Tavern on the Meta - 2018-05-28

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2:06 AM

huh, morning

Journeyman Geek

2:31 AM

→ 6 messages moved to Chimney

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I CAST GDPR AT THE DARK!

:sigh:

Journeyman Geek

Hi

Hi.

Hi?

Journeyman Geek

HIIII!

My weekend just started

2:51 AM

wooooo!

Journeyman Geek

(worked weekend day shift)

Monday's a holiday.

Journeyman Geek

I've night shift wed to fri

3 hours later…

6:10 AM

→ 4 messages moved to Chimney

@ShadowWizard I think they might be inclined to care when a 9.3 billion euro fine is on the line

@hey Hundreds of thousands of companies are late to the party

Nothing will happen to the small players just by sheer necessity. No regulating agency has the manpower to process that.

6:59 AM

Is Area 51's Discussion Zone... a forum? (probably it's the "meta", but well, "forum"?)

One of off-topic reason

> This looks like a question for a site that hasn't been created, yet. This forum is designed to discuss these proposals to create new sites. If a site is created for this subject, you might be able to ask your question there, but I have to close this as 'off topic' for this forum. Sorry about the confusion.

also, the only close reason ends with "sorry"?

Journeyman Geek

A51 is strange? ;p

I got alienated...

7:19 AM

@Discretelizard yeah, there's a phrase in Hebrew "לדחות את הקץ", dunno how to translate it.

Full Stop Punctuation

@Magisch lol no... 1) They'll never pay, and 2) Even if they will pay, it's like you'll pay $1. They got x1000 more.

It's risky only for "ordinary" companies, small and large, which can indeed fall if they pay too much.

@hey yup.

Confirmed by this answer, among many:

2

A: where on topic in this forum

The question was closed because you are in the wrong place. The question is off topic for this site (and a site for it has not been created yet). See the close reason: This looks like a question for a site that hasn't been created, yet. This forum is designed to discuss these proposals to cre...

I mean, if Robert refers to the site as a forum, so forum it is. :)

Anyone else with 10k rep here see a zombie blue number whenever reloading?

user image

Clicking it gives "There are no flags to display." and hides the number, but it's always back when reloading. What's going on??

The only thing I can think of is a message flagged inside a private room, so there is a flag but we can't see the message.

But since private rooms here are managed by SE employees, really hard to believe it's not handled yet, one way or another.

plz-delete md5 meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310644 @Bart @rene @JourneymanGeek @TravisJ

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard done the needful

When employees are testing flagging bot on private rooms? :)

7:35 AM

@ShadowWizard You sure? The GDPR was sort of intended as a giant middle finger to big data companies

They even have facilities for seizing EU property of companies due to nonpayment of fines

@Magisch at this point I'm sure in one thing: Facebook can do whatever they want and nobody can stop them.

The reason is simple: people will always keep using Facebook.

time will tell but I'm pretty sure facebook will not completly ignore gdpr

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard Nothing lasts forever

remember myspace?

Facebook is the current in-fad for social connections. It's always one other thing away from becoming the next myspace

@JourneymanGeek Facebook will, as long as there are people on Earth, and internet connection.

Journeyman Geek

7:39 AM

I disagree

Microsoft is example of other eternal company that won't go away.

Journeyman Geek

MS has been constantly reinventing itself though

The giant elephant Google?

Journeyman Geek

likewise with IBM

@hey they haven't been around that long

@JourneymanGeek on the contrary, MS is ancient dinosaur who hasn't done anything new for decades.

But they still survive.

Journeyman Geek

7:40 AM

@ShadowWizard I totally disagree

Because they're too big to fall.

@JourneymanGeek show me one thing they done which isn't copy&paste from someone else.

Journeyman Geek

they've been pivoting towards services (azure etc) from being a software product company.

@ShadowWizard that's different from not doing anything new

Working together with Linux? Open sourcing many things?

copying what others are doing is NOT doing something new.

