Tavern on the Meta

12:18 AM

undo's minirant / random musing of the week: Project growth.

People like to find problems. It's how they contribute value. They often want to fix said problems

At the beginning of a project, this works great. There are plenty of problems to discover and solve, all constructive-type problems. "This should work better" type things

Eventually, a project matures. Mature projects run out of constructive problems.

So all that's left is destructive problems.

Journeyman Geek

hah

Are we talking about the future of SD or stack as a whole? ;p

Undo

Take your pick ;)

Folks have to start looking around the edges for problems. These tend to be edge cases that aren't handled right

And you're faced with a choice: Do you ignore the edge cases, declare a project good enough in an aspect?

Journeyman Geek

(though, I think SE/SO will always have people problems - and not everything can be deved away)

@Undo well, I'd say look at the cost/benefit.

Undo

Easy to say, not so easy to do

Journeyman Geek

Though I know a few people who're convinced there must be no edge cases...

Undo

12:23 AM

And there should be no edge cases. In a perfectly designed system, there would be none.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo that's easy to say... not easy to do

Undo

Indeed.

Journeyman Geek

and most systems are not perfect. They're written by meat.

Undo

No one ever gets a perfect system. So when do you say it's good enough, and refuse to consider a rearch to fix an edge case?

Journeyman Geek

I'd argue that a good chunk of current big issues on a good many mature, large projects are level 8.

@Undo when fixing that edge case could break a good many things

Undo

12:24 AM

Aye

Journeyman Geek

or when the time needed to fix said edge case outweighs the benefit fixing it causes.

Undo

But it's easy to get tunnel vision on an edge case, because everything else works fine. It's hard to be the person saying "yeah, that's bad, but it doesn't really matter much"

Journeyman Geek

But I'm not a coder - but I adopt that philosophy to adminning my systems :)

@Undo well, in theory, that's easy.

since it means doing nothing.

Undo

"Look at all these cases where it worked fine" isn't a great defense to "someone died this one time"

Journeyman Geek

The status quo is always easy, as is "starting a new project cause the old one is done"

cough

Undo

12:26 AM

@JourneymanGeek In a benevolent dictatorship, perhaps. Even then, it's difficult to tell people not to fix something.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo or rather "if we fixed it, we need at least X man hours"

or that "there's other projects that need our current resources more"

In a sense - SE's app is an example.

Undo

Or "It works fine, mostly, and we don't want to rock the boat."

John Dvorak

Cue Preston Garvey meme

Journeyman Geek

Its useful but the benefit of trying to update it (which it sorely needs) is outweighed by other concerns.

Undo

Because rocking the boat might make the sails fall off or something, then you have waaay bigger problems than the mice running around in the hull.

In ye olden sailing times, mice were just kinda there

Journeyman Geek

12:28 AM

@Undo on the other hand, its a bad idea to rebuild the hull while on the water.

Undo

Now, if you see a mouse on a cruise ship, a customer would freak the heck out. The captain needs to say "We can't really do anything about that right now because we'd need to fumigate the whole darn ship", but the headline is "CALLOUS CAPTAIN ALLOWS DANGEROUS RODENT FREE REIGN OF CRUISE LINE"

Journeyman Geek

... I'm out of bad analogies.

Undo

Anyway, tl;dr: People will find things to worry about. As projects get more perfect, the worries become smaller, more focused, and harder to ignore - even if ignoring is in the best interest of a project.

Apply that to whatever you think I'm talking about. There are many options.

Anonymous

12:53 AM

👍

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

1:43 AM

Hmm...guess IKEA wants to switch to Segoe UI

Journeyman Geek

2:38 AM

hm

that was fun.

Been trying to move my matrix-synapse homeserver from a sql backend to a postgres backend...

Catija

Sounds like a great way to spend your days off...

Journeyman Geek

basically was stuck with the migration script. Realised it basically hadn't done... anything, and figured it was postgres related so threw out their instructions, dug up my old notes for ttrss and did it

then hit a second known bug... which was an easy fix

@Catija very!

