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404
1:13 AM
> I am a fan of tezos and have made some clearly worded questions. I have used stackoverflow regularly for several years and would be happy to facilitate monitoring.
Candidate score 0/40.
All around, a model candidate for modern-day beta-site elections.
Bonus points for being named Rob. No relation to another mod Rob and that other mod Rob, as far as I can tell.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:16 AM
@404 Feature request: require a minimum candidate score for default nominations
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Actually - something that could be made a point for on meta. And something I kinda feel is a potential weakness on younger meta sites
speaking of which
 
Well, appointing moderators by default isn't a hard, fast rule; technically they are still appointed in the same manner as they used to be before pro-tem elections, so SE could refuse to appoint them. I'll have to wait and see how this goes before I have enough info for a meta post.
 
meh, there's no need to be perfect, only to make a compelling arguement
 
"don't appoint mods with zero candidate score and not much answering activity" - what if they don't even appoint them in the first place?
If they do, then it's a good meta post.
And if they end up withdrawing or SE removes the nomination due to a prior suspension, it's all moot.
Then it'll be just hypothetical.
 
On the other hand
barring the ability for folks to get a reasonable candidate score in an election (pets had one of those situations where you had 4-5 great candidates with low candidate scores) - what makes someone pro-tem mod material?
 
2:25 AM
What are the criteria SE would judge them by back in the era before pro-tem elections?
 
Honestly? No idea
 
@JourneymanGeek The bar should be low, but high enough that they should have either earned a couple thousand reputation or earned a couple of the candidate badges.
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog on beta sites?
 
And a lot of the candidate badges are super easy to earn.
 
its insanely hard in some cases
 
2:27 AM
e.g. the Cleanup badge is awarded for clicking the "rollback" button on a post. It's a candidate badge.
 
I suspect my first diamond (sr.se) was heavily influenced by my activity on SU (I wasn't on meta much then)
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog well, how does that make someone a potentially good mod?
 
A single post with a score of 2 on the per-site meta - Quorum. That's also a candidate badge.
Basically, they should show at least some effort actually engaging in moderation. (which will in turn easily earn them some lower-level candidate badges)
I can count around four candidate badges that are super easy to earn with a little bit of moderation.
So I'd say it's no issue to require pro-tem mods being appointed by default to have at least a candidate score of 2.
 
404
Eh. The current requirement - being able to fog a mirror - seems to work well enough for SE.
 
@404 eh. I'm sure there's perfectly folks who's be perfectly good mods via ouija board.
In theory - least in the current scheme of things, a new site should already have a reasonable critical mass of users to survive, those blockchain sites aside.
and a natural concequence of that is there ought to be folks who actually have at least a little leadership potential.
 
@Feeds this is not how roomba works on SE...
or, that should be how roomba work on SE...
my "morning" got roomba'ed though...
 
404
2:44 AM
I'm so not keeping track of gadgets, but "iPhone XS Max" sounds like someone ran out of any ideas for model names.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:01 AM
39 messages moved to Chimney
 
 
2 hours later…
6:51 AM
I'm guessing someone got banned and thinks they're such a clever troll now?
 
@forest Yep, they're a known troll to Charcoal-ers
 
How long have they been doing this?
 
@forest First activity in September 2015
 
7:06 AM
jesus
 
7:23 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog will do. Cheers!
As for the dupe crisis I agree with Shog and Catija, you were very wrong to close the other discussion as dupe of your own feature request.
Shog overreacted, but still... please think twice and thrice before voting to close as dupe.
 
The man never overreacts.
 
The overreaction never mans.
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard The real issue is, my previous title of the post was so similar to Catija's that I ended up confusing the posts and copying the link to the wrong one in the duplicate dialog. I was kinda tired looking for the post since I remembered only much later that the duplicate dialog search feature (incorrectly) excludes unanswered questions.
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard muu
 
7:33 AM
@ShadowTheDragonWizard mum
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog still, none is dupe of the other
@rene ur
@MetaAndrewT. moo
 
In fact, they were the exact same URL slug, so the selection dialog in Chrome for Android did essentially nothing to help me differentiate easily (without having memorized the post IDs).
 
