Tavern on the Meta

It's virtually impossible to get any answers out of Stack Exchange anymore due to a toxic culture of moderators who instinctively put questions on hold and close them before reading the question. Have some examples: Are there any calendar and notes apps for the iPhone (iOS 12.4) that don't requ...

Ugh, honestly, is this a bigger concern of toxicity, or closing questions?

-4

Q: Modest proposal: How about paying employees to review?

Update: changed moderate to review, sorry I've been progressively less active over the years, and like so many others, I gave up curating as a Sisyphean task ages ago. Popping back in here recently I see that the debate is still raging, and apparently is no closer to resolution. I would sugges...

discussion

I like the originality of this idea

But of course doing that would help them understand the mods but it won't help with the employee positive experience thing

forest

heh, that close reason seems to be rubbing salt in the wound

"Help, moderators are cosing all these questions! See a list of questions on all these different sites that were closed." -> "Closed because this question is only applicable to one single site."

Meta Andrew T.

no moderators closing the question though

forest

Well I can see how a new user would confuse a 10ker with a moderator.

Not that I think his question is good or even on-topic, of course...

rene

10:53 AM

@JourneymanGeek is this better?

Shadow The Dragon Wizard

@rene it's closed now, time for delete vote. :)

M.A.R.

@ShadowTheDragonWizard Hey Sha, long time no chat . . . for some reason

Shadow The Dragon Wizard

@M.A.R. you missed my Den ping? :(

M.A.R.

11:09 AM

@ShadowTheDragonWizard Maybe, I dunno

Journeyman Geek

@rene significantly

M.A.R.

@rene sinfigicantly

Shadow The Dragon Wizard

@M.A.R. :(

M.A.R.

@ShadowTheDragonWizard :((

forest

11:35 AM

Wow, according to web.archive.org/web/20100426125115/http://www.mattmcdole.com/…, Jeff Atwood seems to dox people in public (using admin power to reveal email and IP), then retroactively change privacy policy to allow it.

I mean granted, this was from 2009, but still. It shows his character. :/

I can see why so many people had a problem with him when he still worked here.

Journeyman Geek

Oh, the famous boat programming question

M.A.R.

@forest Huh, where? AFAIK he hated that question so much though

forest

@M.A.R. Scroll down to "I am leaving this around for reference [...]"

Journeyman Geek

erf.

the unability to post images directly off my clipboard on chat is cramping my nonexistant style

M.A.R.

Well, FWIW, people are realizing now how his . . . antisocial techniques were for a more durable SO

forest

11:42 AM

@M.A.R. Oh those things I'm not complaining about.

M.A.R.

@forest Oh, saw that. Well, can't say it was out-of-character, really

forest

But doxing? Violating privacy?

Meta Andrew T.

  __    __
o-''))_____\\
"--__/ * * * )
c_c__/-c____/

forest

I used to run a website and a mod took a screenshot that happened to have some poster's IP address on the page. The next week I implemented IP anonymization to prevent that from happening.

M.A.R.

@forest It's 2009 we're talking about. I think (despite my young age then) there was less concern for those things than there is now.

forest

11:43 AM

So to see such blatant abuse of privacy on this website, even a decade ago, is not nice.

@M.A.R. I think it was the other way around.

Back then, it mattered far more, since the internet was still the wild west.

That was the era of powerwords and the like. Privacy mattered back then.

M.A.R.

Well, exactly

The "rules" weren't as rigid as they are now.

Obviously, doesn't excuse his behavior, but puts it in a context

forest

Oh well yeah, now we have stuff like the GDPR that make it really rigid.

M.A.R.

A bit too rigid loosens belt ouch

forest

> In fact, this post is in violation of SO's privacy policy: "Stack Overflow also collects potentially personally-identifying information like Internet Protocol (IP) addresses. Stack Overflow does not use such information to identify its visitors, however, and does not disclose such information". Even if this person was a blatant and abusive spammer I don't think it would be right for you to release publically their IP address and email address (fake or not). – KingNestor yesterday

> updating the privacy policy for this exception. – Jeff Atwood moderator 12 hours ago

:D

Unrelated but... oh my god 2009 was 10 years ago. has nervous breakdown

M.A.R.

