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Rob
12:50 AM
@M.A.R. That's fairly expensive (compared to the slightly more effective AstraZeneca), so at least the government didn't get the cheapest stuff: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine#Efficacy biospace.com/article/…
 
 
4 hours later…
4:31 AM
@Braiam Now you wanna buy a Huawei phone from Alibaba
@MadScientist It's great! I let my body's dead Coronavirus inhabitants vibe to old music on YouTube
@Rob from my naive understanding of the subject, isn't efficacy pretty unimportant, population-wise, after a certain threshold?
Say, 85% and 88% percent efficacy shouldn't be really different in helping control the pandemic
 
 
2 hours later…
Rob
6:52 AM
@M.A.R. The difference between 85 and 88 percent is probably quite low, the difference between 50.38 percent and 95 percent is likely important; what strikes me as most important, at this late stage, is not the effect on the original virus but the effectiveness of it against the variants (the so-called 4th wave).
 
@Rob Eh, AFAIK there have been quite a few different trials in different countries and reporting possibly the lowest number is a bit of a bias
Though I haven't been following it really closely
The Russian vaccine got really bad press initially too, so I'm really cautious about undermining any vaccine from any country because of all the BS out there
 
Rob
7:07 AM
The first link in the prior comment says it was tested in Brazil; a properly conducted test should remove bias by retesting and reporting correctly. The reason that the Russian vaccine was commented on was that they tested it on 38 patients, scientists thought that a larger test would be correct.
 
Reuters (second and third Google results) says Sinovac is effective against the new variants, the first result from a news website I'm not familiar says it "might not be"
It feels like some politicized fearmongering
@Rob Yeah, that criticism is valid, but if you go back to news articles from that time, their skepticism was hardly scientific
They had already decided that the Russian vaccine will turn you into a communism-lover or something.
 
Rob
Link to source
 
Hmm?
 
@M.A.R. Its also based on fairly conventional vaccine tech, with a twist... Part of the problem though is everyone was in a bit of a rush, and a process that usually takes years took less, and there were a bunch of competing options all at once.
 
You mean the Wikipedia link?
@Aibobot well, thing is, the reason scientists are usually afraid of things is an odd conviction to try to find an anomaly in case we might miss it. That's now how the general populace looks at it though
So when you get nutjob articles from Brietbart or what that say the vaccine killed like 30 people and they're covering it up, that's not what scientists are afraid of
When they say "We won't be sure if the vaccine won't melt your eyes in 10 years", it's because as a scientist they have to say that absolutely. Other public speakers have spoken with such certainty over the years that the public perception is often tainted. That's how I see it anyway, I'm not really a scientist yet myself
So "conventional method" schmonvential method. That's not a good or a bad thing
 
7:17 AM
Oh, more that its 'lower risk' - and well, a lot of this is nationalistic chestbeating.
 
And about the process, AFAICT they started phases 1 and 2 together, and phases 3 and 4 together?
 
I went with whatever vaccine was offered.
 
So I don't see why that's immediately a problem if it hasn't been till now.
Say, you start phase 1 and phase 2 of a new drug together. Phase 1 is to see if the drug kills normal people, if it's teratogenic etc., phase 2 is to see, with a largish sample size of the diseased population, if it works
If they're done together, you do run the risk of harming more people, especially that a diseased population tends to be more vulnerable to lots of harmful things
How different is the process with biologic drugs and vaccines, I dunno
But the thing is, usually there's a painstaking process where the FDA (in drugs' case) reviews all the documents gathered in a phase before you move forward, and making a drug (meaning from synthesizing it till it gets to the market, if it does) takes like 15 years, even then you have lots of drugs being recalled because the market is an unbelievably large sample size
So the morale of the story is a scientist has a moral obligation not to be sure about anything, while politicians love it if we quote numbers and stats to say "WOW, CLEARLY YOUR TEAM SUCKS"
And yet, almost certainly the danger has passed because these vaccines didn't run into a problem during their phases, even if it was simultaneous
@Aibobot They had Sputnik and Sinovac AFAICT, but I was there and even the medical personnel were saying how Sputnik must be inferior compared to Pfizer's vaccine
 
._.
 
And a little bit of background, our government is pretty pro-communist while the people buy into lots of American propaganda, probably out of spite
Didn't people in Europe do the same thing about AstraZeneca and Pfizer's vaccine?
 