Journeyman Geek

but that's different from being a dinosaur

7:42 AM

So, what's the topic again?

Journeyman Geek

That nothing lasts forever ;p

MS might fall some day

or be something unidentifiable (like IBM over the past, I donno century?)

Last memorable thing by IBM? I guess Watson...

oh, no, the poker bot.

Journeyman Geek

@hey not even joking about the century.

naw, they basically survive by being boring and unscrupulous ;p

IMO company can reach a "critical mass" after which it just can't be shut down. Like a country. There are only few of those in the world these days though.

Not sure about IBM, they might not be in that category.

Journeyman Geek

... dude, IBM's been around longer than most countries ;)

7:49 AM

oh, reported already:

12

Q: Chat flag notification, but no flag

It appears this bug is back. Upon refreshing any chat page (even when dumping the cache and hard reloading), a chat flag notification is displayed, but there is no chat flag.

bug chat notifications chat-flags

@JourneymanGeek time is not relevant at all.

Only money and how many people depend on the company.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard well, bit of both there

and folk can't move off IBM's services that easily in many cases

(that said, you never know, no one really expected HP to split up like it did, or SGI to basically collapse or...)

morning

morning

Shadow of the Shadow

morning

morning

8:01 AM

morning

@ShadowWizard are you suggesting that the only way we have to stop our blue team VS red team mentality is to switch to humans VS mutants?

also.... No updates about arbitration stuff, right?

I think 98% of users already forgot about it...

user391243

hey guys.

morning

user391243

As I couldn't find StackOverflow meta chat rooms, I saw one suspicious user, namely he made these posts stackoverflow.com/questions/16592979/dedicated-server-no-space/…, stackoverflow.com/questions/9961613/securing-a-dedicated-server/…

8:14 AM

@hey handling by inertia ?

user391243

they are highly downvoted and looks like spam

@Mulliganaceous yep, they are spam, thanks for reporting here

user391243

The problem is that it is affiliated with VBM, the user in question. Is that enough to consider it not spam?

user391243

is there a meta chat room in stackoverflow

@Derpy temporary, yes.

8:19 AM

District 9 is a 2009 science fiction action horror film directed by Neill Blomkamp, written by Blomkamp and Terri Tatchell, and produced by Peter Jackson and Carolynne Cunningham. It is a co-production of New Zealand, the United States, and South Africa. The film stars Sharlto Copley, Jason Cope, and David James, and was adapted from Blomkamp's 2006 short film Alive in Joburg. The film is partially presented in a found footage format by featuring fictional interviews, news footage, and video from surveillance cameras. The story, which explores themes of humanity, xenophobia, and social segregation...

@Mulliganaceous meta SO isn't an actual site, just a "sub" site of SO hence no chat rooms of its own.

@Mulliganaceous If they're affiliated, that's what makes them spam.

@Mulliganaceous if the posts are irrelevant, then they are spam regardless of the disclosure.

user391243

then if I want to discuss meta do I have to discuss here?

@ShadowWizard I believe that it is technically possible to parent a room to a meta site.

8:20 AM

@Mithrandir yeah, but was it ever done in practice?

Physics has a meta room parented to Physics.Meta.

user391243

that isn't really meta

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/197 is parented to Meta.SO.

@Mulliganaceous what isn't? This? It's the main meta.

user391243

okay. Sorry about that. You changed it to Physics.Meta not Metaphysics

user391243

8:22 AM

For the spam flag, it says "Exists only to promote a product or service, does not disclose the author's affiliation."

@Mulliganaceous by "discuss meta", could you be more specific?

@Mithrandir awesome example how bugged this is.

lol

user391243

Meta discussion means discussion about the site

user391243

including the posts and the flagging

@Mulliganaceous the answer you linked exists only to promote their products, thus it's spam regardless of disclosing author's affiliation.

user391243

8:24 AM

Thanks. I got one declined flag out of four spam flags which is really depressing

user391243

Also I got two declined flags in a row today. Even though I made around 165 helpful ones

If the answer is relevant and it links to their product, then in general they have to disclose it on the post.

user391243

Sure. I might post that on meta

user391243

For flags, can only diamond mods decline them outright?

user391243

For both "declined - a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it" results which I got recently for very low quality posts, is that moderator a diamond mod?