IKR

Sounds like we're too invested in everyday trivialities to notice time passing by

Or is that called growing up?

forest

11:47 AM

It's crazy how much has changed. Now it's like... "zomg staff are literally having panic attacks, shaking and screaming uncontrollably for possibly hours on end at the mere thought of posting on Meta".

But back then it was like "lol here's the dude's dox xd"

M.A.R.

Haha

So you're saying Joel should give them military training?

forest

I think they would actually die if they had to go through military training.

M.A.R.

Like that teacher in Starship Troopers

forest

I think it should be baby steps first. Perhaps, after a long relaxation session, allow them to read the words "I'm sorry, but I disagree" out loud. Once they can handle that, change it to "you're wrong". Eventually, if they do it enough and have therapists on standby the whole time, they might be able to think about posting on Meta, at least conceptually, without having a panic attack.

Tinkeringbell

Ooookay. Time to stop it I guess...

Please? Change of topic?

M.A.R.

11:53 AM

Sometimes reviewing close votes on Chem is depressing

forest

@Tinkeringbell Sure. Sorry, I just like complaining about policies and privacy.

M.A.R.

Some people have no idea what they wanna do

forest

@M.A.R. How so?

Mithrandir

When in doubt, blow stuff up.

forest

Careful! I used to be a bit of a pyro.

M.A.R.

11:54 AM

@Mithrandir I wish, but it's usually things that don't even blow up

forest

I'll always find an excuse to blow things up. :P

Mithrandir

(Also, please allow me to go get pizza without things going wrong in here....)

Tinkeringbell

@forest Are you Adam Savage?

M.A.R.

That gives a whole different meaning to forest fires

forest

No way. He cares way too much about safety.

I was the kid who made 50 feet of toilet paper fuse to ignite a gallon of gasoline.

Tinkeringbell

11:55 AM

@forest I thought you did that too, with your infosec stuff :P Isn't security a form of safety too? :P

forest

But got stopped because the fuse kept extinguishing.

Hey I like fixing security and breaking it!

M.A.R.

Actually, I've been a pretty safe kid, now that I think about it

My little brother almost set the apartment on fire once, however. Does that count.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Definitely. Or you would've stopped him :P

M.A.R.

-1

Q: Home made chalk paint

I am trying to make chalk paint using calcium carbonate but the paint is gritty because the calcium carbonate doesn't dissolve. Any ideas on what I can use to dissolve the calcium carbonate that won't ruin the paint when I add it?

acid-base

forest

wot

Mithrandir

11:57 AM

I've ridden my bike down multiple hundreds of stairs at once. I've never really played with fire, though. I like to think I have a bit of common sense.

Tinkeringbell

I set a drawing on fire once... because mom put lit candles on the crafts table!

M.A.R.

We like to think that too, Mith.

It's called wishful thinking.

Mithrandir

Fair point.

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. there's a root access regular who has had... multiple accidents

mangled fingers, broken arm...

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek Bruce Willis

forest

11:58 AM

Isn't there some blog about dangerous chemistry, where some chemist talks about all the substances he wouldn't touch with a 50 foot poll?

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell Well, my brother wanted to burn socks . . . or a hat. I forgot.

Why? I also forgot.

Needless to say, the elevator smelled like burnt rubber for a week.

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. i got shocked once

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Eeewl.

Journeyman Geek

set my finger harmlessly on fire...

Mithrandir

Lesson learned, don't have M.A.R. remember anything important.

Tinkeringbell

12:00 PM

@JourneymanGeek Oooh! Once when he was very young, my oldest brother went out to watch some ponies. He managed to grab and hold on to the electrified wire running behind the fence... Dad had to get him loose somehow XD

M.A.R.

@forest It doesn't need to be exotic. Lots of routine reactions (that noob undergrads perform as well in labs) might produce cyanide

forest

@M.A.R. Yeah but there's a difference between that and anything with the word "tetranitro" in it.

M.A.R.

@Mithrandir I'm gonna deliberately forget you said that

forest

Now you know what was fun? Plugging two 9v batteries into each other, wrapping them in toilet paper, and throwing them in a school garbage can and quickly walking away. Takes ~3 minutes.

M.A.R.

Yeah. Deaths are boring. WE WANT CGI MICHAEL BAY HOT SH!T

Mithrandir

12:01 PM

@forest s/fun/extremely dangerous and stupid, but sure

M.A.R.

