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12:30 AM
@ShadowWizard that was... never as simple as anything thought it should be
I was writing a question on superfluous things, then flu medicine worked and I went to sleep instead.
@Shog9 Would you mind taking a look at this?
Q: Replying to a chat message from a deleted user doesn't actually reply, even though UI says it should

Sonic WizardCurrently, on any chat message, there is the "reply" button that automatically inserts the required markup to reply to a certain message. This includes messages from deleted users. However, if you use the button to insert the reply code on a message that was posted by a user with a deleted chat ...

Medicine worked, leaving only superous things to write about...
@SonicWizard I'm pretty sure that's not a bug
@Shog9 Did you look at the two ways of fixing that?
12:36 AM
@SonicWizard have you verified that a reply to a message by a user who isn't deleted remains a reply after the user is deleted?
I believe it does
Well, let's test it
I'm not going to delete my account for science; I've already done that
Hello. My dedication to science is much greater than that of Sonic
@WilliamthePleaser I, for one, appreciate your dedication
12:37 AM
The death of a sock.
@WilliamthePleaser You're Dr. Eggman
I mean, English is not my first language, but what is with the redundant words: a user temporarily suspended for 10 years. Does that temporarily has to be there? A user can just be suspended for 10 year, full stop. Then there is this Stackoverflow valued assosicate #00abc, I mean associates are usually valued, but to say something is value, there must be other things that are not valued. Are there unvalued associates? So 'valued' is a bit superfluous ...
just like say there are 7 billion best human beings on earth.
A: Why is it specially required to mention "temporarily suspended" in ban messages when all suspensions are temporary only?

Sonic WizardThe intent there is to make it more explicit that the suspension is temporary, that we don't hold grudges, and that the user is welcome to participate constructively after the suspension expires. The linked blog post there does a good job of explaining that. In my opinion, if the word "temporari...

@Shog9 Are you going to delete their chat profile?
Q: Saying that a user is in "top 100%" isn't nice

user259867Colin is here for the badges, not reputation. And that's okay. Why rub it in by saying he's not even in top 99% of users? It's like saying "he graduated in top 100% of his class". I suggest not showing percentages above 50%.

12:40 AM
:6912351 took a minute
@SonicWizard so, the reply prior to deletion preserves the name at the time of the reply. The reply post deletion records only the message ID (as you describe in your bug report)
then there is this welcome newbie more blog ... marginalized groups is somewhat tagged on ... sure, be nicer and more tolerant to new users, but what the heck are marginalized groups??
and in what ways are they discriminated against?
@Shog9 If you reply to a deleted user but haven't refreshed the page to reflect the deletion, it just looks like a normal ping
@Shog9 I had to refresh the page to get the username to switch to the number on the latter reply.
12:43 AM
@SonicWizard Actually, it didn't link, though. Hovering didn't highlight William's last message.
So then why show the reply button on messages from deleted users, if it's not possible to reply to them?
@Catija ...with the exception of the highlight. The reply arrow isn't shown (the same with a normal ping)
@Shog9 Why is that?
beats me!
@Shog9 So you don't know why the reply button is shown?
...when it's not possible to reply?
Chat does a lot of weird state things... sometimes flag indicators get stuck... sometimes changing your UN or profile pic requires refresh...
(even after the profile's refreshed from parent)
@TelKitty cause we hope people come back as better people in a decade.
12:48 AM
:6912351 The code on the left was generated by clicking "reply" on a message from a deleted user
@SonicWizard because special casing things sucks ;p
@JourneymanGeek Why are replies to deleted users special-cased? Why not just show it as a reply, just like all other replies?
no, that users are deleted is a special case
@JourneymanGeek I thought you said special cases suck?
@JourneymanGeek they usually come back on another account instead ...
12:50 AM
Yes... for example, if a user is deleted, we can't move their comments to chat at all.
That's exactly what I said
special cases suck
I didn't just say "adjusting things for special cases suck"
So, @SonicWizard Easy solution for your comments moved to chat problem... delete your site account after every comment.
.... ;p
@Catija make account, get 50 rep (or make use of appropriate special casing for posts), then quit?
Hey, that's what you get when you use vice grips as a hammer.
That sounds worse than my favourite trolls MO ;p
12:52 AM
@JourneymanGeek He's already got the association bonus.
@JourneymanGeek Post a "trivial answer" that gets auto-converted to a comment, then edit the comment
@Catija ooh, that's abusive. And even more special casey
and I didn't think of that
Speaking of that problem...@Shog9 Can you please take a look here? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309624/…
@JourneymanGeek Difficult to catch.
A: Allow me to delete my own comments if they get moved to chat

Shog9You can delete your own comments if they get moved to chat. Often the moderator moving them will do it for you, without you even having to ask. ...of course, you can't delete the chat messages that result from the move. That'd break the conversation and defeat the whole purpose of moving them to...

