Tavern on the Meta

user315433

00:01

@hichris123 How do you think people perceive your 6,046 downvotes? Were you thinking about that when casting them?

Journeyman Geek

More or less - I'd like people to, well, be less chatty.

That reduces people being mean to each other, and increases signal

and everyone wins.

bjb568

Ethnicity as a dichotomy is a European thing.

Journeyman Geek

except the guy who MUST say thank you

hichris123

@bro Fair point, but I'm not sure how you make that nicer; at some point, you have to have some indication of quality.

user315433

In general, it's a lot easier to preach kindness to SO users when you're not active on SO.

bjb568

00:04

Let's apply some kindness and welcome to the CV queue…

How many total posts are in that now, including the hidden ones?

hichris123

@bro There is some truth to that, I think the rudeness is a symptom of the quality problem.

The users who are most active see the worst posts and become less willing to help out those who struggle.

user315433

@bjb568 Too many, because Too Broad is being used as super-downvote on "lazy" posts.

bjb568

@hichris123 It's about time. If LQ posts were rare enough, there wouldn't be a need to be snarky and quick about DV+CV and move on. But there are so many of bad posts because it's so quick and easy to make them that the system left to deal with them can't be welcoming.

user315433

One can be quick without being snarky. Snark doesn't help anyone at all...

bjb568

We reached the point where we don't have enough time to moderate SO to the standards of β sites long ago.

user315433

00:08

FR: disable pasting in comment box.

bjb568

Snark doesn't help anything, but it's caused by the inability to spend time educating new users.

hichris123

I think this is a good example of the problem:

@chrisz get your point, but in the context of stackoverflow where even starting the question with "Hi" is considered a waste of space/time/resources, having to "prove" that I did my homeworks looks exceedingly silly. I have a 10 years experience with Matlab and I'm migrating to Python. Having to prove that I'm not lazy is almost an insult... Anyway... if these are the rules I'll stick to them — Luca Amerio 22 mins ago

There is a legitimate reason for showing your work: it avoids XY problems and helps solve problems faster (and avoids the truly lazy).

But making it a "requirement" also turns away users who likely did attempt to do their research but found nothing, and thus didn't mention it as they didn't see the point.

user315433

00:26

Who says you can't begin a question with "Hi" on SO? Hi I'm a new in Java

jadarnel27

I'm responding to the brown signal, @ShadowWizard.

\o

user202362

I take a grudge - why there is so little medicine that directly heals people rather than helps your body to heal itself? Medicine helps, but mainly we expect our bodies to heal itself ..

user315433

The medicine is like "I see you want to get healthy, but what have you tried yourself?"

user310756

user310756

@TelKitty more foal spam and still no foal

user202362

00:38

@YvetteColomb I like how your two foals are trying to eat from each others buckets :p

user202362

Got a flu, can't speak (in real life)

user202362

Flu is like your body's immune system's routine maintenance - to have a very deep test every a couple of year the minimum to see it still works. Like some kind of military drill of your body.

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb that foal looks adorably scruffy.

is he going to get bigger? or is he going to be a wee bit runty for life ?

Shog9

00:57

@YvetteColomb Looks so green... Not at all like how I picture Australia.

You sure you're not in NZ?

user202362

Coastal Australia is very green

user202362

it's the middle that has less trees, but even the middle has some grasses, just few trees

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, pattern-matching email in answer: How do I apply for a no interest loan from Social Security Admin? by Josef Lewis on money.SE

TylerH

Hi CMs; any chance we could get a general discussion thread for the recent blog post (on MSE or MSO)? The few that have sprouted up on Meta by users are... well... a bit pointed and narrow in scope. I have a few things I would like to actually address/ask about but since comments are closed and there's no associated meta post... I've come away having something of a bad experience with it.

Jon Ericson

@TylerH Feel free to post one. (I personally don't want the pings associated with that, unfortunately.)

TylerH

01:12

eh... the problem is I only want to ask about "We’re planning to test a new “beginner” ask page that breaks the question box into multiple fields" and whether it's taking any cues from meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/358600/…

Shog9

@TylerH Lot easier to discuss specific critiques than to wade through a grabbag. So, y'know... Feel free to post specific critiques.

