Tavern on the Meta

1:06 PM

@Shadow9 And while we wait for a mod to get to that, someone can just continue posting... while a few downvotes will push it into an automatic system to handle it: the post ban

Shadow9

@Tinkeringbell true

Tinkeringbell

I also like the post ban better than suspensions, because it forces you to make good contributions (either by improving existing stuff or writing better new stuff), unlike a suspension where people can just pick up where they left off (and often do, in my experience)

Shadow9

Well... so it can be useful to allow mods to give post ban.

Requires some big changes, but doable, I guess.

Tinkeringbell

@Shadow9 Perhaps. Still, if a community would consistently moderate low quality posts, and votes weren't reversed... It would probably be easier than having mods manually set one.

Shadow9

Vote reversal is important, better not bin it

Magisch

1:15 PM

I mean the whole SE model breaks down if mods and community aren't on the same page regarding quality metrics

if say answers without backup regularly get swaths of upvotes then it ought to be examined if the policy is still within consensus

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch :/ Not really though, as the SE model itself requires said backup.

If you have a 'community' that doesn't stick to that, it doesn't really belong on SE and should probably be migrated to Reddit.

Magisch

well you can't make your userbase do things they don't want to

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch True, it's a 'take their toys away' kind of scenario.

Magisch

eh. It might be more of a "find out if SE is a platform fit" scenario

besides, TWP doesn't have a backup policy, and it works relatively fine

Tinkeringbell

@Shadow9 Oh, it probably shouldn't be binned... but it should allow for proper content moderation without relying on 'vote on something else in between' workaround.

Magisch

1:19 PM

it just requires you to elaborate your reasoning for your answer, but there is plenty of subjectivity and it's not a cesspit

Shadow9

@Tinkeringbell maybe... but hard to tweak it

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch TWP does have one too, technically. No one really does anything with it anymore it seems though. I spent some time over on TWP specifically to learn about it, and learned... nothing.

Magisch

well yeah it's a pretty much common sense based thing

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Eh, I beg to differ on that. It might not be a cesspit but it certainly doesn't smell like roses either.

Magisch

fuzzy around the edges

Tinkeringbell

1:24 PM

IPS doesn't work like that, and I'm happy about it. We'd get this all the time.

(Courtesy of Em that linked me to that one)

Magisch

In the end, it's not either of our calls to make

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I'm still a moderator on IPS, so it's a bit of a call for me to make there.

I have given up on TWP ;)

Magisch

mods dont make policy decisions though

they just enforce them

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Luckily we now have the policy set so I can still enforce it.

Magisch

if your community told you right now they're getting rid of the back up rule you could argue as a member of that community but mods don't get a supervote on policy

CMs might, if they decide IPS isn't allowed to get rid of the policy

Tinkeringbell

1:29 PM

@Magisch Depends on who you'd count as community too. A random influx of users saying they should be allowed to because their posts were moderated and they're grumpy certainly doesn't override the SE model.

Right now there's a few good people on IPS and I hope they stick.

@Magisch That would honestly be lovely. We have one post from Shog saying 'Finally' when asked about implementing and enforcing backup :P

Magisch

heh

Tinkeringbell

Still took us a while even after that to get it going good.

Magisch

it also left a bitter taste in many people's mouths

Tinkeringbell

True, people still think we're the gossip corner.

And some people really want a gossip corner.

There's not much we can do about that though, just like SO still doesn't allow low quality questions or duplicates ... and that leaves a bitter taste in many people's mouths too.

I'm not sure why one would argue that IPS should settle for less just because of it's subject matter lending itself to lesser quality content just as well as good quality content... :/

But apparently people do.

Magisch

I always thought IPS could be a place where you could ask about advice and strategies to deal with interpersonal issues, either generally or specific

and that you could give advice. I'm not sure I'm in favor of a "back this up or we delete it" policy but I see why backup should be encouraged

It got too academic for my liking, tbh

Tinkeringbell

1:38 PM

@Magisch That 'give advice' part is dangerous. It's still an SE site, so it's not about questions and advice, the A in Q&A still stands for 'Answer'.

It's that thought though that makes it that we have to explain IPS over and over and over as not just an advice site. Which is kinda strange considering it is hosted on a network of sites with questions about a specific subject matter, yet people still think...