1:01 AM
let's have a discussion on whether stricter chat moderation will work ...
I'm already having over elsewhere over how everyone is a chat mod ;p
@rene Pinging you because you were involved in the complaint and in my question (above)
think with logic ... like some kind of physics experiment, but with human nature and based on previous evidence
@Shog9 Final question for you to look at: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309169/…
(Mostly historical)
@SonicWizard yeah, it's been entirely too long; I don't recall anymore
If I had to guess, it'd be that looking up the site name is a lot slower than it's worth
1:20 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Changing colors of raster images in Illustrator by BOBthebilder on graphicdesign.SE
The Poisons Standard March 2018, which, under section 2 above consists of the Standard for the Uniform Scheduling of Medicines and Poisons (the Standard, or the SUSMP), is made under paragraph 52D(2)(b) of the Therapeutic Goods Act 1989, and is a compilation of decisions made under section 52D of the same Act.  The SUSMP should be read in conjunction with the Scheduling Policy Framework (SPF) of the Australian Health Ministers' Advisory Council.
same scheduling for poison and medicine ... that's why I like to learn new things
2:15 AM
@ShadowWizard Wheels of justice and all:
A: Is it possible to dispute penalty box or at least to know the reason for being penalized?

Jon EricsonI looked into this and discovered your previous account was deleted in a way that would automatically suspend any new accounts you create. Usually this method is reserved for mindless spammers and trolls. Since that did not seem to be the case, I've unsuspended your account. I can also restore po...

