere

Martin James

I shove in earbuds, concentrate on my kindle and try to look totally uninteresting and boring, (yes, some might say that's easy for a software engineer:).

Magisch

"Downvoting, editing, flagging as "very low quality", or voting to close are all appropriate actions in this case. " the audit was an answer

TIL you can close answers

Journeyman Geek

Meeeeeeta?

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames That's what I try to do too, but it fails sometimes :)

Somewhat Memorable Name

Tavern on the Meat

Martin James

09:35

@Tinkeringbell Yeah, 'please let me survive the next three hours so I can get to the beachfront bar and get ratted in peace'

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames Why'd you take a plane, having to interact with people, all the hassle of packing suitcases and stuff.. just to get to a beachfront bar? What does a beachfront bar have to add over a couch bar?

Journeyman Geek

ratted?

Magisch

I dont like bars

Martin James

09:54

@JourneymanGeek Slaughtered, razzed, pissed, zonked, inebriated, intoxicated...

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames Drunk (for the less fluent people) :P

Martin James

@Tinkeringbell You can sit outside. The roar of the breakers makes conversation impossible:)

Suraj Rao

hmm.. knew only 3 of those

Journeyman Geek

You must be english.

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames My couch bar usually only has 1 person anyways, and it has TV :P

It's self-service though, that's a small minus

Martin James

10:00

@Tinkeringbell lol 'suitcases'. On my low-cost vacation flights, it's one carefully-measured and weighed backpack. Any more and I get slammed for excess baggage:)

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames Even worse. Ever tried to pack the contents of several suitcases into one backpack? :P

Martin James

@Tinkeringbell For vacations, I only need a few shorts, t-shirts, some toiletries, laptop, tablet, phone, chargers, cables, adaptors and other essentials. If I need anything else, I can buy it there.

Journeyman Geek

@MartinJames made more fun by modern liquid regulations

Nice thing with india now though is I can probably get away with shorts and dhotis, and need not pack pants.

Martin James

I guess I could do without the extra shorts and shirts, but it's a lot of washing:(

@JourneymanGeek Yeah - all those silly little plastic bottles and limits:(

Tinkeringbell

@MartinJames I believe my brothers just bought their toiletries when they arrived at their destination last spring :P

I just like to pack for five kinds of weather... bring enough stuff to do when I'm away too

Journeyman Geek

10:09

@MartinJames Alas, terrorists ruin it for all of us.

@Tinkeringbell I try to travel light, but if I travel with my mom....

er... she dosen't travel light ;p

Martin James

@JourneymanGeek I do like strong, mature cheddar for sandwiches, but it's expensive in many vacation resorts in Spain etc. Last time I went to Tenerife, I deep-froze a big block of cheese and wrapped it up in my shirts etc. to preserve it until I could get it to my apartment fridge. Sadly, on the airport X-ray, it did look a bit like a block of plastic explosive:(

Journeyman Geek

Oo

rene

10:32

Highly combustible diary products ...

Martin James

@rene They made me unwrap it. I offered to eat some of it, but the security staff just warned me and handed it back:)

rene

Warned you for what? Stomach problems if you eat it all?

Magisch

When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. Make life regret the day it gave you lemons! I'm gonna have my engineers invent a combustible lemon and burn your house down!

Somewhat Memorable Name

10:47

???: Yeah.... Yeah!... Yeah, take the lemons!... Yeah!... Oh, I like this guy... Burn his house down! Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!

SmokeDetector

11:12

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in username, blacklisted user: What is the impact of Virtual Reality on Real Estate business? by TestOrigen Software Testing Se on sqa.SE

rene

11:37

someone calling Shog9 a head CM ...

Magisch

not wrong in and of itself

he is a head, and a cm, thus head cm

Somewhat Memorable Name

12:00

Okay, now I'm really wondering if this "welcoming wagon" can work. Some users have already distrusted SE corporate for all of the recent blog posts...

Magisch

@SomewhatMemorableName s/some/a metric ton of

I believe basing classification and removal on something so subjective as them being welcoming is a complete dead end. Based on culture differences, the definitions of that are going to be entirely contradictory

Unless the goal is "welcoming for concerned people of the american middle class"

Derpy

12:19

@SomewhatMemorableName ?

in order to determine if the wagon is working you should first decide what its purpose is.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@Derpy A certain comment on this MSE post

Derpy

ok, got that. My reply still stands. What you think the purpose of this wagon is? I already found my personal (sad) answer, so I no longer see any of this as unexpected.

It is working fine for the objective I think it has.