It's the same as using SO to write your code for you, or dumping your homework on Math, I guess.

Both come from wrong expectations.

Hard to manage expectations too.

Magisch

When you're dealing with a topic which is fuzzy like IPS, there's not really right and wrong advice besides broadly

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch And it's still way too soft for mine... but it seems to have found a precarious balance that I'd like to keep.

Magisch

and any advice is technically an answer. Bad advice is just a bad one

you can't really compare IPS to a code problem

there's a "right answer" for a code problem. there isn't on IPS

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch True. Back up isn't about right or wrong... it's about proving your hypothesis.

And you don't do that with 'common sense' as that's a myth on an international site.

Magisch

It does feel kinda contrived

Tinkeringbell

1:43 PM

It's how the system is supposed to work.

Magisch

and it means basically to participate there you need to share a lot about yourself

Tinkeringbell

I'm sure there's places outside the system that allow you to just post your opinion and be done with it.

@Magisch Not necessarily, the best kind of backup is sources, not experience. Experience is for when you don't have any sources.

Magisch

literally nobody reads academic sources on interpersonal relations

except academics or people with an academic interest in it

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch excuse me.

Magisch

but that isn't your userbase

Tinkeringbell

1:45 PM

@Magisch That kinda reminds me of all those 'we're driving away the experts with huge amounts of low quality content' arguments.

Magisch

maybe it is now, it's been a while since I peeked in

Tinkeringbell

If your userbase doesn't contain anything interesting for someone that is interested in reading about interpersonal skills, of course they won't become part of your userbase.

Magisch

thats a place where the expert model kinda falls apart doesn't it. To remain useful to the general public it needs to be a space where you can share and ask about things that a normal person might deal with. But if you want experts on the subject then you're going to have an academic discussion about hypothethicals.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Things that a normal person might deal with aren't necessarily excluded from research...

Magisch

technical SE sites are about a topic where the usual practitioner seeks to become an expert someday, and where there are experts that also have nonacademic interest in the subject. IPS is something literally everyone does every day

so the gap between answerers and askers on a technical site is relatively small, because they're drawn from the same group of people.

Tinkeringbell

1:48 PM

Yep. So we need to get those people that have at least an interest in the subject, not just the people that are people everyday.

You still don't want the homework dumpers, not even on your technical site. And everyone has to do Math in school.

Magisch

like, I'm certainly not uniquely qualified to give answers on IPS. I don't have an academic interest in the subject, all I have is trial & error experiences

and I'm not fond of laying out my whole life story in the course of giving answers, tbh.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch That's your own choice then. If you're not comfortable giving your equation and how you worked it out on e.g. Math, you'd probably run into the same problem.

From what I've seen they don't really accept answers that just say '42'

Magisch

At the start, when IPS was new, I restricted myself to answering where I thought I may have a useful perspective. Most of these answers are probably deletable under current policies

@Tinkeringbell on SO they do though

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch We've had a discussion about that and at most you'll get a comment if someone stumbles across it, so people can see it's not up to current standards ;)

Magisch

for a technical question an answer is very self evidently verifiable. It either works or doesn't

Tinkeringbell

1:52 PM

@Magisch SO is weird then. :P

@Magisch True. So perhaps on SO you can give a line or two of code that fixes the problem... still the best answers to me do explain what's different in those lines, and why they work while my code didn't.

Even there, a great answer can be more than just '42'.

Magisch

for instance when someone has a problem with their SQL query and maybe made a logical error. You can point out the error and provide a correct version, you don't need a source from whence you drew the answer. Because it's possible for the asker to run it and see if it works.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch We could play with people's lives like that... should be fun.

BlueSoul

@Tinkeringbell outdated. Was 42. Now it is 48.

Magisch

projecting that on an IPS answer, if someone asked "Why did X get upset" and you go "X got upset because you said Y which is generally offensive because Z" that would be a sufficient level of detail, but not contain backup

Tinkeringbell

@BlueSoul I missed the update, do you have a source?

release notes?

@Magisch Ah yes... we don't do 'why did X get upset' though, as we can't read minds.

We had a discussion about updating the help center for that, we should make work of that.