They turn slowly, and occationally bounce over portholes? ;p
2:52 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Windows Update fails with code 80244019 by Amanda Edmunds on superuser.com
@SmokeDetector So what makes them spam? The link has what appears to be actual information on first glance
@SmokeDetector kind of suspicious if an unregistered user posts a link to a Q&A rival instead of quoting the content from them...
@NobodyNada Oops, meant to post that in CHQ
@SonicWizard Which was your previous incarnation?
I'm probably not around here enough to give you a good indication, though
3:09 AM
@Undo Back in 2013-14
@hey errorsolutions.tech is a known spammer on SU, often with the user accounts using female names.
nailed it. like if we posted an answer there with links to SE...
@SonicWizard you're exactly the same ;p
Lets leave it at that?
My behavior is exactly the same?
come to think of it, I have never heard a case on external sites where a user spamming links to SE?
3:13 AM
@JourneymanGeek You think I'm still as immature as I was back then?
Well, since you said it? Yup!
Are we that civilized? (or elitist :p)
The constant need for attention - like your username around then
Just that you graduated from bugging mods, to CMs ;p
(but hey, you said it, not me)
I just wanted people to solve the puzzle
@JourneymanGeek Give me a few other modern examples.
Solving a puzzle should be fun, but bug reports/anomaly in the system, not sure if it's fun...
3:17 AM
@SonicWizard see "IT CAN WAIT"
or various complaints about pinging
Maturity is both self awareness, and awareness of others.
She didn't say she felt bothered by that ping
See? that's what I mean by a lack of awareness of others
People don't always (need to?) spell out what they feel about things explicitly
"I'm going to bed" = I need me time.
Such a waste of time!!! I have put a camera near my chickens, and I have been watching my chickens on my macbook for the past 20 minutes ...
@JourneymanGeek Any other examples?
Well, if people need to be aware for you, how will you be self aware?
3:24 AM
@TelKitty I did watch a 24-hour turtle livestream for about... 2 hours...
was it slow?
I bet it beat the rabbit stream.
Needs A.I. cam that reduces the frame rate and increases the resolution quality when filming slow animals
Probably true
When the only tool you have is an AI....
3:33 AM
... make lemonade!
@TelKitty Have you considered wiring it through a LAN connection, without going through the Internet?
it's actually working through wifi network
@TelKitty Are you using 5 GHz, 802.11ac equipment?
@JonEricson As long as you make sure not to cross the two streams.
Never cross a rabbit. Those beasts are ornery.
3:40 AM
@SonicWizard probably not ... for such a low resolution, maybe 2G is fine ...
@JonEricson I never cross a rabbit, they usually jump away even before I get close.
@Catija How fast are the Internet speeds over at Pickle? Are they as fast as the UT campus's 250+ Mbps over Wi-Fi, and 900+ over Ethernet?
@Catija And that's over Wi-Fi?
3:44 AM
@SonicWizard We don't use wifi.
So over Ethernet, then.
@Catija Is there a cap for data allowance?
@SonicWizard At work? No. Why would there be? We have to sort of... do our jobs. This isn't our personal accounts, we're not logging in through UTDirect.
Ah, I see.
If you go to PCL and use the computers, those don't count towards your limits, if I remember...
@Catija Don't know about that, but I know that's true at the CS labs (as you log on to those with separate accounts)
Someone got in trouble with the CS department because he tried to evade the data limit by piping his connection through a CS lab machine
3:47 AM
@SonicWizard What are the limits?
@NobodyNada 10 GB per week complimentary, or you can pay to extend it to 50 per week or 1000 per week for $22 and $60 for the full school year.
That allowance is special for dorm residents, however. Non-dorm residents are charged a lower rate for additional allowance over the cap, but their default cap is just 1 GB per week
@SonicWizard Hmm...that's a pretty good deal
Yep...paying for a higher allowance is definitely worth it.
Do they roll over? If you use 5GB one week, do you get 15GB the next?
3:52 AM
@user1114 while true - Its worth internalising the good points that could come out of these things. While in a perfect world, people would post decent questions and just judge stuff on their own merits, its not a perfect world.
@SonicWizard Do you still think your comment on my answer is necessary? Calling SOBotics and Heat Detector the same thing is like calling Charcoal and Smoke Detector the same. One is the group of people/chat room, the other is the actual program they create... and in the case of SOBotics, they have dozens of other projects that they do.
@SonicWizard That seems a bit annoying; can you buy extra data for just one week or do you have to go for the whole year?
@Catija Sorry, I hadn't checked my SE notifications. Deleting. (Cast a flag on it if you want a helpful flag)
@NobodyNada Non-dorm residents can buy for just a semester, but dorm residents can only buy for the whole year.
Okay. Still seems reasonable, but I can imagine it being annoying a couple of times. No idea why I'm asking so many questions about it :p
@NobodyNada That is just so typically me
@Catija Are you still being woken up at night, if I may ask?
4:04 AM
@JourneymanGeek It may have some positive outcomes here. But I do not think the dynamics are healthy, either at Stack or at Google.
@user1114 Is that a likely problem for SE? From the outside, looks like 100% liberal environment. The sole employee who would voice conservative opinions at times (Ben Collins) left several years ago.
I don't want to speak too much to people's specific beliefs.
But there's a pretty broad range in what one might call "liberal".
@bro any movement that's directly caused by a guideline that comes from authority is not a liberal movement by definition
There is something to be admired in the platforms both companies give their employees, but as everybody becomes more politicized year over year, the risks grow.
4:10 AM
My impression, very vaguely, is that Google's leadership realized a couple years ago that they were letting things get a bit too far out of hand, and gently pushed back a bit, but it's still pretty ridiculous for a corporate environment.
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad NS for domain in body, bad NS for domain in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, +4 more: nutrahealthtrimsite.com/purefit-keto/ by Bantiqwik on puzzling.SE
@bro And there's also a big gap between "this is how I decide to vote" and "this is my ideology which must inform every action I take in my life".
I didn't know him personally, but I will very foolishly speculate just from what I've seen on Twitter, that the now-departing employee Matt Sherman may not be the type to endorse the problematic ideological framing we have seen.
SE probably did a bunch of things in good faith of promoting something positive, but if many of your users are telling you 'wtf are you doing, your action seems to be derailed from your goal ... our common goal', and such scenario has happened twice or more, maybe ... just maybe think in retrospect - do I need to do such a thing in the first place, is it superfluous??
no, drawing 4 legs on a snake does not make the snake better than a snake
4:19 AM
@user1114 whatever google doing in this aspect will be a losing cause, mark my words
I am pretty supportive of Google's upper management.
I would too if I had their salary
what do you think the root cause of all this is?
They typically seem sane/thoughtful/reasonable. The company's issues are mostly elsewhere.
@TelKitty The Internet.
4:22 AM
It was a bad idea.
We need to get rid of it.
It was an interesting experiment, but the results are clear: humanity can't handle it.
Somebody go pull the plug.
internet is a technology, it is not the cause
4:23 AM
@user1114 There's an alternative though: keep the internet, get rid of humanity. Or at least of human-like interactions. Hence, the original SO model.
Seriously, I think that keeping the human nature of participants on a very short leash is necessary for SO to exist.
IMO whatever google and SE doing is relieving the symptom not rectifying the root problem. Then there is the question, can this effort be used to reach a more productive goal?
Like implementing CommonMark. I wish.
Watching newest SO comments turns out to be more productive for finding awful questions than rude/offensive comments.
4:36 AM
short leash doesn't sound very welcoming ...
'welcome to Stackoverflow, relax while I put that short least around your neck ...'
@bro 2 birds 1 stone?
but yeah... awful questions...
Q: What's needed to build an antithief moving softair machine gun?

