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9:22 PM
@MichaelMrozek, how do you mean?
sleep is overrated |:
 
ewups, someone didn't hook up all the error handlers on askubuntu.com
 
Tim
@rchern Agreed. My sleep routine is so screwy now that I don't go to bed anymore...I just wake up randomly and realize that time passed since the last thing I remember, heh.
 
@rchern balpha linked to a post there yesterday, but now I'm suddenly unable to find it
 
Tim
@LasseVKarlsen The ASP.NET error page is so ugly, heh.
 
9:29 PM
At least it isn't dumping a SQL statement or anything, complete with a connection string ;)
 
Tim
This is true. :P
 
anyways, mea.webapps fails even more miserably than mea.askubuntu
 
Tim
Depends on your definition of "miserably" :P
 
heh
 
brr. Still can't get used to chat on a browser
Is there going to be an IRC gateway for this thing?
 
9:35 PM
someone is working on an XMPP bridge for it
other than that, doubtful
 
Or XMPP or something we can write clients against?
 
I'm getting to be quite fond of the web interface
 
Ah, grand
I'm a browser minimalist. I have maybe 3 tabs open at once
 
So instead you would fire up a separate program as well? :)
 
I close em to get my concerntration back. Tempted to throw a webkit control on a simple panel and call it "SOF Chat"
Sure. I can have that in the background
The browser is often in the foreground, with its tempting tabs
 
9:37 PM
I use Chrome, I can make an application shortcut with it, runs with no normal browser widgets
 
Guess it remains to see how well the chat system will "take off"
Used to have rather a thriving community on undernet programming channels in the golden days of IRC
 
Looking forward to the official SO chat :)
 
Mostly, if not totally, dead now. Need a new home for chatastic fun
 
@LasseVKarlsen I think this will be 6-8 weeks away for a while...
 
A wise little bird said "perhaps next week" :)
so I hope it is more like 6-8 days :)
 
9:40 PM
Is the core idea to eventually have a "per question" chat?
 
aha, site is already up, but passworded :)
 
so discussion can refine answers?
 
You can start a per-question chat, yes
They won't get one by default, but by making a specific link, you can open a chat linked to the question
 
Interesting. Will have to see how that works out..
methinks not so much for SOF. For some of the new area51 places, perhaps...
cstheory could certainly use a discussion system
though cstheory could use a lot of things... ;)
 
@rchern They're discussing it now, actually
 
9:46 PM
So who do I have to sleep with to get the pre-release password to the SO chat system ? ;)
 
What's the point in getting there alone?
If you can't chat with, yknow, people?
 
I'm sure there's others there as well :)
And did I mention I was partly schizo?
 
lol
 
And so am I
 
@LasseVKarlsen Partly? As in only half of your personalities are?
 
9:48 PM
Yes
 
@LasseVKarlsen, probably @balpha or @marc
 
The rest are just plain wacko
No we're not
 
I tried "(:" and it didn't work, so I'm out of ideas
 
tried ._.?
nite guys
 
):
 
9:50 PM
@rchern :):
 
schizo smiley?
 
I see the arguments over area51 proposal closures (e.g. compiler design) are still raging
 
Yep, they're trying to get it running over OSQA
17 questions in three days :(
 
sigh. Best thing they've done since the API lauch was to kill those proposals
The idea that every single little subgroup needs its own "community" is insane
 
but it's a very private super secret site yet.
 
9:53 PM
all they really need is a better "Only with these tags" filter on SOF, or a notion of a "super tag" category
 
btw compiler design should be a subset of theoretical CS if anything..?
 
compiler design theory is cstheory. compiler implementation is SOF
though cstheory is currently effectively "The complexity question site"
 
oh, yeah. good point.
@AdamWright so it should be absorbed by SO too...
 
way to focused on what the USA thinks is CS theory, with way to much emphasis on closing questions to ever get to critical mass
 
anyway, nite.
Yeah, I hate it when the focus is on closing rather than answering.
"AHA THIS IS ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS WE'VE DECIDED TO CLOSE POWERGASM "
 
Tim
9:54 PM
G'night @radp
 
g'night
 
I hear that argument all the time from users upset that I've voted to close their question. I promise I've never at any point voted to close and then screamed "THE POWER!" and punched the air
Usually I close the tab and forget about the question forever
 
any site with front page questions that are > 3 days old needs to never close anything other than spam. Everything else needs to be edited into a decent format
 
Hehe, the ubuntu people is as always being Linux people :)
 
unless it's so far off topic as to be silly
 
9:56 PM
@MichaelMrozek So how much moolah can I get to keep that one video off of youtube...?
 