The really fun part were the really useless error messages for something unrelated ._.

Catija

2:51 AM

:/ Yay?

hey

:/ Hay?

Catija

:/ Hoy?

Journeyman Geek

@Catija kinda yay

I mean, I don't do these things professionally ;)

Catija

I don't even understand what you said you were doing, so ... you're better off than I am. :P

Journeyman Geek

;p

synapse is a chat thing.

Kinda like IRCish, or like SE chat

we're using it as an alternative since not everything folks on RA want to talk about can/should be default public

We arn't mass migrating

Catija

3:07 AM

I thought everyone just used Discord. :P

Journeyman Geek

and its handy for say, setting up notifications from a PC to your phone for random things

lol

or whatsapp (ewww)

Catija

Hangouts?

Journeyman Geek

but eh, most of us rather run our own

.... google basically managed to kill off their own chat services by overdiversifying

I mean, they now have hangouts (for companies) duo, allo, ...

Catija

Yeah? I don't know... I use GChat but it is Hangouts... works for me.

Journeyman Geek

I think there may be a few stragglers on gtalk.

(also, like half the people on root access have hobby servers)

so we tend to... run things

Catija

3:09 AM

... I use whatever's built into the email ... but it's also Hangouts. I thought it was GChat... but I could be wrong.

Journeyman Geek

and cross pollinate

Catija

Busy little bees.

Journeyman Geek

It don't even remember which one it is XD

For example - I used to run apache, then run lighttpd (and share configs with people with lesser servers)

I run ngnix now and got a little help with stuff there

I also run ttrss (which runs a pgsql database) and I basically passed my notes for some customisations to someone else who was running it

and my install notes for that are public, though outdated at the moment

;p

Catija

I'm at capacity when it comes to chat software... I use this chat on two servers with ~14 rooms open all the time... I have hangouts/GChat (whatever it is), Discord... Slack...

Journeyman Geek

oh gawd

Catija

3:11 AM

I'd rather pick up more of the same than something new.

Journeyman Geek

lets see...

hey

Apr 27 at 3:57, by hey

Sure, for new users, when getting downvoted to below 0, replace it with "Uh oh!" instead.

Journeyman Geek

SE chat (x2) slack (x2) - mostly folks who left SE chat for various reasons, matrix (eventually going to get plumbed into my home server)....

hey

(someone's sarcasm meter would probably break again)

Journeyman Geek

I'm toying with setting up an internal asterisk server at some point

though probably when I move out in 2-3 years

Hoping I can get away with things like that with hypothetical future mrs geek.

Catija

3:13 AM

Why not?

Journeyman Geek

Not everyone 'gets it' ?

Catija

Gets... what? Interacting with people online?

Journeyman Geek

lol. Setting up servers for fun

Getting hardware at what I consider reasonable intervels ;p

and so on ;p

Catija

Oh... spending money on stuff?

Journeyman Geek

yup

cause right now .... ehh...

I literally spend less than 100 quid a month I think ;p

Catija

3:16 AM

Eh... depends on how you work things out... I think it's important to have money for "fun" stuff... you get it for servers, she gets it for... martial arts equipment... or becoming the next Imelda Marcos... or taking college classes all the time.

Journeyman Geek

hah, ya

People need to get other people have hobbies ;p

(my parents ... don't)

I do stuff anyway, lol

I'm just waiting for a buffer cause yanno, having money is good

+++ I think I can do quite a bit off my 'extra' shift pay

Catija

That's all sort of going to depend on what job you have ... if you don't keep bouncing between temp work.

Journeyman Geek

yup

but it should be a decision I make?

(which it sometimes feel not)

and shrug I THINK the most recent part of my setup is from when I was in what was supposed to be a regular job

and most of it's older XD

Catija

I've always been very supportive of Andy's hobbies... and he of mine... heck, he puts up with me on here all the time. ;)

Journeyman Geek

but having the option is nice.