Link to the drama?
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Yes, I agree, and that's what the review process is all about.
 
@forest Sonic linked to Shog comment somewhere
 
7:35 AM
8 hours ago, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog
Did Shog just mark a question as a duplicate purely for symbolic reasons?
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog but if you had a hammer?
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard I don't have a hammer
 
But you might have, one day
 
Wow, he did overreact. Talk about chilling effect.
 
Shog has buttons too.
He's human.
 
7:36 AM
@forest you always show up at the right moment, don't you?
 
It sounds like something, coming from anyone else, I'd report for abuse.
 
Yeah, I was actually checking my tag scores, and I have 812 in the tag. But 147 answers short.
 
@rene Notice I was here a little before as well.
 
@forest agree, but Shog is, well, special. :)
 
@forest for the previous drama ;)
 
7:36 AM
But that makes me think... if I flag it for threatening people, will I get my flag privileges removed?
Am I permitted to flag a moderator's comment if it's threatening and rude?
 
@forest he can't do it, just suspend you
 
Shog once chat-banned me and one other user for an hour simply because we flagged a shouty message from a CM.
 
wow
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog that's a ban, not suspension
 
7:37 AM
@forest yes. The consequences are yours.
 
Different wording helps to remember which is what.
 
If I am suspended by Shog for daring to assuming he should be held to the same standards as everyone else, are there any mods here that I could appeal to?
Because the chilling effect is real.
 
@forest no since he's above all mods
Your only way will be to submit a ticket
 
hm
 
He's a CM, not a mere-mod
 
7:38 AM
In theory Tim is more senior than Shog, but...
 
@forest yes, the contact us form
 
@forest You send a letter to SE senior management: meta.stackexchange.com/a/317661/377214
 
@rene Last time I did that, it took about a month to get a reply.
 
FWIW, he's the standard.
 
@forest That is within 6 to 8 weeks
 
7:39 AM
hm
So here I am, seeing a rude/abusive and threatening comment from a moderator, and I'm unsure as to whether or not I am allowed to flag it without being punished.
Can I say "if he suspends me, then Stack Exchange is going to have a big problem?". Or are threats and rude replies only permitted by mods which are supposedly held to high standards?
 
29
Q: How could I have handled this better in chat (flag apparently led to suspension)?

Robert ColumbiaI was recently suspended in chat here on Meta.SE. I would like to know how I could have handled this situation better and avoided a suspension. Link to transcript: https://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/conversation/suspended-due-to-a-flag I was in the Tavern on the Meta chatroom here on...

 
@forest naw. You're just making more drama than is needed
 
@JourneymanGeek Eh, this isn't me making drama.
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog tbh. Phones totally suck for... Anything
Might be worth waiting or throwing a link in here if there's a risk of mistaken post identity
 
@forest it does sound that way. Tone it down a notch.
 
7:45 AM
@forest Speaking of this comment, it's unnecessary and only serves to dramatize the situation. If it is to come up on meta, please let me be the one to make the post.
 
@forest CM is not a moderator. They handle much more crap, and IMO we can give them slack even if it means they're not always friendly and sending love to everyone. All good.
Now time for.....
!!/coffee
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard brews a cup of Macchiato for @ShadowTheDragonWizard
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog agreed
 
Is the DAG team disbanded?
 
7:48 AM
seems so
 
For loooong time, since Joe left
Joe was the living spirit of DAG, probably
@MeganRisdal can probably tell us more about what became of DAG, i.e. what they have in place now instead of it?
 
WOOF team
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard isn't it replaced with PQ&A?
 
8:09 AM
Its called the community team now
Not to be confused with the community team
 
Yay, I'm back. I've learned my lesson and will not say curses like "holy s**t" anymore.
 
@MetaAndrewT. naw. Not enough doggos on staff
 
If I flagged a similar or identical message elsewhere but the flag vanished, do I re-flag?
Or will the "is this a valid flag" message go to the same three (two?) people?
 
I've also learnt my lesson, and there's a great feature that I seldom use (using it now)
 
What lesson did you learn lol. you weren't suspended, were you?
 