7:36 AM
Pretty much - AstraZenca did all sorts of wierd stuff in testing - like accidentally working out a smaller second dose worked better
 
@Aibobot There's a suggestion in the news here this morning that because pharmaceutical companies didn't split their reports on side effects by sex, females might actually be getting too much vaccine injected and as such suffer worse side-effects.
 
That sounds like it might be a valid concern
Depends on the mechanism
But is it true that the trials weren't controlled for gender?
Sounds like a pretty big oversight if true
 
also hard to believe since they reported things like test subjects getting hit by lightning
 
@M.A.R. I don't know, it's also not what the news article said... just that reports on side-effects aren't splittable by sex.
 
7:42 AM
> For instance, among the reports of serious side effects submitted by drug makers to the FDA, nearly 38 percent lacked the patient’s sex and age, and 47 percent did not have the date when the problem occurred.
Wow
Still, it probably isn't true for the once-a-lifetime pandemic vaccine
 
I guess I should be more accurate: The news said that the reports these pharmaceutical companies published weren't split by sex. It did not mention whether such a split was possible.
groene.nl/artikel/… < maybe google translate can make something of that for you.
 
@Tinkeringbell That does sound like an important detail shrug
 
@Aibobot That error was really embarassing, if the reporting on that was accurate. It's the kind of mistake I expect someone entirely new in the lab to make, that this happened in an actual clinical trial is just insane
 
@M.A.R. Yeah... sorry. Not a native language and stuff getting lost in translation :(
 
@Tinkeringbell I'm pretty sure it's the sorta detail most people miss and sometimes are supposed to miss
 
7:45 AM
I still think my first message was mostly correct though, on re-reading it I didn't mess up that much.
7 mins ago, by Tinkeringbell
@Aibobot There's a suggestion in the news here this morning that because pharmaceutical companies didn't split their reports on side effects by sex, females might actually be getting too much vaccine injected and as such suffer worse side-effects.
 
You generally don't want to split into too many groups, that makes the statistics much messier
 
But if you have a bloody Excel file, a filter is trivial lol. This sounds so simple I dunno if I should be embarrassed by saying that
 
@MadScientist Sure. But something simple as splitting by sex seems to have gotten enough attention in research lately (the whole 'medicines are testen on healthy young males more than females' business) that I'd sort-of expect at least a split there...
 
@M.A.R. that's not the issue. You have only half the data for each group (assuming an even split), and you have to correct for making multiple tests when you determine the statistical significance
 
> Pfizer/BioNtech, Moderna en Sputnik V splitsen de data wel uit wat betreft de werkzaamheid van hun vaccin.
Why is Dutch so weird!
"vaccin" just looks wrong
 
7:49 AM
@Tinkeringbell It's certainly worth to look into this, but I don't think you'd do that in the first trial
 
@MadScientist Hmm. I'm pretty sure (but I don't think the article mentions it explicitly) this isn't really about the first trial/ first trial only. Aren't these vaccines all 'thoroughly tested'?
 
I meant the main phase III trial, the ones with tens of thousands of subjects
 
@MadScientist still doable with statistical tests, right? Or is that not how they're reported?
@Tinkeringbell As MadSci said, the first and second phase trials are not really meant to be big
 
In this case they didn't really test the doses that much at all, probably because that would have taken more time. It's really hard to optimize this if you have to run trials with tens of thousands to know if it worked, so just using higher doses is safer in this case
 
> Pfizer keek achteraf of er bepaalde subgroepen uitspringen, en daarin werd geen betekenisvolle afwijking gevonden in bijwerkingen of effectiviteit tussen mannen en vrouwen, zegt Kaptein. Maar die data is niet openbaar.
 
7:54 AM
I think Moderna uses double the amount of RNA compared to Biontech, if I remember correctly. They probably both could get away with using less RNA
 
So it's not an oversight
@SPArcheon I clicked to find this legendary infamous pun and I wasn't disappointed
 
@M.A.R. No, it's a 'trust us' XD Don't know what's worse.
 
@Tinkeringbell Actually I don't think there's anything much wrong with that, and if there is, the gatekeeping is wrong for different reasons.
 
@M.A.R. If you want the same confidence in the result, you need to double the amount of participants.
 
If you're hinting at screw-ups being covered up, pharmaceutical companies don't do that because it undermines the trust in their products, which is a very valuable commodity
 
7:56 AM
@MadScientist True, but you could split out the analysis and see if there are any obvious differences (assuming a somewhat even distribution of test subjects)
 
I'm not saying it's not worth looking at this, but it's more complicated to actually make sure there is a real effect, and probably only worth it if the difference seems very large
 
@M.A.R. Not hinting... joking.
 