;p

anyway, my aunt's started looking, and my mom's already... slightly totally ignored what I said so... lets see how it goes ;)

Catija

3:30 AM

HAHA. Well, it's a matter of finding someone, then, it seems.

Journeyman Geek

hah

I guess its not that different from blind speed dating, victorian style

Catija

But you do meet at some point, right? Possibly with families in tow?

Journeyman Geek

and presumably wedging in trips to india on off says

@Catija oh, pretty early on

So... at the moment I think its

1) look up potentials on matchmaking site

2) aunt vets and makes first contact

3) elders go talk - aunt is handling that too

4) if terms match, then they arrange a chaperoned meet.

5) if folks are sorta ok, they talk, then if both sides are ok, get engaged.

6) there's usually a period in between. Sometimes things break off there but usually there's long distance talkage going on.

so, ya, at least one or two physical meets in that time ;p

and tbh, my aunts have done this sucessfully with their own kids so... at least they know what to do, more or less.

but they literally signed up for 1) yesterday

so... it'll take a while before any news?

tbh, I actually the older way (skip step 1) feels more.... sensible but shrug

Catija

HAHA. I see.

Journeyman Geek

and heh

Catija

3:39 AM

Well, finding potential people would be more difficult without step 1?

Journeyman Geek

I have like 0 criteria. My mom added a few ._.

@Catija going through people you know?

Catija

Smaller pool, though...

Journeyman Geek

cause I'm more concerned with character and personality than anything else.

Catija

Do you want someone who wants to work or be at home?

Journeyman Geek

@Catija I don't care.

Mom told my aunt "has to want to work" and has to know how to cook

and I'm facedesk

Catija

3:40 AM

Hmmm.

Journeyman Geek

(a or condition is fine)

Catija

Yeah... working and cooking seems like you're asking a lot.

Journeyman Geek

and

(within reason) I didn't set an explicit age range

I mean, if someone was like 18 or something I'd be o0

hey

18 o_O

Journeyman Geek

but eh, mom's like "28-32"

@hey heh, I'd probably say no ;p

but that's besides the point

Catija

3:43 AM

That's only four years. :/

Journeyman Geek

3-6 I guess?

which is ok

but but

I was like "eh, don't focus on constrants first"

anyway

I think my aunt'll figure it out shrug

hey

it's like... searching for jobs...

Journeyman Geek

.... quite

Catija

Permanent ones.

Journeyman Geek

oh ya

well, I'm stuck in this one for the next year at least.

so Permanant enough?

Catija

3:46 AM

I mean the wife.

Journeyman Geek

Ah hopefully

Things can go horribly wrong

But yanno. You lose all the choices you don't make

Catija

... clearly. :/ :(

Hopefully lightning won't strike the same family twice?

Journeyman Geek

Hopefully

Lol. But i do note my aunts have a 100% success rate there

Catija

4:02 AM

So far ;)

Journeyman Geek

Yup.

Well 3 of 4 seem happy

The other is probably next XD

Catija

4:19 AM

Fingers crossed.

Magisch

4:32 AM

@JourneymanGeek That looks so strange to me

Over 'ere nobody gets engaged until they've been in a comitted relationship for some time and know for certai

At least very few people do, anyways

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch if it were normal elsewhere it wouldn't be worth mentioning :p

Magisch

point

What would your parents do if you met someone independantly and they didn't approve?

Journeyman Geek

5:15 AM

be grumpy for a bit.

Its literally happened a few times to a few cousins.

rene

5:43 AM

→ 10 messages moved to Chimney

Journeyman Geek

6:01 AM

Well once per cousin

For cousins > 1

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek didn't you say you're not a programmer?

Because you think like one

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch can't code :p

I get logic fine. Just not the linguistics

Magisch

That's the easiest part though

Linguistics and syntax is literally just practice

Journeyman Geek

6:28 AM

hah

I find language hard

Shadow Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ nope, not really

@hey great minds...

