Tavern on the Meta - 2021-03-23

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12:57 AM

Luckily, unlike in our previous study, we have no reason to believe Evangeline the Adulterator gained access to our stored doses.

caird coinheringaahing

1:25 AM

Hey y'all. Over on Code Golf, we've been talking/exasperating about the difficulty of getting SE to "pay attention to us", specifically when it comes to bug fixes and ways to improve both site quality and new user quality. Even more specifically, see post 1 (bug for over 6 months), (cont).

4

post 2 (about tag warnings) and post 3 (a more general post that asks SE if we can update our Tour page, help pages and the ask question page). (cont).

(cont). Given that these posts are specifically designed to help new users, improve site quality and are relevant to multiple sites, we assumed these would be somewhat important to SE. We've asked our mods to talk to staff, we've tried to talk to staff, and a lot more. Is there any way we could get any kind of response from SE? At this point, it's really disheartening to get radio silence for so long.

A post on Mother Meta probably isn't appropriate as it's site specific, so I thought I'd ask in here

Journeyman Geek

1:59 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing get your mods to go over them, and slap a status-review tag on it

and/or poke a cm

seems appropriate for one of these cases where it was status-reviewed a whole back

3 hours later…

4:45 AM

stackoverflow.blog/2021/03/23/…

5:31 AM

@Ollie, consider the Title: [Pagination] for the [page] - to request synonymization or renaming for: meta.stackexchange.com/q/362421/282094

2 hours later…

7:21 AM

→ 23 messages moved to Chimney

7:53 AM

@JNat cross site spammer for the 6-8 days backlog: stackexchange.com/users/20797794/ankita?tab=accounts

8:06 AM

@Feeds A director of engineering cannot explain descaling from dozens of onebox to none

2 hours later…

10:21 AM

> The child sites do not offer any reputation points and so the questions/answers cannot be taken seriously.

Paradoxically, I cannot take a question that includes this and affects rep seriously.

The whole idea shows a baffling lack of research into how this place works.

I'm also amazed no one has made the 'I'm not here because I'm so very interested in what is/isn't on topic on X site' as an argument yet.

> We'd need different close reasons; you can't close a Meta Stack Overflow question because it lacks a minimal reproducible example.

Can't, perhaps... but maybe it would be a very good idea to require minimal reproducible examples on metas as well XD

Does that mean that we'll also get the Worldbuilding close reason of "Too story based"?

Which types of questions would you apply that to?

(that aren't already covered by lacking a reproducible example? :P)

The ones that complain about something but the narrative presented does not match up with reality.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ worldbuilding is about bricks. You're asking for a house :D

@VLAZ actually one complaint one of my fellow mods has is MSE has experience and that makes folks too scared to ask the potentially unpopular but vital questions

10:32 AM

TBH, I am not a huge fan of rep. I think it tends to overpromote some types of behaviour and de-emphasises others.

But we don't really have anything better.

And it'd be hard to change the system over.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ "It is the worst system, other than all the others"

and there's certain aspects of gamification - that at some point, you're looking forward to the next milestone ;)

Until a while, at least.

@VLAZ Yeah, I would've put those under 'lacking a reproducible example' for not matching up with reality :P

Reddit has Karma and I somehow have 17k or something. I'm not really active there and I think most of my posts have been cheap jokes at the expense of something else. I don't think my karma reflects well my contribution to the site.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ by then the good ones start worrying about posting quality answers (and I sometimes go "I posted that garbage? and go fix it up) or pesky things like the community

10:36 AM

@VLAZ Imgur points are much the same... most of mine come from a single comment I made, that asked people to list their favorite movie...

I wouldn't really call that a contribution XD

Another forum I used to use awarded points (max of 10 or 13, something like that) for just posting. The longer your posts/messages, the more points you got.

GameFAQs also has Karma but you have even less control over it. It's 1 karma every day you visit the boards. Also some special occasions give out karma (usually static or just proportional to your current karma). The more karma you have the more privileges unlock.

It's supposed to show the "maturity" of an account but past, like 15 or so karma you have all the tools you'd ever need.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ pretty much past I think 30k?

there's not much else to unlock

And yeah, Imgur is modelled heavily after Reddit.

@VLAZ This one would've sounded nice to me if there wasn't just that one case recently of a user using scripts to distribute massive amounts of votes...