marco sboniI would like to know exactly what I need to buy to make an anti-thief moving softair machin gun? I would like to use neural networks on a working python shell which detects people, and if not unlocked by me on application, it's on "kill" mode and shoots to everyone it's detecting. I don't know an...

@hey Guy claims he's the inventor of Coca-Cola
Make sense, he certainly needs an anti-thief moving soft air machine gun to protect their Coca-Cola...
5:17 AM
> The revision history says it was this other badger. The other badger also explained their reasons in the comments. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/367107
5:44 AM
@JourneymanGeek now deleteable
there, you have my axe vote
6:11 AM
@rene Writing an answer to that question
Kabong. But I'm afraid we pissed him off...
@user1114 ho
@rene Never mind, I'm not too experienced with the modern Stack Overflow to write an answer (it's changed a lot since 2013-14)
1 hour later…
7:33 AM
@JonEricson thanks a ton! Totally non trivial you stepped in. Personally I'm bit sad I was right all along (i.e. big mod mistake was done, and almost covered), I had a feeling this wasn't the ordinary rant we sometimes get on MSE. Personally I lost any trust in that site moderation (they're all in this together), luckily I'm not part of it and don't see myself becoming part, so no big deal. Just hope other sites have better moderators who are decent enough to admit when they make mistakes. </end>
cough Hinduism.SE cough
(wow, I was really coughing when typing that...)
Ohh, you're still with that cold? @hey
@hey I take it that some aren't happy with that site moderation as well?
@ShadowWizard Not some.
7:37 AM
@ShadowWizard :(
@ShadowWizard people make mistakes
and sometimes we make some pretty hard decisions on the spot
@JourneymanGeek doesn't help that a lot of it isn't transparent or auditable by the community
Hopefully it won't happen again - and I'm pretty sure we'll have the lessons learnt shared with other mods
@user5389107 sure.
unless you have high rep AND know where to look you can't really find out about most things
heh, I've heard the same arguements from mods about some other things
@NogShine all??
7:40 AM
@user5389107 personally that's why I'm usually happy to explain any moderator decisions in the appropriate fora.
(MSE, MSU, chat, whatever)
even with high rep and knowledge of the tools you guys use (pieced together from over a year of casually reading meta) I still can't find out a lot of what went down in any given case
@JourneymanGeek of course! But if they don't admit they made them when called out, that's a problem and they don't fit as moderators.
@ShadowWizard Not all too. Most of them. They have different reasons.
@NogShine oh
@ShadowWizard which site?
7:40 AM
@ShadowWizard ehh. I don't know all of what happened
@TravisJ Drupal
and the internal discussion
Hm, not familiar
for the best, probably...
cause I literally do actually make sure other mods know when I do stuff that could backfire in my face
and while the OP was probably justifiably angry....
7:41 AM
Imo there is no excuse for making this kind of mistake and not admitting it when called out on it
Well I am not sure what I could have done, so yeah perhaps for the best. My best efforts tend to be made in pleas to the community on meta. And... that's about it.
I'd rather not try to have pictchforks and torches
@JourneymanGeek ... twitter, reddit, askquestions.tech ...
@JourneymanGeek user made it appear like their account is "shared" by several company employees. This resulted in their account being destroyed (like spammer), and when they tried to make new account where they had "normal" bio (account isn't really shared), they found it's auto suspended for two weeks, so posted in MSE. The rest you can read there. It all boils down to moderator treating 700+ rep user as some crappy spammer.
@rene heh. as long as its not my blog.
7:44 AM
fair enough ;)
Drupal hasn't had mod elections in a while though, right? This mod must have been in place for a while. (totally speaking without knowing anything about what happened). Seems surprising that such a mistake would be made like that (not that I really know what happened).
@TravisJ the mod who took part in the MSE post is not the one who made the mistake.
He never said who is.
accidents are one-click away ..
@ShadowWizard Which i understand. Thing is, now that we know there was a mess up, and that the CMs are on it - I'm not sure there's much point in going after the guy who messed up publically yet
@rene ah, not that easy.
@ShadowWizard I guess it's morally the same as reporting users under 13
> I spotted a user who is under 13. What should I do?
> You don't have to do anything. Users and moderators are not legally responsible for underage users and are under no obligation to report them to us.
7:45 AM
Oh, I didn't even read the MSE post. That was all just conjecture. I was kind of alluding to the fact that moderators seem to very rarely make mistakes on that level.
I do wonder if destroy users should have a second person confirming
@TravisJ we very rarely destroy non obvious spammers ;)
@JourneymanGeek of course, that was never my intention. Just ranting about bad mods. :)
@JourneymanGeek at least if they have non-zero positive posts
(sometimes on purpose cough)
damn cold
7:46 AM
iirc that user had 700 rep
@user5389107 yup
Why can a moderator spam destroy someone with 700 rep anyways?
Is there a use case for that?
@user5389107 I'm saying it was a mistake, it was acknowledged, and ...
so the mod had to delete some of the posts to reduce to 500, then destroy.
There is an xkcd for that
7:47 AM
@user5389107 ehh, in theory it could be a very smart spammer with socks
but I donno
I'm not the guy on the spot at the time, making the decision
@JourneymanGeek That would be the point where getting a second mod to confirm would be advantageous, don't you think?
@user5389107 utterly no qualms for that for non zero rep users.
idk I wasn't there, but this reeks looking at it from the outside
Yeah, but sometimes there is like an onslaught of spammers that need to be nuked in succession, right?
I actually welcome any counter checks.
@TravisJ tbh, I miss most of those cause smokey tends to get to them before I do
7:48 AM
Totally agree that when destroying account which had at some point over 500 rep, second opinion would be needed, yes.
I mean, that is comforting, if not slightly amusing that the bot just gets there first.
it went wrong once in I dunno how many times. It gets sorted out. The system works. Sent flowers to the impacted user. pr0blam solved
I THINK there's a deletion option too
lemme go check on aibo
Yeah, I think that the 500 rep requiring a second opinion could be a good idea.
7:49 AM
@ShadowWizard why 500? why not 100? or 200? :)
Who'll get the pleasure to start such request? ;)
@hey because 500 is the threshold, above that mod can't destroy an account.
7:50 AM
@ShadowWizard Were you a moderator once?
@NogShine not on SE
its public
A: What is the difference between a deleted user and a "destroyed" user?