Sadly, the worst I've been electrified with was 3 v batteries

Not sure it was even electrocution.

forest

Technically electrocution is death by electricity. So, probably not.

M.A.R.

Nobody's gonna mention blowing up sodium in water?

forest

@Mithrandir No, putting wax in the fire alarm at the same time is dangerous and stupid.

(Not that I did that, of course. That borders on homicidal.)

M.A.R.

Heh. Mint in coke. When life was fun.

@forest ohohoho of course

Bullies in movies are so one-dimensional that I wonder if they do things like that IRL

forest

12:05 PM

Nah, they're usually not clever enough.

They just intimidate people and beat them.

There's a big difference between a pyro and a bully. One wants to see the world burn. The other just wants to see people burn (no offense meant to [censored] edgeplay fans!).

M.A.R.

Eh, um

Will someone tell him? I'm going to tell him.

Tinkeringbell

K

forest

what

Tinkeringbell

Room is PG13 @forest... can you keep the kinks down?

forest

fix'd

M.A.R.

12:07 PM

No I was actually about to make a joke.

People ⊂ world

Tinkeringbell

@forest Sort of... That's like mopping up. I'd appreciate it if you took some time to actually fix the leak too.

M.A.R.

Math is weird. What kind of a sign is that.

BTW, have any of you watched Nightcrawler?

I still can't get over how awesome it was.

forest

Or MA or AO, or whatever the adult equivalent of PG13 is. (I don't watch a lot of TV)

M.A.R.

PhD

Can we just change the subject?

You should go watch Nightcrawler. It's really good.

forest

All these subject changes are making my head spin.

M.A.R.

12:09 PM

Reeeeally good.

We can talk about spinning heads

Tinkeringbell

Owls, or zombies?

M.A.R.

Wolfgang Schmitt (apparently a wise German movie critic) said the real message behind the movie is not just some commentary on TV media

@Tinkeringbell No, nothing like that

That's been done a hundred times. I'm kinda sick of that.

forest

fine fiiine

M.A.R.

What it really is is a commentary on capitalism

Journeyman Geek

from all the headspinning?

FOR REFERENCE

since I needed to look it up

Shadow The Dragon Wizard

12:11 PM

I think Israel won the Judo world championship just now

forest

@JourneymanGeek It's giving me a sore neck. :(

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. You didn't take your motion sickness tablets?

M.A.R.

They suck here. We only have Dimenhydrinate

forest

Wait, why were those messages deleted? I didn't use any words you didn't use. >_>

M.A.R.

I wonder if I spelled it right

Journeyman Geek

12:12 PM

wikipedia page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightcrawler_(film)

Tinkeringbell

@forest Because it was a useless discussion that doesn't need to flare up again. We don't just delete stuff for words used.

Journeyman Geek

(apparently has nothing to do with the X man)

forest

Oh, that makes sense I guess.

Tinkeringbell

And you're not suspended so it was general clean up and not aimed at you directly or you'd be chat suspended by now.

M.A.R.

Jake Gyllenhaal is always a delightful watch. More so in this one

forest

12:13 PM

Yeah, I get that. I'll keep it PG13. As long as I can still smoke weed.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. I've heard rumours about coca cola helping too

forest

afk for fun stuff, bbiab

M.A.R.

So, get this, people have three levels of interpreting it. Most superficially, he's Norman Bates meets Wolf of Wall Street. One level higher, it's a criticism of LA TV news. The finest level of understanding the movie and his character is a zeitgeist; the perfect creation of the environment

Tinkeringbell

@forest Woah... you need to go afk for fun stuff?! Have fun! :D

@M.A.R. Okay, you've lost me.

forest

That makes no sense to me either.

M.A.R.

12:22 PM

@Tinkeringbell Just trust me, it's a great movie. What I say would make much more sense once you see it because Jake's performance is one of those one-of-a-kind rarities. It's like trying to explain The Dark Knight's Joker to someone. It's never going to be remotely as good as feeling it in the movie itself.

Tinkeringbell

Which movie?!

M.A.R.

Nightcrawler

Tinkeringbell

Don't know it.

Is it on Netflix?