Journeyman Geek

then the next milestones are 100k ( which was swag, then nothing, then we ought to be getting swag again) and 250k, and 1M (but that was just Jon Skeet getting a painting of a unicorn, and I suspect that was a one off ;D )

10:39 AM

Scripts can be used to load pages as well...

Yeah. You can just set a page to auto reload every, say, 5 minutes and leave the browser open. You're now "active".

I don't mind reputation on it's own, though I do feel the balance between how up- vs. downvotes reflect on it is kinda lost... a post can score -8 and still not have changed any reputation...

The biggest benefit the GameFAQs system is stop early abuse. You need to visit for about three days (IIRC you need 3 karma) to unlock some of the restrictions. Otherwise you can only post a few messages a day.

That would keep things manageable, I guess.

Yeah. Basically the only thing that it stops is making a new account and spamming.

Well, immediately, at least.

10:42 AM

We could use that here :P Just destroyed two spammers in a row in the last 3/4 minutes :D

But since GameFAQs karma is basically based on age, you cannot beat an older user.

@Tinkeringbell Hey I wanted a new kids room xD

And you have new users complaining how that is unfair when it really doesn't matter.

@VLAZ I've never really understood where that urge to 'beat' an older user comes from anyways. In real life people also aren't trying to 'beat' grandparents to the grave, are they?

I don't think the Reddit karma even does anything.

@Tinkeringbell That's the problem with gamification.

10:44 AM

@Luuklag I'll e-mail you a screenshot.

If you gamify something, you have to accept that somebody would be competing.

@Tinkeringbell I've got 10K ;)

It's more or less the same case as FGITW

Is that really all gamification is? Personally I've always looked at gamification more as a way to make things 'fun' or 'rewarding', but not really as a competition: It's like the weird satisfaction of vacuuming a very dirty floor and hearing the stuff actually go up the vacuum, not so much about who can vacuum the most or has the dirtiest floors XD

@Luuklag Oh, you'll be fine then! You can even click the link :D

Feature request: disable all links in a post when it is spam/ra deleted :P

@Tinkeringbell Meh, its already hidden, so there are maybe a few dozen people that could see it.

10:48 AM

It wasn't a serious suggestion :P

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell uhh

urge, no

but its kinda fun to see yourself go up the reputation charts

You mean, compared to others?

Journeyman Geek

Yup!

@Tinkeringbell For some it's just a fun distraction. Others take it a lot more seriously and want to do everything.

See achievements in games.

Journeyman Geek

and Cat and I had a friendly rivalry over the monthly/quarterly charts

@Tinkeringbell right now, I'm just behind waffles

Waffles

10:52 AM

I rarely bother with them. Others play games for the achievements.

Journeyman Geek

Like...

he probably wrote half the original site

@VLAZ Yeah, that last one is me :D

Perhaps the simple solution to people feeling they can never catch up to older users is making cohorts then ;)

Journeyman Geek

(on the other hand, I don't mind newer users catching up to me. :D )

Although then you're taking away the 'achievement' Geek is talking about, about overtaking waffles.

@JourneymanGeek You're just in front of him IIRC

Journeyman Geek

10:54 AM

@Luuklag LAST I checked...

your at 105, waffles is at 104K

I've never really bothered that much with reputation charts, besides being annoyed that on IPS the top reputation users aren't actually the ones that technically wrote the best content for the site.

Journeyman Geek

:D

@Tinkeringbell yourself included, as your the 3rd highest ranking ;)

@Luuklag Yep!

I'm no saint either.

Journeyman Geek

10:57 AM

(also, fun fact, my 3rd highest rep across the network is... on the mod team)

Nor am I an expert. It would be awesome if we had 1 or 2 actual social scientists or something like that, and they could be the highest ranking users by far, pretty please.

@JourneymanGeek Same here.

Journeyman Geek

this slightly annoys me ;D

@Tinkeringbell It was today I looked at your avatar. Until now, I assumed it's a little red devil. Then I find out it's a parrot.

Meh, I think mod team and MSE are similar enough in some aspects that it doesn't really surprise me :)

@VLAZ Hahaha Yep, it's been some kind of parrot for a very long time now :)

@JourneymanGeek Go do better at soft rec

Journeyman Geek

11:00 AM

tbh. SF is the one that annoys me :D

I used to be able to answer stuff off there cause of work and personal projects

and work is not very technical now, and I have no time/energy for the latter

In fairness, I also have this problem with other avatars. Sometimes for years I just assume it's one thing then randomly look at a bigger version of the avatar and it turns out it's something completely different. Weirdly, it's usually some form of cat.