Magisch

12:42

@Derpy What's that?

Being welcoming can't work out since it's self contradictory across cultures, in my opinion

Derpy

12:55

already said that, it is pretty negative, lame and so on, should only be consider my personal view with not implication of being true etc etc etc.

but to me "we" aren't interested at all in becoming welcoming.

We are just interested in advertise we do so in order to have something to fight back posts like April one

stop. No more, no less.

Magisch

That wouldn't be so bad if true

Derpy

there is no need at all for this to work, all the purpose is just to talk about what we are doing.

Mark Amery

@Derpy why? What reason do the staff have to care about what April Wensel thinks of us?

Magisch

I think we had guidance to not discuss invidiuals in this chat room before

lest we get another round of generally unhappy tim

Mark Amery

Your "explanation" doesn't seem like it really leaves the question explained - it just shifts us one step along in the chain of motives, to some intermediate objective that seems just as mysterious.

@Magisch I wouldn't know, I'm new in this room since a while after the start of the "welcoming" era.

Derpy

13:03

I said "like April", that is not clearly about her at all. She may have been the last droplet in the vase, she may be one of many but she is a "known example". I don't judge her in any way - even if I think it should be clear that I feel a lot of more sympathy for her claims that for those "we don't need to be welcoming, let's toss away those trash/zero-effort users" (yep, same wording was used in some comments...)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Check writing software for Linux Mint 17 by John Myres on unix.SE

Magisch

^Zero effort is actually not far off for some of the new users though

Some new users apply negative effort by spending none and draining some from people who then need to clean up the mess they left

Derpy

@MarkAmery To remove any instance of names, recently there have been a lot more claims that the site isn't very welcoming and many users are just rude. It ended up in a very popular twitter post that caused a lot of mess (and some suspensions)

Magisch

If someone copy/paste's their homework, they have done no work or effort of their own. Now in the least trouble case still 5 users need to read the post and vote to close. That means they haven't just spent no effort on their question, they have drained effort from site volunteers to reach the status quo prior to them asking.

Derpy

@MarkAmery coincidentally, soon after that post this "let's be more nice" thing started. From that point onward, many arguments have been made almost every day

The blog post and the related meta question are just one example.

Magisch

13:07

@Derpy mostly because of how confusing and subjective all of that language is

SO is primarily populated by software developers. People used to problem solving in the binary logic x implies y therefore z kind of way. Not in the "Your comments made me feel X" kind of way.

Feeds

At first, I moved from pokÃ©mon posters to regular oil paintings, but then these really grumpy and unreasonable detectives from the Louvre showed up and took them all. They wouldn't even give me back my thumbtacks!

Magisch

So they're also good at thinking a chain of logic through to its conclusion. That means a lot of people are drawing doomsday scenarios because of vagueness

Derpy

@MarkAmery To explain my original claim, what I meant is that I am not surprised at all about this. What I think is that all of this is just being made in an answer to those twitter / media posts. Basically, we are NOT attempting to solve the "we aren't nice" problem. We are trying to solve the "people say we aren't nice" problem.

rene

Hmm, that is a refreshing analysis ...

Magisch

That'd be a bit disappointing. I think the "we aren't nice" problem is mostly just differing expectations. But they are working on that

Mark Amery

13:13

@Derpy Okay, but still, why? If we assume you're right, what's the reason for the staff to care? Am I supposed to believe that Jay and Tim and the others are just motivated just by a selfish desire not to be condemned by SJWs, and are willing to run a huge con of a welcoming drive in order to placate them? I'm... not actually that cynical.

Derpy

Back to your original question, @MarkAmery... Why should the staff care about those post? Well... for one they give a very bad image to the network. Consider that:
a) they are clearly facing heavy financial issues. They may be starting a slow recover now, but there have been massive workforce cuts lately.
b) they just launched "teams", which is probably the "this will save us" project

In the meantime, people outside the network controlled environment continue to say things like "SE/SO isn't welcoming", often paired with **very bad** examples (like the infamous "women should just stay home…

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer, blacklisted user: How to record any internal sound in and out using Ubuntu and Audacity by Yiliayoung on askubuntu.com

Derpy

what to do to save the situation? You need to do an immediate PR damage control campaign.

Magisch

I respect tim a considerable amount and don't believe he'd violate his own integrity like that

Mark Amery

infamous "women should just stay home and forget development" - I just Googled that phrase and found no results. Err, what was this? It's not infamous enough for me to have encountered it.

