Tavern on the Meta

A: Are shadows underwater "wet"?

Could have worked as a koan.

Does a shadow under water share the nature of wetness?

Suraj Rao

Neither wet nor dry apparently

13

Um.... a shadow is just an area where light doesn't reach, it isn't really made of anything, unless we go down to the light level, in which case wet doesn't mean anything. So the question really is meaningless, but if I had to answer, I would say no, shadows underwater are not wet.

hey

11:25 AM

14 hours ago, by Bart

A ... coop?

apparently, RIP Coop on the Meta

the kitty now gone
none feeds the chickens anymore
the coop grows sillent

Catija

12:11 PM

Maybe it's evolved into the Sedan on the Meta.

@Catija Better than the Sudan on the Meta

Journeyman Geek

12:38 PM

Oo

I'll be interested about the answer to one of my inquiries about the GDPR

with the profile annotations and stuff. Technically that is personal data so SE would have to hand it over

Bart

12:52 PM

This whole GDPR thing is fairly confusing. Plenty of people stating they know what it's all about, yet coming up with wildly diverging answers.

@Bart thats because it's really vague and differently implemented in every member country

Bart

Oh yeah, absolutely. Everything is up for interpretation. I think it will take a fair amount of lawsuits to get a somewhat clear idea of what's really going on.

For instance I read the entire thing twice or thrice now and I've been working on it for a while and still have no real idea

and also because it is not discussed just on Law.SE, so yep, plenty of users making un-grounded claims.

@Bart I agree, as I still wonder if the lawsuits will be only against enterprise that had a leak of personal information online or not

12:56 PM

@Bart It sort of depends on if you take a strict vs. loose interpretation. The loose interpretation (and associated pre-existing case law) is pretty scary.

I had comments to that effect but they were deleted without explaination

@yagmoth555 I'm guessing no, I suspect they lawsuits will hit everybody

I suspect a whole new industry of law firms that do nothing all day but collect settlements for gdpr violations will crop up

to make it more fun GDPR doesn't have an EU wide regulator, it's all local authorities so some places will be super strict and some places will be super lax

@Mgetz I'm not sure, to enforce such policy, they need auditing in the enterprise, which can consume a lot of time and energy. They would go for case where the fact is already stated that they lost personal information online imo, but I guess we will see when it will done

@yagmoth555 not really, all they need to do is show that the enterprise didn't take GDPR seriously. That's the only burden of proof. Remember this isn't the US where it's innocent until proven guilty

The burden of proof is on the Enterprise to show they intended to comply and will comply

Losing data isn't actually a requirement to be fined

You as a company need to prove you're complying in full if they audit you

That means one day some authority may be like "show us all the gdpr related paperwork, training documents, company policy, and enforcement"

And if it's off you can be fined

1:01 PM

Yeah I think that's what a lot of people are missing, the burden is on the company to prove compliance.

GDPR is special in that it does not require a specific violation for you to be fined

at least from my understanding of the wording (IANAL this is not legal advice)

Wes

@Derpy Surely thers no strong link between physics and philosophy.

AFAI was trained all it requires is:
* A blatant violation
* Anything less than clear intent to comply
* Failing to meet compliance deadlines

@Wes Go read a quantum mechanics book... you might reevaluate that

Yeah

@Mgetz Thats my reading of it too. Kinda scary if you think about it

Wes

@Mgetz I meant btween the websites. but I.m to lazy to type dot stack exchange dot com.

1:05 PM

Realistically everybody is assuming that fines will only be put out for:
* A Blatant violation
* Willful intent to not comply
* Deliberate delaying of compliance

@user5389107 That is why my employer and most multinationals are treating it as if it had US litigiousness attached to it with European burden of proofs

we cant guess what they will do anyhow, as we can see my idea and yours is really not the same, as I agree with Bart we will need to see actual lawsuit

@yagmoth555 The problem is if it gets that far you may already be out of business

Remember getting fined is not a court of law process

20Mill Euro or 4% of global turnover whichever is higher is death to most companies

a regulatory agency can fine you $20M without a judge deciding that

1:08 PM

@user5389107 in fact a Judge may not even be able to rule on if the fine is legal

not sure on that, IANAL

> Under GDPR organizations in breach of GDPR can be fined up to 4% of annual global turnover or €20 Million (whichever is greater). This is the maximum fine that can be imposed for the most serious infringements e.g.not having sufficient customer consent to process data or violating the core of Privacy by Design concepts.

IIRC that's what happened with the google fine, the courts basically said "We can't rule on the fairness of the fine itself only on the law, and the law is fine"

Not having sufficient customer consent is enough to earn the maximum fine

wot

@user5389107 yuuup

That's going to bite a lot of firms

What does "violating the core of privacy by design concepts" that's so open you could start a jet off of it

1:10 PM

because they'll get consent for process A but forget they need to ask for explicit consent for process B

@user5389107 This was explained to me as hiding EULAs and Privacy policies behind links. You are required to explain to the user on first interaction how their data will be processed without exception.