8:36 AM
So this is the chat API, apparently (thanks to @rene for pointing me to it). My god, it's ugly...
 
I know... everything you didn't write ends up getting that label :P
It's getting old.
 
Hey, I wasn't the first person here to call out the chat for being ugly. >_>
Journey was the first one who told me that. It's unmaintained, apparently?
 
I don't think it's really unmaintained, they at least keep it up and running :)
 
true
Though I do miss Twitter oneboxing.
 
Bye bye chat in 3, 2, 1
Especially considering Twitter is blocked here
 
8:41 AM
s/the chat/the chat API/
@M.A.R. Huh?
 
I miss ranting about Amazon oneboxes
 
@Tinkeringbell Wait a sec... did I ever complain about an API here other than the chat one? O_o
tries to think of what might be getting old
 
@forest Especially considering Twitter is blocked here
 
@forest You surely did complain about ugly or wrong code or something before.
 
@Tinkeringbell I complained about the chat API before, but now I know the full extent of its ugliness. And fwiw, my code is usually no better. :D
 
8:43 AM
There's no real chat API
so there's nothing to particularly complain about
 
I think there's just no stable API, but the client-side JS uses the API.
After all, it's using something to communicate with the servers!
 
Actually, I think one of the former devs was working on that
@forest smoke signals!
 
Aw, not RFC 1149?
IPoAC master race!
 
the audit trail is too messy
 
@Tinkeringbell Now, if you want my opinion on pretty code, read the OpenBSD coreutils source!
It's actually remarkably neat and well-written. Very easy to become familiar with.
 
8:45 AM
@forest the "chat API" is entirely reverse engineered
 
Yeah I'm not surprised.
 
I suspect the ones for the python based chatbots might be prettier
 
Though
You're not supposed to reverse engineer these things and hack yourself into the site ;) ... cheers! — rene 37 mins ago
I find the discrimination against reverse engineers saddening!
;)
 
@forest I'm still on vacation. What makes you think I even want to think about code, let alone read it? :P
 
Maybe you need to hack up a quick Python script during vacation!
 
8:50 AM
Nah. During vacation I crochet and read.
And order stuff online.
 
And handle flags
 
Speaking of which, my flag was validated and I didn't get suspended for raising it! Yay!
 
@forest Yeah. Next time NLN works too.
 
NLN?
 
@M.A.R. I spent a week or two not handling any flags either :)
@forest no longer needed.
 
8:53 AM
Well I was going to use RA for the veiled threat, but I wanted to ensure that my reasoning was written down to reduce the chance of getting suspended over raising it.
It'd be nice if all flag reasons allowed you to add a custom message.
(All flag reasons handled by moderators, that is, so not things like VLQ)
 
@forest Just remember that moderators sometimes need to moderate, which does mean letting people know there will be consequences.
 
Oh sure, but this seemed to be another clear overreaction and threat.
Not a normal, private moderator response that involves discussion between other mods.
 
Oh well, then keep flagging stuff like that that way and there might be consequences for you too...
I can't guarantee that everyone will handle flags the same way I do.
 
@Tinkeringbell Is flagging threats not allowed?
What is "that way"? Using custom messages? Flagging a comment a CM made?
 
that way is the way I just handled your flag.
 
8:58 AM
Well if I'm breaking any rules by raising flags, I would like to know!
Since you insinuated that I am breaking rules by raising flags that way, at least.
 
@Tinkeringbell Wow, it is a vacation
 
At least, it'd be better to know now than to need to write yet another MSE question.
@Tinkeringbell So, if you could elaborate, I would appreciate it very much.
 
Blank look
Pretends he comprehends the messages
 
I wish I comprehended it too. :)
 
You were the one that started with 'reduce the chance of getting suspended over raising it'. I told you that no longer needed would've sufficed for that comment, and that if you kept flagging stuff with messages like you did, someone else might not just delete the comments but tell you to stop it too...

What part of the convo is unclear?
@M.A.R. Same here. I just want to get back to crochet.
 