TylerH

And posting a new thread about just that feels a bit like... just repeating myself from the first thread

Shog9

so my tire was a lost cause; one nail went through the sidewall

which means I have a new tire

and a growing pile of old ones

you might not think a pile of old tires is all that useful

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

people voluntarily nailling tires

yagmoth555

@YvetteColomb nice picture ! Yes really green, still have snow where I live :) and my local meteo still play trick on me, from tomorrow to saturday they announce around 15cm of snow

Shog9

01:14

but a tire looks sufficiently like an O

a BIG O

to be useful in certain cases...

16

Q: Typo on https://api.stackexchange.com/docs/create-filter

In https://api.stackexchange.com/docs/create-filter When the size of the parameters being sent to this method grows to large, problems can occur. This method will accept POST requests to mitigate this. 'to' should be 'too': When the size of the parameters being sent to this method g...

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

typO

TylerH

@Shog9 they were really useful in the Black Hawk Down movie

Shog9

never watched that

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

I'd wager a full tire is much more efficient than a big S to bash people' head with

TylerH

It's really good if you enjoy war movies

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

01:16

is it deadpool good?

Shog9

I take it that's the new standard for all movie types?

TylerH

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Depends

They're different kinds of movies

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

well, deadpool did set some kind of new standards, in my limited pool of movies :)

the meta is strong in deadpool

TylerH

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I'm guessing you will be seeing Deadpool 2 soon after it releases, then?

user310756

@Shog9 we're right on the coast - less 1 km from the sea - so very lucky - most places are in drought

Shog9

01:19

:thumbsup:

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

@TylerH I guess so too :)

user310756

@TelKitty I have such a cute video of them - he keep pushing her out of the bucket (him being the little one - now named Noddy)

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

back to the drama at hand; I'm still not quite sure how to approach thinking about all the twitter bubble about SO

user310756

@JourneymanGeek he will be on the small side maybe 13 2 hands high 4 inches to one hand. He will be the smallest horse I have. he's a darling little thing and let's me pat him now

user310756

@yagmoth555 I've seen the snow twice. I can't imagine how you live in it

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

01:22

from my relatively new experience with folks on twitter, nobody is really strong on reading what's actually written; creating shitstorms out of parts of tweets (which are by definition too short to imply a thought) seems to be the national sport

so... I'm not sure what kind of weight I should give to people who will not read more than two sentences before branding someone.

user310756

@TelKitty well if it's any help - I don't think the foal is coming yet - I think it may even continue for another couple of weeks. Besides we will have babies around for a while, so hopefully you feel better soon and you can meet them. When this foal is born I'll def come to Syd and see you xox

user310756

@Shog9 NZ is sooo incredibly beautiful

user310756

anyway I'll be back with more foal spam tomoz :)

Journeyman Geek

@FélixGagnon-Grenier mostly true

Shog9

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Twitter was made for...

fisking

Noun: fisking (plural fiskings)

A rebuttal to an article or blog made by quoting its content in sections and refuting each section individually.
fisking f, m (definite singular fiskinga or fiskingen, uncountable)
fishing
(in sports) to waiting around the opponents' goal waiting for a pass...

this is by far my favorite onebox

also, hat-tip @Jon for helping me to remember the term

Félix Gagnon-Grenier

01:30

I am whelmed by all the bad pun (voluntarily singular) and real life sports situations involved in that one box.

oh-wait it's absolutely not clear from that sentence^ that the bad pun is actually originating from me, is it?

user315433

@Shog9 Old tires can be used to illustrate What a meta is for.

user202362

@YvetteColomb looking forward to see your skinny foal growing into a tall, well fed horse (gives strong sense of satisfaction :D)

user315433

02:18

@SmokeDetector gone

user202362

02:38

the timing of this diversity in tech thing is interesting - right around when an peddler (amazon) overtakes a true high tech leader (microsoft) in monetary term

hey

03:26

oh god so chatty!

(lemme read the transcript ;p)

FR: Instead of a strict up/downvote, we need more reactions to the post.

Journeyman Geek

....

ewww

...

actually, not that bad an idea ;p

You should FR that.

NobodyNada

IMO it'd make voting a lot more noisy

hey

trade comment noise with voting noise

NobodyNada

Right now, voting is super-focused and it works really well as a quality control mechanism. Adding more options would make voting less useful and more chatty

Do we really care about the difference between 👍 and 🎉 when voting?

