Tavern on the Meta

user202362

02:10

user202362

02:25

Just one night of poor sleep is enough to trigger a spike in a brain chemical linked to Alzheimer’s disease, a new study has shown.

user202362

So ... like ... if you have a global jet set style of living and constantly sleep deprived because of jet lag, then you are more likely to suffer from Alzheimer's? Who says life is not fair ...

Jason C

→ 18 messages moved to Chimney

Journeyman Geek

ugh

This place is trying hard to crush my spirit

I got written up for being late. When I'm going into the other campus in the mornings, and I need to actually spend 10 minutes walking over.

user202362

04:00

@bjb so you will start to become a college kat this september?

Inc.

04:15

Ugh, I missed Alex's true reference... now I'm stuck with this name :/

Shog9

Could be worse; could be Llc

Inc.

Whoa...

> Join Stack Overflow in Standing Up for Net Neutrality

user202362

Pty Ltd

user202362

04:30

Of course, you hardly ever see a woman travel by herself

user202362

wut? that sexism, I always travel by myself

Inc.

@Telkitty what were you reading? This Yahoo! Answers?

user202362

yeah, was pondering the possibility of spending 10% times while traveling solo in a rental car to save accommodation cost ...

user202362

traveling with people give you someone to interact and talk to, sometimes they can help you too but traveling alone gives you freedom

Inc.

06:22

Town Hall in 12 hours!?

rene

→ 13 messages moved to Chimney

@Inc. sounds about right, yes

delv-pls 20K ms-paint meta.stackexchange.com/questions/298256/… /cc @Bart @Sha @tra

delv-pls 20K json meta.stackexchange.com/questions/298261/… /cc @bart @sha @tra

Inc.

Hmm... how many "Net Neutrality" banner have I closed today..?

rene

06:40

@Inc. at worst it will be 169 * 2 ...

user202362

07:01

@Inc. I have closed none ... for I have spent time on ... other places. Gaming the system else where ...

Shadow Wizard

07:15

@balpha hey, Unicornify is dead (giving "Python 2.5 is no longer available. Please refer to goo.gl/aESk5L for more information." error), any chance to resurrect it?

@rene done

Derpy

@ShadowWizard time to forget unicornify and start working on mlpify

rene

@ShadowWizard thx

Shadow Wizard

@rene yw

rene

@ShadowWizard thx

Shadow Wizard

@rene yw

@Derpy go ahead! :D

Derpy

07:22

someone savaged unicornify code, or so it seems.

github.com/codingisacopingstrategy/unicornify

user202362

by someone nicknamed 'codingisacopingstrategy'

Shadow Wizard

@Shog hey, isn't Channels just a lightweight Enterprise?

(Well, makes sense, probably Enterprise costs tons of money, but why different naming?)

@Derpy someone who like tight pants.

Eric Schrijver

169 8

user202362

I would have thought Channel is a part of Enterprise solution

Shadow Wizard

@Telkitty exactly, so why push it out as a totally different product?

Also, now I realize where all the dev team (except DAG) has gone to. :)

Such thing need lots of developers...

user202362

07:39

in Lounge<C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 1 min ago, by sehe

That whole net neutrality thing. That's US right?

Shadow Wizard

@Telkitty right

and not right

It's US thing that might affect the whole world

Internet has no borders.

user202362

sure it does, otherwise those EU countries wouldn't chase after US tech giants for tax money

Sagar V

08:25

2

Q: Reputation for accepted duplicate close vote

To encourage people close duplicate questions, I think it should be rewarded with reputation. For many repeating trivia questions, answering them is usually easier then searching for a good duplicate question/canonical answer. And on top of that, you get a reputation, when your duplicate answer ...

feature-request duplicate-questions reputation

I didn't see your face on the users panel and that's why I didn't CC'ed to you. Now you are there

CC @Oded

Sagar V

09:17

feature-request Can you raise the number of CV to 100 from 50 per day in Stack Overflow @Oded

Oded

No.

You want to do that, you post a feature-request on MSO. And talk to the moderators and CMs.

Sagar V

The CV review queue contain 8.8K entries now

@Oded is it decided by CM's?