9:02 AM
@Tinkeringbell Ah, thanks for explaining!
I will be sure to avoid use of the custom message option in the future.
If only AI was sophisticated enough to automate this stuff. :(
It's come a long way, but its ability to detect complicated context is wanting.
Totally unrelated, but does chat support embedded SVG? (with <img>, not <svg> of course)
 
I hope not.
 
Why not?
With <img> it doesn't support embedded JavaScript or other common nasties.
 
9:18 AM
I should have an answer to that but I don't feel like digging it up from 2015.
 
meh. Lemme test it. I'm just being lazy I guess.
Oh, so it does support SVG.
 
Have I walked into the Computer Architecture class?
101 obviously ...
 
I just took a random image from Wikipedia to test if SVG embedding was supported here.
Also that's not computer architecture. An LFSR is a mathematical construct, not hardware.
LFSR was the first thing I thought of because of sci-hub.tw/10.1109/ETNCC.2011.5958486.
Oh my god. I clicked the browser back button to get that link and now it's giving me 500. :/
Sometimes that site really annoys me.
 
@forest hey, it has been a while and I'm trained in business economics. Be happy I kind of get what it is ...
 
It's a bad PRNG often abused as a cipher, much to video game companies' chagrin.
 
9:30 AM
at least allow an A for effort ...
 
???
 
@forest The perks of multilingualism
 
ah
 
The second one had a funny comment I couldn't read in time
"Docker is a sweaty . . ."
 
At least, multilingualism when the character sets must be different.
 
10:37 AM
A spam a day keeps smoke away
 
14 messages moved to Chimney
 
11:09 AM
6 messages moved to Chimney
 
 
1 hour later…
12:33 PM
An actually new proposal would be feedback mandatory on upvotes. At least, I'm not aware of a previous one. But somehow, people do not seem to have much problems with upvotes to their posts...
 
True. The unexplained upvotes on my posts are driving me insane.
 
..... Actually....
I'm expecting a voting reversal on my SU account
 
100%?
 
Seriously, all the arguments in favor of "make comments on downvotes mandatory" apply to upvotes as well. I mean, an unexplained upvote - how do you know which part of your post was helpful?
 
Oh, this would be an awesome April 1st joke: switch up/down votes and score calculation for a day. So Jon Skeet will be at the bottom, probably q-banned ....
@AnneDaunted being realistic I consider every upvote on my posts to be an accident ...
 
404
12:52 PM
@JourneymanGeek The Community product team, per stackoverflow.blog/2019/08/20/meet-the-public-qa-team
Avoiding confusion with the Community Team.
 
@rene This would lead to riots
 
404
And conveniently reminding what we are.
 
@AnneDaunted probably less so than last year's redesign
 
404
@AnneDaunted My proposal would be mandatory votes with comments.
 
@JourneymanGeek No, this would be unprecedented. There would be countless new questions about the reputation.
Also keep in mind the people using their SO reputation in their applications.
 
404
12:56 PM
"What are the rules governing multiple accounts?" is now featured on SO... expecting WP:BEANS effect.
 
@AnneDaunted really? ;)
 
@rene I fear I would run out of popcorn too soon!
 
Yeah, it is better not to be picky on your diet on that day ;)
 
1:23 PM
I'd have a require-comment-downvote FR over the more sophisticated and depressing rants everyday.
 
@rene hmm... sounds like something that will be changed again soon, so not worth to remember. ;)
So there's also Private Q&A team?
And of course Teams Q&A team...
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard I think that is the Enterprise Q&A Team (EQAT)
 
1:39 PM
meh
DAG was way cooler name
and CHAOS
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Not if you're Australian.
 
The names become more and more boring over time. ;)
@Catija I'm not :D
Company should use names according to where the company is located. :)
Heck.... Microsoft invented a product with name that translates to the actual "F" word in Hebrew.
And I'm 10000% sure someone told them in advance before the product went live.
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard . . . Azure?
 
lol
 
1:42 PM
nah Azure can be translated to "help me"
("azor" which is close enough ;))
@M.A.R ^
 
Yeah, already reading that
 
oh @M.A this pings you too?
 
Yeah why not?
 
dunno dot
dot.MAR
MAR.NET
 
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Yeah we just changed the name from DAG (???) to Community or Public Q&A (interchangeable).
 