8:28 AM

looks like a diamond mod

though, you might misunderstood VLQ flag...

Journeyman Geek

So, here's the thing with spam flags

without knowing the flagged post, "wrong answer" shouldn't be flagged as "very low quality"

Journeyman Geek

there's a big ol 100 rep penalty so if there's a chance that the user's 'lost' or posted with potentially innocent intentions sometimes a mod might go "ehhh, I don't want to throw the book at him"

VLQ is... kind of an oddball

but people seem to assume VLQ is a "mod deletion" flag rather than a "eh, this is just complete, utter crap"

also, we also get auto VLQ flags

The point of flags isn't just acceptance, its triage

user391243

hahahaha!

user391243

so VLQ is more severe than closure flags?

Journeyman Geek

8:31 AM

you basically get a trusted user to look at it, and go "hey, this is good" or "this is bad"

user391243

or more mathematically "strictly worse"

Journeyman Geek

naw, but VLQ is... kinda hard to get right

VLQ is a flag that nobody agrees on its proper usage, and doesn't really have a use now.

Journeyman Geek

ehh. Kinda

but but

the point of most flags is to push it into some form of review these days

VLQ is a subset of NAA, so...

user391243

8:33 AM

How much helpful flags do you guys have?

Journeyman Geek

rofl

on SU, before I became a mod?

a few thousand...

3844

user image

Journeyman Geek

manually ;)

cough

smokey dosen't count IMO

only about 2k of those were autoflags

only 1800... on SO

Journeyman Geek

8:35 AM

1) I greatly dislike spammers

2) I stopped caring once I hit the marshal badge

user391243

My flagging accuracy is 91.9%

user391243

160 helpful, 10 disputed, 4 declined.

I mostly don't care about flagging accuracy since sometimes we have dispute, especially on comment flags

Journeyman Geek

it mattered more in the early days with flag weight

@JourneymanGeek I'm in 5th place network wide for holders of that Badge. You have to care abot the network stuff! ;)

Journeyman Geek

8:37 AM

@Mithrandir eh, I barely have enough time :(

and my other sites are quet

user391243

I got more disputed flags than declined one

user391243

I am actually pleased with disputed flags though. \

well, flagging needs knowledge and experience (well, actually all moderation tools need them)

Mine is 99.52%

Which is still bad for my purposes

user391243

Technically if I only count in helpful and declined ones I am at 97

user391243

8:42 AM

But I have 10 disputed ones, which make it 91. I have way more disputed flags than declined ones.

Journeyman Geek

those would be ones off the queue?

Users clicking "Looks Okay" in the Low Quality Posts will dispute a flag.

Journeyman Geek

yup

user391243

I got declined because a (diamond) mod intercepted them

9:05 AM

The "declined - a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it" only happens when an actual diamond mod reviews it

...as the " a moderator reviewed your flag" should indicate.

In certain instances you can also get flags declined from review (if there's a clear consensus against your flag) but that only reads "declined"

(only for naa/vlq flags)

9:34 AM

in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 15 mins ago, by Mithrandir

user image

@Derpy daily floofs are returning

@Mithrandir be grateful I dropped the daily bug thing because I am so nice (ok, I am lying , I simply haven't got enough time)

I...

J...

K..

Journeyman Geek

9:41 AM

user image

Ash is not an L. Try again.