Journeyman Geek

Well not as a vote replacement

stick them under the votes, have 4-5 options, and then have an option to turn them off... oh wait.

trade comment noise for random emoji reaction noise.

hey

03:41

~~too bad there's no "Thanks!" emoji...~~ the "thumbs up" should be enough

bjb568

03:51

Maybe add an optional dialogue when DVing that has canned site-specific DV reasons that get shown to the OP.

like "lacks a MCVE"

Journeyman Geek

that's been asked

People are going to react badly to DVs anyway.

bjb568

Hide post score for new OPs unless it goes above a certain threshold.

Journeyman Geek

also suggested

but that simply means they don't realise what's wrong with their posts

or that anything is wrong

bjb568

show them the DV reasons, but not the "-3".

Journeyman Geek

to me, the hard part is "getting how things work"

for me, it was a week or so of lurking

But ain't nobody got time for that

bjb568

03:54

Actually, I don't think showing negative scores on questions is really useful for anybody except established users.

Votes are useful for comparing answers.

Journeyman Geek

As an established user, I don't care that much

bjb568

That too.

Journeyman Geek

so might as well suggest they hide it totally

but that still dosen't fix the underlying problem

bjb568

Hide it unless the user explicitly requests the +/- score thing and has the privilege to do so.

It at least fixes the "I feel personally attacked by that number" problem.

NobodyNada

@bjb568 I would not like that -- it sort of defeats the purpose of having votes if we don't show them

bjb568

03:55

That might be good enough to keep users on the site long enough to be able to read more guidance text.

@NobodyNada What's the purpose of voting on questions?

If it's for determining if it's useful in a list of questions on the homepage or in search, it seems to just be a proxy for view count, number of answers, or sum of votes on positively scored answers.

Journeyman Geek

In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
"What are you doing?", asked Minsky.

"I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied.

"Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky.

"I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said.

Minsky then shut his eyes.

"Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher.

"So that the room will be empty."

At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

NobodyNada

@bjb568 The text that appears when you hover over the upvote button is "This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear." The whole point of voting is to indicate to future visitors whether a question is worth looking at.

hey

Sure, for new users, when getting downvoted to below 0, replace it with "Uh oh!" instead.

Journeyman Geek

If you do not see the downvotes, are the downvotes still not there?

bjb568

@NobodyNada But future visitors don't care about the question, they want their problem solved.

Journeyman Geek

03:58

Does it fix the underlying issues?

user202362

chat for pets :x

NobodyNada

@bjb568 And voting indicates whether the question is likely to solve their problem

bjb568

Questions don't solve anything, or at least, they aren't meant to.

Voting on answers is a lot more useful for that.

Journeyman Geek

are we essentially saying - there's no point in voting on questions?

Catija

There is... if there's no voting on questions, you're removing the ability of a huge part of a site to earn reputation.

bjb568

04:00

It might still be useful to have voting for a) reputation, b) roomba, c) disputing/declining VLQ flags.

Catija

They're already penalized, only getting half the rep... taking it away entirely is cruel.

NobodyNada

meta.stackexchange.com/a/1889/258777 .

bjb568

If a question gets like +2 or higher score, it'd make sense to unhide the score from OP to show an incentive for asking good questions.

… or unhide it from everyone at that point.

Catija

I don't really see why it should be limited to +2... I don't completely agree with the "don't show negative numbers" but I think there should be a limit... -2 or -4... if they have no indication that their question is problematic, they will have less incentive to fix it... additionally, when they do start getting upvotes, it will be confusing to them why the score doesn't increase above zero.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija I was being hyperboleic

Catija

04:03

I know.

bjb568

I don't think showing 0 for negatives is good, because it's confusing and wrong. It could be blank or something.

Journeyman Geek

Or maybe auto close and lock votes at some point if you want dv mitigation

hey

Come to think of it, I guess replacing it with "uh oh!" is a better idea. Like a real child who hasn't learnt how cruel the world is [citation needed], they will be taught with more neutralized emotion than those adults. (a warning indicator from a bad response: "uh oh" vs the real bad response itself: negative score)

bjb568

And the feedback of "you should improve your question" should be in specific guidance text, rather than a number that seems insulting to them. So when a DVer selects a canned reason from a dialogue, a closed-question-like banner appears for only OP, maybe with the ability to check off "I think I've fixed this" to make it go away, potentially to a queue.

Catija

That said, law of unintended consequences... if someone knows that their DV won't be visible, it may make them more likely to cast it? That's sort of why I mentioned at some point not acting on downvotes past -4, which is enough to get it off the front page.

