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02:00 - 14:0014:00 - 00:00

2:05 AM
Very sleepy Monday morning
2:22 AM
You're always sleepy. ;p
Get a more interesting job! Like professional firecracker juggler!
He has said that so often that a job was created with him in mind.
Oh my god if I could get paid to sleep...
3:23 AM
I'm not a morning person :(
But there's no night shift for programmer...
3:49 AM
Jeff Atwood just now declares that the SE engine will never be open-sourced.
I thought he doesn't work there anymore? How would he have any say?
He's the co-founder
Well that's obnoxious.
Also, he made this declaration a long time ago; the answer was just never edited.
Well I'll be sure to put a bounty on the source code whenever I get the time.
3:52 AM
I'm sure he signs in on occasion and goes through and reads his old posts, and noticed this out-of-date one.
Because screw that hypocrisy.
Jeff wanted it to be open-source, but Joel was against it, and since Joel stayed on as CEO it went according to his wish. (But that's an odd time to edit it, since a new CEO is on the horizon.)
Well hopefully the new CEO will be better.
4:45 AM
1 hour later…
6:08 AM
@forest here's the funny thing. The source code probably isn't important
Someone could probably whip up something with the same featureset, maybe even better in a month
Also hypocrasy dosen't mean what you think it means
No one ever promised to open source any part of SE
And the secret sauce isn't the platform, its the culture and community
6:41 AM
@rene Got that one, and a few more ;)
@JourneymanGeek The hypocrisy is having a website for programmers powered by the community but keeping it closed source. github has the same problem.
Morning :)
(and that's why i don't like github either)
@forest There's no hypocrisy there... programmers shouldn't touch a website for programmers :P Imagine all the fights!
6:43 AM
@forest Rollback wars, but with git commits...
It would be a nightmare if they opened write access up to everyone. :P
@forest But if we're not going to get write access, then what's the point in open sourcing stuff? We can already write feature requests... Doesn't really matter much then if we provide the code or not.
@Tinkeringbell Well 99.9999% of projects don't give everyone write access.
You send a pull request etc but you can't get a commit applied on your own.
@forest So you get basically the same sort of state as MSE: people write features/feature requests then have to wait forever or hear it's not going to happen.
At least feature requests on MSE can be closed as dupes, pull requests can't (as far as I'm aware).
I sincerely wouldn't want to the be the dev that has to deal with an infinity of pull requests 'fixing' downvotes :P
Linux Foundation deals with it very well.
6:47 AM
Judging from the Data Explorer, making it open source won't improve wait times.
Same with lots of RedHat projects like QEMU.
@Tinkeringbell thanks, and good morning!
@forest Still... those seem different from SE/SO, as they're not 'websites for programmers'
7:04 AM
7:24 AM
nothing to start monday morning like power surge hardware failure
@forest I mean, they're selling access to it for lots of $. It's a proprietary software product like any other
same with github
They should be making money through services, not software.
E.g. Teams and the like.
They're currently doing both though
Corporate greed limiting access to knowledge and quality.
It's the problem with capitalism.
Thats a bit disingenous unless you think that any software that isn't open source is greedy
Depends on the software.
7:29 AM
My company doesn't make its ERP software open source even though other people could use it
@forest ..Do you open source every single piece of code you write?
Well, any code I actually distribute. There's some stuff I use personally which isn't open but I'd open it if someone asked me (it's the kind of thing that's just too specific to my system to be really useful to others without heavy modifications).
So, if you started a software company, you'd immediately release the source code?
There are a lot of costs involved with open sourcing production-ready code
Most of the code I deal with is GPL.
But yes, every software product I've written or been involved in has been open source. I've never willingly held back any code that I distribute. I'm not a hypocrite. :p
99% of the code I write is closed source
My employer doesn't open source code, and that's not a decision I could make for them
7:35 AM
My first project had an open source part, and a closed source part. That was particularly annoying.
That's too bad. It means that, when your company is long gone, the benefits you've provided for mankind and the knowledge you've gained will have died with it.
I write code in exchange for €
So do I.