Oh okay, it's a bit of a touchy subject
 
In the grand scheme of things, the minor vaccine side effects are simply irrelevant right now
 
You don't see me joking about vaccines, do you? Wait
 
7:58 AM
@MadScientist Until someone you care about dies from it, I guess.
 
btw, isn't it with all medicine, that it is basically tested on males, and much less research is done on females?
 
@Tinkeringbell that's why I said minor
 
I wonder how that came to be, are women just far less wiling to parttake in clinical trials?
 
I didn't mean the thromboses
 
Oh... I read that wrong....
I read 'minor' as in meaning 'doesn't happen so often'
Bad brain.
 
7:59 AM
Bird brain
 
Definitely.
 
Are birds or cats smarter?
 
Well the parrot still isn't devoured
 
No clue, but you're free to pretend you are.
 
@Tinkeringbell cough cough Benedict Cumberbatch voice Oh indeed I shall
Intelligence set to max, wisdom 5
Did I mention someone finally managed to drag me to RPG
 
8:06 AM
by the legs or hair?
 
@Aibobot or tail
That is our kids favourite
 
@Luuklag the one time a kid tried that, Ash let him know it simply wasn't done. The kid fell over and started crying, after which Ash let us know it wasn't his fault, followed by the kid's grandma giving him a sound trashing ._.
 
9:02 AM
@Tinkeringbell Weird to ask, I know.... Do you remember that "Selected moderators" thing that was made after the whole Monica incident? What was that project name?
Council?
 
I don't know if membership is public disclosed, but for some reason I did remember you being a member? Is that a thing or is my brain playing tricks?
 
Nope, I'm on it. See the search results I just linked, one is a post introducing all pro-tempore members :)
 
ah, so I was right.
see @ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard? the Parrot IS in the council.
 
Why was that up for discussion, if I may ask? :D
 
9:06 AM
@SPArcheon oh, forgot it! So both MSE mods are there. Respect! :D
 
@Tinkeringbell just discussing with Shadow who would be more appropriate to ask for "bad user behavior review"
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard All three, not both :P
@SPArcheon Ehh, that sounds like a mod-flag thingy, not something that needs a full council?
 
@Tinkeringbell the point was that I said something along the lines of "I trust Tinker to be better trained at handling this as a sort of elected CM"
CM because I didn't remember the actual Council name
 
Ehhh..... That's not really what people get put on the council for, so I wouldn't put too much stock in me being there when it comes to those things.
 
wasn't that the project that also included inclusivity training and such?
I must really be mixing up things I fear
 
9:13 AM
@SPArcheon indeed
But I really prefer to not open that box yet.
It might be something huge, and it might be nothing.
 
@SPArcheon As far as I know, the council wasn't involved in the inclusivity training.
 
Out of pure curiosity - are there any stats kept for how many questions asked on MSE are mistakes that were supposed to be posted elsewhere? Or should I try to find this out via SEDE?
 
@VLAZ I think that needs SEDE...
@VLAZ wait... can you see meta.stackexchange.com/tools/… ?
 
Eh, I expected that. I asked just in case somebody had made a MSEtake bot or something to count mistakes.
nah, 10k
 
@VLAZ I doubt you have enough data in postswithdeleted to make that distinction.
 
9:27 AM
 
@rene My estimation would be on questions closed as "This question does not appear to be about the software that powers the Stack Exchange network, within the scope defined in the help center."
 
That's the posts closed for each different reason, last 90 days. Should be enough to probably give you a ballpark number ;)
 
@VLAZ None of those survive, most deleted in minutes or hours.
 
@VLAZ we don't have that info in SEDE once the post is deleted. This is the best we can do: data.stackexchange.com/meta.stackexchange/query/1394813
 
@VLAZ - I suspect a good chunk are almost instanuked
 
9:39 AM
There's been... a bit more yesterday and today than usual, I think. So much so that I now even installed the lost souls on my work laptop as I got tired of waiting for others to post the auto-comment (and of scrolling through long dumps a lot).
Yep... 26 in the past two days, vs. 75 in the past 7 days.
 
lol
I remote home for those
 
I am home :P
 
10:06 AM
OK, I see. SEDE is a no-go. Which...might be for the best, honestly. So, according to the rough stats above, there is about 10-ish a day. That's sort of what I was after. I've seen many questions posted on MSE when they should have been somewhere else (even if they'd be closed there, too). I got curious how often it happens.
 