Tim
@MichaelMrozek But if you do, there'll be a YouTube video of it right?
 
i.e cooking questions on sof
 
Tim
Bah, beaten to the YouTube punch
 
It is never so much of using the right tool for the job, as much as it is using their tool for the job :)
 
@rchern You promised you'd destroyed that video
 
9:57 PM
@AdamWright How can I write a C# program to flip my burger at just the right time?
I kinda maybe sorta forgot about a copy...
 
@rchern You mean "How can I flip my burger at just the right time while programming" :)
 
But that's a programming question about cooking, which is fine :)
I guess the alternative is to allow a question to be posted on stackexchange.com, and you simultaneously select a group of SE sites that it appears on
 
rather than cross posting, a single question that appears in several
and closure on one site doesn't kill the question, and answers on any site appear on all
then we effectively have a huge Q & A database, with "front pages" being just filters on the database
reputation being awarded on all the sites that the question was valid on, perhaps with more rep on the site that you answered from
then people who really want a Compiler Design "community" can have their own private filter, reputation and ranking setup, whilst questions that are also programming related appear to those who want more general programming questions
 
@AdamWright, that's a rep nightmare though...
 
10:02 PM
Not really. Reputation is just a gauge of how well you've participated in any community
if a question is valid in many, then rep is awarded in many
The situation we're getting into at the moment is my checking 3 or 4 sites for programming questions, two or three sites for math questions, etc etc
 
@AdamWright From my point of view the reason to have a compiler/language design site was not to filter out programming questions, but to not split the "community" between two sites. Theoretical PLT questions will often receive close votes on SO, while programming related questions will be closed on cstheory. Also the cstheory site wants to be for "research level" questions only, so that excludes a large group of people who were interested in the Area51 proposal right there.
 
where my SOF rep is worthless when answering a programming question in e.g. game development, my math.se rep is worthless answering a discrete math question on cstheory, and so on
@sepp2k - But that splits it three ways. The pure theory will end up on cstheory, programming on SOF, and "ambiguous" on compilerdesign
The alternative is that perfectly valid cstheory/sof questions will not be posted on those sites, and will lose decent eyeballs
 
The ultimate stretch of that argument is yahoo answers though
 
the key point for these sites is community size. people who want tiny walled gardens will just create micro-communities that either turn into tiny cliques, or just die
so we end up with sites like csthoery, which has created a defacto policy of "Research level discrete mathematics questions"
which is basically mathoverflow.net with a suitable arvix tag for "discrete math"
except lots of people who mostly do analysis but might have answered some of these questions no longer see them
 
@AdamWright It's not like you don't have a point, but I do think that even the pure theory plt questions will be more likely to be answered on a site with a large population of plt people than on cstheory
 
10:08 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying
 
Of course there's always lambda-the-ultimate, but that's not practical for Q&A-type questions and I like SE.
 
it'd be like stack overflow, but with a different site for each language class. "Pure functional language overflow". "Mutable state language overflow". "Declarative language overflow"
Would three of those sites have been a good idea? Or just one, with tagging?
I just don't see how the community is aided by taking one area, and shattering it into lots of sub-areas that never talk to each other
Rather than having one community, with flimsy partitions for separation when needed (i.e. tags)
 
that's why they got rid of the compiler proposal...so that didn't happen
(i thought)
 
Indeed. Yet there's lots of arguments for it to be revivied. And we're seeing it with, e.g. cstheory
 
i don't follow
 
10:12 PM
cstheory is currently basically mathoverflow.net for a class of discrete maths. So it should've just been mathoverflow.net with tagging, or have a wider scope
And now some of the compiler design people have setup one of the SOF OS clones to be their new home. Pretty sure it'll fail, but still
I guess I'm just annoyed that I have to check 5 SE sites a day now, rather than 2
with 5 independent rep pools, etc
 
I don't think that's a good enough reason to lump them together
 
What's the reason to split them apart?
 
Well, they want to be split apart seems to be the top one
 
@AdamWright, the flaw in your theory there is that mathoverflow.net is a SE1.0 site.
 
No, some loud people want to be split apart
rchern - For now. I'm sure it'll migrate at some point
 
10:15 PM
no
i believe they've stated they won't
 
In the long run I doubt it matters
 
And I suspect a large group of those large people are just unware you can view myse/questions/tagged/FOO and ignore everything you don't like
 
It'll all be decided by a couple of programmers with commit access anyway
 
@AdamWright: So what's your opinion on Ubuntu vs. Unix&Linux vs. SU?
 