@Magisch here we have several TV shows where real people get married after a single meeting. And many people do it without getting money from TV show. I don't like it, but people are probably just desperate at some point so they'll take anything.

Magisch

@ShadowWizard sounds like a recipe for disaster

rene

Who was commenting there?

Magisch

I don't do physical intimacy anyways but if I'd pledge to spend the rest of my life with someone I'd want to know them very very well first

Shadow Wizard

@rene me, mistake. No question ban.

rene

6:41 AM

yep

Shadow Wizard

OP got way too many high score questions on SO to have a ban.

rene

it looked like a genuine mistake

Shadow Wizard

@rene Maybe he followed the Brace yourselves: The GDPR is coming! to MSE and forgot to get back to SO.

Magisch

How do you even determine compatibility after one meeting?

You're basicly strangers at that point

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch oh, this is a multi-month process.

Also, no idea, I've kinda never really done this before?

Shadow Wizard

7:14 AM

@Magisch you decide it's a match and you'll be happy, no matter what. :D

Magisch

@ShadowWizard I'm not sure that's a decision you can even make after 1 meeting

Journeyman Geek

or it ends horribly in fire and divorce

@Magisch there's a bit of background work tho

Magisch

You'd have to spend years getting to know them intimately first

Journeyman Geek

its not literally "OK! GIRL! MARRY! DONE!"

@Magisch some cultures have dessert first

Magisch

idk having your parents and family involved feels horrible and intrusive

Journeyman Geek

7:16 AM

hah

But I'm ok with that, mostly

Magisch

What business does your mother or aunt have knowing or deciding anything about your love life?

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch cause they know some people, who know some people who...

Magisch

Maybe my perspective is tainted in this because my family will not leave me alone despite multiple requests to do so

"oh it'll all change when you find the right woman"

Journeyman Geek

hah

Remaining single is an option.

Magisch

I think my dad is just salty he'll never get grandkids

Shadow Wizard

7:18 AM

@JourneymanGeek this can happen even if you spend 10 years with the spouse before getting married.

Journeyman Geek

yup

or you could live a happy life with your marriage cut short by a rogue lawnmower accident.

Magisch

For me to get into a relationship would be cruel and unusual punishment for my partner

Journeyman Geek

:(

That's a pretty negative viewpoint to have

Magisch

Not because of anything outwardly bad, it's just most people can't do without physical intimacy, and I'm asexual

Journeyman Geek

ah

Magisch

7:22 AM

To pretend to be able to make that work would be pretty unethical and disrespectful of the other's feelings

Journeyman Geek

Well, some folks are cool with that.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Magisch Me too, and aromantic

Shadow Wizard

7:38 AM

@Magisch pretty sure there are asexual females out there as well who would still want relationship.

And males... it's really not relevant. :)

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

The only reason I'd prefer to get married is for the tax and financial benefits

Magisch

I don't care too much about dodging taxes

I feel the tax rate I pay is fair

is around 40%

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

But again, that's not a breaking factor

Magisch

Well good luck on your search @JourneymanGeek

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

I have a cousin in India who is about 30 and still not married, and he's feeling the family force

Journeyman Geek

7:41 AM

thanks

I suspect it might be needed

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I'm older than that ;)

Magisch

there's bound to be someone for you

with 7 billion people and all

Journeyman Geek

XD

Magisch

y'all old

I'm 23 and already feeling old :(

Journeyman Geek

I guess I'll know in... 6-8 weeks?

Magisch

embarassing but fun fact: I had to count years to verify if I'm 23 or 24

rene

7:48 AM

interesting profile activity

@Magisch trust me, in 6 years you don't mind anymore ...

Shadow Wizard

@rene why?

What's special about it?

rene

@ShadowWizard they only have the 30 days consecutive visits?

Just a bot or an left running terminal session

Shadow Wizard

@rene or someone who just visited every day? Don't think it's really rare.