Oded

So? It was always the biggest queue.

Sagar V

Ok. I thought it was a work from dev side.

Oded

@SagarV yes. And moderators. I am a developer - I try not to make policy decisions.

Sagar V

09:20

Ok. sorry for that. I will ask a mod then

Oded

@SagarV work, sure. Decision? No. And definitely not just me by myself.

There's this thing we like to have - a concensus.

I will not unilaterally change thresholds. If the CMs ask me? Sure. But that's where it has to come from, not the other way around (i.e. me changing stuff and then telling them).

In particular not for something with such a large potential effect.

Sagar V

Ok I will raise it in MSO.

the votes are not enough for me.

minimum 10 will be spend on the site for new questions. avg 25 for triage.

Then I can't review 40 items in the CV queue

gnat

less people maxing sounds realistic. I pick the low hanging fruit when in the queue, making it as easy as possible but even this way, even after getting used to new limit, it still felt noticeably harder than 40 reviews a day. I would say 60 reviews seems to be really approaching reviewer fatigue. You probably can stretch it a little bit more by "amplifying" current CV prioritisation heuristic (which works already well btw), but only a little bit — gnat Apr 13 '16 at 19:57

^^^ be aware that we already experimented with that, and experience shows that over 60 CVs a day may be too much for a single user. Solution for this problem is likely increasing reviewers involvement in CV queue (which is currently shamefully low) but SE management seems to be afraid that this will lead to too many questions closed to their taste

rene

09:54

not the first time it was brought up meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/285438/…

delv-pls 20K net share meta.stackexchange.com/questions/298282/… /cc @sha @bart @tra

Shadow Wizard

Boom

Sagar V

So, it is a dupe even before posting...

Mithrandir

10:19

I wonder if it'll reach 1k by the end of the day.

Shadow Wizard

@SagarV what is dupe?

Sagar V

1 hour ago, by Sagar V

Ok I will raise it in MSO.

will be a dupe of this

Shadow Wizard

@Mithrandir the NN post on MSE? Likely so, with the most exposure possible.

Sagar V

29 mins ago, by rene

not the first time it was brought up https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/285438/we-need-more-close-votes

Shadow Wizard

@Oded isn't it just a configurable parameter that CM can change themselves?

Even in a config file, surely Shog can change it manually, no need in real code change. No?

Oded

10:25

Might be (didn't check). Still not something I will just change on a request by someone here.

Shadow Wizard

@Oded of course, not doubting that. Doubt even @Shog can change it out of a whim, without proper internal discussion.

Oded

Exactly.

Mithrandir

10:52

bleh, i.stack seems down

Shadow Wizard

@Mithrandir it does have lots of short downtimes lately, but ATM it works.

Shadow Wizard

11:48

I wonder what will happen if SO (or other site) will get into read only mode while the Net Neutrality banner is still there. Will there be two banners?

Oded

Yes.

Shadow Wizard

@Oded so this new banner got its own place. Nice. :)

Oded

Just for 24 hours. Likely removed from the codebase tomorrow.

Shadow Wizard

heh, I see it got unique id "net-neutrality-banner", so not really generic.

user202362

12:16

I like how shog gets to host this net neutrality thing given the circumstance of baking sand

user202362

right @Alex?

Journeyman Geek

er... what?

Shadow Wizard

er... what?

Journeyman Geek

'baking sand' ?

user202362

12:32

Journeyman Geek

that's a cat

user202362

I didn't say my messages were related :p

user202362

besides, cute cat in beautiful scenery, what do you have to complain about?

Journeyman Geek

apparently lots

I have itches in my arms from working around the ceiling in the 1970s school we have some rooms in

user202362

take a shower?

Journeyman Geek

12:39

I did

also did the coconut oil thing

its still worth complaining about

user202362

check for insect bites? otherwise take some antihistamine

Jason C

13:45

→ 10 messages moved to Chimney

@Shog9 I'm stoked that SO is finally on the net neutrality boat, but I still want to slap every one of you for waiting so long.

