Tavern on the Meta

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

00:21

Can someone please respond to my contact about my getting "too many requests"?

Catija

You're not getting enough contact about too many contacts?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Catija See first section here: meta.stackexchange.com/a/164900/377214

@Shog9 Have we ever encountered a case where a user who wanted to rage-quit used sock puppets to serially downvote their posts so that they have a negative score, in order to get them automatically deleted at the time their account gets deleted?

Journeyman Geek

00:44

sigh thank god no

since their socks would need 125 rep.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog someone might give you a too many requests reply.

125? or something

point is that needs planning.

Catija

Yeah, 125 to vote down.

And then they'd need one additional rep per downvote to not lose the privilege.

bjb568

01:24

Journeyman Geek

01:42

That's clever

hey

to be honest...

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Why do you use a strange "claw monster with arms extended" avatar on SO?

hey

good morning

Shog9

hmm...

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Wha? It's a guy wearing a hat... isn't it?

Journeyman Geek

01:52

yup

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

02:14

@Catija No, it's a creepy monster with eyes, a nose, a strange tusk, and extended claw arms.

hey

is it caching?

Catija

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm... not seeing it? Perhaps you could doodle on the image and show me what you mean?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

02:30

Hmm...I see the man in the hat now that you blew it up, but while it was small, I could only see the monster.

Jon Ericson

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog There's a life lesson in there somewhere.

hey

03:00

Well, we see faces in everything

Journeyman Geek

03:13

Especially faces.

When you stare at shogs hat, shog's hat stares back at you.

hey

@SmokeDetector wut?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

03:47

@user3956566 I see you've restored your name on Meta...yet to propagate to chat.

user310756

04:15

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog hm

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@YvetteColomb Out of curiosity, why are you hiding Meta from your network profile?

hey

Usually because "meta is murder" :)

Nog Shine

04:31

Meta is love <3 ;)

user310756

05:24

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I use my SO profile for my CV and I don't have meta, IPS, or parenting attached to my network profile, as they're too personal. So I keep the attached profiles for business. I don't care if the regulars know who I am, but when using it to show my skills, better keep the personal stuff out of it

Journeyman Geek

cv-plz meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310706/…

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

05:42

@SmokeDetector tpu-

@SmokeDetector naa-

Shadow Wizard

06:35

@NogShine soon in the theaters! :D

Metatheatre

Metatheatre, and the closely related term metadrama, describes the aspects of a play that draw attention to its nature as drama or theatre, or to the circumstances of its performance. These may include: the direct address of the audience (especially in soliloquies, asides, prologues, and epilogues); expression of an awareness of the presence of the audience (whether they are addressed directly or not); an acknowledgement of the fact that the people performing are actors (and not actually the characters they are playing); an element whose meaning depends on the difference between the represented...

@YvetteColomb welcome back!

Now bring @Telkitty back as well and all shall be like in the good old days in Tavern. :P

Wanted to test it with actual new user..... :D

Shadow Wizard

06:52

sd k

Nog Shine

@Shadow I asked the question I said meta.stackexchange.com/q/310711/357396

Tagged it with bug and support.

Shadow Wizard

@NogShine yup. Likely it will be closed as dupe, but I let others do it this time as I'm not 100% sure what's going on.

hehe, @Sonic is fast.

Like I said when you first asked, @NogShine, I think it's the same thing, but since you insist it's not, I stay out of it for now. /cc @Sonic

Nog Shine

@ShadowWizard Yup. He is.

Shadow Wizard

Smokey welcoming doesn't appear to work as well as I hoped. :(

Nog Shine

@ShadowWizard I think it is not because that is an FR and ask for anonymizing user names. Mine is not. I ask for updating of the name. Ideally, they should be updated with the name they left the site.

I think they are different.

Shadow Wizard

07:07

@NogShine so what name should be displayed there? It's not clear from your question. (i.e. what name that user had the day their account was deleted?)

Nog Shine

07:49

@ShadowWizard it's only moonstar.

Derpy

@Catija clearly a Metroid.

