Tavern on the Meta

11:01 PM

@Oded is this even legal?? Employers must inform in advance, e.g. think in Israel it's one day for every month the employee works for the company. They can't just throw away the employee in an instant.

Heck, forget about legal... it's immoral.

I admire you for the coolness, in your place I'd go to real Tavern and drink myself to oblivion...

user315433

@ShadowWizard Here's how it works in the USA

Shadow Wizard

I thought it was some ongoing process, not some insta-out-of-the-blue decision. Oh well. Won't nag further about it.

(but my view about SE team/staff changed a lot now... for the worse)

I don't want to work in such a place.

user315433

I presume they get severance pay, an equivalent of salary they'd get for X amount of time.

Shadow Wizard

"Hey Mr. Wizard, you see, you no longer work here. Thanks for the [put amount of time here] you spent here, now pack your things and go home. And please shut the lights down when leaving".

Might as well be an email/SMS/WhatsApp ^

Shog9

well...

There are downsides to being a remote worker in that regard

Shadow Wizard

11:06 PM

All three were remote?

Shog9

but the folks responsible for conveying information have done their best to avoid being too impersonal about it, I expect; we have at least some experience with remote work by now.

Shadow Wizard

(I counted three myself, maybe there are more?)

Shog9

albeit not with remote layoffs.

Shadow Wizard

@Desire it's not about money, it's about... something else.

user202362

organizations are like dogs, shedding periodically ...

Shadow Wizard

11:10 PM

Hey @Julia! You... still work for SO/SE? Can't really know, you didn't have diamond before... :)

DiskJunky

@Desire and that's exactly why I've never wanted to work in the US. Here it's 30 days notice and there has to be sufficient reason for the layoff. If you've been there 2+ years then there's mandatory redundancy. US system is...nuts.

user315433

8 on the Engineering team alone, 3 design, 2 PM, 1 CM and marketing folks I didn't bother to count.

Shadow Wizard

@DiskJunky where's "here"? ;)

Julia Silge

@ShadowWizard I do! Such an awful day around here, with such great people being let go.

DiskJunky

@ShadowWizard "Somewhere over the rainbow" :P :)

Julia Silge

11:11 PM

(I actually clicked on the wrong link for a chat room. Oops!)

DiskJunky

@JuliaSilge agreed :(

Julia Silge

Everybody hang in there...

Shadow Wizard

@JuliaSilge lol... good to see you anyway! :)

Shog9

@JuliaSilge not a bad time to inadvertently wander into the tavern

user315433

For non diamond employees I used the API to check employee status, normalhuman.github.io/employee

Shadow Wizard

11:13 PM

Still... can't see why you don't do it more properly as in giving them some time to get organized, say farewell, hand over whatever they did, write comments (yes, @Oded that's for you ;)) etc. Why this insane rush?? @Shog @TimPost

Journeyman Geek

@rene you monster ; ;

user202362

like more people at a place in the aftermaths

Journeyman Geek

(Oh its fine. Actually should be more annoyed at the tactical downvote that cost me a automatic bounty award, but I kinda get the OP absolutely positively wanted an answer from a member of staff)

user315433

"Here is a link for you to check if you still work here" would be an efficient way of announcing.

Shog9

@ShadowWizard I can't speak to that directly. But, I've been through 3-4 layoffs at other companies, and I've never seen it done that way; generally, you're out the door within minutes of finding out.

I guess... the upside of remote work here is not getting physically marched out of an office. That sucks for everyone.

Joe Friend

11:16 PM

@ShadowWizard I've been through this numerous times and there is never advance warning in the US. (unless you read the tea leaves very well).

DiskJunky

@JoeFriend I just cant' wrap my head around the insanity (inhumanity! indecency!) of it!

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 Guess that's part of USA culture I never bothered to look deeply into, being so horrible and inhuman. I see it in movies and TV shows, but....

@DiskJunky you can edit

user315433

What could go wrong if a person being laid of still had dev access for a while?

Shadow Wizard

@Desire rage quit?

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard that's been the case for every tech job I've been in.

Jon Ericson

11:18 PM

On my previous job, we learned that someone had been fired when they sent an email slamming management in, um, vivid language. It wasn't immediately clear if they were fired before or as a result of the email.

DiskJunky

@ShadowWizard thank you :)

Shadow Wizard

:)

Julia Silge

I have personally been laid off (from a start up) and I found out on a Friday around lunchtime. By around 5pm, I couldn't log in to my email or any databases. This was after they were super nice during the layoff. "Oh we think so highly of you, this is not performance related, etc."