Journeyman Geek

04:05

@hey My sarcasm meter just exploded...

bjb568

I don't think having more DVs is that bad if they're hidden and the OP is likely at 1 rep anyway.

Journeyman Geek

I wonder why...

hey

and as always, those are only shown to the OP, not other users.

@JourneymanGeek yay? :)

Catija

@bjb568 It does, actually. If a question is actually improved, more downvotes require more upvotes to actually get the score positive. The pile on downvotes can get pretty bad, I understand.

Here on MSE it can be ... awful.

bjb568

I guess that's true.

hey

04:07

And it's easier to explain: you have many "uh oh" questions, too many of them will lead to question ban.

bjb568

Maybe question downvotes should expire after a certain amount of time if the question appears to be well-received after the DV is cast.

It really seems like DV is a soft delete vote since both are saying "I don't want to see this" and both make it less seen.

hey

@bjb568 the same for upvotes should expire if it got closed as off-topic.

bjb568

I agree with that.

Catija

The complication is making it simple to implement... something that might work is something similar to what they do with migrated posts... any post that's negatively scored when it's migrated, is reset to 0... they could do the same thing with closed questions... when the question is reopened, it's reset to 0.

bjb568

That makes sense.

Catija

04:10

This seems like it could be (from a non-dev perspective) super easy to do.

It also makes closing the question actually helpful to the question.

It stays negative until it's edited and reopened, reopening clears the downvotes.

NobodyNada

@Catija Sounds reasonable to me

hey

uhh... reset to 0? certainly that shouldn't work for meta posts too?

Catija

No, just main... and probably not MSE.

bjb568

Meta's a whole different story.

Catija

Though, maybe on MSE... for certain types of questions - support, bug reports.

That would probably take a bit more investigation.

bjb568

04:13

Yeah, it just wouldn't work for when votes are supposed to represent agreement with an opinion.

Catija

Right. And that's largely only on FR and Discussions.

Journeyman Geek

MSE has an odd dynamic

Catija

I'm sort of scared to post a FR about this ... I know a lot of people really don't like having their votes "invalidated"...

bjb568

Should the reputation from the votes be invalidated too?

Catija

I'd say the entire voting should be reset (if the net score is negative).... upvotes and down.

That leaves people who already downvoted the ability to downvote again and the same for those who upvoted.

There might be some complications to iron out... say... if a user typically uses all of their votes in a day and one or some were invalidated, would they be able to cast them again or would they still have counted for the day...

Though, I don't think many users use all their votes in a single day.

bjb568

04:23

I think it’s pretty reasonable if it requires 5 CVs + 1 or more DV + 5 reopens + 1 edit = 12 actions and at least 5 people to reset votes.

Night!

hey

Stack Exchange re:vote Edition

Sonic Wizard

One thing I don't like about displaying negative scores is that often when people see a negative score, their judgment of the question is confounded, and they see it in a more negative light, and thus are more likely to downvote themselves than if they didn't know the score.

In other words, they're less likely to carefully read the post and decide it's worthy of an upvote.

The very same thing goes for positively-scored posts: less likely to carefully read the post and decide it's worthy of a downvote. It's why we get upvoted off-topic questions which go on to become bad audits in the review queues.

hey

I don't disagree that displaying negative scores might give an impression of personal attack, but there should be another indicator for the OP that the question has questionable quality.

Not just "0".

Catija

What if the display of votes (negative) is held for the first day or so the question is up... eventually it shows up but not initially? Maybe if it's put on hold and isn't edited and stays closed, then the scores are revealed?

A notification "Your question is being downvoted, please review our how to ask page and see if any improvements can be made"?

Meh... maybe I'll come up with somethign while I"m sleeping.

hey

@Catija that might give the OP a heart attack when they see -8 after it got closed.

the notification is at least a great idea

and 'nite :)

user315433

05:16

Aug 4 '14 at 17:21, by Shog9

A lesson hard-learned during my time with SE has been that it is near-impossible to solve large behavioral problems by attacking them head-on. You have to convince a few people that there's a better way, and they'll do the same for a few more, and eventually you have enough believers to actually make a dent in it.

user315433

Or you can write a virtue-signaling blogpost with photos of figurines.

user202362

but don't do it with all male figurines because that's sexist </trollololo>

user202362

must not think ... burger quoting a boiled potato ... must not think ... burger quoting a boiled potato ...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: how can possible automatically forward Gmail messages to another account: by devin say on superuser.com

Shadow Wizard

05:51

@jadarnel27 as usual, I drag you here in ~~dark~~ brown times... so, what's up? ;)

@hichris123 I'm not so sure. Hope you're right.