@JourneymanGeek I want to pick him up and hug him

Journeyman Geek

;p

He's the cutest little senior citizen, yes he is ;p

@Mithrandir wish granted.

user image

9:59 AM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Just saw your question on meta. Good luck with that!

we can't even agree that if someone asked you how to do something under some requirement, blatantly ignoring those requirement in your post isn't providing an answer

10:20 AM

I've been successful with commenting and flagging "comment-like" answer as NAA

But for wrong answer, well... good luck with that... I've to double DV it without flagging

@hey repeat after me "this is not a problem all is fine in happy town"

this is not a problem

user image

in happy town

10:44 AM

I am really tempted to post a meta question to ask if other meta questions will receive any for of consideration anytime soon

11:15 AM

@Derpy @Sonic will close it as dupe of meta.stackexchange.com/questions/306397/…

no bug report.

Feature request?

wait... your last meta question is from almost 2 years ago. meta.stackexchange.com/questions/288425/… So not sure what you talk about? @Derpy

@ShadowWizard nope, new category - "concerns reports" (or if you prefer "we are peeved" reports)

From what I keep seeing, nagging the staff about stuff rarely ends well.

Usually they just keep ignoring it until they have a decent answer.

@ShadowWizard on that we agree. It all depends on what you mean by "not going to end well".

11:23 AM

If you do it too often you might go on the shortlist of people to ignore pings from

@Magisch how are pings related to meta questions. Also, I fear that the opposite is also true....

By which I mean, I somehow fear we will get many ex-users.

@Derpy This concept propagates to other methods of communication

e.g. a staff member might see a meta post by you and go "Not right now"

@Derpy nagging someone might make that someone irritated.

Since you don't plan to do it to someone, just to the team in general, it's not so bad. :)

11:50 AM

@Magisch again, I agree, but I am also not so sure that would be a good strategy to handle the post I had in mind. That said, it is very probable I won't post said post in the first place since right now I am not very sure I even care.

Journeyman Geek

hah

@Magisch this is why I try to be as non annoying and helpful in meta as possible :)

increases chances of my meta questions having an effect...

even inadvertantly

(also is oddly fun?)

2 hours later…

2:13 PM

sd k

2:41 PM

sd k

3:11 PM

How to turn a MLP related reply into a "should we say 'guys' when referring to a mixed gender group" argument

3:42 PM

@Derpy This is an uhhh interesting perspective

@Magisch free to downvote if you disagree, but I think that is the only reasonable answer that could be given to that question

Didn't say I disagree

I just didn't understand any of the references.

to put it simple: usually MLP characters replace words as "everyBODY" with things like "everyPONY". Since the word is often used even if the group of characters include non-pony elements... the question asked for a rule.

I am saying that probably there isn't an official rule, but I also point out that the recent episodes indicate that in-world it is probably considered "less inclusive" or even "rude" to say everypony when speaking to non-pony creatures.

1 hour later…

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:04 PM

@ShadowWizard I can't, you have my Chaos Emeralds

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:23 PM

@SmokeDetector tpu-

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:55 PM

sd tpu-

fMRI testing showed that subjects who don't agree to participate are much more likely to escape from the machine mid-scan.

6:16 PM

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

6:26 PM

@Derpy can't be rude to treat someone as a magical, friendly, creature. :)

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you can vote and call for arms here... :)

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Derpy There are always 2 sides to approach that problem from:

I’m Tibetan, I’m Buddhist and I’m the Dalai Lama, but if I emphasize these differences it sets me apart and raises barriers with other people. What we need to do is to pay more attention to the ways in which we are the same as other people.

Tweeted by DalaiLama on May 21, 2018 at 9:35 AM

@πάνταῥεῖ reminds me of 42.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Yeah, universal truth ...

Not only. More like "answer to everything".

πάντα ῥεῖ

Addresses both sites of the inclusiveness and empathy debate in weighed out and wise manner

His holiness is an incredibly wise man. I am just guessing what he's sourcing from :3

6:38 PM

I wonder what would be his opinion about downvotes, if he'll pay it any real attention.

πάντα ῥεῖ

I believe there are many equivalents to "down-votes" in outside SE life to see, and in case these are righteous.

When I get downvotes, I look for ways to improve and understand what's wrong... I think at least part of the perception problem with downvotes is that may don't want to accept that their posts may be lacking. This is pretty natural as a defense mechanism, so it's something that will always be difficult to overcome. That doesn't mean the downvote mechanics are "bad", though...