Magisch

1:55 PM

in the end, any advice given is playing with people's lives like that, because people often leave out crucial details and IPS is a super complicated subject with lots of moving parts

you remember the question I asked about the girl that stepped on my foot? She tried to get her boyfriend to beat me up after I apologized :)

Tinkeringbell

Oh, that's wonderful :/

BlueSoul

@Tinkeringbell as Rick Berman said "47 is 42, corrected for inflation".

But that happened a few years ago...

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Which is why getting some questions to work already takes more work than answering them ;)

BlueSoul

so it should be 48 by now.

maybe even 49

Tinkeringbell

AH.

BlueSoul

1:58 PM

(yep, that is the reason Star Trek often mentions 47)

Tinkeringbell

Anyway, I like IPS with back up rules and the citation expectations we stole from RPG... and I like seeing RPG posts on HNQ, as the answers are always backed up :D

Rob

Whichever way you look at it, on SO or IPS, you don't want to break Data

25 great Data (Brent Spiner) quotes

►

Tinkeringbell

@Rob I'd also settle for not breaking anything, not just Data ;)

HostileFork says dont trust SE

When you stroke the beard, you appear more thoughtful.

Rob

It gets better, and you'll note that it doesn't start at the beginning for some reason

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:07 PM

I am guilty. I'm guilty of promoting StackExchange as I travel (which I do a lot). To people who didn't go to college and work for under the table cash, I said they could up their skills by getting accounts on Home Improvement. I've told people who are unemployed English majors that they can hone their skills and advertise themselves as high rep people on English Language Learners or Writing SE.

BlueSoul

Detected Fork user.

Journeyman Geek

Hah

BlueSoul

Accessing memory storage....

Journeyman Geek

I have the highest SU reputation in SEA....

Never got me hired 😂

HostileFork says dont trust SE

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE000375AD6200100421080001F0707C0213E421440001C17C5E04212A62920001D1FC1E0001F0707C0000000000000231AD540001D1FC1E0002D984200001D1FC1E0000000000000375AD620001C17C5E00842F8C5E0001D1FC1E0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFE0FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Tinkeringbell

2:09 PM

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE What beard? I think people would just hate me if I started stroking random beards :P

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Well, I can attest that SE rep doesn't mean much to most people.

Tinkeringbell

And I'd look weird with one.

Magisch

I dont list my SE account on my resume

Rob

Yeah, we can reply to that ...

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE flags as spam

@Magisch I kinda do

BlueSoul

2:10 PM

yep... yep.. it is that Fork.

20

A: Automated My Little Pony detection and classification

Cartoonists take particularly strong license in their drawings vs. an unretouched photo. Thus trying to identify Pinkie Pie by color doesn't do a lot of good in a frame where she has fallen into a vat of black paint. Or you might think you could identify Rarity by her horn, but consider the epi...

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Maybe you're just too lazy to read it.

BlueSoul

We know about you. Welcome, Identifier of Ponies

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Me neither. It might come up under 'how do you spend your free time' but that's about it.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Not the most popular, though.

132

A: C/C++ function definitions without assembly

How does a library function like printf() get implemented in C/C++ without using assembler code? What actually executes the right software interrupt? For most practical purposes, you can't really call the BIOS from Linux or from Windows. And really, you shouldn't want to interact with the B...

I'm pretty bummed out about what's going down with StackExchange, and it seems like there's not really any help desk for it.

Tinkeringbell

Welcome to the club... here we wallow in misery.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:14 PM

Is there really nothing anyone can do? Call me dumb, but I kind of...thought Joel was...not going to let this happen.

Is this about money?

Tinkeringbell

Your guess is as good as mine.

No one really seems to know, a lot of people guess that yes it is.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Well I tried to ask about talking to him, before I found out how much of a nobody I am.

That was a bit of a shocker.

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE If we knew, we'd do something about it :D

Shadow9

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE the help desk needs help

HostileFork says dont trust SE

I kind of lived under the illusion that I was somewhat important, so it has taken a bit of time to adjust to not being important.

Just ask Lightness. He knows.

Shadow9

2:17 PM

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Joel isn't relevant anymore, he left to find new adventures. Can't blame him, it's boring to do the same thing for 10 years.

Tinkeringbell

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE It's an easy mistake to make.

In the grand scheme of things... you're just another fork ;)

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Maybe not. I linked this and, y'know, it's part of my life, so why not. Mercutio, Heaven, Earth, etc.

I had a sort of idea for a distributed SE type thing back in the ICQ days.