Nog Shine

Another user Ajay was Parikshita when they left.

Derpy

Journeyman Geek

Shog has a Pacman ghost on his head?

Derpy

no one knows, we can only guess. You see Blinky, I see a Metroid, other see a claw monster.

Nog Shine

07:56

"That solved my problem" is not diplayed to me

Shadow Wizard

@NogShine well, see my answer.

Martin James

@Derpy Che Guevara?

Shadow Wizard

@NogShine because you edited

@Bart so where will you go when Stack Exchange is shut down? You got an alternative already? ;)

hey

08:16

@Derpy cute ghost

would like to pet

Shadow Wizard

hey

"How can I pet Foster's imaginary friends?"

Derpy

@hey Bloo?

Also, little trivia...

hey

I missed this cartoon show...

Derpy

Forster's Home for Imaginary Friends was also "made" by Lauren Faust

Shadow Wizard

08:26

@hey sounds like legit question on Pets, go ahead and ask! :P

Derpy

@ShadowWizard shall we all move to Legend of Equestria? We could just chat in the local Sugarcube.

Shadow Wizard

08:40

@Derpy sounds good! creating account

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shadow reopen-pls Not a duplicate; I (and apparently four other users) glossed over one sentence, which threw off my understanding of the question and made me reason the wrong way (cc @NogShine): meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310711/…

Nog Shine

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog You convinced me that it is a dupe :D

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@NogShine I overlooked the sentence "They commented the day before the deletion with another name which is not the name on the banner.", and I thought the "other username" you were referring to was the anonymized username upon deletion

user310756

@ShadowWizard only when pinged. I'm still grieving Telkitty's account closure

Nog Shine

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog No, they are different. It should be moonstar but it is moonstar2001.

Their account is present on MSE too.

Martin James

08:57

@YvetteColomb I don't know why Telkitty left and, now it's happened, I don't need to know. I can say that really enjoyed the various pics that s/he posted in the Lounge and elsewhere. It sometimes seems that there is a concerted effort to remove all fun from SE/SO and replace it with pseudo-political hassle:(

Derpy

I think she was just a victim of the BeNice Police© that was introduced in a somehow weird attempt to react to various "accusations", the last of them probably being April posts.

Martin James

@Derpy Colour, (!) me surprised... :(

user310756

@MartinJames TelKitty is my friend in RL (met her in here). She's a pretty cool person. I think we do need some places on here to have fun. We're a tight knit community.. a bit like a big ~~dysfunctional~~ family.

user310756

ok shameless plug

user310756

The Litter Box

General discussion for pets.stackexchange.com. Pet pictures an...

1

Magisch

09:05

SE is the least personal and tight knit community I've ever been a part of

user310756

For all pet spam, please join us.

user310756

Silly conversation is allowed - but keep it clean, we're a family oriented site :)

user310756

@Magisch compared to my RL family it is

Magisch

Every deliberate mechanic of the site is aimed to suppress the formation of a social community

user310756

the active users all know each other

user310756

09:06

except chat!

Magisch

I know some people's usersnames, but thats about it

user310756

Long live chat

Magisch

I've never met another SE user in real life

Everything on main and meta is adversarial, standoffish. You're expected to be able to justify and defend every action you take everywhere. And people won't hold back because they know you. It's really alien compared to the rest of the 'web

Derpy

@Magisch not quite. The problem, if any, is that we oscillate between no moderation and the "Ye posted a cat picture! Blasphemy! You will be burinated in pain and disgrace" Holy Inquisition thing.

user310756

@Magisch fb is far worse

Magisch

09:09

I used FB briefly several years ago for sharing homework in class and never outside of that

hey

twitter

Magisch

long since deleted my account

in certain ways the fact that SE is so unpersonal helps quite a bit ... you can focus more on the topic and subject of discussion

in other ways not having traditional social structures is extremely alienating to those used to them

user310756

I left fb and have no social media accounts. Been doing too much research about online security and privacy

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch yet it happens

Martin James

@YvetteColomb lol - just been there for cool pics:)

Magisch

09:11

@JourneymanGeek idk if it actually does

user310756

@MartinJames bookmark it! and attend daily (I will take role call)

Magisch

outside of some chatrooms the entire site feels like a big topical amorphous mass

hey

yet, it's social software

14 hours ago, by Shog9

So... the thing to remember is that while SO/SE isn't a social network, it most definitely is social software - that is to say, people use it to interact with other people, there are rules and conventions about how they do so, and a lot of little bits of etiquette that aren't necessarily rules but affect how folks interact.