Journeyman Geek

Nightcrawler (film)

Nightcrawler is a 2014 American thriller film written and directed by Dan Gilroy in his feature directorial debut. It stars Jake Gyllenhaal as Louis Bloom, a stringer who records violent events late at night in Los Angeles and sells the footage to a local television news station. Rene Russo, Riz Ahmed, and Bill Paxton also star. A common theme in the film is the symbiotic relationship between unethical journalism and consumer demand. Gilroy originally wanted to make a film about the life of American photographer Weegee but switched focus after discovering the unique narrative possibilities ...

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell Apparently, per Google. I really don't know how that stuff works, so.

Tinkeringbell

12:25 PM

@M.A.R. Much like TV: You pay, you watch. Only now you're in charge of scheduling and there's (almost no) ads.

M.A.R.

Do I pay for TV? Scratches head

Oh, that explains the quality

@Tinkeringbell When it gets to things like this, you should really imagine a Victorian era setting for Iran. Yes, we talk through cans as phone :p

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. That bad? But they can do kidney transplants!

I used to have cans as phone...

Wonder if mom kept those too

M.A.R.

That was an alternate reality. Hashtag SCIENZE Hashtag believable_excuses

forest

12:45 PM

Why does foo_bar_baz not work but foo*bar*baz does? See foo_bar_baz vs foobarbaz.

The markup is weird. I thought * and _ were supposed to be treated the same.

Journeyman Geek

12:59 PM

@Tinkeringbell maybe they use leeches

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Eeewl. I saw one once. Gross.

Besides... Can we not talk about leeches when I'm at the doctor's office? :p

Journeyman Geek

1:38 PM

@Tinkeringbell which case I'll... delay the article I was going to share ;p

Tinkeringbell

1:50 PM

@JourneymanGeek I'm good. Nothing wrong with me, so bring it on ;)

Journeyman Geek

boingboing.net/2019/08/28/brown-recluse-spider-extracted.html (probably not a good idea to click on if spiders scare you)

rene

Nothing wrong with me ... I only posted the quote ...

Tinkeringbell

@rene XD I have some kind of inflamed scar-wart apparently.

@JourneymanGeek Oh, that's just an ear-spider. I can handle those stories :P Better than slimy leeches.

Feeds

The company started out exploiting a loophole in the law banning scooters. The city was mad at first, but then they noticed how much they were saving on street cleaning.

Journeyman Geek

2:09 PM

@Tinkeringbell actually....

Tinkeringbell

@Feeds Today I learned on Facebook that they make roomba's to clean barbecues.

Journeyman Geek

leeches are used in modern medicine in some cases

@Tinkeringbell 0_0

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek This one... < Not my ad :P

Journeyman Geek

ah

Magisch

2:45 PM

@JourneymanGeek They are. Maggots too for cleaning wounds

Journeyman Geek

yup

I didn't particularly want to mention that at this point, and leeches are a dark ages medical thrope

Mithrandir

4:22 PM

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

404

5:31 PM

@404 Indeed, these were the correct top 5 - confirmed by Glorfindel's complete list of Marshals with flag counts

> 264. סטנלי גרונן, 2471 helpful flags

RTL strikes again

M.A.R.

6:44 PM

@404 بله خیلی اعصاب خورد کن است.

The punctuation is on the left eye roll

404

6:56 PM

I have a hunch that Tezos might be having an election.

rene

I couldn't have guessed

404

The 5th clue is the site-wide system-info banner (on the main site, not on meta)

Despite all of these clues, @ArtOfCode's site does not list Tezos.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:12 PM

@404 It has to be manually added, and ArtOfCode has refused to add sites with elections very far out.

404

It's happening now, fwiw.

Not that anyone cares, within or outside the site.

Jenna Sloan

Hey, does anyone know why the "invite this user to a room" and "create a new room with a user" options are not showing for me on chat.stackoverflow.com?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JennaSloan On one specific user's profile, or all users' profiles?

M.A.R.

@JennaSloan They show elsewhere?

Jenna Sloan

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog on all user profiles

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:21 PM

If the former, the user has already been invited to all rooms you're currently in by anyone, at any time in the past, and the user hasn't entered the room(s) since. Invites don't expire.