I know terdon's avatar is someone holding a guitar. I still keep seeing a log fire.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell there was a guy whose ava was a guitar and everyone was convinced it was a shoe

O.o

Never saw that one, must've been before my time.

Journeyman Geek

(I actually was planning to get a photo with the promised new mod hat, and Ash but that's not really a thing that can happen :( )

11:04 AM

New mod hat, new puppy, new picture ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell I don't think anyone here's ready for it, and I'm not working shifts and getting a pup

so earliest is 2023, and if I get a better job.

@JourneymanGeek I also don't think that new mod hat will arrive much before that ;)

So take your time :D

I do hope you get the better job way before that though :)

Journeyman Geek

That's at least partially in my hands :D

@JourneymanGeek And in SE's ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Luuklag well, that's one possibility

But I've tried enough times that its probably not a given

11:10 AM

Yeah better not focus too much on one option

Journeyman Geek

on the short term, the current job is keeping me where I am

(though they're letting me go as a contractor and re-hiring me)

Have you considered applying for Santa? You work one day a year. Food provided as part of work. Provided accommodation.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ bit too cold

also you keep getting satan's mail from dyslexic cultists.

You also get nice warm clothes. It's a sponsorship deal from Coca-Cola.

Journeyman Geek

also its going to be really hard walking the polar bear

11:24 AM

hahaha

Damn this meeting is long

We started at 9:30 AM, and well continue till 4 PM I guess

Journeyman Geek

could it have been an email?

Meetings are very important.

Srs business.

@JourneymanGeek most likely, but one with 20ish recipients that would spark a reply all chain...

We had a customer that was concerned with how the product was going, so they scheduled meetings that ran for a couple of hours every day and included 5+ people on our side. Just to discuss bugs. And apparently it wasn't much of a discussion, either.

My team lead finally got pissed off one day and when they asked "So, what's happening with bug X" he replied "I would be working on it if I wasn't in this meeting".

@VLAZ Yeah love those type of meetings

Been having them myself a lot lately

And then people start crying about deadlines not being met

At least in this meeting I'm just espected to listen and ask the ocasional question, so in the meanwhile I got 2 other computers open to run some models

11:43 AM

regarding burning the tools tag: Should we update the duple closure on this Q as well as remove the tools tag?

Journeyman Geek

which question?

ah lol

8

Q: Which database does Stack Overflow use behind-the-scenes?

Possible Duplicate: Which tools and technologies are used to build the Stack Exchange Network? Stack Overflow is developed using ASP.NET and C#. I found this fact in various answers here. So, I was wondering which database Stack Overflow uses. Is it Microsoft SQL Server, as would be exp...

discussion stack-overflow technology tools database

this

Journeyman Geek

done

thx

only a few left and the tag is gone

not sure if it's best to retag the remainder or just outright delete it

If one of the mods is ever bored ;)

Journeyman Geek

well, link em here and we can probably review it

11:50 AM

There just 5 left, all closed: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/tools

Journeyman Geek

2 now

cool.

I'll try to remember to retag those tomorrow

@Luuklag I will have one of those tomorrow, called PI Planning ;)

So if you see me chatting even more than usual... that's why :P

This is a "klankbordgroep".

Basically a bunch of researchers is telling us what they did last year with the next to blank check they got from the ministry of agriculture

Ah, that sounds boring.

11:57 AM

It's good to be informed, as this is all will lead to changes in legislation in 2-3 years.

Good stuff isn't necessarily not boring though ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Luuklag got rid of the last two too

cool, go post the dragon

:O Y'all did it.

@Spevacus yup

go self-answer with trogdor

12:08 PM

Only if Mr. Geek doesn't want to. It was quite a group effort between all of us.

Journeyman Geek

I'm good with y'all doing it

Dragon incominggg

I've gotta remember to keep tabs on what all happens to the questions I open burninate-requests for so I can dump some stats on what all happened to them.

Would please the stat-loving crowd to see how many were closed, deleted, etc.

I think part of the plan of having MSE mods was that we'd one day go through the backlog of tag requests.... So far I can remember doing 2? :P

@Spevacus wasn't there a chatroom for, at least on SO

12:25 PM

There are a couple other tags I remember seeing that were pretty useless or were the bad kind of meta-tags, but there's no real point making a burninate-request for every single one when they only have ~10 questions apiece. I've just been proposing ones that keep popping up whether in the form of off-topic questions or similar.