Can you make a query to see how many users got only this badge, with no other activity?

rene

@ShadowWizard I was about to do that, yes

Shadow Wizard

Though most people don't bother to create account unless they mean to do something, so that's the strange part.

(i.e. why creating the account)

Journeyman Geek

7:59 AM

@Magisch I do that all the tme ;p

Derpy

How nice. Followed HNQ link only to find a pretty chain of rude comments.

Upvoted rude comments nonetheless

Magisch

@Derpy link?

rene

@ShadowWizard first run for the easiest query data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/856963 but not all first actions give you a badge so I'll refine this a bit

Derpy

have fun. You get the whole set, from "women spend a lot of time searching in their bags" to "let's show everyone that I am so grown up by using grown up words just because I can"

I don't have an account on that site, so feel free to act on the link as you wish. You won't "steal my flags" or anything.

Magisch

looks to me like a somewhat petty discussion that got a little angry at times

And the searching your bag comment was needlessly gendered ... but I'm pretty sure I'd get declined flags if I tried to flag it

Derpy

8:12 AM

@Magisch oh, trust me, that was fully accounted for.

Mithrandir

The whole conversation is kinda unnecessary.

Magisch

It is

Journeyman Geek

._.

I spend a lot of time searching in my bag sometimes.

Magisch

after this I no longer participate in moderation on travel.se anyways: travel.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/4679/…

Journeyman Geek

Also, I kinda... think doing that to a poor retail drone is mean

Magisch

8:13 AM

The mods there have their own with the rest of the network incompatible idea of how to do things

Shadow Wizard

@rene umm... what is this?

rene

@ShadowWizard atm it is the execution plan ... :(

Shadow Wizard

oh

rene

because it times out ...

Shadow Wizard

I'm not that much into SQL, I'm afraid

rene

8:16 AM

and I have no idea why ... because it shouldn't

Shadow Wizard

@rene yeah, well with so much data on SO, it's hard to find a query that won't time out. :(

oh, get rid of the as [User Link] @rene, you said yourself many times it's causing timeouts. No?

(since it's going over all the records, doing stuff)

Magisch

magic links are poison for performance

It's much faster to assemble them yourself, even.

rene

hmmm

that is not it I think, it worked in my first run with 8000 rows and this query should return less

but I'm trying that now

just in case y'll right and me wrong

Shadow Wizard

Well, you're the SQL guru.... :)

@Derpy flagged the answer asking to clean/move all comments.

The heated discussion was a while ago so hopefully it won't be back.

Magisch

I know that for my serial voting query I had to move from using magic links because magic links were making it time out every time

Shadow Wizard

8:26 AM

Magic comes with a cost, yeah.

Sometimes it requires human sacrifice, sometimes only time sacrifice. :P

rene

@ShadowWizard it runs now ... using an exists worked better here

Derpy

@ShadowWizard good luck

Shadow Wizard

@rene :)

@Derpy :)

rene

8:45 AM

@ShadowWizard 7655 users only have an Entusiast or Fanatic badge, not other activity

Magisch

network wide or SO only?

rene

@Magisch SO only

Shadow Wizard

@rene quite a lot

Derpy

9:22 AM

and I need one answer more to reach 20... then only 14 more points across them...

the evil plan is slowly taking shape.

SmokeDetector

9:52 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: What formula should be used to determine "hot" questions? by biaodianfu on meta.SE (@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog)

Shadow Wizard

sd ignore

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard [:6984675] Post ignored; alerts about it will no longer be posted.

SmokeDetector

10:08 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened URL in body: What's hot in data science interviews in 2018? by Anupran Trivedi on datascience.SE

user391243

hello

Derpy

aaaaaand it sems balpha wants to play.

(must be balpha, he is the only that seems online right now)

ah. Just noticed the name.

Shadow Wizard

@Derpy nah, just a bored mortal. No chicken this time.

!!/blame @Community

Derpy

10:27 AM

Yep, I realize that now. That said, I am not sure the staff will like the joke.