DiskJunky

lol (@ShadowWizard), not @JuliaSilge

Journeyman Geek

@JonEricson ow

Catija

11:19 PM

@ShadowWizard you should watch Up in the Air if you want a good idea of what layoffs are like in the US... It's probably not a perfect representation but it might give you some idea.

Joe Friend

There is no good way to let people go. But, i believe that everyone at Stack has tried their best today to do it right.

Journeyman Geek

@Desire tbh, and I probably sound terrible here, but I'm actually more concerened about engineering team folk and CMs than marketing ._.

Shadow Wizard

@JoeFriend still, hard to grasp.

Journeyman Geek

I talk to devs/SRE/CMs more and they're more "part of the family" to me. I can't remember anyone from marketing.

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek even in Singapore??

Journeyman Geek

11:21 PM

Yup

Joe Friend

@ShadowWizard Cultural differences are hard. Things that people take for granted one place seem unimaginable in another. I personally learned this from 6 years living in Indonesia.

Journeyman Geek

Some people's response to... hard news is wanting to see the world burn

user202362

Seriously, it's only a job. Move on with life ...

Shadow Wizard

@JonEricson huh. They didn't block their access to email when firing them?

user315433

Chances of hiring a CM for jaso or ptso seem low at present.

DiskJunky

11:22 PM

@Telkitty "it's only a job" if you've got potential options out there...not always available...

user315433

Maybe those can be outsourced

Catija

@Telkitty Really? That's pretty crass. Everything I've experienced here is that the staff is like family... have some compassion.

Jon Ericson

@ShadowWizard Pretty common to get a chance to send out a "farewell". That's the only time it's ever been a problem in ~~the past~~ my experience.

Shadow Wizard

@JuliaSilge I was laid off (fired? What's the correct term?) only once, from startup company too... it was something like "We don't need you anymore since we switch from C# to Java, you'll work here as usual for one more week and that's it".

That's a proper way to fire people.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard so far "Oh, we're very sorry but we feel that at this point there's no place for you here at the company" (Finds they've been firing everyone they can after the fact). One contract end. One ... management and I didn't see eye to eye and they decided to refuse my switch to a full hire for reasons that seemed bogus...

Shog9

11:24 PM

@JourneymanGeek most of your exposure would've been on the blog. Although quite a bit of Mktg work behind the scenes on stuff like dev survey

Catija

@ShadowWizard "Fired" usually relates to a failure to meet the job's needs as an employee. Usually "laid off" applies to when a group of people are let go due to company-relevant reasons.

Journeyman Geek

@Shog9 ya. Which I read less these days, but its not the time for me to complain about that ;)

DiskJunky

@ShadowWizard we'd term that as "letting go". "Fired" is when someone has done a misdemeaner (i.e., criminal, damage, hurt company financially, etc). "Letting go" is when downsizing occurs or there's been a disagreement and there are rules that have to be adhered to (e.g., 30 days notice, etc)

Shadow Wizard

@Catija ohh, never knew that. Thanks!

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I think what they did with me is a certain amount of pay but "we need you to go now"

The brits use the phrase "Gardening Leave"

DiskJunky

11:27 PM

@JourneymanGeek that happens here too but it still means that the person has to get paid the 30 days plus whatever redundancy they're owed. But that's regulations here.

Shadow Wizard

Dang, wanted to read all the transcript but got no time now... guess I know it all by now though.

@DiskJunky here we have this:

Histadrut

Histadrut or the General Organization of Workers in Israel originally (Hebrew: ההסתדרות הכללית של העובדים בארץ ישראל‎‎, HaHistadrut HaKlalit shel HaOvdim B'Eretz Yisrael) is Israel's national trade union centre, representing the majority of trade unionists in the State of Israel. Established in December 1920 in Mandatory Palestine, it soon become one of the most powerful institutions in the Yishuv (the body of Jewish residents in the region prior to the establishment of the state). == History == The Histadrut was founded in December 1920 in Haifa to look out for the interests of Jewish workers...

Though it doesn't apply for most hitech companies.

Catija

@Telkitty ? And? I don't think we think about a family in the same way.

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek oh wait... what happened with your latest job, where you had to walk a lot and do silly things? How did it end up?

DiskJunky

@Telkitty all right for some but engineering skills don't necessarily translate to business skills. Personally I suck/hate it so employee life it is for me.