Grace Note"Deleted" users have their display name denormalized, their account deleted, and all of their negatively rated posts deleted (except on meta sites). Anything not deleted is retained with their "ghost" user. This is primarily for scenarios like a user requesting their account be deleted, or multip...

I was mod on some forums, and "super mod" on one forum.
You can delete a user if their rep's over 500 still.
7:52 AM
@user5389107 indeed, and the smell reached my nose. :)
@NogShine I kinda think part of the problem on hinduism is the users too. Religion is a tough topic, and some folk just like the drama.
@Shog9 dunno... but fact is that it caused me to review less. Maybe others aren't affected, you can probably run some stats to see.
(i.e. reviews before new top bar and new review icon logic, and before)
@ShadowWizard also, eh, I also suspect that some of us ignore some specific rules because we feel it makes the site better
@JourneymanGeek Yes. That is true. Some users want only mods to change and never try to change themselves and check what is wrong with themselves.
We have a few company support reps turn up, mostly to answer support questions on their product.
7:56 AM
@JourneymanGeek like Dexter? ;)
So - its worth remembering that the mod judged his decision was alright by the letter of the rules
not the spirit
@JourneymanGeek what decision? That corporate account should be treated as spammer, ignoring all their positive contribution to the site?
Well, the terms of service does say an account is supposed to belong to an individual
That's a slippery slope
7:59 AM
Counter example: bots.
Well, most bots are alt accounts
So an individual can have multiple accounts.
Well, I have 2.
(I use the alt on untrusted PCs)

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