There can be no hard rules regarding split vs. combine
 
10:16 PM
SU is distinct. There are plenty of linux questions that are not super user questions
 
They will be impossible to formulate
 
ubuntu needs to be merged with unix & linux. There are no ubuntu questions that are not linux questions
 
Since there is no way to accurately calculate how much relevant one topic is on another site, there is no way you can formulate any such rules that makes all the "right" choices
 
they're just linux questions, tagged ubuntu. Many ubuntu questions will actually be pure linux questions
and equally applicable to debian, or anything else
Yet now, people who visit linux & unix won't see them
 
I agree that they should've been combined
But the communities was asked, and they voted no
 
10:18 PM
and people who use, e.g. debian and so don't visit ubuntu.se can't answer them
 
At least one of them did
 
Yes, of course. The noisy, first people there, said that
 
@LasseVKarlsen Good recovery :)
 
they always will
I'd love "Adam Wright's personal SE", of course. I'd be the ultimate master
 
Yes, well, the thing is, you're not actually combining the questions
 
10:19 PM
But to the Q & A community, that's retarded
 
You're combining the people
And if they don't want to, it won't do much good to force them
Communities as a whole are finicky things
You can ruin your relationship with them in an instant, and work a lifetime to build it
 
Only up to tagging. If they hate anyone who uses Redhat with a burning passion, they can remove that tag
 
So if you actually ask them
And they say no
You have lost
 
But what we have now, in terms of people getting their questions answered, is a huge mess
 
@AdamWright I completely agreed with that until today. Now I'm not so sure. I don't think the unix site would have done nearly as well on launch as the ubuntu site did, even if they were merged.
 
10:20 PM
If you want to force them, don't ask
 
Asking was a mistake. The first few people are always extremely vocal
 
some proposals, yes, but they seem to be working on that. everything should not be on a single site though
 
But the mistake was made
 
we don't need another yahoo answers fail
 
So now it has to be dealt with
 
10:20 PM
If you'd asked when setting up SOF if the C programmers wanted to share with the VB programmers, they'd have said "No, not a chance"
 
And I doubt the fallout of overruling it will be less than just living with status quo
 
The fact is that many ubuntu users are more likely to join an ubuntu-site than a linux-site simply because the ubuntu community's sense of self (of whatever)
 
@AdamWright, of course not, but they're not segregating things like that now
 
It doesn't matter, the question wasn't asked back then
 
and ubuntu is a really poor example because of its connection with canonical
 
10:21 PM
Now that Ubuntu.SE seems to have semi-official Canonical support it's probably way too late to merge them
 
and that was part of the reason it didn't get merged
 
It will be interesting to see what happens
 
(in my understanding)
 
I'm pretty sure that one way to guarantee people will leave askubuntu.com is to rename it linux.stackexchange.com
 
I still think it'd be nice if the sites make an effort to keep Ubuntu-specific stuff on Ubuntu and everything else on Unix/Linux, but the odds of that actually happening are about 0
 
10:22 PM
Indeed
It's just going to keep coming up though - a quick scan through a couple of a51 pages reveals things like "Practical Algorithms and Data Structures"
Which is entirely in the SOF scope, yet is now in the commitment phase
 
@Adam, it is a work in progress
they're playing catchup
@AdamWright, if you read the comments on that proposal, you'll see a comment linking you to
11
Q: Should "Theoretical CS" and "Algorithms & Data Structures" proposals be merged?

dboarI've read Near-duplicate or “subset” proposals on Area51 and understand the "wait and see" process that @Robert C. is suggesting. I have had some comments on my proposal, Algorithms and Data Structures suggesting that it is a subset of Theoretical Computer Science. If the community at large feels...

 
tempted to knock up a quick stats grabber for the new SEs and cron it on an hour basis
will be interesting to see the stats of their development
 
what kind of stats?
 
question, answer and view velocity mostly
along with perhaps close rate
 
10:38 PM
Hello all
 
Hello all.
 
@Moshe hello
 
How do I get a key to the beta chat of chat.SO?
 
Get in line, I asked first :)
 
I'll have one :P
 
10:40 PM
@LasseVKarlsen - I accidentally typed chat.stackoverflow.com on my iPad and I found it. I would be a useful beta tester because I'm on an iPad. Hence, a new device neon tested.
 
ok, it isn't waffles ...
 
@AidenBell how did you get it?
 
I can be on iPad too, that's no reason to give a password to you and not to me!
 