Unless you open source it when the company dies... and that assumes anyone wants to use software that's been abandoned for years anyway
My private stuff e.g answers on SO are obviously open source, and so is other stuff I do online in my free time
7:36 AM
@Rob People never use abandoned software as-is, but I benefit regularly from ancient software. Sometimes I even have to track down the original authors and devs and trace their new email addresses or phone numbers and ask them.
sides, getting our tangled mess of ERP into a state where it could be functionally released as open source would be a lot of dev hours for no direct € gain for the company
Every once in a while they reply to me and upload source from an old floppy.
good luck arguing that
@forest That sounds almost creepy. I really do hope I don't get any calls 15 years from now! I won't even remember what I did to begin with ;)
I'm of the opinion that, when a company shuts down or discontinues a product, it should at the very least release the source code. I mean, there's code out there used for embedded systems that is no longer supported but which is still super useful.
@Tinkeringbell Nah. Usually the people I talk to are just surprised.
7:38 AM
I can barely recall code I wrote a year ago
I can barely recall code I wrote a day ago
@JNat cross site spammer for your gentle care. Thanks!
@Rob Well, I don't have to do that, I don't code on Sundays ;)
@ShadowWizard Meta one is already nuked ;)
(I'm one of those "information is sacred" types :p)
@forest Which is okay, but doesn't mean SO should open up their source code right now just so you can go digging around :P
There's plenty of other 'information' out there, just go have fun with that ;)
7:40 AM
Well all it means is that, if I ever do get the source code, it'll be because someone I know is trading it with other trees in the underground (though I highly doubt anyone would trade something as weird as SE source code).
I mean, if you're a software company, your software is your product. You don't give your product away for free usually
Not that I'd waste anything valuable just to get SE code, of course.
That'd be pretty bad use of the shareholders money
@Magisch I disagree. I think support should be the product.
@forest And then, knowing a bit about you and your profession/interests, there will be another 1 rep user running around with diamonds ;)
7:41 AM
Bug fixes, customer support, contractually developed features.
Some companies do that. Some sell the product on top of that
as long as people pay for the product, people will not give it away for free
The companies which don't do that are the ones who generally release poor quality products and need to put more money into advertising and PR than software.
Compare that to a fortune 500 like RedHat, where 99.999% is FOSS.
microsoft barely releases any of its source code, and is one of the most profitable companies in the world
neither apple
Apple actually releases the majority of its source.
And Microsoft is open sourcing more and more of their software every day.
@Tinkeringbell cheers!
7:43 AM
Plus, Windows source trees are already in the hands of hackers (yes, even 10), so it's not like their hiding it is helping their own users.
Also, a lot of Microsoft's income comes from services, not software.
I mean, now, yeah. But what made them successful was their software, not services
They became successful in a different era.
Back when open source was in its infancy.
No one knew how to collaborate or benefit from FOSS back then.
I mean, Linux is currently the most used OS in the entire world.
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog umm...... no? It was officially never going to be open sourced for years, said many times by several high ranked SE staff.
I mean, companies that rely on closed infrastructure and then selling temporary access are wildly profitable
@Magisch But have you taken into account those which aren't?
Most companies that sell software do horribly.
7:47 AM
e.g. John Deere with their tractors you have to pay markup to service, or office 365, or game companies with GaaS
I assume people kept asking him when the SO engine will be open sourced, pointing to that answer, so Jeff edited it to stop being harassed about it.
you can't deny a large chunk of their profits is due to closed infrastructure
@Magisch Sure, and I'm not saying that closed source can never be profitable, but it's harmful in the long run, and it results in competing with advertisers, not with other software companies. If a company can't compete based on ingenuity, it shouldn't be in the market. If a company has to hide behind the law, it's not a very clever company.
And that's what we see when China and France routinely steal IP.
Suing the competition out of the market and out advertising / out lawyering is a viable business practice
@forest Then what are you still doing here? :P Just lobbying for open sourcing the entire thing? :)
7:48 AM
see epic games rn
I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work it takes to keep code open sourced @forest
It isn't a matter of pushing to github and being done with it
@Tinkeringbell I was hired by experts-exchange to steal your source code^U dunno just hanging out I guess.
@Rob ^^ That
@Rob Oh, why not? There's no need to create an entire community just for something to be open source. Look at how OpenSolaris prospered before Oracle bought it. All they did was release it in one big dump.
Because pushing a jumbled mess to a repository doesn't help anyone
7:50 AM
Sounds like it's more of a matter of devs being embarrassed then?
I mean, who cares if it's a mess?