πάντα ῥεῖ

It's just a signal.

Right, but many take that signal to mean "you're awful" instead of "your question needs some work, please consider fixing it".

Explaining that somehow in a way that others will understand is what we need.

Don't think this is possible. ^

πάντα ῥεῖ

6:45 PM

Well, maybe there's some more neutral than the mathematical - symbol, which is automatically associated with negativity. Smiley faces, I don't know ...

Pretty sure many great minds worked really hard to try and find ways to do exactly that, and failed to find any. @Catija

πάντα ῥεῖ

Showing a small (quality measure) graph could clarify things better maybe.

I think that having the system give users feedback when their posts get downvoted would help. So, for example, "your question is receiving downvotes. When posts are downvoted here, that usually means X, Y, and Z. Please see our guidance [link] for information on how to improve your question."

@πάνταῥεῖ like TOMATOMETER®?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Never heard that before, but I can well imagine it looks like a bloodshed :-/

LOL

Rotten Tomatoes

Rotten Tomatoes is an American review aggregation website for film and television. The company was launched in August 1998 by three undergraduate students at the University of California, Berkeley: Senh Duong, Patrick Y. Lee and Stephen Wang. The name "Rotten Tomatoes" derives from the practice of audiences throwing rotten tomatoes when disapproving of a poor stage performance. Since January 2010, Rotten Tomatoes has been owned by Flixster, which was in turn acquired by Warner Bros. in 2011. In February 2016, Rotten Tomatoes and its parent site Flixster were sold to Comcast's Fandango. Warner Bros...

6:52 PM

user image

πάντα ῥεῖ

Saw that yes :)

Can have STACKMETER, probably. :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

Well, a small graph is counted as something scientific and neutral by most people, no?

@πάνταῥεῖ Not when it starts at 0 and slopes down..

@MartinJames Think he means don't show the accurate score, among other things

More like rating: "Good" (score of 3 or more), "Fair" (score of 0-2), "Needs improvement" (less than 0 score)

πάντα ῥεῖ

6:56 PM

@MartinJames Well, rep can't fall below one.

A few "Tim lost his keys again" misclicks would fade out anyways.

@πάνταῥεῖ score can

πάντα ῥεῖ

I well know, and likely meant show a small score graph.

Showing the accurate score?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Maybe at logarithmic scale to smooth it enough :3

Or inverse logarithm dunno, didn't test that thoroughly :-P

@πάνταῥεῖ You mean 'to hide the precipitous drop in the first 10 minutes of a bad question lifetime'

πάντα ῥεῖ

7:01 PM

There's surely some lead hysteresis that can be adjusted to "smooth" that graph.

I think that it would be difficult to devise any kind of accurate graph that would not make a bad question look really bad.

Well is this really more friendly than showing -8?

user image

@ShadowWizard I suspect not.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@MartinJames Well, an (maybe) unjustified DV given for any 1 rep user might count less against their score and can be easily overridden by subsequent upvotes. The vice versa case looks like +[10]4 or +[10]2

@ShadowWizard Me suspect neither

I see only three alternatives: show the user the score, lie to the user about the score or change SE fundamentally. I don't see a fourth alternative?

πάντα ῥεῖ

7:17 PM

Well, upvotes weigh out initial downvotes given for new site users for reasons probably, but nobody is told why exactly. A graph could simply visualize that in some way.

Before the graph wents downwards, it simply stays at the limiting 1 rep line.

Would look like a little bit "swing in" phase probably.

@MartinJames telling "it's below zero" isn't a lie

1 hour later…

πάντα ῥεῖ

8:26 PM

@ShadowWizard I like that "swing in" curvature I imagined, hope you can visualize what I mean.

2 hours later…

πάντα ῥεῖ

9:57 PM

sd tpu-

2 hours later…

user391243

11:40 PM

hey guys!

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