@Luuklag I think so. Burninate requests are a much larger undertaking there, though.

Journeyman Geek

12:42 PM

@Tinkeringbell was it? 🤣

@Spevacus there should always be a formal request on MSE

There's so much that can go wrong with 'just' good intentions and others having no idea what you're doing

@JourneymanGeek I should clarify: I'm not retagging those or anything, I'm just not gonna go out of my way to hunt down and create a request for them unless they come up somewhat organically.

Journeyman Geek

Ah

I've read a little bit about what can happen when folks take it upon themselves to nuke a tag. No bueno.

> The community simply can not deal with the tide of off-topic questions that engagement efforts inadvertently create. Has anyone ran out of close votes recently? We've also seen an uptick in targeted trolling, as well as people simply not acting in good faith. There are also janitorial tag tasks, languishing synonyms, stuff that still probably needs to be migrated, short-circuited duplicate chains - there's no shortage of stuff to do.

'janitorial tag tasks' were mentioned in the introduction posts, so I'd say yeah.

Journeyman Geek

ah lol

@Tinkeringbell I think we've been busy with most of all of the rest :D

12:54 PM

off-topic posts for sure.

Trolling, true.

other bad faith actors, also plenty.

but the other 4, I don't think I've done more than 1/2 of those ;)

Journeyman Geek

ooh. Do we status-complete tag cleanups? I can never remember

@Tinkeringbell I've migrated stuff! Rarely but I have

@JourneymanGeek But we can't even migrate stuff that 'still probably needs to be migrated' XD

Journeyman Geek

yup

but new stuff we can. The stuff from the MSO/MSE split though, nope

I think I've migrated a few posts as well.

Mostly to MSO

Journeyman Geek

I guess if anything was that important we can grab a CM to do the needful

12:57 PM

@JourneymanGeek I've seen questions that have been

Journeyman Geek

@Luuklag we can't migrate old questions

@JourneymanGeek I mean, it was listed in that paragraph I just quoted. I've never seriously thought about doing it. It's just funny to read that ... two and a half years later and think about differences :P

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…

@JourneymanGeek Er, that was with regards to status-completed on tag cleanups

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus I literally can't remember :D

Done

12:59 PM

/o/

1:39 PM

Already gone too :D

1 hour later…

2:41 PM

@ShadowWizardisVaccinating how many posts are required for the homepage to be considered Yaakoved?

Humble request for my bug report to get a second look now that the bug it's closed as a dupe of, this question, has been fixed. The bug I reported is still present.

Oh, hi Yaakov.

Wild guess: 6-8?

Journeyman Geek

Its always 6-8 :D

Thanks Yaakov :)

🚽

@Spevacus that was 6, now its officially Yaakoved :)

Oh no, its 8, post 49 and 50 are also yaakoved

1 hour later…

3:57 PM

@JNat Cross-site malware-spammer: stackexchange.com/users/21039623/mel?tab=top

again

Destroying their network profile will really only get so much mileage for that particular spammer, sadly.

They recreate their accounts daily and just keep on spamming.

I guess

Just don't click the links...

Shadow Wizard is Vaccinating

4:11 PM

@YaakovEllis 6-8, so it's approved. MSE homepage is Yaakoved again.

4:28 PM

Is the current Markdown processor used by SE opensource and if yes, where is it? I can only find the older pagedown/markdown implementations.

4:54 PM

> We're planning to use CommonMark for all posts across the network moving forward. To do so, we switch to CommonMark-compliant Markdown renderers on the client and the server side.

579

Q: We're switching to CommonMark

I’m Ham and I’m a developer on the Teams team here at Stack Overflow. Over the past few months, I’ve been heads down working on the way we turn Markdown into HTML when writing and editing posts across the network. I’d love to share what I’ve come up with. In a nutshell: We're planning to use Comm...

discussion status-completed markdown announcements commonmark

server side: github.com/xoofx/markdig

client side: github.com/markdown-it/markdown-it

thanks!

1 hour later…

6:12 PM

Still doing songs and dances with the maintenance and downtime tags I see.

Huh? Did I miss something recent or are you talking about 16 hour old things? :D

Oh found it.

Nah it's starting to happen again :/

@Braiam May I suggest you use the meta to be meta, and make a post discussing the usage and tag wiki text of the maintenance tag, gather some support for any needed changes, and then go do retagging and tag wiki edits... instead of going rogue? :D

@Spevacus I believe I offered a good explanation in my review.