I called it... don't laugh... "WorldQueue"

Yes, you are laughing.

Basically a distributed SE type thing built on ICQ that was sort of also a fusion with an OKCupid type thing, so people would emerge from your network, showing up as a blur but the more the correlations linked up then the more you'd see about them.

PM 2Ring

@Shadow9 Sure, Joel is no longer the CEO, but he is the chairman of the board of directors.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Anyway, stupid name, but decent idea. I talk about FreedomBox and FreeNet and other such pieces of the puzzle.

Tinkeringbell

Those sounds like old internet things?

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:21 PM

But then what do I do? Trust central authority, because it's convenient. I drew a line where I'm not going to use Facebook but I'm going to use StackExchange, but really, what's the difference?

PM 2Ring

I'm kind of hopeful that some useful information will be exchanged in this meeting between the CEO & an SO mod:

@AaronHall - thanks for your thoughtful answer. I would like to take you up on your offer to meet face-to-face at our NYC office. My team will reach out to you by email to arrange a meeting. I look forward to engaging in a deeper discussion with you. — Pchandrasekar ♦ Jan 22 at 15:39

HostileFork says dont trust SE

I dunno. I knew Joel and Jeff before SE, and this guy, seems like... really... not a person?

Vacuous.

Tinkeringbell

We're talking about a CEO. Those are always shrouded in mystery...

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Not if they're good.

Look at Ballmer vs. Nadella.

Tinkeringbell

Neither rings a bell here.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:24 PM

Steve Ballmer who was a fairly poor role model for a tech company after Bill Gates left Microsoft.

And many call it MS's "lost decade"

Nadella has actual vision and people like him.

He has a special needs child, a very human way of speaking.

Tinkeringbell

The harder his fall will be.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

He was kind of the force behind Azure.

Anyway, I do deserve the "not a robot" badge, because I went to the Colorado office which is... yes, now shut down.

It was a careers office and they gave that up.

They hosted a session talking about remote working during Denver Startup Week.

But as far as I understand it, all those people are gone now.

Letting Shog go is pretty... symbolic.

I wrote an angry blog article about something once, and Shog was like "hey, before you go writing and complaining, talk to us first"

And he fixed the problem

Times they have changed

Tinkeringbell

Of course they have, that kind of stuff isn't sustainable when you have over 170 sites and millions of angry users.

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE on the other hand

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Well I wonder if we need to start a gofundme for Joel, these servers don't cost that much...

Journeyman Geek

2:32 PM

Jeff owned this crowd

He wasn't actually SE's CEO very long but its hard to find an old timer who hadn't seen him around, or butted heads with him

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Anyway, if we just en masse left and took all the content somewhere. I mean, I pay literally like $5/mo for my server I think. DigitalOcean or whatever.

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE actually?

Tinkeringbell

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE There's a few snatches with that...

Journeyman Geek

The tech side is probably cheap to run

the people...

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Yeah but this chat has a new feature since when?

Since never. I started room 291, and I want my data out.

Journeyman Geek

2:34 PM

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE People :D

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Florian has made Miaou and it's evolving: miaou.dystroy.org/static/intro.html

So I don't want to hear how much software dev at SE costs.

Tinkeringbell

I thought about packing up e.g. IPS and leaving... but it's not as easy since the site came out of beta before the new 'you need an existing community for a proposal' rule on A51... So we're kinda still looking for those people and moving to something that's not as big/well-known... it might destroy what's there.

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Building a community is hard

Tinkeringbell

^^

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Destroying it is pretty easy, it appears.

Journeyman Geek

2:35 PM

I couldn't build a community

I'm apparently pretty good at keeping one running

Tinkeringbell

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Depends on how close knit the community is, and how well they can/are willing to support each other in times like this...

HostileFork says dont trust SE

I really don't have time. I have a lot of crap to do. So having to pick fights with SE when I liked the idea of "okay, you got that part covered, great!"

Tinkeringbell

Usually though if one sheep leaves the flock, more will follow

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE no one's really asking you to pick a fight

If I find somewhere better, at most I'd end up dragging along a dozen people. But all those people are lot more than a number.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Everyone I like is leaving and changing their name in a way that plasters their disapproval on every post they make.

Journeyman Geek

2:37 PM

At the same time, I want to give the folks I care about the best way they can to fix things

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Even people I kind of argued with (e.g. Lightness) are pissed off.