Apr 3 at 17:25, by Jason C

Like the fact that nobody cares about https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/public-policy/2017/03/tell-policy-makers-th‌ink-twice-blocking-content-or-flipping-internet-kill because they're all too distracted debating the gender-neutrality of the term "man-hours". God dammit.

See also

Mar 30 at 15:55, by Jason C

@NormalHuman I love how Joel bitched about an immigration non-issue, then Tim Post tried to cover it up with some sort of disingenuous "we reserve the right to say things that we feel are important", and yet nobody at SE has ever made a "take a stand" post about e.g. Ajit Pai being promoted to chairman of the FCC and things that actually matter to the community.

jadarnel27

14:08

It's good that you've found a way to still complain about it despite the fact that they're taking action. See also: xkcd.com/774

Journeyman Geek

@JasonC I coulda sworn they had a thing about the last time net neutrality was a thing ._.

and people bitched about it too

cazc_941

Today's Listening

Bass that comes in around halfway through is godlike

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Display/Record touches in iOS by jeffcard on ux.SE

Inc.

@JourneymanGeek I didn't find any on either MSE or MSO...

Journeyman Geek

eh. I confused it with SOPA

long day I guess

Jason C

14:27

@jadarnel27 Where there's a will, there's a way.

jadarnel27

@JasonC =)

Jason C

@JourneymanGeek That was SOPA/PIPA. Dont remember when off the top of my head but probably when people were too distracted by occupy.

Shog9

Jun 29 at 20:02, by Shog9

@JasonC took me a little while, but...

Jason C

Those bills were also relatively more us specific, whereas us net neutrality laws at least legitimately if indirectly have the possibility of affecting the world at large. So I give so a pass on this one.

Journeyman Geek

@JasonC well, actually

that its even an issue is a reflection of how unhealthy the US ISP market is

Jason C

14:32

@Shog9 yeah I saw that post I was happy to see it. Mostly I still harbor unrequited desires to smack Joel in the face, which is what this comes down to.

@JourneymanGeek yeah, true

Journeyman Geek

lol

Shog9

I believe there's a song from Disney's "Frozen" that applies here

rene

Sing it ...

Jason C

We have the tech @shog, you can sing it, video it, and share it here in seconds from your phone. Let's see it.

Bust out that YouTube app. The future is here.

Shog9

sadly, I've just heard rumors; never seen the movie myself

Jason C

14:35

Not a problem. Have it ready in two hours. Looking forward to the results. Thanks!

Shog9

But with a title like "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?", I cannot imagine it not applying here.

Jason C

Lol

user202362

@JasonC you can achieve that by stalking him at his work place, you know where he's going to be some of the times ...

Feeds

Each particle also has a password which allows its properties to be changed, but the cosmic censorship hypothesis suggests we can never observe the password itselfâonly its secure hash.

Sagar V

@Feeds Physics???

It took 4 attempts for me to clear the PHYSICS paper in my Engineering course.

I hate it completely

user202362

14:46

I love physics, the only subject I shall ever love.

user202362

although the one above wasn't really about physics

Sagar V

Hmm. I see. I don't understand why they titled it physics

user202362

Physics is more about a question like this: assume you are 70kg and you are going in the north east direction at 6km/h, suddenly you are attacked by two turkeys, one weights 10kg flew into you from south and one hit from west, that one weights 15kg. Immediately after the incident, how fast and in which direction are you moving ...

Sagar V

to the direction where I kept my GUN

user315433

Information Security graduated 6 years ago today (incidentally, the same day that Cryptography private beta began). Top question of last year: How does Google know where I am?

user315433

15:00

Not even MathOverflow was spared from the neutrality banner...

user315433

Area 51 was, however. :)

user202362

15:12

A better physics question: assume your nostrils exert air pressure of 782 pascal, a fly of 1g is flying horizontally beneath your two nostrils. What is the maximum distance that you can ensure the fly is sucked into your nostril?

Sagar V

user202362

don't be shy, those are high school physics, it doesn't take a genius to solve them ...

Sagar V

Got one from google. here it is

FYI for me Chemistry, Physics and Biology hours are always time spend in hell

ebay is out of mind

user315433

15:29

Read "up to 8000" as "<= 8000", there is no contradiction.