Magisch

13:16

Anti corporatism aside I don't believe we're at this level of cynical yet

Derpy

@MarkAmery that was the meaning not the actual words used. And no, I wont post the actual example here

Back to my view, the best way is to show you care with some big fancy blog advertised actions

Magisch

if it's infamous it might not be infamous here

Derpy

Which means you now have two ways to act:

Magisch

I haven't heard it either. And I'm a metahead

Mark Amery

@Derpy ... from what you originally wrote, I literally don't know if you're describing a thing that someone posted on Stack Overflow, or a way that somebody characterised the beliefs of the typical Stack Overflow user, or something else entirely

Derpy

13:18

a) have the ones that actually live, ie the staff WE know of (shog? Jon? Tim) the situation here do something. They are the one that probably are more fitting for the job.

b) ask some corporate member that probably work at a very different level and have no field experience to do a recovery plan

Magisch

I think tim wouldn't perpetuate or even tolerate such a blatant lying to the userbase. Neither would shog

At least I won't assume it of them until I see concrete proof.

Derpy

I fear they have chosen option B

And so the staff is stuck with "order from above" syndrome, while the "above" is stuck with "my job depends on this" syndrome.

that's once again just my personal headcanon based on what I see and my personal perceptions.

not trying to convince anyone

@Magisch imho, it is not even like they are lying. More of a "the ones that are devising the recovery actions are the ones far away from the issues" problem.

I mean, if the worst they could find is the samples they posted in the blog post we were arguing about.... then they clearly don't know half the problems we have.

Mark Amery

@Derpy those weren't supposed to be "the worst"; they were supposed to be typical examples of the class

(and it wasn't even the worst class! They had an "abusive" class that was worse that they didn't show any examples from)

Derpy

I saw a female dev in a chat board that just left because a -multiple times suspended- user would continue to mock her on every possible occasion. I would prefer to have helped her before trying to see if "you are doing it wrong" is rude. Especially when most of the rude messages I saw aren't just "you are doing it wrong" but more close to "please switch to another job".

Magisch

13:34

@Derpy Real talk though, where are you finding those examples?

I'd like to know so I can ... help fixing them. From what you tell that all sounds ripe for someone to flag the hell out of it and for a CM to go in and clean it out

Journeyman Geek

If you see those you should be flagging the hell out of em.

And saying "I saw someone do something" and... not making sure folks can't take actions...

oh wait

@Derpy this wasn't here was it?

Magisch

If this was here I'm pretty sure mods would come down it like a ton of bricks

especially in chat

I know a couple of mods who would especially come down on it like a ton of bricks

Including a certain dog above

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch oh, totally

Especially on RA

Catija

... um. Lots of activity in here... :/

Journeyman Geek

lol

I literally just got back from work

Magisch

13:44

Hey @cat

How's your day?

Catija

I just got to work. Still on my phone.

Work keeping you busy?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch funny thing is, while we're not that gender diverse (and I'm roughly as protective towards our female users as the male ones), RA's pretty ethnically diverse. Also, I think outside the trolliest trolls, I just need to get disappointed at people to get them to behave, which helps.

But its a good community ;)

So... most of the time stuff gets handled

Magisch

I no joke think this has to do with your ava

nobody wants sad ash

Journeyman Geek

;p

Derpy

@Magisch that specific one I saw while jumping around in various rooms . I think I saw at least 2 different instances of arguments between said user and the offending one, both ending with the offending one being suspended.

Journeyman Geek

13:53

@Derpy was this here?

getting suspended sounds right, but that it kept happening across rooms is a weakness of our moderation system

Derpy

not this room, another one. Always the same one.

I remember that was a room that was very infamous for having its own "culture" but not the details

maybe something about a c++ room?

Journeyman Geek

lounge c++?

Somewhat Memorable Name

Just got back from work. I guess Slender Man really helped me.

Journeyman Geek

TBF, they're infamous....

Derpy

@JourneymanGeek maybe

Journeyman Geek

13:56

So, here's the problem with chat moderation.

Magisch

Didn't most of them migrate to discord/slack?

Journeyman Geek

You quite literally need folks who get the need for a community that isn't a bag of... floppy ones... to actually have one that works

And that includes folks who somehow manage to be tough on folks who think bad behavour is alright, without the power getting to their heads.

and even that's situational

I didn't have the confidence for a bit to go "hey, stop" here. I could do that on SU ;p

so... ehh...

We could do better, but its not a trivial thing

Somewhat Memorable Name

and that's the reason I won't become RO or mod :(

which is, fortunately.

Journeyman Geek

@SomewhatMemorableName you assume I had a choice in the former ;)

Transcript for