@Moshe - I said I will have one
 
You can have be on iPad, but I AM on iPad.
And, LasseVKarlsen, you should get my apps, once you are on ipad anyways.
 
10:41 PM
it isn't "jeff"
 
there's lots of things it isn't ;)
 
I will find them all :P
 
@Moshe, what apps?
 
@LasseVKarlsen - I have 3 apps on the AppStore now. I'm working on a bunch more. Http/://iTunes.com/apps/mosheberman (shameless plug)
Nevermind. My mistake.
 
That's not it
You have a slash extra
 
10:44 PM
Yep, my bad.
 
You can still edit it, you just have to use the menu
 
ah, the menu is strong in this one
 
How do I edit a previous post, not my last one?
 
Mouse over it and you'll see a little arrow on the left; click it for the post menu
 
And why is tihs room full of the same people always?
 
10:45 PM
Because we like it here? If the room always had different people in it it would imply this room sucks and it takes people an hour or two to notice and leave forever
 
@Micheal - I'm on iPad. What mouse?
@micheal true.
 
I don't know how iPads work, but I'm sure there's a way. It's probably too late at this point though, you only have like three minutes
 
 
yeah, found them
 
@MichealMrozek - I'm on "mobile view". iPad is severly underprivileged because of it.
 
10:47 PM
Still better than trying the full view on the iPad
 
@LasseVKarlsen - thanks. One is religious oriented, the free one is Jewish music and Uncle Fred is like the magic 8 ball, by mattel, but it tells eyeball jokes. More apps and updates to these on the way.
There should be a "touch.so" , like touch.Facebook.com
@LasseVKarlsen - (positive) reviews and ratings are appreciated.
 
yes @LasseVKarlsen - (positive) reviews and ratings are appreciated.
 
@Aiden - you can review too. Also, if anyone wants to test my apps, get in touch and send my your UDID So I can add your device to my list of provisioned devices. Testers get promo codes to the final version of the app.
I just got "Learning iOS game programming" by Micheal Daley. And I have an idea.
Anyone see this proposal? It's a response to @rchern's smileys... area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/22420/emoticons
 
@Moshe now that just seems unnecessary
 
@Mark - what, the proposal?
 
10:56 PM
@Moshe yep
 
I misread it and thought it said it had 59 followers. I was very confused
 
@Mark - I did edit it. You should've seen the original. It was much more blunt.
 
@Miichael: same.
 
Heh
So, 101010...
 
@Moshe: don't you think the proposal is a little broad? I can't see left-facing and right-facing emoticon users sharing the same site
 
11:00 PM
s/site/internet/
 
@MichaelPetrotta hahaha
 
@Micheal - it isn't broad. If that were true, then the backwards smiley users would be compelled to use another SO.
 
i shall use this site as my blog for smiley awareness
mwuahahahaha
 
I'm trying to find an old Bloom County strip that did a great job illustrating factionalism and building borders between people. If I walk a few feet over and spend an hour looking through my old books, I'm sure I'd find it
 
@rchern - ok go for it. Does anyone have a beta key for chat.so?
 
11:05 PM
As if we'd still be here talking to you lot if we did
 
i was kidding
@Moshe, i'd tell you, but i'd have to kill you...
 
@michealmrozek - was it something I said?
 
Yes, but kidding aside, does anyone have a beta key for chat.so? :)
 
I'm not sure any were given out yet, since they tend to be in meta answers or blog posts, and I haven't seen either. I would expect they'd at least give it out here, since there's only like 20 of us
@Moshe I was joking :)
 
@MichealMrozek. - I figured as much but I would rather be safe than sorry. Are there older passwords for the other chat sites around?
 
11:07 PM
@rchern: was that at me? I lack context. I was just reminded of a funny comic
 
no. it was at @Moshe asking for the password (;
 
Tim
@LasseVKarlsen You have to just have to find @Feeds. It's like finding the leprechaun's pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, only if you follow rainbows here you'll be mauled by unicorns.
 
Those unicorns
Can't trust them
 
And @rchern does it again! Anotherrrrr backwardssss smiley!!
 
o:
 
11:09 PM
Is Jeff into leaving cryptic HTML comments ?
Wordpress has poetry in their source code.
 
Tim
Hmm
 
I wonder if I'm letting pissyness get the better of me:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3902474/no-control-name-in-windows-phone-properties-list/3902604#3902604
 
cries at having no edit privs on SO
 
Tim
@MichaelPetrotta The OP was pretty rude..
 
@Tim: yep. I wonder to what degree I was
course, I'd need to discuss that on chat.SO. @rchern, where was that passcode again?
 