Sonic Wizard

I like the hidden feature of my new Bose headphones. Just put the two earpieces together and squeeze, and they'll blow cold air out through the holes underneath.

Journeyman Geek

0_0

Shadow Wizard

@SonicWizard whaaaaat?

Sonic Wizard

They're "around-ear" style, so there's quite a bit of space inside them, and the cushions on the edges are malleable. There are also air holes at the bottom to allow air to escape, so that pressure changes don't affect it. When you squeeze the two earpieces together, air rushes out of the holes, producing a nice cooling effect.

Journeyman Geek

I wonder if that's any good/bad for the drivers

Sonic Wizard

05:58

No, the drivers are positioned far back and away from the cushions.

I suggest searching up the specs: Bose QuietComfort 25

Shadow Wizard

-1 no link ^

@πάνταῥεῖ I replied. :)

Sonic Wizard

//lmgtfy Bose QuietComfort 25

Shadow Wizard

lol

Sonic Wizard

Omega ain't here...

Shadow Wizard

flags as offensive

Sonic Wizard

06:03

"Ain't" ain't offensive here in Texas

Speaking of inclusivity:

Tone matters quite a bit. To be honest, I don't really like the blunt tone of the low-quality comments. I usually prefer to use something like this:

Welcome to Travel Stack Exchange! The "Answer" box is intended only for answers to the question asked; other comments and questions posted as answers are subject to removal. If you have a new question, please post it using the "Ask Question" button above, and please search the site before asking a new question. — gparyani 1 min ago

(Why won't my full-form link to the comment onebox? I had to use the shorter /posts/comments link to get it to onebox.)

Journeyman Geek

The stock/review queue ones?

Sonic Wizard

The hit rate on this type of comment is much higher, and I actually get responses from users asking what to do.

@JourneymanGeek Yep.

Journeyman Geek

Ah, I'm not a fan

Its a reasonable idea, but I have issues with how its implemented

Sonic Wizard

A lot of users don't realize that they're posting an answer...they think they're just posting a "reply", because they're used to regular discussion forums and notice a big text box at the bottom.

Journeyman Geek

yup, and that's kind of why a lot of new people have issues with SE

Nog Shine

06:12

Yes

Sonic Wizard

(By the way, I've had strong feelings about inclusivity long before the big recent push towards it. I've just kept them bottled up because the few times I've made statements about it, I've been shot down.)

Journeyman Geek

Its not what you say, its how you say it ?

The really hard part of trying to strike a balance where you're putting across an arguement that we're doing something wrong, while not actually accusing someone of doing something wrong.

Sonic Wizard

I speak my mind.

The fact is, you did something wrong.

And here's why.

(just a template)

Journeyman Geek

on the contrary - its more effective to focus on the action and result

No one likes being told they're wrong

or they suck at foo

Sonic Wizard

1

Q: "Stack Overflow Isn't Very Welcoming" especially [...] marginalized groups?

In today's blog post "Stack overflow isn't very welcoming" Jay Hanlon writes: Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. I can perfectly understand why newer coders might feel ...

discussion

hey

06:18

@SonicWizard I remember that some QuietComfort lines don't work on iPhone, or at least that's what I got from a deleted MSE post.

Sonic Wizard

@hey Screenshot please?

hey

@SonicWizard Oh, apparently it's on-topic and not deleted: meta.stackexchange.com/q/309294/241919

Sonic Wizard

@hey Bose QuietComfort 35 is wireless. The issue they're having is Bluetooth connectivity. Mine's QC25, which is purely wired.

hey

that explains...

user202362

I wonder what's the percentage of 'busy but useless' people in the whole population. I know I am not one of them because I am hardly busy ...

hey

06:24

(meanwhile, how many more meta posts will spawn from the latest blog?)

Journeyman Geek

Lots

see 3 already?

hey

2 on MSO, 1 on MSE?

Sonic Wizard

2 on MSE

One good, one too broad.

In my opinion, everything has offensive connotations in some random corner of the world.

Journeyman Geek

ah that question ;p

I don't even know where to start

Sonic Wizard

In fact, Disney characters in Disneyland are forbidden from pointing with one finger, because it's offensive in some cultures.

Journeyman Geek

06:31

I don't like hard rules on stuff like that when common decency and sense is what works best

hey

Question: can IPS.SE solve inclusion problem?