Magisch

every user as interchangeable as the next

Journeyman Geek

Quite a few of the older sites have a fairly regular steam of people who online socialize over chat or elsewhere

Martin James

09:12

@YvetteColomb OK!

user310756

@MartinJames :D

Journeyman Geek

If I was looking killed by a falling pipe organ I don't think I'm replaceable to the SE community.... Unless someone else has a cute dog :p

hey

Anyway, I still have FB, Twitter, etc accounts. Not for social networking though, only for ~~stalking~~ observing recent trends.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek can you not walk into any cathedrals please

user310756

@hey lol

rene

09:17

Is this a spam seed: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310714/… ?

yes it is

hey

flagged for mod attention to tell that it's spam seed

rene

and gone ...

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek To be fair, the site would probably keep on trucking

rene

→ 21 messages moved to Chimney

SmokeDetector

09:36

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: Strange hair growth behavior by Sonu Semwal on health.SE

Shadow Wizard

09:54

!!/report meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310716/…

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Solve this Question? -By Irving Scheib by Nicholas Constable on mathoverflow.net

Shadow Wizard

@YvetteColomb sorry to hear... and sorry about Telkitty though no idea what happened.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog done

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@YvetteColomb I struggle with tact because of my autism spectrum disorder

user310756

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I've never had a problem with you

user310756

@ShadowWizard it must be your fault somehow :)

SmokeDetector

09:57

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: Solve this Question? -By Irving Scheib by irving scheib on mathoverflow.net

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

And that's something I need to fix in order to help with my aspirations into education

@YvetteColomb Did you ever meet Telkitty again after she deleted her account?

hey

would be surprising if they don't...

user310756

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog her SO account is still there and yes we talk and will catch up soon

Shadow Wizard

@YvetteColomb maybe she didn't like my waffle?

Apr 30 at 11:35, by Shadow Wizard

//give TelKitty waffle

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch probably

hey

10:08

I'm sleeper

and borer

(wow, that doesn't make any sense)

Shadow Wizard

@hey actually, it does.

> a worm, mollusk, insect, or insect larva that bores into wood, other plant material, or rock

;)

So which of those four are you? @hey

user310756

@ShadowWizard it's all your fault LOL (it's nothing to do with you really)

user310756

go here and ask her yourselves

Shadow Wizard

@YvetteColomb well, no waffles for her now! Too lazy to send them over to SO. :D

hey

@ShadowWizard I choose you, Molluska!

user310756

10:13

you are *soooooooo lazy

Shadow Wizard

@hey awesome! Now with @Norm gone, you can finally have your own, unique, name! :P

status-laziness-overflow

I'm so lazy that I'm too lazy to be lazy.

rene

flags random messages in the Lounge, closes Window

hey

I flagged the cucumber one, too cucumbered

Shadow Wizard

oh, thanks for reminding me

@JNat cross site spammer for your dedicated treatment: stackexchange.com/users/10315473/lindsey?tab=accounts. Spammed MSE for sure, probably other sites as well. Thanks!

@hey but it's green

We can't flag green stuff, aliens will be offended. ;)

hey

10:28

... I just realized it's an eggplant, not cucumber >_<

Derpy

@ShadowWizard I think you can even see me (or to be more precise, my character) in a video / review a youtuber made some time ago. Good luck trying to find out which character that would be.