> Privacy by design as a concept has existed for years now, but it is only just becoming part of a legal requirement with the GDPR. At it’s core, privacy by design calls for the inclusion of data protection from the onset of the designing of systems, rather than an addition. More specifically - 'The controller shall..implement appropriate technical and organisational measures..in an effective way.. in order to meet the requirements of this Regulation and protect the rights of data subjects'

So someone gets to judge if my code was sufficiently privacy oriented from the get go and if it wasn't, I get fined? What is this madness?

@user5389107 Welcome to laws written by people who don't write code

It is illegal now for your data protection measures not to be effective

So if I find a fatal flaw in AES256 encryption tomorrow I hold half of the world in contempt of GDPR?

@Mgetz also welcome to "if firms hadn't considered users personal data assets to sell for years we wouldn't need this now"

1:15 PM

@Derpy This goes back centuries, so it's not exactly a new or internet only issue

There has always been a market for data about the people buying things

true, but as with everything, globalization and web made it worse. And more noticeable.

The focus on individuals dates from the early 20th but it's not new

it made the information more easily sharable

where before Firm A and Firm B would have their own data or might share data through Firm C it wasn't something you could just buy

Feeds

2:15 PM

Wait, sorry, I got mixed up--he's actually almost 50. It's the kid from The Karate Kid who just turned 40.

3:52 PM

sd fp-

Need moar DVs, CVs and DelVotes: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310361/…

4:17 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ 404

Yeah, I saw that it was deleted for reasons of moderation. That was the effect I hoped to see.

:3

4:45 PM

I know that there are the cv-pls and delv-pls tags, and that asking for downvotes isn't really appropriate of course.

4:58 PM

it's not at -3 that it take less delete vote ?

if such, asking dv is not bad

The answer had a score of -2 and an accept.

hey

Just need to delete the question and both will be gone. The acceptance doesn't prevent question deletion.

@Mgetz The question body format could also have been improved with your edit. I missed the Improval button.

@hey Made everything looking weird though.

@πάνταῥεῖ It was a dupe and honestly I was tagging it so I could find the dupe faster

I approved your edit anyways.

rene

5:43 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ deleted by Animuson

sd f

→ 19 messages moved to Chimney

6:09 PM

@Shog9 THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Shog9

I couldn't have done it without diarrhea

6:52 PM

I see we've gotten some better answers since the first one was accepted here. It would be nice if we didn't have to scroll so far down... — Aaron Hall ♦ 12 secs ago

So... can we please have a process to unpin accepteds?

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog huh?

Shog finally implemented a bug fix I've been asking for and has been bothering me for a very long time.

Maybe... after another answer gets more than double the accepted answer's net votes?

@AaronHall Populist badge criteria?

Populist badge requires the accepted to have a minimum number of votes as well, so not exactly...

6:56 PM

@ArtOfCode Why did you decline my bug report without an explanation?

quite possibly because I'm not obligated to give an explanation

It's bad UX

or more likely because someone else already said it and I didn't need to repeat them

@ArtOfCode So you ignored my rebuttal?

s/ignored/disagreed with/

6:58 PM

I could lose my cookies, or be browsing in a private session, and then when I try to review I end up with a weird, cryptic error message that doesn't explain anything about what's going on, rather than a simple error that says I need to be logged in.

@ArtOfCode Why did you disagree with it?

We're not proctologists, err ...

I mean

it says "Not Found" pretty clearly

ok, I'm feeling like my "unpinning accepteds process" conversation has been derailed...

it's even in big red letters

@ArtOfCode How am I supposed to know from that page that I'm supposed to log in?

6:59 PM

@AaronHall not sure it happened? Did you submit a feature request?

SOUP has some fix to unpin it, might check to see what are its criteria

My strategy is to complain about it repeatedly here in Tavern on the Meta until everyone else submits feature requests for me.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer: How does a hacker in a public WIFI actually view your computer? by L Mason Biddle on superuser.com

Q: How do I get attention for old, unfixed bug reports and feature requests without official responses here on Meta?

23

I posted a question here on Meta Stack Exchange, or on a per-site meta, regarding a bug I found in the system. I got no comments, or a few comments stating that this is a legitimate bug (and not by design). However, it's been quite a long time, and no official response was ever posted there. Or,...

support meta bump

@AaronHall This isn't meta, this is meta chat nobody cares what happens here (moderation rules are still applied)

7:01 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog if you get a 404 on something you know exists... probably that's the reason

@SmokeDetector why

@Mgetz What happens in the tavern stays in the tavern?

@ArtOfCode As I've stated before, I sometimes don't have a good common sense. You can't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion.

eeeehhh

@AaronHall or the logs of the tavern until someone decides to scrape the site

7:02 PM

On a limited like-minded user base... I kinda can. Asking in chat is always a good fallback.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Common sense is not common

@Mgetz True

Well... can we all agree that pinning accepteds forever was a dumb idea?

@Mgetz We've been used to have foal pics and biddie gifs here. I am really missing these :-(