1:46 PM
@MeganRisdal so you really have more teams for the non public products?
 
(with corresponding names)
 
Enterprise and Teams teams.
 
I'm on the Team ... which one? ... Teams
 
Teams team is the best
 
1:53 PM
I was once on a Zorro team part of the Zorro project. When the real name was revealed shortly before go-live no one with the customer was impressed. When I returned 6 years later to that customer the employees asked me if I was going to work on (the) Zorro (team) again. The real name never caught on ....
 
It's now doubly amusing because Microsoft Teams is a Slack competitor. So if we made an integration for Microsoft Teams, the announcement could be "The Teams Team is working on a Teams integration for Teams."
 
DAG will stay forever too, in our hearts. :D
 
I still mentally call it DAG.
 
@Catija that is ... teamwork ...
 
1:55 PM
It's a struggle.
 
Being Dutch I say dag to DAG ...
 
@Catija SE has trouble naming things ;p
 
@rene A couple of the films I worked on used code names and now have different Titles... and there's a chunk of them I can't remember the actual name of now.
 
lol
@Catija probably true for us too
I mean, when I worked in a VFX studio ;p
 
404
Did "Everybody Wants Some!!" have a different code name?
 
2:07 PM
Yep!
 
404
What was it?
Or is that an NDA thing.
(My guess is that it couldn't be worse than the actual title...)
 
@404 "TWITA"... I think. An acronym for...That's what I'm talking about.
 
ooh
y'all did that too?
(actually I think the studios did)
 
Yeah.
@404 nah. It was even listed as that on IMDb.
And it's listed in the trivia section.
 
404
Ah, got it. A line from Dazed and Confused.
 
2:13 PM
Yep. "Spiritual sequel" and all.
 
404
Yesterday's news stories about UT-Austin appointment mostly picked another line from there.
 
Apropos, amusingly.
The RTF department wasn't nearly so news-worthy when I was there.
 
@Catija that can be good or bad ;p
 
He's teaching a class I would have (possibly did?) take... it would have been interesting, at the least.
 
The tag is really a bit of a meta tag, isn't it?
 
404
animuson wrote an extensive wiki for that tag :)
 
3:05 PM
Thanks!
 
404
3:46 PM
Complete list of Softwarerecs users with at least 1 CV review in the last 30 days:
RockPaperLizard last active Aug 22 (1 review)
Journeyman Geek last active Aug 15 (48 reviews)
Mawg last active July 31 (2 reviews)
Granted, there is little need for CV queue when the homepage works just as well.
 
@forest You cannot reflag messages you've already flagged
 
4:49 PM
Hey everyone. So a recent... thing on MathOverflow makes me wonder something.
I think sexually suggestive jokes on SE are harmful. (They're against the Code of Conduct, even.) But... how and why?
I brought up the topic of sexually suggestive jokes on the MO meta, and I was surprised by the number of responses essentially saying "I think they're not harmful; we should keep them."
 
@TannerSwett It's not appropriate in a professional context, and SE is supposed to maintain a professional atmosphere.
On a different note, they're often objectifying and offensive.
 
5:06 PM
Just to provide some context: MathOverflow used to be a separate site from Stack Exchange (search up "Stack Exchange 1.0") and used to actively resist attempts to merge with the modern Stack Exchange "2.0" network. In 2013, it was merged into the network, but granted considerable autonomy into the way it's run and moderated.
So I've often seen community members there try and resist what they see as attempts by Stack Exchange to rule over their site
 
Does it have a different CoC as well?
@TannerSwett that doesn't sound like the right response. It might be the outcome of the discussion but not based on that argument.
 
[points out analogy to Hong Kong]
 
uuuggghh
 
@rene What I'm trying to say is, there is a CoC, but some community members may be loath to uphold it since it was technically enacted by SE without the MO members explicitly agreeing to it
 
I get that Sonic.
I understand the dilemma
Thanks for clarifying.
@TannerSwett It is awful if your arguments seem to be neglected. I'm probably not the right person to give you the best advice but I still feel that you should be able to make at least the moderators there aware of your concern, despite the context Sonic painted. If you feel that even the moderators can't be trusted on this, I can only see that CM's chime in, either in private chat or by using the Contact us form.
For now let me ping @Tinkeringbell as I trust her in guiding you better (she is a moderator here).
 