@ShadowWizard not dissimilar here either though it does apply across the board, not just to a particular set of industries

user202362

@Catija they can still hang around here, your point?

user202362

11:30 PM

do you work for SE?

Shadow Wizard

@Telkitty what did you write? :/

Catija

@Telkitty Yes... because hanging out in the Tavern is the epitome of being part of the SE corporate family.

Shadow Wizard

@DiskJunky careful, I'll be able to guess where you live by that info.... ;)

DiskJunky

@ShadowWizard see my reply elsewhere...

Shog9

@Catija well...

Journeyman Geek

11:32 PM

@ShadowWizard I quit. Kinda taking a break, felt burnt out.

They refused to upgrade me to a full hire despite my manager recommending they do

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek oh. sorry to hear... found anything since then?

Journeyman Geek

Not yet

Catija

@Shog9 Really?

Journeyman Geek

@Catija well quite a lot of CMs can be found here from time to time

Shog9

@Catija probably depends a lot on the person

Catija

11:40 PM

@JourneymanGeek That is a factual statement... but I'm not really sure how that's the same as being a part of the internal structure of the site... Mods have places to talk in private... staff do, too... If you're now cut off from that, it can be... hard.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija but traditionally most CMs and lots of devs are folk who already are familiar with the network

Catija

@JourneymanGeek Which probably makes it harder. You have phenomenal powers one day... able to delete anything you want instantly, migrate things wherever, close whatever you want... data that no one else has access to... and then you're... out in the cold. You've lost a part of the tools you had and that's something that takes time to get used to if you're going to continue to be part of that community.

Shadow Wizard

@Oded @JeremyBanks will you keep being active users on SO/SE? (oh and sorry for my messages before knowing what was going on, @Jeremy!)

user315433

> Sure thing. Might take a SE break though. -- Oded Coster at 1:14 PM - 2 Nov 2017

Journeyman Geek

@Catija heh, least on SU, there's actually very little that happens behind the scenes.

Shadow Wizard

11:47 PM

@Desire :(

Maybe he can join Jeff company as developer....

user315433

I'd probably take a break too, then come back after settling at a new place.

user315433

(But what do I know, I have tenure.)

Shadow Wizard

@jadarnel27 whoa... nice! Baby will be out before you know it.... everything is ready? :)

Journeyman Geek

@Catija annnnnd I'm feeling like I replied out of context

Shadow Wizard

@Catija more like you helping the company that threw you away, IMO. (Honestly, not sure how I would react)

Journeyman Geek

11:53 PM

@ShadowWizard These things happen though :(

Shadow Wizard

(i.e. those tools and powers don't really matter that much. Again, my opinion.)

Catija

I understand that some people don't really have a community. I try really hard to be part of one... probably too hard. Losing that connection with people would be a struggle. If I lost the ability to chat in the TL, ... I don't know what I'd do. That outlet... those people... I have more "friends" on SE than I do IRL... so... yes. I feel bad for the loss of community members... family. Maybe others just see it as a "job"... that's not me.

Journeyman Geek

@Catija You'd probably manage.

;p

You'd probably see the site you're on a tiny bit differently, but a good chunk of the influence I have on the network is in addition to, not because of the diamond

Catija

You don't understand. And now I'm going to dinner for my anniversary and try to forget everything that happened here today for a couple of hours.

Journeyman Geek

Maybe I don't ._.

That's a good idea

Shog9

11:55 PM

@Catija happy anniversary!

Journeyman Geek

I should probably have breakfast. And I slept at like 1am sooo.... I have no idea how I'm still coherent.

Shadow Wizard

@Catija fancy restaurant?

Catija

@Shog9 Thanks :)

@ShadowWizard No. We don't really do fancy much... just "restaurant we don't go to any more because it'd be too much to handle with a 14-month-old"... preferably where I can wear a t-shirt and jeans because nothing says "so glad I met you, spouse" like dressing up as if you're someone you're not.

Shadow Wizard

Well, today it was 10 years exactly since my first date with my wife. :P

@Catija but still, restaurant. :)

Catija

@ShadowWizard Awww! Same... 11 years since our first date, three years since we got married. :D Well, except is it Nov. 3 for you?

Shadow Wizard

11:59 PM

@Catija Nov 2

2007

Catija

YAY. Well, that's fun. :D

Congrats!

Shadow Wizard

:)

Transcript for