@forest There's... a whole lot of problems, especially if there's a part of source code that you're making money with (or planning on making money with).
@Tinkeringbell Well like I said, money should come from a service.
And then there's security. You should know about that more than me, but it's not easy.
Well, there are security concerns to be taken into account. There are also concerns about copyright from other companies
Security is something that can improve when something is open.
7:51 AM
Not to mention, there are companies who would refuse to use an open source product, so you'd need to check your contracts
for most commercial software, security by obscurity is a part of the deal
@Rob They usually refuse if it's GPL.
unreliable or not
You'd be shocked how few people write best practice secure code
@Magisch And that's why I still make money. :P
Sure it can improve. But it can also cost you your company. Not saying security by obscurity is the way to go, but blindly pushing a repo is a bad idea
7:52 AM
You'd be shocked how few people care to begin with
@Rob Someone here told me that there might be customer data hardcoded in the source (which I find hard to believe), and used that as an excuse.
@forest No, many companies are against it because they believe security by obscurity is a thing. And they refuse to upload sensitive data to projects who have published their source
@Rob Like I said, those companies are the ones I make money off of.
For instance if you're supporting a jumbled mess of daisy chained vba macros written by someone in production who was learning VBA as he did this, and those somehow became mission critical and are unfeasible to replace at the moment
They may believe it, but they always get screwed in the end.
7:53 AM
Most of the business world runs on infra like this
I miss the days before high-level languages. :(
Back when people actually knew how to program.
Ah, the days of endless segmentation faults and buffer overrun vulnerabilities ;)
The days before anyone even cared about security lol
@forest :( I do know how to program!
@Tinkeringbell You're part of the 1% then.
7:54 AM
@forest We still had BASIC at that time...
Might just be me, but software is far more stable that it used to be
But what happens if I give you a system with 48 KiB of memory and ask you to develop a fully featured operating system? :P
Thats just gatekeeping
Despite the 'bad' programmers apparently
even people using very high level languages are real programmers
7:55 AM
@Rob Well software is more complicated now too.
and not only 1% of programmers can code, thats ridiculous
@forest I'd say no, because there's no point restricting yourself needlessly, unless you're doing it for fun. I'd say most devs could do it, if they did a bit of research
@forest I've also studied archaeology. I can dig up how to do that.
@forest Yes, so, more complicated and more stable = worse programmers?
7:56 AM
@Rob Nah, the issue is that more people are drawn to the profession.
"When you were done with your application, here's how you closed out of it:" [powers off, powers on]
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Hey back then turning the system off and on was instant! A Spectrum 128 took... like 0.5 seconds to power up.
more coders are needed because code does more things for us
@forest Yeah, he mentions that in the very beginning
hence more people are drawn to the profession
7:57 AM
"Watch how quickly I can reboot a Commodore 64"
@Magisch It's all about outsourcing to the cheapest programmers.
@Magisch drawn to/drawn into
Those cheap programmers don't get the education they need.
I mean India still uses TurboC++ to teach C++!
Back from when C++ was a mere extension of C!
They literally need to run it on DOS machines.
Look also at the pay inequality.
It causes outsourcing to result in someone needing to write a lot of crappy code to make a living, when in other countries, people need to write much less, but better.
@forest No? I've seen them use modern VS.
pay inequality has always been a thing ever
7:59 AM
@Magisch Back when programming was far more niche, too few people were in the profession for pay inequality to really be a thing.
Or even gender inequality
Hell, I make 40k€ a year, that'd be low if I lived in the US
Cool, we've went from discussing open source stuff to complaining about who programs ;)
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Back then, computers were "nerd things", before that was cool. Girls didn't like to associate themselves with something that lame.
Thats again just gatekeeping
8:00 AM
Nowadays it's something that interests everyone (well, more or less), so now gender equality is on our radar.
@Tinkeringbell You mean, complaining about closed source to complaining about programmers. :P
@forest No, I meant the exact opposite. It was so niche that it was more equal at that time, but as computers became more commonplace, it became weighted towards males.
@forest Nah, it's definitely about 'who' programs ;)
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Oh I see what you mean.
I find this notion that most programmers are bad at it pretty arrogant
It's objectively correct if you look at studies that analyze code quality.
It's especially true when it comes to security or unicode support.
8:02 AM
What is and isn't bad isn't objectively measureable, it's determined by lots of things, including what specifically the employer needs from someone
Note: I don't consider myself one of the "few programmers who doesn't suck".