I somehow also remind appearing in a picture taken during a Hide&Seek game in ~~Canterlot~~ Cantermore

hey

(confused because I have a difficulty in differentiating them in my local language, both starts with 'T': "Timun" and "Terong")

(just like some Indonesian people have a difficulty in differentiating "left" and "right" because both starts with 'K': "kiri" and "kanan")

Somewhat funny, but also sad and ironic answer? Is it possible to block spammers based on country of origin? -- Meta Hinduism

Shadow Wizard

@hey oh, so you can flag

@Derpy tried once already when you mentioned it

Derpy

@ShadowWizard when I first mentioned it, only the picture taken in Canterlot existed.

Shadow Wizard

@hey yes that's Shog

Funny, but also sad and somewhat ironic.

:D

Derpy

10:40

The actual video taken during a party in the Sugarcube came after that

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy oh, this?

I assume you're Fluttershy there?

Also no gender specified so no "risk" for you posting it anyway. ;)

Derpy

I was remembering another picture but it is indeed possible that "it was I", yep.

But that would be weird. Where is my rabbit then?

unless the rabbit wandered all the way to the right of the picture

which is also very possible.

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy or behind a tree

Derpy

11:45

.... I was thinking about posting a question about Death Note. Yet I'm not really willing to create an account on anime

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: What is the name of this category of videos? by Shivangi Roy on graphicdesign.SE

Magisch

The heat death of the universe is a depressing concept

Mgetz

12:03

@Magisch I'm putting it firmly in the same category that the people that caused y2k did: I'll happen long after I'm dead and buried

Shadow Wizard

12:33

@Derpy use a sock

@Mgetz not really... assuming most software with y2k bugs were written between 1950 and 1999, I'd say most of their programmers were still very much alive in 2000.

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard dunno

Magisch

@ShadowWizard That implies a lack of foresight doesn't it?

If I'm writing a program in 1990 making the date formatting break at 2000 would be a bad idea (tm)

Mgetz

@Magisch You mean like the fact that various versions of RHEL still used 32bit time_t?

Magisch

yah

we are past the point where performance constraints make such hacks necessary

Discrete lizard

@Magisch Well, hindsight is 2000/20. I mean, everyone just used two digits up until now. I'd see no reason to suddenly break from established best practices ;)

Mgetz

12:45

Yeah.. I'm tempted to start a consulting business going to various major companies that still rely on 16bit software and helping them migrate to software that supports 64bit time_t before 2037

Magisch

I'll be 42 years old in 2037

sigh

Mgetz

@Magisch actually such hacks will probably slow code down now

hey

@Derpy ask on Movies & TV instead

user310756

@Shog9 can the team revisit this decline decision please

user310756

705

Q: Allow an edit to notify downvoters: "I think I've fixed the issue now - please check"

To me, a downvote usually indicates a problem with an answer. When I downvote it's to mark the answer as having a problem, not the person. If the answer is fixed, I want to remove that downvote - but it's tricky to keep track of all the questions I've looked at over the last few hours. I don't a...

Discrete lizard

12:54

@YvetteColomb This seems like a good idea, but the question would be whether it has any noticeable effect. I think that boils down to the precise question: "Will people that aren't willing to explain their issue in a comment when they downvoted willing to be engaged when the author edits a post?". This feature seems useful only if the answer to that will be 'usually, yes'.

user310756

hm I think it's a little different, voting or reversing to vote as compared to being prepared to comment

Mgetz

Does anyone know if SE still subscribes to the vision statement?

Discrete lizard

@YvetteColomb It is, but the question is whether that difference is meaningful in practice. But I guess there is no way to find that out other than testing, given that notifications to all downvoters isn't a thing in any kind of form.

Martin James

I hardly ever downvote answers anyway. I only dv them if they are totally and utterly incorrect and will not work and so I have no problem with any notification mechanism on maybe-fixed answers.