Sagar V

agree but the way they expressed not constructive

Inc.

it's marketing

Sagar V

They can combine it and say Shop now and save upto Rs 8000/-

user315433

Stack Overflow has up to 100 billion daily visitors.

Sagar V

It is not from SO. FYI it is from my gmail inbox

user315433

15:31

Well, one has to be able to point out to at least one instance of the thing being true.

user202362

@Alex mostly from pets accidentally pressed the tab and entered?

user315433

So, it's "<= X, where = is sometimes attained".

Sagar V

Hmm. If they keep practise this, they can add as Shop below Rs 3000 Save upto Rs 3000, Shop below Rs 4000 Save upto Rs 4000, Shop below Rs 5000 Save upto Rs 5000 and so on. It won't make sense

user315433

It doesn't need to make sense, it needs to get your attention.

Inc.

Again, it's a marketing strategy to show there's a better option to save up more. Make sense or not.

Sagar V

15:37

@Inc. recently got another mail from ebay saying that ebay India acquired by Flipkart. not sure

Inc.

There are many results when searching that. All fake news?

Sagar V

I didn't searched.

actually I used ebay only 2-3 times.

most of the time I am using amazon

Inc.

I never used any of them though. I just did a quick search.

Sagar V

15:57

Time for townhall chat

mm. looks like it is time to leave my office. It is 9:30PM in India.

Why you people didn't make such events in the day time. Instead making it in the night.

I am very angry

rene

@SagarV it is in the daytime ... YMMV

Vogel612's Shadow

huh?? that event is in two hours, isn't it?

Έρικ Κωνσταντόπουλος

townhall chat...and we don't have any topic yet!

rene

@Vogel612'sShadow yep

Sagar V

rene

16:01

@ΈρικΚωνσταντόπουλος nope, Shog9 is going to take a stand and then we chime in ...

Sagar V

CC @rene

Έρικ Κωνσταντόπουλος

@rene let's see if shog9 will approve of townhall first ;)

Andy

rene

@SagarV yes, I know how timezones work

Andy

I didn't realize it gave a two hour warning

rene

16:03

@Andy yes, but now that you have joined the room you'll be pinged 6 to 8 minutes before the start of the event

Shog9

@ShadowWizard pretty much

although... Different goals

One of the trickiest bits with establishing a Q&A site for your team / company is scale - this stuff just doesn't work particularly well if there are only a handful of users.

Unitato

Greetings Tavern

Shog9

Enterprise is aimed at orgs large enough to actually create an entire Q&A "ecosystem" -

Channels kinda suggests you won't be that big, not even close, and tries to make up for that by offering a bit more integration - between channels, between channels and normal SO

Unitato

I have a suggestion or feature request in mind, and I'd like to see the reception here before facing the flamethrower of downvotes.

Shog9

terrible. Just awful. What were you thinking.

oops, posted too quickly

Unitato

16:06

Here it goes: Why do we close questions as too broad? Not necessarily in meta, but in other SE sites. Why do we prevent users from answering too broad questions?

Sagar V

@rene much better if the events be scheduled at UTC 12 or 12.30

@Unitato Because more people will take it as an inspiration

and fill with such stuff

Έρικ Κωνσταντόπουλος

@Unitato my opinion: AAAAANSSSWWEEEERRRRR MEESESSESEESESSS INCOMIIIING isn't the best thing that could happen...

Unitato

Well🛅

Sorry mistyped

Didn't mean that emoji

rene

@Unitato because I have to write a book to answer

Sagar V

you mistyped an emoji?

you got an awesome keyboard

Shog9

16:08

@ShadowWizard I mean...

I wouldn't.

Magisch

Hey shog

Unitato

Any way, well if an asker asks a broad question, most people would ignore it anyway

Magisch

Is there going to be another tour of your home office after happy hour?

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unitato meh...

Unitato

Most of em won't take the time to answer such a huge question.

Vogel612's Shadow

16:09

long story short: it doesn't work that way.

rene

@SagarV that is in the middle of SE Staff night ....

Shog9

@Unitato because they are waves with googly eyes

Unitato

But if they do, isn't it great to have a great and thorough answer that can help future SE users for decades? Surely a win-win for SE.