I want to be clear as well I did not mean to directly call out Braiam, more that I saw that there was a conflict between if/when we should use those tags and what they should be about.

6:18 PM

Yeah, and I'm not calling out, just giving advice. Right now, both Braiam and the people reviewing all that stuff and rolling things back are wasting time, and it all ends up with moderators getting involved and we have better things to do as well... so go be adults :P

To go on your own without discussion you must be 100% correct, and I don't believe that was the case.

@Tinkeringbell But adulting is boring D:

@Spevacus Then you're doing the wrong adulting things.

Tru

6:32 PM

One very adult thing to do that's fun: Ordering phone covers via aliexpress (my phone is old, Dutch webstores don't sell any nice covers anymore)

I suppose I could buy some things that I've been meaning to buy for a long time...

No idea why I haven't yet.

Because you don't really need them :) And that's adulting too :P

My phone cover broke yesterday, so it's now superglued and looking superfancy XD

But it'll hold until the new ones arrive. (Yes, I ordered more than 1 because I'm not having much faith that these will last much more than 6-8 months each XD)

Eh, one thing that's on the list is an air purifier. It's something my girlfriend's wanted for awhile, especially because of springtime allergies and all that jazz. It's just not something I've prioritized despite it having a high possibility of very positively impacting my home life.

Ah... A coworker of mine has one, he shared a picture a few days back of the filter. It sure did do something!

@Tinkeringbell See I've never been a person who frequently drops their phone, but I always make sure I keep a tempered glass cover on mine because the one time I do drop it, I don't want it to be catastrophic D:

6:40 PM

(He had it running for a few days because of pollen allergies)

I've got a few family members who aren't as lucky, though... One of them bought a new phone, dropped it inside of 3 days (shattering it in the process), bought another, and dropped that (again, shattering it)...

@Spevacus My phone has proven to be indestructible, so far... Always just a cover case, no screen protectors or something. The 'official' cover case lasted pretty long, but somewhere around August last year it really had to be replaced.

So I bought an 'unofficial' case, because the official ones are no longer being sold...

It's already needing replacing.

@Spevacus Ouch!

I've been lucky I guess. Never managed to drop a phone and break the glass. Worst I've had were a few scratches on the plastic.

I've shattered the screen cover before. Once. That was scary for a bit, as I had completely forgotten I had the cover on it. I started picking at the sides, curious, and noticed that 3 years or so ago I had saved future-me a headache. Hooray!

my case has a few nicks/dents in the plastic from all the times i've dropped it

phone's never been damaged tho

I drop mine at least twice a year... and yeah, the cover catches all of that :D

6:45 PM

i use the thin, open face otterbox case, not the full waterpoof quarter inch thick one

I could never use those turbo sized phone cases. It's gotta fit in my pocket comfortably.

yea

Same here... It needs to be thin and fit a single debit card though :D

I've never had one that didn't also cover the screen itself. I think if I had to do without that, I'd get a screen protector at least, to avoid scratches.

i can't stand something covering the screen

always get dust/hair behind it

In case of screen protectors: same. I've tried once XD. The covers I use are fine though.

6:54 PM

I have toddlers.

Yeah... Thick case definitely justified there.

I've been pretty happy with the two-layer case I have - it's not particularly thick. It's a squishy layer with a hard plastic to support it and hold it in shape.

Sonic the Curiouser Hedgehog

I dropped my previous phone about a dozen times before its glass eventually broke. No case or protector

Apple keeps trying to tell me that my glass is unbreakable and unscratchable but I think they've gotten a bit confused.

Though, I'll say that my Apple Watch face is surprisingly strong. Bennett whacked it with a rock a few times a couple of weeks ago and it doesn't seem to have done anything.

7:33 PM

Level Up: creative coding with p5.js – part 2

Ben Popper on March 23, 2021

In this session, we will turn our static drawings into animations!

🚽

1 hour later…

8:54 PM

No pin yet?

Welcome new CM Philippe!

7

9:16 PM

*grumble grumble* not having the preview in Markdown is a bit annoying when working on tables that you're not familiar with

Yeah, I think I screwed up once big time, so I switched back to the old editor

Cool flair there ..

9:53 PM

Can I want free bitcoin spam?

Or are lolcats just trading bitcoins now?

@VLAZ it is closed, I did cast a delete vote, now we wait for @sha and @son to finish the voting.

2 hours later…

Journeyman Geek

11:56 PM

@Mithical ah. The teams now all have managers 😁

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