If I need a quick setup for something the person who does it "right" is not my best choice
@Magisch It's measured by looking at objective standards for code quality.
Errors per line of code, efficiency, knowledge of constructs, etc.
@Magisch Yeah that's true. That's why outsourcing is a thing.
Sadly a "quick setup" often ends up becoming "production product".
Look at what happened to Intel when they outsourced their CSME team to Israel before MEv11. They switched from ThreadX managed in-house by professionals to Minix using modules in Java, and boom vulnerabilities and bugs galore.
I'm sure they rationalized it as needing nothing more than a quick hack, too.
But look how fast AMD stock went up after some of the more PR-worthy debacles. :P
Now, one thing I will say about modern programming practices is that we've become a lot better at working as a team and writing manageable code.
Anyway, I gotta go get some rest. Been up too long. o/
8:33 AM
Ah ... The Barbecue Chef. Step 1: Buy a Barbeque. Step 2: Cook something on it. Step 3: Serve it to your guests. Step 4: You are a Chef.
Like the Computer Programmer at many places. Step 1: Get hired. Step 2: Write a program. Step 3: Now your a Coder, a Programmer; some kind of Rembrandt.
@Rob I still refuse to call anyone that uses their barbeques for veggies a chef.
That's our point (mine, and what was written a few comments above).
@Rob There's ... a bit of a thing though. There's a lot of things that can either be done as a hobby or professionally. I do share the opinion that a professional programmer should have some qualifications, know about standards and stuff... like a professional fisherman or beautician. That doesn't mean though that people can't fish or use make-up without those licenses, though they perhaps should not work as professionals.
@Rob sometimes it's. 1. Get hired for something unrelated, 2. "I could automate this", 3. Automate it, 4. "You know about computers, why don't you do this for the other processes as well", 5. You're now a software developer
When I still studied archaeology, some 'professional' archaeologist used to call the people that came over to help with metal detectors 'detector-amateurs' or 'amateur-archaeologists', because those people never had a formal (university level) education.

It's strange, and it was not fair to the qualities of those people either: they taught me a lot about digging, and especially about using metal detectors and treating metal finds. In a way, they were their own kind of specialists. Yet they were always doomed to be looked down upon by the more snobby people among the archeaologists.
There's a lot you can do just for fun, or voluntarily, that doesn't require a professional education.
8:44 AM
Operating a Metal Detector (or Ground Radar) can be quite technologically challenging. Understanding Archaeology is something entirely different.
@Rob True, but it's not something you need a university degree for to be useful.
Or to be considered capable of doing so.
There something about being a cook for others, or writing programs for other people's computers that differs from someone doing their own makeup and it's not so much whom has to look at it but more whom pays the price for the mistakes.
@Rob How do you know all those examples there did their own makeup?
I'm sure if you look through enough of those photos you can find one hit with no people in the image, in that case it's arguably a certainty.
There is a lot of gatekeeping everywhere
If you base your whole identity on something, it becomes tempting to elevate yourself above others for it
8:51 AM
@Magisch Sure, and in places it's necessary. I don't want my doctor to not have been through a process of gatekeeping!
And my doctor is right to be very proud of having passed all those gates.
And to demand others pass those gates as well, and perhaps even more, as medicine keeps getting more and more complicated
Depends on the topic and how you look at it, I guess
@Magisch I guess so. But gatekeeping isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as everyone gets a fair chance at passing the gate.
don't think there's ever been a situation where chances have been equal, in any gate ever
@Magisch Of course not... perhaps I should've switched out 'chance' for 'an attempt'
Some gates just aren't feasible for people.
I think it needs to be necessary to be a reasonable gate
Sure, doctors or engineers probably need a lot of qualifications to be let loose on the world. Some gatekeeping is just obnoxious and unnecessary though, e.g. in video games
8:58 AM
Some gates are biased towards specific people
@Magisch There's gates in video games? Are we talking about the same kinds of gates?
Like easy vs. expert mode or something?
intellectual gatekeeping
"You're not a real fan of this until..."
@Magisch Oh, that's a different kind of 'gatekeeping'. Though we were talking about programmers requiring some kind of education, not about online bullies ;)
Bleeds over into each other though
"You're not a real programmer until <some irrelevant bs>"
@Magisch Oh, well... that's where you have to ask what 'real' means. Is it someone capable of doing it professionally, or do we count people doing it just for fun? In case of the fun, there's not much need for gatekeeping.