11:19 PM
There's two types of users, when it comes to responses like that
 
lulz
 
It's those that will say "Oh shit, I guess I was kind of idiot there"
 
i dunno!
 
And it's those that say "Oh yeah? Who you're to ..."
For the first type, a plain answer will usually suffice
For the second, all hope is lost anyway
 
yeah, I see that
 
11:23 PM
@michealPetrotta - yea rudeness. I flagged. Btw, how do i get into windows 7 dev?
 
Let's hope he's of type 1
 
Tim
@MichaelPetrotta I think that the comment was well-deserved, but removing it (which you've done) is probably "better form", so kudos for that.
 
@moshe: well, that's actually kinda why I responded the way I did. I don't have any experience with WP7 at all. I just fired up VS and figured out the answer.
(I do desktop and web)
@Tim: thanks
 
@MichealPetrotta - What languages do you do? I am a student, but I've been playing with everything from VB.NET to XHTML to iOS.
 
C#/.NET, SQL/MSSQL, smattering of Java, getting into hardware (wire protocols, FPGA)
 
11:27 PM
Have you done any driver stuff? I wanna do a USB driver.
 
XHTML satisfies a deep geek need in me for order, but it seems to be dying
very little. some USB on Windows.
 
Oh, perfect. I wanna make a USB over Ethernet driver.
 
my team's product is basically a big box of devices communicating over USB. that's not my strength, though
@Lasse: hmm?
 
Why do you want to make such a driver? @Moshe
 
11:28 PM
A few reasons. Reason 1 is for my ios development. I think that USB over Ethernet would complete the power of VNC.
 
So you mean you would hook a USB device into one computer, and talk to it from another computer?
 
Exactly.
 
There's Windows-software for that already
 
I've googled it. There is no such software product to date.
But it costs money and isn't cross platform.
 
Ah, so you're changing the specification as we go along
OK, so if I find one of those, next thing is that it isn't red? :)
 
11:30 PM
No, I said from the beginning that I want to use it with my Mac.
I am not changing any spec.
@Micheal - what language do you use for those USB drivers?
@LasseVKarlsen - also, you didn't hear me out. My spec is: a driver that should allow me to plug a USB device into my windows laptop and my iMac should treat it as if it is plugged in locally. </spec>
 
Yep, I didn't see that part
 
Supporting the other way around would be nice too, but is not required.
Okay, np.
So, anyone able to help?
With some guidance, I can do the Mac side of things.
My iPad is dying.
 
@Moshe: Windows (both WinUSB and WDF) talking to microcontrollers.
C++ and C.
 
how much rep do you need to create a bounty?
 
75, on SO
should usually be in the FAQ
 
11:40 PM
It's listed here: stackoverflow.com/privileges/set-bounties . It doesn't seem to be in the FAQ, but it doesn't break down the smaller privileges
 
What do you want to make a bounty for?
... what question, I mean :P
 
a question on MSU. I have 101 there.
 
[feature-request] autocomplete name suggestions on mobile chat.
 
@Moshe, this isn't the place for that. (;
create a meta question tagged [chat] or the chat feedback room
 
11:45 PM
Darn, password for chat not the same as private beta of SO way back :P
 
now you've got me trying
 
lol
 
I wonder if they throttle on many attempts
 
I wonder if they check the failed attempts. I'm going to start trying passwords like "ALL I WANT FROM LIFE IS SO CHAT, PLEASE OH PLEASE LET ME IN"
 
you should (:
 
11:46 PM
if they do that, we should plan a chat in the password field
you say something, I reply, you reply, etc.
really make them wonder
 
well, g'night
 
Tim
G'night
 
hmm, did they take away bounties on per-site metas?
bah, they did
so much for that question getting attention >_>
 
you know, I really wish that SO had an auto-formatter for code
or at least treated tabs a bit better
but mostly that it had an auto formatter for code
I'm just sayin'
 
11:56 PM
there's an MSO proposal for that somewhere, this past week
 
Tim
There was actually a suggestion for that
 
but probably hard to do right
 
well
yeah...part of the trouble is we don't specify language
so the rules are difficult
 
Tim
3
Q: Button for pretty formatting and indenting

ArunSahaI frequently see many questions (and very few times answers) where the code provided is not formatted or indented well. I don't want to sound like a format czar, little bit here or there is perfectly okay, but sometimes it is so out of shape that it becomes distracting and bothersome and I can't ...

 
but for Java, for instance, the rules are really straight forward
@Tim thanks, good to know I'm not alone =)
 

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