@VLAZ If I look at the stats for 'today' it says there were 20 :P But on average, a little more than 10 but less than 11 seems about right :)
Hurry up and get the rep to 10K tools, and you can keep track yourself ;)
 
lol, OK, let me just start asking any question I have on MSE. Seems like what all the cool kids do :P
 
I need to ask about blocking image only posts :D
 
@VLAZ Complaining about cookie popups also works well
 
I read that as "cookie puppies" and briefly wondered 1. Why was complaining about those 2. Where can I see them.
 
10:18 AM
Where can I eat them would be my nr. 2 :P
Just seeing would be useless
 
10:40 AM
hands @Tinkeringbell a very small dog biscuit
 
@Aibobot This is very important - is it a very small dog that is a biscuit or a very small biscuit for a dog?
 
@VLAZ Yes
 
Thank you.
 
11:13 AM
@VLAZ Working on it....
done.
nightmare is ready.
sadly, don't have the time right now to try for a better result
(disclosure: I used Deep Dream to mix @JourneymanGeek avatar with a cookie pattern)
 
That's nightmare inducing
 
fell free to delete it
I was just trying to make a Journeyman Cookie
 
Hahaha I like it!
 
11:30 AM
@Tinkeringbell I know I know I'm sorry, I forgot you :P
 
@SPArcheon Ewwwl, green.
Pick something red, would you!
I do like the style though, looks like something that walked straight out of an old painting :D
 
Not mine, just random google.
 
o0
 
11:48 AM
Random google comes up with good stuff at times ;)
My digital/interactive exhibition tour (the one I mentioned yesterday) already arrived! :D
Now I'm going to lack self-control and watch it during work hours, if I'm not very, very careful XD
 
12:27 PM
That conversation about splitting covid vaccine stats reminded me that you can get paradoxical results when combining or splitting stats. So you have to be very careful when you do that. It's called Simpson's paradox:
 
@PM2Ring don't worry, my country doesn't even need to do that. Perfectly able to do dystopian level of mess on its very own.
 
:)
 
12:51 PM
@PM2Ring to be fair, I wish I could say I was joking.
 
@SPArcheon When you name your country "far from here" that would by itself be a sign of incompetence already ;)
 
Makes sense then :P
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard Interesting country ;)
 
Well it's almost a country...
 
12:56 PM
I guess G3rv4 has more time to hang out here since he no longer works at SE ;)
 
whaaaat?? Why?! sad
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard I wouldn't mind, but no its far from that
 
@g3rv4 so where you work now?
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard what stone did you live under?
 
@Luuklag Den
So... transifex is no more? Mr. v4 was key developer for it...
 
12:58 PM
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard actually, I am starting to think that I live "Outside The Asylum"
 
@SPArcheon I've put a little fence around myself and declared the place I stand outside the asylum.
 
> “Ah yes,” he said, “that’s to do with the day I finally realized that the world had gone totally mad and built the Asylum to put it in, poor thing, and hoped it would get better.”

This was the point at which Arthur began to feel a little nervous again.

“Here,” said Wonko the Sane, “we are outside the Asylum.” He pointed again at the rough brickwork, the pointing, and the gutters. “Go through that door” — he pointed at the first door through which they had originally entered — “and you go into the Asylum. I’ve tried to decorate it nicely to keep the inmates happy, but there’s very little
 
👍
 
1:35 PM
Anyway, the next chapter of this pathetic comedy should be in ... less than 30 minutes now.
We will see where the yes no maybe brings us this time
 
What is this show called?
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard :) today nowhere... on April 19th with the owner of the Razor
 
@Luuklag "Ema: will Astra be safe today? Discover the latest news with us as we divinate the new vaccination plan by looking at the filling of a stuffed turkey"
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard I'll keep hosting Traducir until SO takes over, the idea is to move it to the StackExchange org so that it's still open source... and they will host it and maintain it
 
@SPArcheon Too bad theaters are closed, otherwise I'd go watch this comedy
 
1:42 PM
@g3rv4 awesome! Hope you'll have a good experience in your new place.
@g3rv4 oh, that's awesome.
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard thanks :) I'm learning Scala and liking it so far... we'll see how that goes
 
@Luuklag don't they perform on Zoom?
@g3rv4 surely it will go well. :)
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard <3
 
@Luuklag @ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard live stream
 
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard Those press conferences are stream on Youtube as well
 
1:51 PM
also, would love to laugh at this but you know.... when you country negates you the choice on the vaccine after having raised concerns in the population.... enforces an ad-hoc punishment so that if you refuse Astrazeneca you can't no longer request to be vaccinated even at a latter time.... and also manages to draft out a special law that kinda abolishes liability for deaths related to vaccination and mishandled cures during the pandemic emergency....
 