Feeds

13:11

Public Data Release of Stack Overflow’s 2018 Developer Survey

Julia Silge on May 30, 2018

Starting today, you can access the public data release for Stack Overflow’s 2018 Developer Survey. Over 100,000 developers from around the world shared their opinions about everything from their favorite technologies to job preferences, and this data is now available for you to analyze yourself. This year, we are partnering with Kaggle to publish and highlight this dataset. This means you can access the data both here on our site and on Kaggle Datasets, and that on Kaggle, you can explore the dataset using Kernels. Kaggle is awarding two $1,000 awards over the next two weeks to authors of top Kernels on the Stack Overflow dataset. …

Shadow Wizard

@YvetteColomb only -69 to Jeff decline post, SE probably wait for it to reach -100 before starting to re-think it. ;)

user310756

@ShadowWizard huh?

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz what do you mean by that?

It's just some old, (too) happy, blog post. No?

I doubt anyone in SE will call the last 5 years since then a "miracle" though.

Maybe a miracle it still survives...

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard It seems like SE is focusing on being all things to all people rather than an singular vision statement. In my experience and in the accumulated wisdom passed down to me that's a great way to fail at all the things.

If I look at SE through the lens of what Jeff originally proposed it's failed miserably

Shadow Wizard

13:27

-69

A: Allow an edit to notify downvoters: "I think I've fixed the issue now - please check"

While this is a good idea, I think @name comment notifications gets us close enough to this. In other words, if someone leaves a comment about why your post is wrong, you can now reply to them and they'll be notified. http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/new-improved-comments-with-reply/ I th...

See the score ^

user310756

@ShadowWizard gotcha thanks

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz not really "all things to all people", more like it's trying to satisfy everyone, while still keeping high quality somehow.

Each site still has its own focus.

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard I don't think that's possible, you can't make everybody happy.

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz true, and that's why this whole... thing... happening these days is ought to fail.

But we can't stop them from trying, only watch.

Mgetz

I think that's what I'm trying to express. The whole focus on "Be nice" I think is well intentioned but without a vision statement to frame what that means and how it impacts the site I think it's a waste of resources.

Shadow Wizard

13:31

Bringing again my "suggestion" from yesterday, if for example SE will remove downvotes, it will make tons of people happy: all the newbies and people who seek help without being downvoted. But it will also make some people not so happy.

Mgetz

Which comes back to the question I asked before: What's the overall goal? Is the goal to be a help site that caters to every asker regardless of question quality? Or is the goal to create a set of high quality answers that are curated over time?

Magisch

@ShadowWizard Newbies won't be happy when the site quality plummets

Mgetz

The former seems to be where SE is going, but the latter was the original vision

TBF the latter has no business case

John Dvorak

@Magisch Tragedy of the commons

hey

@ShadowWizard half-day ago, someone posted the same thing on Meta ELU...

Mgetz

13:38

@JohnDvorak The idea of a commons in general seems to have disappeared from modern economic theory to a dangerous extent. Without a societal core value of the preservation and conservation of the commons they are doomed to be inequitably exploited

Tim Post

@Mgetz We do. What we did was put off some festering problems surrounding what we weren't doing for new users, and some other stuff because we had no choice but to pursue some pretty urgent business goals. The discombobulation you've picked up on is just us getting back to where we left off (now that we achieved those urgent business goals).

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch they won't care. They only want answer to their specific question so they can copy and paste it, and leave happily until they need more codez.

Discrete lizard

@ShadowWizard That is a bit like a political party saying "We're going to improve all infrastructure and increase fundings all around, etc.", which most people like. However, most people don't like the fact that it is necessary to increase taxes to do this and people can be fooled if they don't see the connection. Your suggestion is similar, in the sense that 'no downvotes' sounds like a good idea in isolation, but in practice likely leads to a loss in quality control (the ' increase in taxes').

Mgetz

@TimPost I'm glad you're aware at least, I think the disconnect needs to be worked out ASAP though. As mentioned above the 'commons' of SE is being rapidly destroyed. You're losing mindshare that feels they are being pushed out due to policy changes; and that will result in fewer users as quality declines.

Tim Post

@Mgetz It's our top priority project.