Journeyman Geek

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE SO, I see this going three ways

the people who don't like how things work win

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Not happening.

Journeyman Geek

SE survives, makes a giant pile of money, and loses its soul

Tinkeringbell

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE That's hard, but it's not something you can personally fix...

Journeyman Geek

2:39 PM

They fail.

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek 1/3 and counting

Journeyman Geek

We pick up the pieces and we rebuild

@AndrasDeak survival isn't a given

3) there's a viable alternative with reasonable resources

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Internet Archaeologists Find Ruins Of 'Friendster' Civilization

►

Journeyman Geek

I move. I try to start again

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek the 1 is "loses its soul" :P

Journeyman Geek

2:40 PM

But being mad fixes nothing

Rob

Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall (HQ)

►

Andras Deak

Hey, teacher....leave 'em newbs alone

Rob

Pink Floyd - Welcome to the Machine (1975)

►

HostileFork says dont trust SE

@Rob Got the box set right here, so. Make me an offer.

Really it's just taking up space at this point.

Journeyman Geek

checks

I have a slightly mouldy dog treat and some pocket lint

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:45 PM

What kind of treat

Journeyman Geek

Home made

Whole wheat, and olive oil

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Well that could be anything. Anyway, it's actually my girlfriend's box set but she doesn't need it.

Tinkeringbell

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Before you sell it... are you very, very, very sure? :P

Maybe it's taking up space that would otherwise be empty, so it's a good decoration :P

HostileFork says dont trust SE

I am a minimalist. I don't like having "things". metaeducation.com/media/shared/apartment/gallery

Tinkeringbell

But things! :D

Depends on the kind of things of course... but things ;)

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:48 PM

It is interesting, especially as one gets older, to watch people going through this long and constant process of... thing-having.

Tinkeringbell

I have memories? :)

Rob

We'd obviously prefer your box set of The Onion

HostileFork says dont trust SE

"Take a picture, it will last longer." It's not just a cute saying.

It's like, true.

@Rob some music that nobody wrote

Tinkeringbell

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Not just pictures.

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek nooo don't put wheat in dog treats :(

HostileFork says dont trust SE

2:52 PM

When I quit Microsoft Research I went to film school in LA.

Andras Deak

use oatmeal, or rice

HostileFork says dont trust SE

And it was actually rather arduous.

Tough business.

I'm not cut out for that.

Laf - Reinstate Monica

@AndrasDeak Why not use wheat? Is it dangerous to dogs? Or just not that good for them?

Andras Deak

@Laf-ReinstateMonica Just not good. Gluten shouldn't be near a dog's diet. That's also a great filter for "premium" dog food that's actually crap.

Gimby

wheat is a bit of a dangerous topic in general. I don't eat it myself, I'm not going to explain why. It can lead to some very nasty discussions.

Andras Deak

2:55 PM

of course I can imagine exotic situations when a dog is allergic to many things and wheat is the least of many evils, but that has to be very rare

Laf - Reinstate Monica

@AndrasDeak I didn't know that, thanks for the info ;)

HostileFork says dont trust SE

@Tinkeringbell Regarding my remark about pronouns in the chat you froze--I want it known that I am a real hard core rights supporter, will be first in line to say an AI deserves rights to the proportion of abilities. One of my favorite people I've met here is Morwenn, who has helped my project a bunch. I just don't like being pushed around.

Laf - Reinstate Monica

Is this the moment someone shouts that they are vegan? Sounds like the timing is good :P

BlueSoul

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE you are the one who wrote those?

HostileFork says dont trust SE

The Game Changers | Official Trailer

►

@Laf-ReinstateMonica ^-- I had free tickets to that, went. Didn't know what it was about. Went sight unseen.

@BlueSoul Blessed is he who spares these stones, and cursed is he who moves these bones.

Tinkeringbell

2:58 PM

@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I don't even remember what room you're talking about, and I don't think I want any reminders but... it's probably not important to start that discussion again. Rules are set, you either live by them or not.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Bad rules should not be silently tolerated.

I dunno if you are a programmer, but I am.

Tinkeringbell

I do write code for a living, yes.

HostileFork says dont trust SE

Are you good? :-)

Tinkeringbell

whether or not the rule is bad is not an argument I'm having with anyone though...

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