9:08 AM
on another note: sometimes I'm glad for the 3 flag r/a deletion on the workplace
From what I've seen there, the site really needs it from time to time :) I can understand that
In the old, old, days you had to write the program correctly and save your work to cassette tape before running it in case it went to HCF. Nowadays it's easy enough to cobble something together and send it to millions of people, it may even seem to work fine for years. --- But the truth is that there's a bug somewhere, something doesn't work properly, and it ends up costing 10's of thousands of dollars (like what happened last week).
@Rob Still, there could've been bugs in those programs too. I think we're also discounting the fact that the applications people are currently building are getting more and more complex, so of course there's more room for errors too. And I don't know about you, but I've definitely had to restart VMs or sessions because I reached a HCF like state when developing ;)
Does that make me a worthless programmer?
Yup, just like the rest of us.
9:18 AM
I have that distinction directly in front of me. One of my projects is a driver for a hand scanner in C, there is little to no room for error in that code
meanwhile my other stuff is a web app with frameworks, display bugs, synchronicity issues, concurrency, web workers and all that jazz. The room for error and consequently the amount of errors I make and have to fix is higher
That doesn't make me a horrible dev imo. I can write clean C if I have to
> Manager: How did Joe enter to my office?!
> Programmer: Oops! Sorry, bug in hand scanner.
It would be great if you could wear a particular ring on a particular finger and it would grant you access.
by hand scanner I mean a handheld barcode scanner
@Rob I'm not fond of access jewelry. I already keep forgetting a badge (or worse, losing it), don't make it even smaller!
If would be great if you could scan a particular bar code and then the next item you scan would be removed from inventory.
9:22 AM
@Bart Hey! Nice to see you here again. How terrible is your code doing these days?
It is doing surprisingly well, which is highly suspicious.
None of our experience issues have come back to me yet ...
@Tinkeringbell They did make it smaller, called it a MicroChip and inject it under your skin, now you (probably) can't lose it.
@Bart That sounds nerve-wrecking :P
@Rob I think I might be a bit too squeamish for an implant though...
@Tinkeringbell first few days were indeed not pleasant. Particularly because the event location has non-flexible opening hours, and the experience is fully booked. So if something is fucked, so are the visitors for that day. :D But so far so good.
@Bart Nice! :) I guess that makes you and your team real programmers then, according to the discussion above :P
9:37 AM
Could ask for fingerprint or retinal scanner, like my phone has (20 years ago no one thought they'd say that, not even on Star Trek).
@Rob Yeah, and then one colleague has the cold or flu and the entire office is out of runnig the next week because they didn't wash hands. I prefer swiping a badge ;)
@Tinkeringbell we only have visitors occasionally running into walls and stuff. VR is hard :p
@Bart Hahaha that almost sounds like it's more funny to watch than the actual VR :P
They are all instructed not to run, and not to go through virtual objects. And they've signed a waiver. So yeah, as long as they don't run into sensitive equipment ... :D
Ooh so thats why you're glasses
You're VR glasses!
9:42 AM
I was glasses wayyyy before VR glasses, but I do indeed often have an HMD on instead
I actually hope VR does not become the next big thing, because I can't participate
Why not?
Every form of VR I've tried gives me a mirgraine after minutes of use
Hmm, okay, that's nasty. (I have migraines myself, so I get that). Did you try full-body VR before? In our system you're in full control of all your movements, so no weird VR motion-sickness stuff.
Havent tried that yet, but I also get migraine inducing motion sickness from some games' lack of FOV
It's partly because I hardly have any depth perception
9:49 AM
:( That's unfortunate. I won't make you our guinea pig, but I'm still curious how you'd respond :D We have plenty of people come by who had bad VR experiences and who loved our stuff in the end.
That's what's cool about my phone, XR Goggles. It can do VR, AR, or XR; so you can see where you are going IRL.