Sagar V

This spam spend a lot of time in MSE before deleting

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/298303/…

which really harassed me.

good night guys try to catch up all the things 2mrw

Unitato

Thank you @Shog9 for that analogy, but it doesn't seem quite.

E.P.

16:13

Hey @Shog9 is there some specific member of the team that I can bug regarding this one?

14

Q: Please add the individual close-as-off-topic reason in the Data Explorer

A couple of previous questions (How to find the actual close reason for a question? and How to determine why a question was closed from the data dump/data explorer) document the fact that it is currently impossible to find out the precise individual closure-as-off-topic reason used on any given q...

feature-request data-explorer close-reasons data-dump

Shog9

@E.P. this is... not trivial

The close reasons are in the dump. What isn't in the dump are the individual close votes

Glorfindel

@SagarV you can report those in Charcoal HQ. In fact, we'd love that.

E.P.

@Shog9 I don't care about the votes

I care about the reason listed on the close message

Shog9

@E.P. To figure out which reasons(s) apply, you have to pull the votes and count up which reasons have two or more votes associated with them.

E.P.

... which might internally be treated as a vote, but still

@Shog9 and this is done dynamically each time I load a closed question?

like, say, I go to

1

Q: How do you build your own calorimeter in your garage?

I have seen people built their own calorimeter at home but when I messaged them, they didn't reply how exactly they did it. I want to try building one that is similar to this one but I'm not sure how to do it. They had this one at the Uni I previously went to and I could use it for an upcoming pr...

thermal-conductivity

does it tally up the votes and decide dynamically to give me the engineeringy message?

Shog9

16:19

@E.P. if it's closed, yup.

E.P.

@Shog9 that's bizarre

i.e. extremely counter-intuitive on perfomance grounds

Magisch

@Shog9 Can channels also be for non-company organizations

E.g charcoal

We could be considered a nonprofit startup

E.P.

why do a calculation (whose results will never change) over and over again, instead of doing it once when the question gets closed?

Shog9

Well, most questions are not closed. And most questions are not closed as off-topic. So not as hot a path as you might expect.

@Magisch probably not initially

but doesn't hurt to sign up

Magisch

We are in the filth business

We clean and collect filth

and organize filth

E.P.

16:22

@Shog9 But then presumably that means that it's not that hard to calculate that extra close-reason column when exporting to the dump / SEDE

Shog9

@E.P. you sound like you're still assuming it's gonna have only one value.

It could be as many as three

E.P.

@Shog9 wait, what?

since when do questions get closed with multiple sub-reasons displayed?

rene

@E.P. since 6 to 8 weeks

E.P.

@rene examples?

Shog9

When a post is closed as off-topic, the off-topic reasons displayed are those for which either...
1. two or more voters chose them when voting to close
2. a moderator chose them when voting to close

So in theory you could have 4 votes covering two reasons, and then a moderator picking a 3rd reason, and they'd all be displayed.

E.P.

16:25

@Shog9 I'm pretty sure I've only ever seen single-reason closures

but still

that just changes the formatting of the column

i.e. make it a list inside brackets like the votes columns

Shog9

Realistically, if we were gonna denormalize this we'd probably put it into the JSON column with voter info & everything else.

E.P.

@Shog9 so, is that really really really hard?

Shog9

@E.P. we'd need a reason

E.P.

@Shog9 At least in physics it would be enormously valuable, particularly with the ever-contentious homework-like and off-mainstream close reasons.

Shog9

And then... Well, if we wanted it to exist for all the stuff that's been closed in the past 4 years we'd need to backfill

@E.P. how?

E.P.

16:28

Currently the only way to get analytics on how many, and which, questions get closed via those routes is via a google search (!)

which makes it very hard to audit their usage

and it makes it very hard to convince outsiders that they're actually used more reasonably than they might look

(and, obviously, if it's via google search, then you lose the capability to add more selectors or ordering or what have you via SEDE)

Magisch

I'm a little confused what the hubbup about net neutrality is btw

It's already lost

Shog9

@E.P. it would be less work to just expand this tool: physics.stackexchange.com/tools/question-close-stats

Magisch

republican congress republican president former telco exec FCC chair. No amount of public outrage can make a dent at this point

Shog9

Consider that even if you had the extra vote info, presumably many if not most of those questions get deleted so you wouldn't be able to find them from SEDE PostHistory unless we started including history for deleted posts

Magisch

The FCC is already calling pro neutrality comments spam

E.P.