3

Shadow Wizard

13:42

@Discretelizard very true

hey

Minority rules~

Shadow Wizard

@hey huh

Interesting

Mgetz

@Discretelizard This has been said before

Shadow Wizard

Anything has been said before, sometime, by someone.

Trick is to find it. ;)

Mgetz

Oh agreed, I just think FDR said it quite eloquently

Discrete lizard

13:46

@ShadowWizard False, the concatenation of everything that has been said before hasn't been said before ;) Now, if you say that everything that is humanely possible to cram in a few sentences has been said before, I agree.

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard aaaand the predictable pop culture reference

Shog9

@YvetteColomb so, I looked into this a while back. For even our most active users, it'd be a reasonably small number of notifications... But still potentially enough to be, if not an annoyance, too many to reasonably review on an ongoing basis while still processing other inbox notifications.

Also... We learned from feeding edited questions into review that an awful lot of folks edit without really making substantive fixes.

Fatigue would be something to watch out for.

user310756

@Shog9 sure I can accept that.

Shog9

However... The bright side of this observation is that it would be a fairly small list, if it were possible to separate it out from what's pushed into your face via the topbar/email/mobile notifications.

An idea that Robert Cartaino had waaaay back when we were designing review - which, unfortunately, we've never had the resources to implement - was the notion of personal review queues

Derpy

@ShadowWizard It is not an "username problem". The issue I have with Anime.SE is that for a long time while I was considering creating an account the top 1 tag on the site probably was uncouth-anime-identification

Shog9

13:52

Essentially, a review queue filled with tasks that only you saw

This would be perfect for stuff like "you downvoted this post and then it was edited"

user310756

@Shog9 can we employ free labour from SO that you can integrate :)

user310756

yes!

user310756

would that be difficult to implement?

user310756

also while I have you here, did you get my email?

hey

@Derpy relax, it's naruto now... followed with one-piece, and then music ID requests...!?

Shog9

13:53

But it'd also be a great alternative for stuff like "edits in tags I follow", or "pending close votes on questions I've answered/upvoted/edited" or "new answers to my favorite questions"

@YvetteColomb I did; haven't had a chance to get to email yet this week.

user310756

@Shog9 I figured you've been busy

Shog9

between the long weekend and a sick dog, been a lot of distractions for a short week :)

Mgetz

@hey HEY you want to know what OP X of Gintama is right⁉

Magisch

@Shog9 I'd like it if you made it opt in

user310756

@Shog9 ah I hope you feel as healthy as a horse

Magisch

13:56

One of the frustrations that led to me personally stopping curation efforts is that I have no way to know if OP took my advice

hey

@Mgetz all of them are on my ignored tags~ >_>

Shog9

@YvetteColomb unfortunately, this is one of those things that's hard to bolt on, as it requires detailed knowledge of a user's private activities

Magisch

I'd be more motivated to make helpful / guiding comments and explain myself on closures and DVs if I had a way to "check back" on what I worked on outside of keeping a spreadsheet current

user310756

@Shog9 ah k

user310756

yes that makes sense

Martin James

13:58

...another queue I can ignore....

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Hypothesis testing: by Juan Abr Ikna on math.SE

Shog9

@Magisch The DIY way to accomplish this is to just revisit the questions on the votes tab of your profile

Magisch

That's the same with flags and stuff, I'd like to know what happens to stuff I act on so I can follow up! but I agree that it could get distracting on a permanent basis so having it opt in could really help

Shog9

And, honestly, a quick way to improve on the current situation would be to just add a "last modified..." indicator to those lists

Magisch

@Shog9 I would have to write a US to check if they'd been edited though

Yeah please

Shog9

13:59

That would still have the problem of not being very discoverable, of course.

Derpy

@hey yep, and then a mod had to step in to "friendly request" "toning down" the images posted by the Taisho chat bot... or entering a new glacial age.

Magisch

hence my idea with opt in inbox notifications

Shog9

But, it WOULD be relatively cheap to implement vs. an entire new review system

Magisch

or opt out, whatever suits your fancy

The Litter Box

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