I write print("Hello, World"), therefore I'm a programmer.
usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/5/../../../x86_64-linux-gnu/crt1.o: In function `_start':
(.text+0x20): undefined reference to `main'
collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
10:14 AM
Oh hey we have two @Rob's now... so confusing.... :P
10:40 AM
@ShadowWizard If you can't tell the difference between those two avatars, you need glasses :)
Try the Dr. Who - Time Vortex game. 5 versions available for desktop/cellphone (no download) or 4 other downloadable versions depending on which VR headset you have. I just tried the desktop version on my phone, it works fairly well. Written by the BBC.
@Tink, he has gleads instead.
@Tinkeringbell nah, I don't need @Bart :D
@Rob Woah, terrible pun.
@Bart Don't take him serious :) You're always welcome here :D
we all need more bart
10:46 AM
Sadly, there's a limit to what images we can post; this should be OK. Here is ShadowWizard wearing his glasses:
11:13 AM
Would a Moderator for Meta consider moving this question to an answer for where it was marked as a duplicate? (If that's possible).
11:29 AM
@ShadowWizard gone
@Rob I would love to consider it, but I don't even think I can do that...
11:47 AM
@Rob there's no way to do that
11:57 AM
@JNat thanks!
@JourneymanGeek mods can't merge questions anymore?
Pretty sure I saw it done in the past.
@Bart OK, I need you!
@ShadowWizard Yes, but merging questions doesn't make one question an answer to the other ;-)
I left a comment for the OP, maybe they'll repost :)
@ShadowWizard we can't convert questions to answers
@Tinkeringbell oh, true.
@JourneymanGeek oh, true.
12:25 PM
One of the nice things about (still) having a low rep sock here
Suggested edits!
@Aibobot What did you suggest? :)
Q: Will Stack Overflow's engine be (someday, or ever) open sourced?

GravitonWill Stack Overflow's engine become open source one day? Warning: Some of the answers to this question no longer apply to the current situation. Hosted StackExchange is no more, for example.

erf, missing a space - but updated the fact that SE has a enterprise product, anf teams, which was essentially what Hosted SE was
I'm surprised no one here noticed
Come to think of it, I haven't got any responses for mod swag 🙃
12:30 PM
@NoDistractionWizard I think that might be delayed as they switched vendors?
IDK how long ._.
Ah, yeah, I remember they said about switching vendors.
amongst other things.
@Aibobot I thought the rumours where they would be sending things again by now. goes to check
I would probably have forgotten about it if Rob didn't mention about converting the "Thank You" swag question ._.
@Tinkeringbell I might have missed it ;p
12:39 PM
@Aibobot I didn't :P
1:03 PM
I still didn't get my stuff-a-way swag
sad cactus
@Magisch Well, that was on-hold until after vendor switching was complete too, right?
probably yea
Stuff a way swag was the old vendor no?
do have my path of exile hoodie now though
although thats a irresponsible use of my money, but I love the hoodie nonetheless
@JourneymanGeek I was one of the people that did not recieve the email
@JourneymanGeek Yep :) but see link above, there were a few people that missed the e-mail, that were promised swag as soon as the switch would be complete
@ShadowWizard meta.stackexchange.com/a/328425/369802 < Tahdah, it worked. They even were so nice to clean up their own question :)
1:08 PM
I have an Ingress hoodie. By an online unlucky draw. From Japan.
I got the path of exile hoodie from one of the supporter packs
which are really expensive as far as microtransactions in video games are usually concerned
They say... "Once in a time, enjoy the money you currently have"...
@Tinkeringbell ahhhhh
@Tinkeringbell low tech content curation
@Magisch that's a lot of words for moderators ;p
cause that's a good chunk of why we actually have mods
1:21 PM
"Hello, this is MSE moderators team. Please post an answer on [this question] instead unless you want to get su...rprise!"
Oh, great... cannot connect to an online game's server due to congested connections, but there's a time-limited event right now...
I noticed "short" links of the format businessname.page.link/foo
Apparently by Google?
But finding anything relevant with the search for page.link is really hard.
> Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
Not very professional-looking title of the page.
That's Gogole for you...
1:37 PM
WhoIs confirms page.link is owned by Google.
google is a non uniform sprawling mess by now
I thought they'd have some information about how to use this shortener instead of 404... Like now-defunct goo.gl has
@VoteDukakis that's not short.... looks like some internal joke to me.
(So only some relevant Google employees have chance to know.)
The link I saw was a working short link (redirected to a page), I didn't post it here because it's too close to home.
brancher.page.link/eEUND is another one, found with the search site:page.link
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