404
5:32 PM
MO "autonomy" is kind of overstated.
While the site is a part of SE network, it has to play by its rules.
They do have the option to leave, and minor perks like not having ads.
But that does not change anything regarding CoC or whatever.
 
@rene Well, my arguments certainly weren't neglected. My post reached dozens of people on MO and led to the deletion of the entire question under consideration, as well as two additional meta posts discussing the situation.
 
404
Yep, mathoverflow.net/questions/1083/do-good-math-jokes-exist being 404 is one of the best things that happened on MO this year.
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog FWIW: I marked it as a duplicate because the side-effect is that it cleared your vote. Next time you misclick, retract the vote.
 
Anyway, I'm certainly aware that suggestive jokes aren't appropriate for a professional context... but I'd like to come to a better understanding of why.
 
404
It did have a comment "according to this thread, the answer is no". That one could be kept after deleting all the answers.
 
5:34 PM
Heh.
 
@Shog9 I never ended up noticing the mistake until you had already commented; I had put my phone in my pocket and proceeded to resume whatever it is that I was doing outside.
 
So pay more attention next time.
 
By the way, it may seem to an outsider that you closed my question just to get around the normal consensus against clearing close votes by immediately closing and reopening the question with the close vote.
But I understand, I'll be more careful.
 
I did look at some of the jokes and try to think: "If I were a woman, how would this joke make me feel?"
But I really just don't know.
 
The fact that there've been weeks of not-particularly-funny discussion regarding jokes now is probably sufficient reason to be rid of them.
 
5:39 PM
I suppose.
 
Given the precedent of deleting the SO question with jokes, I'd argue that these should be deleted as well.
And yes, I did archive the page to WayBackMachine to tide over the folks who fear it would be gone permanently.
 
404
Some kind of content is best individually hosted, with a single person deciding whether it stays or goes.
Otherwise the arguments will never end.
 
The precedent is meaningless; the reason behind the precedent is useful. Jokes on SO were also a huge, mostly-unfunny distraction. One that it took us far too long to get rid of.
 
My only fear is that the deletion of the joke will trigger fears within the MO community that SE is over-encroaching into the autonomy of the site. (e.g. Wikipedia Fram, 2019 Hong Kong protests, etc.)
 
This probably isn't the last time I'll see a sexually suggestive joke, though.
Suppose it's the future, I'm a diamond moderator on Aviation.SE or something, and I see such a joke.
What should I say? "I think this should be deleted for reasons I don't really understand"?
I mean, I guess in this particular case, it's be totally sufficient to say "I'm deleting this because it's against the code of conduct."
 
5:43 PM
"I think this should be deleted because I feel that this is objectifying to some people and only serves to detract them from the community at large."
 
Buuuut what I'm trying to ask is what the harm is.
What is objectifying, anyway?
I guess I should read about that myself.
Anyway...
I've noticed that out of the dozens of people who commented on my MO post, I didn't notice a single woman. Maybe there was at least one woman who commented, but out of the ones whose names seemed to indicate their gender, they all seemed to be men.
If MO is set up in a way that drives away women, that's a major problem.
 
@TannerSwett Probably because they've all been turned away from the site already.
 
@TannerSwett yes, I agree that a site that is not being inclusive is a problem.
 
@rene Sorry, I was eating a pancake. Am I still needed?
 
Hmm, I like pancake too ...
You might go over the transcript a bit and see if you have anything to add to the concern raised by @TannerSwett
 
5:55 PM
@Tinkeringbell I thought you preferred stroopwafels over pancakes...
 
@rene I never said I liked it. Just that I was eating one. :p
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I do. Thanks for remembering correctly! :D
@rene Will do :)
 
@Tinkeringbell yeah, if we don't eat we die, so if nothing else is on the menu, pancake it is ;)
 
@rene It's below tulip bulbs on the list ;)
 
lol
 
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