16:31

@Shog9 wait, how do you get there?

Shog9

@E.P. bottom set of links from /tools/

E.P.

@Shog9 bejeesus, the 10k tools are the least discoverable set of tools on SE by a huge margin

Shog9

we assume that you didn't get to 10K by not clicking everything

E.P.

@Shog9 but in any case, does it have a listing of closed questions per reason?

Shog9

@E.P. no. Not hard to get that, but we didn't think to build it in

E.P.

16:33

@Shog9 If it's that much easier than the SEDE route, then do ;-)

Shog9

there's a feature-request for it somewhere

E.P.

It's still not public, but if it were complete enough then that can be worked around

@Shog9 the reason I don't click on everything is that the 10k tools are just not that useful since the flag queue went away

Even this is of marginal utility beyond a quarterly checkup

if it had a listing of per-reason individual closures, then it would be a good place to police for undue closures

Shog9

still a handy list of delete-voted posts

E.P.

@Shog9 Not that useful, at least on physics, as there's just not that many deletions

Honestly, I think the only 10k privilege I use regularly, beyond seeing deleted posts, is auditing the review queue histories

E.P.

16:59

@Shog9 presumably you mean this one

4

Q: Break "off topic" close reasons into specific reasons in Tools rather than grouping them in one bucket

The 10K user tools are really great! Recently I was attempting to get an idea of which close reasons are used more than others... Currently only applies to off topic, most sites have between 3-6 off topic reasons plus the custom close reason. This means that when you sort close votes by close ...

feature-request close-reasons off-topic 10k-tools

Inc.

1 hour to Town Hall

E.P.

how technically challenging would that be?

I imagine that since you're already tallying the stats, you already have a list of questions in the engine, and it's just a matter of working out how to display it

is that correct, or am I making too-broad easiness assumptions without realizing it?

Shog9

8

Q: Custom close reason stats should link to the question(s)

I'm reviewing recent custom close reasons in the 10k tools (/tools/question-close-stats) and there are some I'd like to take issue with... The problem is, the reasons are listed with no link to either the comments or the questions that they were used on. This means it's practically impossible fo...

feature-request 10k-tools custom-close-reasons

closest I could find

Vogel612's Shadow

soo ... what's the Town Hall topic?

E.P.

@Shog9 but that's way too specific on the custom close reasons

Shog9

17:08

yup

pretty sure there's a broader one, but my search skills are failing me

E.P.

7

Q: Filter by close reason in the 10k Tools

Sometimes I browse closed questions (older than 2 days) and vote to delete them, but I don't want to delete duplicates, because they serve their purpose as placeholders for searches. There's no way to see the close reason from the Close tab in the 10k tools, can I ask for a label to be added spe...

feature-request status-completed close-reasons 10k-tools

maybe?

but that's still just filtering on off-topic

Seriously, though, is this too challenging to implement?

I mean, the 10k tools already have a format for returning lists of questions

physics.stackexchange.com/tools/protected-questions

i.e. for protected questions

just do the same for each sub-close reason

user315433

17:22

Interpersonal Skills got the green light

Inc.

Many users from M&TV on that nomination page

^ including SF&F

30 minutes to go

and I'm sleepy... (UTC+7)

Shog9

17:41

48 minutes. What are you looking at?

Magisch

What exactly happens in the town hall

Small talk with the cm's?

Vogel612's Shadow

apparently there's going to be a topic...

rene

@Shog9 Is this Okay irt the net-neutrality discussion: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/298318/… I assumed those should all go under your question as answer.

user315433

17:58

Blog post by aggieben (former SE dev): Against Net Neutrality

Shog9

@rene I would prefer that

But, got my hands full preparing for chat right now

Transcript for