Shadow Wizard

The staff has more important stuff to care about.

As long as they don't do stuff like posting something funny in a serious Q&A it's legit, IMO, as a small joke.

Derpy

^ summary of the code I currently have to work with

Shadow Wizard

lol

There are many others with that avatar, I suspect. Hard to find, but here is one:

m3_stackoverflow, netizen

10 5

!!/report meta.stackexchange.com/a/310678/152859

!!/alive?

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard Yup

Shadow Wizard

!!/coffee?

SmokeDetector

10:36 AM

@ShadowWizard brews a cup of Cappuccino for @ShadowWizard

Shadow Wizard

!!/thanks!

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard No such command 'thanks'.

Shadow Wizard

sd thanks

hey

11:24 AM

!!/welcome

SmokeDetector

@hey Welcome to Tavern on the Meta! I'm SmokeDetector, a bot that detects spam and offensive posts on the network, and posts alerts to chat. You can find more about me on the Charcoal website.

huh!

huh...

!!/welcome rene

@ShadowWizard Welcome to Tavern on the Meta @rene! I'm SmokeDetector, a bot that detects spam and offensive posts on the network, and posts alerts to chat. You can find more about me on the Charcoal website.

Shadow Wizard

11:25 AM

Funny that it's still replying lol

!!/welcome ‮

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard Welcome to Tavern on the Meta @‮! I'm SmokeDetector, a bot that detects spam and offensive posts on the network, and posts alerts to chat. You can find more about me on the Charcoal website.

Shadow Wizard

rofl

Mgetz

!!/Tea?

Shadow Wizard

t

Smokey is (caSe) sensitive

Mgetz

!!/tea?

SmokeDetector

11:28 AM

@Mgetz brews a cup of jasmine tea for @Mgetz

rene

@SmokeDetector wut?

Shadow Wizard

w00t

Shadow Wizard

12:01 PM

@SmokeDetector autoflagged

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard I hit an error while trying to run that command; run !!/errorlogs for details.

Shadow Wizard

!!/errorlogs

SmokeDetector

File "/usr/local/lib/python3.5/dist-packages/chatexchange/rooms.py", line 51, in join
return self._client._join_room(self.id)

File "/usr/local/lib/python3.5/dist-packages/chatexchange/client.py", line 281, in _join_room
self._br.join_room(room_id)

File "/usr/local/lib/python3.5/dist-packages/chatexchange/browser.py", line 255, in join_room
'msgCount': 100

File "/usr/local/lib/python3.5/dist-packages/chatexchange/browser.py", line 131, in post_fkeyed
data['fkey'] = self.chat_fkey

File "/usr/local/lib/python3.5/dist-packages/chatexchange/_utils.py", line 104, in __get__

Shadow Wizard

@SmokeDetector why

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard That's not a report.

Shadow Wizard

12:03 PM

heh, the welcome command is not in the wiki

Easter egg!

!!/invite 721

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard Too few arguments.

yagmoth555

12:21 PM

!!/welcome

SmokeDetector

@yagmoth555 Welcome to Tavern on the Meta! I'm SmokeDetector, a bot that detects spam and offensive posts on the network, and posts alerts to chat. You can find more about me on the Charcoal website.

Shadow Wizard

!!/rev

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard teward/Solar Flare 65b4278 (tripleee: Japanese Proper Case History Rule #2207 --autopull)

yagmoth555

cool it link to the last commit, 1 hour ago the last commit was done

Shadow Wizard

yup

yagmoth555

12:38 PM

Someone know if that is an accepted thing on the main site, I seen a user that after a downvote on his answer transform his answer to a community wiki's answer.

hey

AFAIK no, that's an abuse of community wiki.

yagmoth555

thanks, will flag it then

Derpy

meanwhile, somewhere outside Redmond...

hey

12:53 PM

I thought Microsoft...

yagmoth555

I like the pic of all those CRT, haha

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