@JennaSloan If the latter, it means you've been kicked three consecutive times for a 30-minute ban, which indefinitely bans you from creating new rooms or inviting users to existing rooms. A moderator can lift this ban.

Jenna Sloan

@M.A.R. they show up in the stackexchange chat and the meta chat, but not the stackoverflow chat.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm not sure I understand.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JennaSloan Try going to chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/new. Do you get an error message about being banned from creating new rooms?

Jenna Sloan

It says "You are currently banned from creating new rooms."

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JennaSloan So then you'll need to convince a Stack Overflow moderator to lift this ban. Once they do, the invite options will show up.

If you get kick-muted from a chat room three times in a row (and get a 30-minute kickban), you get automatically indefinitely banned from inviting users and creating rooms.

404

Is this the only form of getting banned indefinitely on SE?

Everything else I can think of is timed.

Time heals all wounds... except for three kicks in chat within 30 minutes.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:31 PM

@404 The question and answer quality bans (yes, there's a one-post-per-6-month exemption, but if you count the imposition of the rate limit itself, it's indefinite)

Jenna Sloan

So getting kicked from a room three times in a row makes it impossible to invite users or create rooms? That's just stupid.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@404 You happen to come across two users who were "indefinitely" banned on the SE chat server? Basically, they were banned for 417 days (9,999 hours), then once that ban expired, it was again reimposed, and then again a third time last week.

I wonder why the mod didn't use the client-side hack to perform a 3,200+ year suspension...

@JennaSloan How long ago were these kicks?

Jenna Sloan

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog More than a week ago

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I'd suggest avoiding getting kicked for a bit longer. At least a few months.

Jenna Sloan

The reason I was kicked was because a room owner thought I was "annoying", but neglected to tell me this until after kicking me three times in a row.

M.A.R.

7:47 PM

@JennaSloan C'est la vie

404

@Feeds Roomba-riding reminded me of Externalities, a dynamic April 1 comic from back when. Doesn't even load anymore because of mixed content.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JennaSloan Legal threats won't get you anywhere, and essentially only serve to anger people.

404

C'est la vie said the old mods, it goes to show you never can chat.

Jenna Sloan

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog What do you mean?

M.A.R.

Yeah that was weird

He probably means telling you you're annoying would have only escalated the situation

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

7:50 PM

@JennaSloan Your restriction has been lifted

I've spoken to an SO mod and they've agreed to lift it

Mithrandir

@404 Pretty sure it does automatically lift after a while.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

8:12 PM

@Mithrandir No, it does not.

Mithrandir

8:23 PM

@ZachSaucier Yes, but only moderators can do that. — balpha Sep 11 '14 at 14:44

I have never seen this option anywhere.

Oh, probably because it's... there. Hidden.

ArtOfCode

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog adding sites manually is getting old fast, which ain't surprising, but it's hard to find a way to get a list automatically

fbueckert

In further news on the adventures of trying to get solar panels installed, my project manager is no longer with the company.

rene

He saw the light?

fbueckert

Or he lost the light.

I'm just waiting on something like...two more action items, and it should be done.

rene

8:55 PM

@fbueckert 2 actin items: plug it in and switch it on?

fbueckert

@rene Bi-directional meter (grid-tie system), and finishing off the permit requirements with the municipality.

Then I can turn it on.

404

9:13 PM

Is CVQ graph dead?

socvr.azurewebsites.net

It looks like the queue rebounded after hitting its modern-time low in the midst of 3-vote experiment.

rene

9:33 PM

@404 the mysql instance is, so yeah

still paying for it ...

@fbueckert doesn't sound too complicated ....

Catija

10:07 PM

@rene The request I made for the protections-related script is this: stackapps.com/questions/7698/…

rene

Thanks, I made the change there as well.

fbueckert

10:43 PM

@rene Famous last words.

They punted my project manager, and now I'm dealing with the CEO directly, it seems.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

11:07 PM

@rene @Shadow Now that I have 20k+ rep, please add me to the del-pls pings.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

11:22 PM

Did Shog just mark a question as a duplicate purely for symbolic reasons?

This is not, strictly-speaking, a dup... But someone foolishly voted to close in the other direction, and should probably do a bit of thinking as to whether they want to retain their close-vote privileges here before casting any more votes. — Shog9 ♦ 4 mins ago

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