Ryan Donovan on April 07, 2021
The COVID-19 pandemic changed the way the tech industry works and how talent in the industry is recruited. Because everyone is remote, more companies are recruiting internationally.
 
@SPArcheon that's sketchy at least
 
@Luuklag oh, it is plenty. And as expected now we are getting tons of people refusing Astra even under said rules.
Which in a black-mirror worthy twist may be actually good for them since at that point the blame for us being one of the EU countries with the lower vaccinations percentages can be blamed on the population.
 
"blame the people" is the easiest path, sure.
@Feeds good timing
 
But yeah.... remember, EU states are actually considering mix-matching the vaccines shots....
Like in "first dose Astra, second dose Moderna"
what could go wrong???
 
It's not like... I don't know... They aren't even the same category since one is rna based and the other deactivated viral vector.....
> Healthcare professionals should tell people receiving the vaccine that they must seek medical attention if they develop:

symptoms of blood clots such as shortness of breath, chest pain, leg swelling, persistent abdominal pain
neurological symptoms such as severe and persistent headaches and blurred vision
petechiae beyond the site of vaccination after a few days.
.... yep, and by the time you notice... you can safely call for your testament since the thing is probably already too advanced to do anything....
 
@SPArcheon there were 86 cases with 18 fatal, so it is a very serious side effect, but not always lethal
 
2:20 PM
@MadScientist yeha... the "data".... Impossible to find for the average Joe, and discording at best. Plainly crafted to cause confusion at worst.
See for example this....
How can you interpreter data that includes thing like "arm fracture"?
oh, they are talking about mix matching vaccines....
and also inconclusive reply.
 
> Earliest Reaction Date: 03-Feb-1921
wow over 100 years ago!
 
@SPArcheon Adverse event reporting generally has very messy data, that is inherent in the problem as you get all kinds of stuff that happens simply by chance at the same time as you get the vaccine. You use this data to notice stuff that needs investigation, but you can't really analyze this very well on its own without further steps
 
2:43 PM
Also intriguing... "There are no report of adverse effect after the second dose of Astra"
isn't the second Astra shoot given after... 3 months?
Does even any EU country have started giving out second doses?
 
@SPArcheon 14 days I believe
 
12 weeks for AZ
 
here they say 4-12 weeks
 
@MadScientist yep, that is my point. Has any EU country even started the "second shoot round" for Astra?
 
I think only the UK in numbers that might be high enough
If even they did that, I'm not sure
 
2:54 PM
@MadScientist Yep, and one of the expert in the EMA live conference just proudly claimed that "we have data that shows that most of the adverse effect to AZ happen after the first dose".
So surprising .... since there is no second dose given out yet for most countries.
 
i mean, that's like space "journalists" writing articles about "dark matter"
this thing scientsts found/studied is dark matter! no... they just can't figure out what it is
 
3:11 PM
Reporting in general suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect
 
@JourneymanGeek mind adding this link to that most recent delete on MSE?
 
 
1 hour later…
4:15 PM
@rene they reposted ....
 
4:41 PM
@Tinkeringbell Please, have a look here and check what happened with the recent Room Owner kicking
 
@SPA It wasn't my fault.
 
5:04 PM
Prashanth Chandrasekar on April 07, 2021
I’m writing this blog post to share an update on our product-led SaaS transformation, which I’ve discussed in a series of posts over the course of the last year. It’s been a year of transformational change for all types of companies, Stack Overflow included. We are fortunate to have seen great growth from Stack Overflow…
 
5:15 PM
@SPArcheon You got a moment now?
 
@Tinkeringbell yep, what do you need?
 
I'm going to make a room ;)
 
5:46 PM
🚽
 
6:26 PM
@Tin What's the name of the room you're going to make?
 
Just a private one for me and Derpy. No snooping.
 
@Tin ohk
 
A very rude birb, it seems.
doh...I missed the opportunity
an angry birb
 
7:21 PM
Booo :P
 
8:17 PM
That's from the British regulators, I find that more convincing than the EMA press conference
 
 
3 hours later…
10:56 PM
@MadScientist nice
 
11:16 PM
Lol at the question
 

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