Sonic Wizard

@hey Questions about interactions between SE users are explicitly off-topic there.

Journeyman Geek

heh, primarily cause someone tried that ;p

hey

Just a general "inclusion" problem... but then, I remember we have a dying site focuses specifically on SE sites and the like...

Journeyman Geek

@hey heh

We have other ways to talk about problems on SE sites ;p

user315433

06:41

Judging from mera, our first step toward inclusive SE is to start prepending titles with tags. Can't beat them, join them.

hey

and appending titles with statuses like [SOLVED!]

Journeyman Geek

heh

y'all are clearly not taking any of this seriously

hey

wow, that statement offended me ;p

user5389107

I don't get the problem about non english speakers. It's a purely self inflicted issue. If you work in tech, you need to speak fluent english to function anyways. Any issues resulting from not speaking english are foremost corrected by learning to speak english first. I haven't seen a single job posting for a tech position here that doesn't list "strong fluent written and spoken english skills" as key requirement.

Journeyman Geek

@user5389107 funny thing...

user5389107

06:47

It seems to me like trying to be more inclusive towards people who can't speak english is a wasted effort since these people are bound to either drop out of tech or learn proper english soon enough.

Journeyman Geek

when I was a new user, I quite literally had someone complain that my contributions were good but my english was terrible

I worked at it over time.

Now I just have people following me around correcting my its and it's.

somewhat poor english is fixable if the content itself is good

And see? You can complain SE's horrible to people with bad english

OR you can sit down for 5 minutes and fix a post a day.

hey

True dat. As long as the post is understandable, language skill doesn't seem like an issue. However, language comprehension is also a skill, and while certain users might understand it, others might not... (cue "unclear" flag)

Journeyman Geek

Which is fine! That's what closevotes are for.

user5389107

the real world of tech is horrible to people with bad english

that isn't going to change at all, the only way to fit in is to learn english.

Journeyman Geek

See, that's roughly the attitude that makes SE feel unfriendly.

"I'll put that baby out in the snow. If it dies its weak"

user5389107

06:51

You will run into roadblocks every step of the way unless you work on your english

Journeyman Geek

a funny thing is this is literally something that came up on my site.

and got me annoyed

Sonic Wizard

@user5389107 Name a programming language whose primary keywords and library are in a language other than English.

Journeyman Geek

Someone was getting harangued in the same sort of language for having bad english

but but

it was a 5 minute fix

Sonic Wizard

Plus, users earned rep from your mistakes

Journeyman Geek

> Rudeness and belittling language are not okay. Your tone should match the way you'd talk in person with someone you respect and whom you want to respect you. If you don't have time to say something politely, just leave it for someone who does.

hey

06:54

@SonicWizard LOLCODE, brainf*ck, and the rest of esoteric programming languages

Journeyman Geek

@SonicWizard so they did ;p

I mean, that sort of thing is literally on the Be Nice page.

Sonic Wizard

@hey The former is still English to the core. The latter is in no language.

Journeyman Geek

@SonicWizard ASM ;p

hey

Oh hey, ModiScript :O

Journeyman Geek

or various dialects of it

Sonic Wizard

06:56

Still English. add, mul, lea, mov, etc.

Name a programming language where the main libraries and keywords are in French.

user5389107

@JourneymanGeek It's also a disservice to do it otherwise

hey

@SonicWizard Microsoft Excel

user5389107

I'm immensely glad SO is so hostile to newbies. I'm glad I was told in no uncertain terms to shape up or ship out. I'm glad because it enabled me to work on my failings and stopped me from ingraining bad habits

Sonic Wizard

That's not a programming language.

user5389107

Letting people get away with things we know the job market won't is a massive disservice

@SonicWizard MS Access has a translation mode where you can use VBA keywords in other languages

Journeyman Geek

06:58

@user5389107 but what does it hurt to go "Oh, your question could use a few edits" and help out the user?

To me SE has two main goals.

Sonic Wizard

The point is, are there very many such languages?

Journeyman Geek

The one that its meant to build up a knowledge base on a subject is important

but its also a way to help others get better at a specific subject

user5389107

Yes and not making you debug or search first is going to ingrain that which in turn makes you borderline unemployable

Journeyman Geek

I mean, I think I CAN HAZ CODEZ folks should be handled appropriately

hah

Sonic Wizard

SO has adopted a culture of closing a certain type of question from the answer

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